[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda
   |.freedesktop.org|tion.org

--- Comment #52 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Please add keyword needsUXEval and CC
libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org if input from UX is needed.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #51 from bchemnet  ---
William - I can confirm that the font size issue seems to have disappeared when
I switched to XFCE 4.14.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org
   Priority|low |high

--- Comment #50 from Xisco Faulí  ---
Changing enhancement priority to 'high' since the number of people in CC is
higher than 20

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #49 from William Gathoye  ---
Hi bchemnet,

I assume you are still using XFCE 4.12 based on GTK2? Since the GTK2 VCL
toolkit is deprecated for LibreOffice, TDF won't maintain this old branch.
Please migrate to the GTK3 toolkit instead.

Good news ! XFCE 4.14 based on GTK3 has been released some times ago. Just
install it from the sid or backports repo and please let us know if this helps.

Regards,

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #48 from bchemnet  ---
I recently updated from 6.1.4 to 6.3 rc2 (Debian XFCE).  Now my formula bar
font appears to be ~12 point, considerably larger than the previous version.

And while I completely understand why the comments above are asking for a
larger font, I actually now want my old style back, as the new font and size
appears ugly on my screen.  As far as I can tell, it is *not* pulling the
information from my system UI in any way, as it matches nothing else in my
system display nor in the Libreoffice interface.

Could we please just have the option to set the font & size of this bar?  Even
if no other scaling is implemented (I understand the arguments against it
above), is there a technical reason that this cannot be user set in isolation? 
Obviously it can be changed at some stage during software build, so where
exactly is it being set?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #47 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Alex ARNAUD from comment #46)
> This regression highly impact accessibility because making user able to
> increase size of the interface was a great advantage of LibreOffice compared
> to Microsoft Office. Also as I understand, LibreOffice design team seems to
> want to make LibreOffice customisable and adaptable to the user needs.

@Alex, this was a conscious developer decision to prune code of an
unsupportable feature--in effect for the 5.3, 5.4, 6.0, 6.1, 6.2 and now 6.3
major releases. 
We can not reasonably now call it a regression as it is long gone.

Yes it would be a good enhancement, and worth reimplementing. And, yes it could
be considered an Assistive Technology for our low vision users, but best done
in context with other needed improvements (like bug 105610).

Refactoring to reimplement UI scaling in a modern fashion (with HiDPI and
render engine support) would be a substantial development effort.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

Alex ARNAUD  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||accessibility
 CC||alexarn...@hypra.fr

--- Comment #46 from Alex ARNAUD  ---
This regression highly impact accessibility because making user able to
increase size of the interface was a great advantage of LibreOffice compared to
Microsoft Office. Also as I understand, LibreOffice design team seems to want
to make LibreOffice customisable and adaptable to the user needs.

Best regards,
Alex.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #45 from Roger  ---
Windows UI scaling is neither clean nor helpful; it enlarges EVERYTHING, not
just the App UI. Even if I do enlarge the fonts alone (which is possible in the
OS), that enlarges ALL the fonts, not just the font of the formula bar (which
is truly what I need; 9-pt Segoe UI ... &*^*@#$%^!!!).

Currently I'm using a 3rd party utility (from Wintools) to change a category of
fonts (this has some side effects, which I can live with) to make the formula
bar usable.

The ability to scale the UI separately from the data display, which I
understand went away for reasons, was a highly useful setting, and I'd
appreciate it being returned to us users in some way, shape, or form.

I think scaling should be pursued as a set of settings. Menu, toolbars, input
boxes, default font sizes, and so forth. In fact, if LO copied Excel's choice,
that the default font size for a new spreadsheet is the default input font
size, that wouldn't be horrid.

Thanks for all your work in development, btw; don't want to minimize that.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #44 from Stefano  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #43)
> [..] restoring it requires NEW development effort.

Given the number of discussions scattered in the forums, and bug report
duplicates here, all pointing in this direction, it seems clear that many
people are affected by the issue.

The question is: given the large number of cases and arguments provided by
users, would a new development effort be worth?

(I would argue that's the case)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #43 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Yury from comment #42)
> My apologies, but do the decision-makers even understand the issue raised
> here (and in #67372)?? For I, for example, did not understand at all the
> reason for closing #67372 (which, incidentally, is actually NOT a duplicate
> of this #101646), and I do not actually understand the argumentation for
> these options removal.
>...

bug 67373 was dragged out of WFM status for a user complaining of Calc input
line font size--that is exactly bug 106521 already dup'd here. As noted in
#67372 refactoring needed to restore UI control to scale menus and dialogs
independent of OS/DE control is a substantial undertaking. It was stripped out
to support OS/DE control needed for emerging DE (Waynland, gtk3, etc) as well
as for HiDPI; restoring it requires NEW development effort.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #42 from Yury  ---
My apologies, but do the decision-makers even understand the issue raised here
(and in #67372)?? For I, for example, did not understand at all the reason for
closing #67372 (which, incidentally, is actually NOT a duplicate of this
#101646), and I do not actually understand the argumentation for these options
removal.

I *believe* the end-user *might* "legitimately" wish to independently change UI
font face AND UI font size AND the scale of UI elements, to better suite one's
current requirements on application *usability*.

The bulk of actual work is done in applications, not in desktop environments.
And even applications may differ w/r to their requirements for the text
display. 

When I'm working with a text or a diagram, I don't even get to see the desktop
space, as the app's space is maximised. The OOO is multi-platform, I might work
as a guest, with a portable installation, etc.

Now, one actually must have legible text in Writer/Draw menus and dialogs, as
those are used frequently, as opposite to, say, web browser. (and no, countless
toolbars or whatever they are called now--stripes? ribbons? do not decisively
help here; I have many of those switched on, but only for addons; BTW, new LO
icons are rather indistinguishable, both from each other and from background)

Also, in OOO you might want to make the graphic parts of dialogs (say, color or
hatching samples) bigger, without tying those changes to the text size. Or you
might want different UI font face and/or size. And you might want to make those
changes just for the brief period, e.g., for the screen-cast, or when your eyes
are tired, or when you work in sub-optimal lighting conditions, etc.

Now, I'm a OOO user with about 20 years of experience, principally doing lots
of text with graphics. But I do not participate in the OOO development. Does my
opinion actually count?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com

--- Comment #41 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 67372 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

Stefano  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67
   ||372

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #40 from unresponsive  ---
The power of this scaling feature to me is that you can move between any
system/display and with one simple setting all your documents now display in a
standard way with all your other systems/displays.   The coding might have been
a compromise, but it’s worth a compromise.  Kudos to the guys that originally
saw the value of this and got it done and made it work so well for so long. 
Job well done.

Frustration makes the wine taste sweetest, the truth most bitter.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #39 from alister.h...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #36)
> (In reply to Spiros Georgaras from comment #35)
> > LO font size is currently smaller that my desktop font size (see ss)
> 
> That's clearly NOTOURBUG, please check your theme. I'm running LXQt with
> three places to tweak the font: qt5,qt4,LX, where qt4 is responsible for the
> kde4 variant of LibreOffice (we do not have a Qt5 binding yet).

So Libreoffice is supposed to follow the system font size properly? Is this
just with the "kde version"? I use the gtk2 "version". It does not work
properly - fonts in some places are a very different size to others. It is most
noticeable with a very low dpi and huge fonts (try setting your display dpi to
21 and your gtk font size to 52 to compensate). It almost seems like the dpi is
only being taken into account in some places but not others.
This has caused desperate people to resort to workarounds like this:
https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/71652/how-to-change-font-size-for-dialogs-not-just-menus/

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

Jay Xu  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||mustan...@gmail.com

--- Comment #38 from Jay Xu  ---
Created attachment 137655
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=137655=edit
ugly huge-font-ui on macos

Pls recover this feature~ You can find how ugly it is on my macos due to the
huge font size

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #37 from Spiros Georgaras  ---
It looks like you are right!!!

and thank you for your reply; it pointed me to the right direction!!!

I installed lxappearance, but changing the font with it made no difference...
But then, when i changed the font form xfce native app, LO font changed too!!!

So, yes "That's clearly NOTOURBUG"

Sorry for the noise...

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #36 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Spiros Georgaras from comment #35)
> LO font size is currently smaller that my desktop font size (see ss)

That's clearly NOTOURBUG, please check your theme. I'm running LXQt with three
places to tweak the font: qt5,qt4,LX, where qt4 is responsible for the kde4
variant of LibreOffice (we do not have a Qt5 binding yet).

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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--- Comment #35 from Spiros Georgaras  ---
Hi guys,

I understand that this was causing problems, because of its poor
implementation, but...

Please, please, please, re-implement it!!!

LO font size is currently smaller that my desktop font size (see ss)

The font size difference is not that great, but it is enough to bother my aging
eyes :-(

I'm on a manjaro xfce linux box, running fresh

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

Spiros Georgaras  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||s...@hellug.gr

--- Comment #34 from Spiros Georgaras  ---
Created attachment 134865
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=134865=edit
manjaro xfce linux font size difference

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #33 from André Brait  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #32)
> (In reply to André Brait from comment #31)
> > My real issue is the icons, though. They look just broken.
> 
> Under Tools > Options > View you can control the icon size.

I've tried that. The icons just look broken in different sizes. I'll post a
screenshot as soon as I can get my hands on a live distro with 5.3.x. Kinda
like if they had been upscaled by a factor of 1.5 using nearest neighborhood
but in a wrong manner.

In 5.2, they look normal.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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--- Comment #32 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to André Brait from comment #31)
> My real issue is the icons, though. They look just broken.

Under Tools > Options > View you can control the icon size.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #31 from André Brait  ---
Adding to the cc list as well.

This annoys a lot. It's ok since I use Debian and we're still using the 5.2
branch, but when I use other distros that have the 5.3 branch it's unusable.

My real issue is the icons, though. They look just broken.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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Oliver Brinzing  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||oliver.brinz...@gmx.de

--- Comment #30 from Oliver Brinzing  ---
adding me cc

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #27 from walttheboss  ---
I am a teacher of Computer applications.  We use a very large variety of
computers (desktops, laptops, virtual machines).  The ability for students to
work together is greatly enhanced by scaling.  They can see each others
formulas so much better. 

I am now forced to revert to 5.2 till this is solved.

PLEASE bring back the Scaling option in the UI as it is a fantastic feature.

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--- Comment #29 from walttheboss  ---
I apologize profusely.  Sorry for triple post. My browser kept giving me an
nginx error so I thought this was not posting.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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--- Comment #28 from walttheboss  ---
I am a teacher of Computer applications.  We use a very large variety of
computers (desktops, laptops, virtual machines).  The ability for students to
work together is greatly enhanced by scaling.  They can see each others
formulas so much better. 

I am now forced to revert to 5.2 till this is solved.

PLEASE bring back the Scaling option in the UI as it is a fantastic feature.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #25 from walttheboss  ---
I am a teacher of Computer applications.  We use a very large variety of
computers (desktops, laptops, virtual machines).  The ability for students to
work together is greatly enhanced by scaling.  They can see each others
formulas so much better. 

I am now forced to revert to 5.2 till this is solved.

PLEASE bring back the Scaling option in the UI as it is a fantastic feature.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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--- Comment #26 from walttheboss  ---
I am a teacher of Computer applications.  We use a very large variety of
computers (desktops, laptops, virtual machines).  The ability for students to
work together is greatly enhanced by scaling.  They can see each others
formulas so much better. 

I am now forced to revert to 5.2 till this is solved.

PLEASE bring back the Scaling option in the UI as it is a fantastic feature.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||van...@gmx.net

--- Comment #24 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 106521 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #23 from Matt K.  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #9)
> No, removing the scaling was correct as it was affecting implementation of
> HiDPI support.
> 
> Believe same effect can/should be achieved with better integration with
> assistive technology "magnifier" tools of the OS.  And that would probably
> be the correct way for the project to go especially as HiDPI gains
> prominence.  
> 
> Believe transient exposure to a magnification tool, rather than scaling the
> whole UI, would have more practical application.

It was affecting implementation of hidpi?  Why not leave it in until you can
actually support hidpi?  In v5.3, hidpi support is terrible and incompatible
with the built in scaling of Windows.  I relied on that setting to adjust the
UI of libreoffice because it's the only application I run that doesn't scale
nicely out of the box with the Windows scaling setting.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |

--- Comment #22 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #21)
> OK, we'll make this an enhancement of suitable priority.

Please also remove needsUXEval when you think it's done. 

Besides the doubted use case it's hard to believe that such a feature
outperforms what the OS/DE can do, across various platforms. Better we make
sure the OS features work well if there is no problem with Word on Windows but
LibreOffice.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|medium  |low
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

--- Comment #21 from V Stuart Foote  ---
OK, we'll make this an enhancement of suitable priority.

If a dev wants to pick it up--IMHO it is worth doing, but not at the expense of
other more pressing facets of the GUI for HiDPI desktops and mobile devices.
Expect doing this correctly to reach all elements of the UI could be quite
challenging.

But this might provide framework for implementing other useful scaling and zoom
features, for example bug 105610.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #20 from LibreTraining  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #17)
> Magnifying, zooming and font scaling is up to the OS/DE. What other major
> program provides such a feature?


Operating system global scaling is rarely a viable option because it has
unintended or bad results on too many applications. Applications like Microsoft
Word work well because they are created by the same developer and therefore
well integrated with the OS zoom features. Other applications, not so much.
And often users don't want to scale everything in the OS (like me).

First applications that came to mind because I use them both ...

Adobe InDesign - UI Scaling setting - allows user to set the interface at 100%,
150%, or 200%.
This enables their users to make the UI scale choice based on the size and DPI
of their own display.
Same with other Adobe products.

Vivaldi browser (based on Chrome) - User Interface Zoom setting - scale
anywhere between 50% to 200% in 5% increments.

Many applications provide 3 sizes of icons - Inkscape, AutoCAD, Solidworks,
etc.


With all the different devices now, the ability for users to set the scaling
for the interface would seem to be a requirement.

While the current menu scaling in v5.2 may not be optimal, it is better than
nothing.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #19 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Again, it was removed because it was poorly implemented in source/UI and was
interfering with implementation of support for HiDPI.

Yes it could possibly be "restored", but better to redesign and implement a
solution that is less of a patchwork and supportable with emerging graphics.

@Caolan, Kendy?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #18 from brucehohl  ---
> What other major program provides such a feature?
Exactly!!
This is a great feature not commonly found in other office software.  It allows
the flexibility to configure the LO UI text independently of the OS/DE text
which might be desired for any number of reasons. Choice is good. Among the key
reasons I use Calc over Excel is that Calc offers a higher level of UI options
and easily available customization.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #17 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Magnifying, zooming and font scaling is up to the OS/DE. What other major
program provides such a feature?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

brucehohl  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||bruceh...@gmail.com

--- Comment #16 from brucehohl  ---
Just thought I might chime-in on this as I actually use this feature.

I think that the UI scaling feature remains relevant with the types of monitors
in use today.  According to
http://www.eizo.com/library/basics/pixel_density_4k/ HiDPI displays for
computers have been offered since 2014 so even if such displays render this
feature obsolete it will years before such displays are in the majority.  

With the average monitor in service today the various screen magnifying tools
can produce mixed results where some things improve but others degrade.  On the
other hand, the LO UI scaling feature and zoom feature work very well.  I even
reported  bug 101371 related to this mainly because I think this is a quality
feature worthy of continuation and maintenance at least until the next
generation of display technology becomes common.

Also, ironically, 5.3 has added an scaling option for the sidebar icons. 
Surely, if scaling for that UI component is important than it must also be
important for the text menus. Text menus are important as they provide a level
of program explore-ability "in plain English (or other language)" not possible
with unfamiliar icons.  I beg for a reprieve for this feature :)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #15 from LibreTraining  ---
I was using this to increase the font size to make screenshots easier to read.
Try documenting the navigator with any clarity with that tiny type.

Upscaling a screenshot is not an option as it even further reduces the quality
(which is already bad enough).

My vote is bring it back.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

--- Comment #14 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #13)
> From UX perspective, I do not see requirement to restore this.

from usability for average users I see requirement to restore this.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101646] UI option "Scaling" was removed

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101646

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org

--- Comment #13 from V Stuart Foote  ---
From UX perspective, I do not see requirement to restore this.

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