Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Michael Meeks]

On Mon, 2010-12-13 at 14:33 +0100, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
 I think the biggest issue is the offline editing; and I think here we
 can use the Wiki Publisher
 (http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/project/wikipublisher)  to
 edit the pages in LibreOffice.

Ooh - that is an interesting idea :-)

   I did not test it yet, but if the
 extension misses the functionality to merge the changes done in the
 wiki, it will be easy to plug it to LibreOffice document merge feature.

Sure; but I suspect there are issues around dictionaries, and other
helpful tooling that make translators lives easy :-)

Anyhow - it'd be great to collect the ideas for flows into the wiki
page; quite possibly there are several flows possible, and we can choose
per language. eg. if there is already a near-perfect translation, I can
understand people might not want it 'vandalised' by others changing
it :-) On the other hand, if there is simply no translation at all
currently for a language, almost anything might look better than nothing
- so perhaps an in-wiki-editing policy might make sense.

Either way, I for one am excited by the idea of having something that
is easier to edit and improve in English, although clearly the more, and
higher quality help in English we have, the harder the (already huge)
help translation problem becomes I guess.

HTH,

Michael.

-- 
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jean-Baptiste Faure]

Le 11/12/2010 10:01, Jean-Baptiste Faure a écrit :
 Le 06/12/2010 17:04, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
 Hi,

 I am sorry - I promised the LibO online help (WikiHelp) already the last
 week, but it haven't happened; it needed more work than anticipated :-(

 Either way, the good news is that I am currently uploading the files,
 and I'll make the site online as soon as it finishes, and I do few
 trivial checks; it should be later today (ETA 5 more hours, I am
 populating the database through the Mediawiki API, not directly).  So
 far I am uploading only the English version.

 It will be read-only until RC2, so that it is easy to report bugs
 against the tooling that converts the help from the format that is used
 in the source code.  After RC2, I plan to open it for your edits 
 improvements :-)
 Hi Kendy,

 I can't find any wiki page which explain this project. Does such
 web-page exists ? If not, I think such should be created as a reference.

 I think this wiki page should explain the rationale of the WikiHelp
 project and answer the very important questions that can be found about
 it in dev and doc mailing lists:

 - what about off-line help? I read somewhere that you want export
 WikiHelp to the system help of each platform for which we release LibO.
 That's right ?
 Many users, perhaps mainly in NLC, developing country or with restricted
 access to Internet, consider as a stopper to not have off-line
 (installed) localized help.

 - what about localization work-flow? How you plan to branch localization
 tools to WikiHelp?

 - what about QA validation of the on-line help? Help is part of the
 software and must QA validated: end-user and system administrator who
 install LibO must be able to have confidence in this reference.
 With other words: if you find an error in a wiki, you do the
 modification yourself. If you find an error in the off-line help, you
 file a bug report. It is not the same thing from the point of view of
 the end-user.


 Kind regards
 JBF

Hi,

I have another question about WikiHelp :
What about security ? How can you protect WikiHelp against vandalism and
spam if everybody is allowed to update this on-line help ? It seems it
is not so easy if you consider the wiki of OOo.

Best regards
JBF

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Sophie,

On 2010-12-11 at 14:35 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote:

  I have heard quite some complaints about the missing native language
  versions already; I am not sure I've explained it well enough
  previously, but this testing is blocking it.  So please - help me :-)
 
 I've search for your explanation on our list but didn't find them. 
 Currently we (the localizer team) do not want the localized help to be 
 uploaded on the wiki until we know about the localization process that 
 will be in place.

I have subscribed to the l10n mailing list just on Friday, after I
learned that there were some discussions there I was not aware of until
then.

Now, the explanation about wikihelp.  As you may recall, the conclusion
was described as:

create help-packs - split out the help for each language
and simply have no help installed[1], but a web link to on-line
help[2], and a download your help-pack here direction
+ not even English help would be installed -
  this will save us 11Mb in the 170Mb download

Also, each and every release notes of betas and even RC1 contained a
note The help content is not included. We are working on the online
version. Alternatively, it will be possible to install it separately.

It is my mistake that I did not explain the exact way to implement it in
advance, I am sorry for that.

So let me explain why wikihelp:

Wiki is so far the best free tool for collaboration editing I know of.
It gives anyone the freedom to improve things.  With help implemented as
a wiki, any user of the suite can (potentially) just describe the
functionality better, should he/she find out that something is described
wrongly, or just partially.

Also, why should be your native language just a translation of an
English help?  Should you have people that can improve the help, but
cannot speak English, why should they be bound to translating only, when
they can author the text?  Why should be the French help just a
translation of an English help, when it can be an own (better?) version?

This is why I believe implementing the help as a wiki is the best thing
to do.  How does it work:

- for 3.3, I am converting the .xhp files into wiki markup
  - it is now online as http://help.libreoffice.org
  - missing translations yet, I need to polish the tooling first
  - when the tooling is right, I'll add 2-3 more languages, for more
testing
  - when even that approved, I'll upload the rest

- anything untranslated in the localized versions will be marked
  appropriately
  - a template for that, like {{NeedsTranslation}} + the English version

- after the import is done, and people are happy with it, it will be
  open for account creation
  - for now, please ask me directly if you want to have an account
there, to edit pages like Main_Page, or Template:*
  - other pages might get rewritten by the import tooling

- after 3.3, I'll start to work on tooling to convert it back to offline
  help
  - to platform native help system
- Windows/Linux/MacOSX
  - from the engineering point of view, we don't want a home-grown help
system, as we have now
  - needs more research, to see if we don't lose features etc.

- when done, the wikihelp becomes the authoritative version of the help
  - but we'll still be able to incorporate changes from the .xhp files,
when merging from OOo
  - we can agree that some of the localized versions would be locked for
editing, and just taken from .xhp and .sdf files, but I _strongly_
advise against that

Open questions:

- extended tips
  - cannot be part of the wikihelp, most probably these have to be
handled separately, and translated using the normal process

- anything else?

 We are the one doing the work and it's a very big work, so please, 
 answer the questions we have asked.
 What if we open the git repository to anybody tomorrow?

As you might have noticed, anybody can ask for the git account, and
anybody with a bigger contribution is offered with write access.

  will you stay 
 there and spend your nights correcting the bugs newcomers have done or 
 those not taking care of your previous work?

Oh?  Were you following what we are doing on the development mailing
list?  The last months, we have spent days and nights reviewing and
fixing patches from new people.

  No, you'll go away from 
 such a project that do not care about your contributions and the quality 
 of its product.

Why do you think that people want to break your work?  Do you really
think that making something yourself is more effective than just
reviewing someone else's work?  How could it scale, if you were doing
everything yourself?

 So please, please again, answer the questions Martin asked, the 
 questions I asked, see Rimas and Jean-Baptiste mails too. And do not 
 open the wiki until we all agreed on the workflow, it's really important 
 for our localization team.

Yes, will do, and sorry again that I haven't summarized all this 

Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Jean-Baptiste,

On 2010-12-11 at 10:01 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:

 I can't find any wiki page which explain this project. Does such
 web-page exists ? If not, I think such should be created as a reference.

Good idea, I've created it now based on the mail to Sophie; and sorry
that I haven't created it before:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Wikihelp

 I think this wiki page should explain the rationale of the WikiHelp
 project and answer the very important questions that can be found about
 it in dev and doc mailing lists:
 
 - what about off-line help? I read somewhere that you want export
 WikiHelp to the system help of each platform for which we release LibO.
 That's right ?

Yes.  For 3.3, it is created from the .xhp + .sdf as before, for 3.4 I'd
like to have platform native help.

 Many users, perhaps mainly in NLC, developing country or with restricted
 access to Internet, consider as a stopper to not have off-line
 (installed) localized help.

Sure, understood.

 - what about localization work-flow? How you plan to branch localization
 tools to WikiHelp?

I believe for help, it is better to translate directly in the wiki - you
directly see the results of your work, as a complete page, instead of
just a list of localized strings, without context, and the final
rendering.

Additionally, this has the advantage that the documentation writers do
not have to understand English, to be able to work on the help.

 - what about QA validation of the on-line help? Help is part of the
 software and must QA validated: end-user and system administrator who
 install LibO must be able to have confidence in this reference.
 With other words: if you find an error in a wiki, you do the
 modification yourself. If you find an error in the off-line help, you
 file a bug report. It is not the same thing from the point of view of
 the end-user.

Yes - but it is your advantage :-) - if you get such a bug report, you
say the bug reporter Oh, it is a wiki, please improve it directly
there!, and just check the result of his work, instead of having to
write it yourself, commit, later check in a build etc.

Hope this helps,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Jean-Baptiste,

On 2010-12-13 at 11:02 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:

 What about security ? How can you protect WikiHelp against vandalism and
 spam if everybody is allowed to update this on-line help ? It seems it
 is not so easy if you consider the wiki of OOo.

So far the accounts are created just by me, later you could create the
account yourself.  As you say, opening it without logging in is probably
too much.

We can also restrict editing of the very visible pages, and implement
the recommendations from eg.

 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Combating_spam

and

 http://www.umasswiki.com/wiki/UMassWiki:Blocking_Spam_In_Mediawiki

Regards,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jonathan Aquilina]

I have one suggestion and I have seen this on the Ubuntu wiki.

When any editing is done on a page its emailed to a team, in this case 
the wiki team, and they check it for formatting so its consistent as 
well as the content.


On 12/13/2010 11:46 AM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:

Hi Jean-Baptiste,

On 2010-12-13 at 11:02 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:


What about security ? How can you protect WikiHelp against vandalism and
spam if everybody is allowed to update this on-line help ? It seems it
is not so easy if you consider the wiki of OOo.

So far the accounts are created just by me, later you could create the
account yourself.  As you say, opening it without logging in is probably
too much.

We can also restrict editing of the very visible pages, and implement
the recommendations from eg.

  http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Combating_spam

and

  http://www.umasswiki.com/wiki/UMassWiki:Blocking_Spam_In_Mediawiki

Regards,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp discussion

[David Nelson]

Hi Michael, :-)

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 18:24, Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com wrote:
        So - there is no need to open the wiki for editing ever, if that is a
 huge problem for people, and certainly we don't have to do this for 3.3,
 and certainly we don't have to open the wiki so just anyone can turn up
 from the street and spam it :-) [ it is easy to have approved
 translators only eg. ]. We can provide solutions for off-line editing,
 and there is certainly no need to switch tooling to make the wiki the
 authoritative data source now / yesterday :-) we can do that in a
 month / never if there is some insuperable problem.

Personally, I like the idea of editing the help on the wiki rather than offline.
But could the problem be solved by creating a user group on the wiki and
only allowing editing rights for that group's users? Then we could add selected
devs, i10n and docs people to that group?

Is that a feasible solution?

David Nelson
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp discussion

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi Michael,
On 13/12/2010 13:24, Michael Meeks wrote:

Hi Sophie  all,

On Sat, 2010-12-11 at 14:35 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote:

I've search for your explanation on our list but didn't find them.
Currently we (the localizer team) do not want the localized help to be
uploaded on the wiki until we know about the localization process that
will be in place.


Well :-) this is not really for us to define; it is for the l10n team
to decide this, with us. We can give you some options of course - but it
is your call.


Ok, thanks :-)



We are the one doing the work and it's a very big work, so please,
answer the questions we have asked.


Help us answer the questions. We are not going to impose something on
you that you don't want; and we can't make the decisions in a vacuum,
we're part of the same family - so lets try to collect requirements
together in a friendly way :-) If you have some, please knock up a wiki
page with them. Some are quite interesting, eg. the French localisation
legislation is fascinating and a new concept to me at least.


Ok this is why it's important we work together on this, we also know 
what is needed for our language and our users too.



So please, please again, answer the questions Martin asked, the
questions I asked, see Rimas and Jean-Baptiste mails too. And do not
open the wiki until we all agreed on the workflow, it's really important
for our localization team.


So - there is no need to open the wiki for editing ever, if that is a
huge problem for people, and certainly we don't have to do this for 3.3,
and certainly we don't have to open the wiki so just anyone can turn up
from the street and spam it :-) [ it is easy to have approved
translators only eg. ]. We can provide solutions for off-line editing,
and there is certainly no need to switch tooling to make the wiki the
authoritative data source now / yesterday :-) we can do that in a
month / never if there is some insuperable problem.


Thanks, I'm happy to read this :-)


Anyhow, I suspect there are perhaps three problems here, none of them
truly technical:

A. People are paranoid about developers dictating new tools
   to them that do not meet their needs / quality
+ but this isn't going to happen
+ and hassling people providing new options is not the
  best way to have your requirements considered :-)


Yes, even if we are not against new tools or developer ideas. 
Localization is a hard work, with a lot of pressure because it's at the 
end of the process and it's a very visible work. A bad localization can 
ruin the developer efforts in providing good functionality.


B. Communication is bad: lots has been written to mailing lists
   but people are either not on those lists, or unable to filter
   the signal they want from the general noise
+ This is partly because Kendy is working extremely hard
  and effectively on this, and...
+ mailing lists are the secondary developers' tool
  after IRC, and few hackers are on the l10n lists (I
  guess).


I think it's very important that developers and localizers are not so 
far. It's just like QA, we need to work all together. You can write the 
killer feature, if the localization is wrong, you're feature will never 
work or get the user attention it deserves. And here the Help files have 
a first role to play too.


C. We didn't package Windows help packs, and communicate them
   clearly for the off-line Windows help situation [ yet ! ]
   this is getting fixed however.


great, thanks.


Anyhow - summary - I think we don't have a big problem here - beyond
the communication issue. The answers to -all- Jean Baptiste's (good)
questions are either already answered (sometimes several times) on
various mailing lists, and/or simply not answered yet - they are open
questions. There is no need to fear the worst answer to each un-answered
question :-) hopefully together we will work out the best answer.


Silence is never good, but I hope I shout enough to be known as the one 
who makes the more noise in this project ;-)


It would be -extremely- helpful if some of those most eager to know the
answers to their questions, could create a suitable wiki page, with
their questions in it - *and* preferably do a quick search of Kendy's
mails to the dev list:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2010-December/author.html

Search for Jan Holesovsky in there, and collate the state of what is
there already into the page: it is not rocket science. Post the link,
and then we can work on any pending / un-answered questions.


ok, will review all this this evening


How does that sound ?


Great, thanks a lot :)

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp discussion

[Michael Meeks]

On Mon, 2010-12-13 at 18:57 +0800, David Nelson wrote:
 Personally, I like the idea of editing the help on the wiki rather than 
 offline.
 But could the problem be solved by creating a user group on the wiki and
 only allowing editing rights for that group's users? Then we could add 
 selected
 devs, i10n and docs people to that group?

Sure, by inspection, it is a trivial solution to this problem of
random / un-controlled user editing / spamming - notice the help is not
in the existing wiki, but a separate one anyway.

OTOH - it seems like we have a tooling gap with the existing plan, so -
lets see where that goes. It may even be that different languages prefer
different approaches to help editing, wiki or not wiki - who knows; but
the tool is there, and (to me) looks quite cool :-) and it provides
useful search, and cross-linking for read-only on-line help today.

ATB,

Michael.

-- 
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp discussion

[Jonathan Aquilina]

Regardless if its spam posting or editing of a pages its all moderated 
so if there is spam its automatically denied. also they have it to where 
you have to have a login to be able to do any editing. CAPTCHA can also 
help mitigate spam and bots when users sign up to be able to do any 
editing of any wiki page.


On 13/12/2010 13:00, Michael Meeks wrote:

On Mon, 2010-12-13 at 18:57 +0800, David Nelson wrote:

Personally, I like the idea of editing the help on the wiki rather than offline.
But could the problem be solved by creating a user group on the wiki and
only allowing editing rights for that group's users? Then we could add selected
devs, i10n and docs people to that group?

Sure, by inspection, it is a trivial solution to this problem of
random / un-controlled user editing / spamming - notice the help is not
in the existing wiki, but a separate one anyway.

OTOH - it seems like we have a tooling gap with the existing plan, so -
lets see where that goes. It may even be that different languages prefer
different approaches to help editing, wiki or not wiki - who knows; but
the tool is there, and (to me) looks quite cool :-) and it provides
useful search, and cross-linking for read-only on-line help today.

ATB,

Michael.



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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jean-Baptiste Faure]

Hi Kendy,

Le 13/12/2010 11:37, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
 Hi Jean-Baptiste,

 On 2010-12-11 at 10:01 +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:
 I can't find any wiki page which explain this project. Does such
 web-page exists ? If not, I think such should be created as a reference.
 Good idea, I've created it now based on the mail to Sophie; and sorry
 that I haven't created it before:

 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Wikihelp

Thank you for this wiki page about WikiHelp. I will contribute with
questions and suggestions.

For now, I am not sure that everybody make a clear distinction between
help and documentation. For me:

- help (on-line or off-line) is a reference for the end-users. So it is
a part of the software, it is not something which may be added after the
release. From this point of view the help must be the same in all
languages. For example the help gives the syntax of Calc function; the
developers of these functions must describe their syntax in English and
translators must only translate the English reference. Until that is not
done the software is not complete and cannot be released.
Another example: in LibO UI we have several buttons which allow the user
to save the current file he is working on. If the English name of these
buttons are always the same (eg. save as...), it is very important
they are always the same in each localization (eg Enregistrer sous...
in French but never Sauvegarder sous un autre nom which is however
more elegant). If it is not the case you cannot say that you have the
same software in English and in other languages.
It important to have tools and validation process to ensure that. And I
am very skeptic about the capability of a wiki to be an easy-to-use tool
for such kind of multilingual reference.

- documentation is not a part of the software itself. In the
documentation I see guides, how-to, books, tutorials, etc. These
material might be different in a language to another according to the
skills of local doc-team, their interests, legislation, usages, etc. In
this case we do not have to maintain the equivalence between several
dozen of references. For documentation I think that the wiki is the
appropriate tool.

Best regards.
JBF

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Sophie,

On 2010-12-13 at 14:05 +0300, Sophie Gautier wrote:

  I have subscribed to the l10n mailing list just on Friday, after I
  learned that there were some discussions there I was not aware of until
  then.
 
 This is the list for the people doing the work you're currently 
 removing, so you should have come first to this list :-)

I hope I am not removing anyone's work; I just want to change the
workflow a bit, hopefully for better :-)  And also yes, this is not set
in stone, there are several prerequisites for the last step (wikihelp
being an authoritative source for the help) that clearly depend on you -
the translators and documentation writers.

There are many technical solutions possible, including uploading the
English wikihelp pages to pootle (so far it is done per paragraph
anyway), and having chosen languages read-only in wikihelp, generated
from the English version + pootle.

  Also, why should be your native language just a translation of an
  English help?  Should you have people that can improve the help, but
  cannot speak English, why should they be bound to translating only, when
  they can author the text?  Why should be the French help just a
  translation of an English help, when it can be an own (better?) version?
 
 This is all the difference between documentation and the help. Creating 
 content is much more difficult than translating it and doesn't have the 
 same cost. So offering the help files for translation ensure that all 
 languages have access to the same basis of *accurate* information. This 
 is what Help is and why it should stay in a localization process.

Maybe I am entering a thin ice here, but do not think we have a good
help as of now.  There is so few information there, in many times in the
form 'Insert Picture' functionality inserts a picture from a file. ;-)

We need to grow the family of the documentation writers, and we cannot
do that by using the current tools.  Authoring the .xhp files as we have
now has a terribly steep learning curve (see the description of the xml
language that is used for that, or the description of how to use the
extension for the help authoring
http://documentation.openoffice.org/online_help/helpers/helpauthoring/guide/OOo2HelpAuthoring.pdf).

So we need to do the work easier not only for the translators, but for
the help authors, or the documentation team in general, too.  And I
believe that with wiki, this has the biggest potential to scale.

 Offering the same information at the lowest cost as possible.
 If it needs to be completed, lets do it as we have done until now : 
 using links pointing to the wiki (see the Calc functions, as an example).

I am sorry I haven't stressed this enough still: For 3.3, I am just
importing the help to the wikihelp, there is no change in your
processes.

 Just an example : we often have to correct one string in the UI, to make 
 sure it's changed in all the files where this string is appearing, we 
 just grep and change the string. You won't be able to do that on a wiki. 

It is again solvable, it is easy to provide dumps of the wiki (believe
it or not, bzipped it has only about 1.4M per language), for the offline
grepping.

 Also we make large use of suggestions and comments on strings, we work 
 off line, we use translation memory and glossaries, etc. All these 
 tooling ensure a quality of our work that you won't be able to use on a 
 wiki.

I think the biggest issue is the offline editing; and I think here we
can use the Wiki Publisher
(http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/project/wikipublisher)  to
edit the pages in LibreOffice.  I did not test it yet, but if the
extension misses the functionality to merge the changes done in the
wiki, it will be easy to plug it to LibreOffice document merge feature.

  As you might have noticed, anybody can ask for the git account, and
  anybody with a bigger contribution is offered with write access.
 
 with bigger contribution it is different from a wiki where anybody is 
 able to create an account and start to work.

It is just up to the wiki setup - we can of course have a group of
admins who will be giving rights just to the selected people, etc.

 yes, provided you can discuss with this people, on a wiki, you just 
 create a account and can stay anonymous, unfortunately. Really, all the 
 l10n teams have spent nights on these files, we wouldn't like see them 
 destroy by a bot.

Understood - please see my other mail to JBF about fighting spam.

 No you misunderstand what I say, reviewing is the same for me,

I see, OK.

  but a 
 wiki is just open to every body without knowledge of stylistic, 
 linguistic, and so on.

No, it does not have to be open to everybody, even the account creation
can be restricted to selected group of people only.

 Most of the time I've posted also on the dev list, so you may not have 
 miss mine. But surely, Martin and Rimas one. I'll try to find them when 
 I can reach the archives of the list.

Sorry, I missed 

Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp discussion

[Wols Lists]

On 13/12/10 10:57, David Nelson wrote:
 Personally, I like the idea of editing the help on the wiki rather than 
 offline.
 But could the problem be solved by creating a user group on the wiki and
 only allowing editing rights for that group's users? Then we could add 
 selected
 devs, i10n and docs people to that group?
Am I right, most of this stuff is going to be reviewed anyway?

So lock all the main pages, but have the discussion pages freely
editable. They might get spammed :-( but the reviewers can be notified
regularly of new discussion pages, then they read the discussion, edit
anything suitable into the master page, and delete the discussion.

That way, contribution is open to all, the master quality is maintained,
and we have an automated workflow of sorts where the maintainers are
automatically appraised of new content.

Cheers,
Wol
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 10/12/10 23:42, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :

Hi Kendy,

 I have heard quite some complaints about the missing native language
 versions already; I am not sure I've explained it well enough
 previously, but this testing is blocking it.  So please - help me :-)
 

Any chance of getting entries for the Base Module, and Basic / Macros ?

Thanks,

Alex
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi all,

On 2010-12-07 at 16:45 +0100, Jan Holesovsky wrote:

  Either way, the good news is that I am currently uploading the files,
  and I'll make the site online as soon as it finishes, and I do few
  trivial checks; it should be later today (ETA 5 more hours, I am
  populating the database through the Mediawiki API, not directly).  So
  far I am uploading only the English version.
  
  It will be read-only until RC2, so that it is easy to report bugs
  against the tooling that converts the help from the format that is used
  in the source code.  After RC2, I plan to open it for your edits 
  improvements :-)
 
 http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running.  As explained above,
 it is not open for public editing yet.  There are few known bugs already
 filed in the bugzilla, should you find more, please report them too,
 with 'wikihelp: ' in the subject, and assign them directly to me.
 
 The already reported bugs are:
 
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32173
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32174
 
 You can either test the wikihelp directly from LibreOffice RC1, by
 issuing help on various parts of the suite (if you find something that
 leads to non-existing page, please report it too), or just from your
 browser, using 'Random page' in the left hand menu, and visually
 scanning it :-)
 
 I'll improve the tooling according to your findings, and upload the
 improved versions of the pages.

I got just 2 additional bugreports, I am not sure it is enough ;-)

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32290
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32291

All four are fixed now, but please - really test it.  Until we are sure
that the quality of the conversion tool is good enough, it makes no
sense to upload the l10n versions of the help - it would unnecessarily
blow the size of the database with every improvement of the conversion
tool.

I have heard quite some complaints about the missing native language
versions already; I am not sure I've explained it well enough
previously, but this testing is blocking it.  So please - help me :-)

Thank you,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[David Nelson]

Hi Kendy, :-)

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 06:42, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote:
 I got just 2 additional bugreports, I am not sure it is enough ;-)

 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32290
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=32291

 All four are fixed now, but please - really test it.  Until we are sure
 that the quality of the conversion tool is good enough, it makes no
 sense to upload the l10n versions of the help - it would unnecessarily
 blow the size of the database with every improvement of the conversion
 tool.

 I have heard quite some complaints about the missing native language
 versions already; I am not sure I've explained it well enough
 previously, but this testing is blocking it.  So please - help me :-)

Personally, I'm taken up this weekend with other work for LibO but,
next week when I have more time, I will definitely look at the
WikiHelp and do my best to provide practical help.

David Nelson
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Kohei,

On 2010-12-07 at 11:05 -0500, Kohei Yoshida wrote:

   http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running. 
  
  Can someone post the IP address of that site?  For me, that leads to the
  old go-ooo source code documentation by doxygen.  It could be a DNS
  caching issue if we are trying to change the sub-domain routing.
 
 Ah, nevermind.  The real main page is
 
 http://help.libreoffice.org/Main_Page.

How comes it is not redirected?  Here it works just fine, ie. when I
type help.libreoffice.org in the browser, I get the Main_Page.  I am
confused :-) - ideas appreciated.

Regards,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Muthu Subramanian K]

Kendy,

I guess we should tie the 'help-welcome' (the page that opens when the
user clicks Help-Help from menu) pages to the wiki/Main_Page or
probably create a LibreOffice welcome help page (to point to the Writer,
Calc, and other applications help-start pages)...
I too felt it odd for it not to have it. Just my thought...

Thanks!
Muthu Subramanian

On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 14:48 +0100, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
 Hi Miklos,
 
 On 2010-12-07 at 22:21 +0100, Miklos Vajna wrote:
 
   http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running.  As explained above,
   it is not open for public editing yet. 
 
  I must miss something really trivial, but I do not see where to start
  reading. :) The only way to find pages from the main page is to use the
  Random page or Recent changes feature.
  
  Did I miss the point? :)
 
 You did ;-)  The point is not to browse the help per se (even though it
 can of course evolve into that), but the real usage is to hit F1 in
 LibreOffice without a help installed, and you'll get _directly_ to the
 right page - eg. if you navigate by keys in the File menu to 'Save
 As...', and hit F1' you'll get directly to
 
 http://help.libreoffice.org/Swriter/.uno:SaveAs
 
 :-)
 
 Similarly for the checkboxes/input fields/anything in the dialogs, or
 wherever you can hit F1 and get some help.
 
 Regards,
 Kendy
 
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 08/12/10 15:22, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :

 We have these, eg. when you hit F1 in a freshly opened Writer, you get
 to:
 
 http://help.libreoffice.org/Swriter/start
 

When I hit F1 on my Macbook, my screen brightness diminishes...

When I hit Fn-F1 together, the inline help is displayed. I'm actually
rather happy with that :-)) and would prefer for it to stay that way.


However, this does pose the problem of consistency of help guidelines
over the various OS platforms.


Alex

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Miklos,

On 2010-12-08 at 18:59 +0100, Miklos Vajna wrote:

  Actually - if anyone volunteers to improve the Main_Page (eg. collect
  links to swriter/start, scalc/start, ...), I'll be happy to create the
  account for him to do that; or I can cut and paste any improvements sent
  to this thread directly as an wiki update.
 
 I guess it's not so hard to collect all the start pages if you have
 access to the SQL db under the wiki - but without having that I would
 put something like:

Cool, thank you a lot!  Now it's there :-)

Regards,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Kohei Yoshida]

On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 16:45 +0100, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
 
 http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running. 

Can someone post the IP address of that site?  For me, that leads to the
old go-ooo source code documentation by doxygen.  It could be a DNS
caching issue if we are trying to change the sub-domain routing.

Kohei

-- 
Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc
kyosh...@novell.com

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Kohei Yoshida kyosh...@novell.com wrote:
 On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 16:45 +0100, Jan Holesovsky wrote:

 http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running.

 Can someone post the IP address of that site?

help.libreoffice.org.   86365   IN  A   195.135.221.70

ciao
Christian
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Miklos Vajna]

On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 04:45:28PM +0100, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote:
 http://help.libreoffice.org is now up and running.  As explained above,
 it is not open for public editing yet. 

Hi,

I must miss something really trivial, but I do not see where to start
reading. :) The only way to find pages from the main page is to use the
Random page or Recent changes feature.

Did I miss the point? :)

Thanks.


pgpHolUuW6jtL.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

I was just wondering if there are any updates about progress with the
WikiHelp? ;-)

David Nelson
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[David Nelson]

Hi Kendy, :-)

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 17:19, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote:
 Hi David,

 On 2010-11-26 at 16:44 +0800, David Nelson wrote:

 I suppose that logically this is something for the documentation team
 to get involved in... We're having a phone conference this weekend...
 Shall I add it to the agenda?

 Indeed - that would be cool!  I am not sure if I can show up on the call
 this weekend, but will try to - are there any details when / how to
 join?

  If you need a docs person to liaise with
 about this, please feel free to include me in the loop.

 Sure, will do.

 Thank you,
 Kendy

All the details are here [1]. Feel free to jump in and add to the agenda. ;-)

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/ConfCalls

David Nelson
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jonathan Aquilina]

how do you guys carry out the conference calls are they carried out on
skype?

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:46 AM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.bizwrote:

 Hi Kendy, :-)

 On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 17:19, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote:
  Hi David,
 
  On 2010-11-26 at 16:44 +0800, David Nelson wrote:
 
  I suppose that logically this is something for the documentation team
  to get involved in... We're having a phone conference this weekend...
  Shall I add it to the agenda?
 
  Indeed - that would be cool!  I am not sure if I can show up on the call
  this weekend, but will try to - are there any details when / how to
  join?
 
   If you need a docs person to liaise with
  about this, please feel free to include me in the loop.
 
  Sure, will do.
 
  Thank you,
  Kendy

 All the details are here [1]. Feel free to jump in and add to the agenda.
 ;-)

 [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/ConfCalls

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 18:22, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com wrote:
 how do you guys carry out the conference calls are they carried out on
 skype?

It's on Talkyoo, Jonathan.

David Nelson
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jonathan Aquilina]

hijacking the thread here, but it might come in hand if users who want to
join in so they can give their point of view. are end users also welcome to
join?

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:29 AM, David Nelson comme...@traduction.bizwrote:

 Hi, :-)

 On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 18:22, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  how do you guys carry out the conference calls are they carried out on
  skype?

 It's on Talkyoo, Jonathan.

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[David Nelson]

Hi Kendy, :-)

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 17:19, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote:
 I suppose that logically this is something for the documentation team
 to get involved in... We're having a phone conference this weekend...
 Shall I add it to the agenda?

 Indeed - that would be cool!  I am not sure if I can show up on the call
 this weekend, but will try to - are there any details when / how to
 join?

OK, I've added the subject of WikiHelp to the docs confcall agenda
[1], so we have this on the radar.

HTH. ;-)

David Nelson

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/ConfCalls#Agenda
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 21:04, Christian Lohmaier
lohma...@googlemail.com wrote:
 (BTW, *where* is this Pootle web to be found?)

 It would help to write why the answer:

 http://pootle.documentfoundation.org/ (alias
 http://translations.documentfoundation.org/ )

 didn't make you happy...

Sorry, I was trying to multitask on a client's job and this thread at
the same time... Thanks for *all* the answers! :-D

I got what I need to reflect on ATM. ;-)

David Nelson
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi all,
On 26/11/2010 16:04, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi David, *,

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 1:56 PM, David Nelsoncomme...@traduction.biz  wrote:

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 20:42, Christian Lohmaier
lohma...@googlemail.com  wrote:

No - english (en_US) is defined within the sources, so english is the
master language and no translation.
But there is en_UK (but for most of the string it of course just falls
back to en-US)


So where would the root editing of the source text be done?


In the actual sources, in git.
For help it would be
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/tree/helpcontent2/source
for other stuff like UI strings in the corresponding files that define
a dialog/the corresponding menu-entry.


Also, the extended tips are part of the HC2. In an help segment, the 
first part of the segment between 2 tags is where is located usually the 
info tip, the rest of the segment appearing in the HC2 files.


Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Christian, David,

On 2010-11-26 at 14:04 +0100, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

  So where would the root editing of the source text be done?
 
 In the actual sources, in git.
 For help it would be
 http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/tree/helpcontent2/source
 for other stuff like UI strings in the corresponding files that define
 a dialog/the corresponding menu-entry.
 
  Where is
  the definitive version of the source texts that serves as the
  reference for all the international translations?
 
 In the sources of LO.

Yes, this is the status quo, and also the thing I would like to change -
that the WikiHelp would become the 'root' source for help.  My goal is
to make the work for the Help authors as easy as possible - so that they
do not have to learn the help XML format (or the tricks  macros that
make it editable from LibO).

Of course, for the other elements like the UI, it still has to work as
you explained - LibO sources as the source of the texts for
translations.

  (Actually, I think that's the question currently being discussed in
  this thread...
 
 Nope, the question is here on how to make helpcontent (that is usually
 shipped with the product, i.e. what you get when you press F1) also
 available on the web (as the current windows installer doesn't include
 help at all)

When we have the WikiHelp set up, I'd like to turn the problem around -
how to generate a good off-line help (that you'd be able to include in
the installation) out of the Wiki version :-)

[Luckily, there are tools out there to turn the Wiki markup into
Docbook, and other formats.]

Regards,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[David Nelson]

Hi Sophie, Kendy, Christian, :-)

Thanks for the answers and info... I'll talk about this with other
docs people, and we'll probably have input about this in a couple of
days...

David Nelson
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Re: [Libreoffice] LibreOffice WikiHelp

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

I suppose that logically this is something for the documentation team
to get involved in... We're having a phone conference this weekend...
Shall I add it to the agenda? If you need a docs person to liaise with
about this, please feel free to include me in the loop.

David Nelson

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 16:00, Jan Holesovsky ke...@suse.cz wrote:
 Hi Christian,

 On 2010-11-25 at 22:24 +0100, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

  Hm... how will the help be exported? What's easiest for you? MediaWiki, any
  other interface?

 The question is whether you want people to just read the content
 there, or whether you want people to update content. I'd say: provide
 only readonly access, maybe with a commenting feature, but keep the
 editing to pootle.

 Let me actually take this to the ML, because this is a really good
 question, and I probably did not explain much about the WikiHelp so far.

 So first - what is WikiHelp?  It is going to be a help.libreoffice.org
 site, where the LibreOffice help will be stored.  The intention is that
 it will be a Wiki - because the Wiki concept and format is widely used
 for information exchange, and because it is so easy to edit and
 improve.

 For the first cut, it will be read-only, to debug the converter; I'll
 announce it in a few days for feedback + testing.

 In the long run [around LibreOffice final ;-)], we should allow editing
 there when 'good enough', so that the wikihelp becomes the source of the
 help for LibreOffice, instead of the xhp files.  I am still doing the
 final experiments there, but the hope is that I'll get it to the state
 where the developer can just commit code that should have some help,
 provide a stub article, and the first time a user hits that, she/he can
 update it with more information.  And the off-line (installed) help will
 be generated from this wikihelp in the next releases.

 Additionally, thanks to wiki being versioned, we will still be able to
 merge changes from OOo.

  I can imagine that getting the help files into a wiki
  require some manual work, so we should chose the web interface that's
  easiest for us to use. :-)

 Simplest would probably just a small xstl conversion to html of the
 application help files.

 The tooling is now written, just needs testing and polishing:

 cd clone/help/helpcontent2
 ./help-to-wiki.py

 And you'll see the current result in a wiki/ subdir.  Whoever interested
 in this - patches appreciated! :-)

 Regards,
 Kendy

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