Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[bill-auger]

sandstorm has all those webby goodies

https://apps.sandstorm.io/

self-host or "one click install" on their instance

https://oasis.sandstorm.io/


On Mon, 2018-07-02 at 20:23 +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:

> Is there any wiki page summarizing the options given in this thread or
> could anybody suggest a good place to create a wiki page?

libreplanet is a wiki

http://libreplanet.org/


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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Daniel Pocock]

On 20/08/17 06:59, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 19:52:51 +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
>> blogger.com
> 
> Blogger requires non-free JS to even begin to render a page.  I've never
> been able to read any blogs hosted on that site, unfortunately.
> 
> Unless things have since changed.
> 
>> Github pages have also become popular with developers recently.
> 
> While static pages hosted on github.io do not carry the same problems as
> GitHub itself (non-free JS), you'd be encouraging users to use GitHub to
> do so.
> 

This is even more important with the recent announcement about Github
being sold to Microsoft

Is there any wiki page summarizing the options given in this thread or
could anybody suggest a good place to create a wiki page?

Some people mentioned Wordpress, the biggest concern I have with
Wordpress is that some Wordpress blogs are not correctly syndicated[1]
by Planet sites.  If anybody knows what Wordpress users need to do to
make their blogs appear that would be helpful.

Some people mentioned options that require payment/credit cards.  For
the vast majority of students outside the wealthy countries, they either
don't qualify for a credit card or they struggle with cost.  For
example, they won't pay $10/year for a .com domain, they find some
really cheap alternative TLD.  For somebody like that, if they have a
choice between a free blog on Github Pages and paying for something
non-Github, more than 90% of them will choose the option that costs $0.

Regards,

Daniel


1. https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg4.html

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Quiliro Ordonez Baca]

> Daniel Pocock wrote:
>> blogger.com and wordpress are well known platforms for people to
>> create free blogs.  Github pages have also become popular with
>> developers
>> recently.
>>
>> What are the recommended alternatives for people who want to adhere to
>> a more free / libre approach?

Try freedombone.net . It can be installed on any Debian (nonfree, please
be careful when adding nonfree repositories or recommended extras) or
Parabola (free distro). Applications such as Worpress and Git are
available for local installation. But there are other alternatives in
FreedomBone also. Besides blogging, there are chat servers, webmail,
wikis, owncloud, etc. You must activate the appropriate packages via a
browser interface and configure them that way too.

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Logan Streondj]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

The best place to start a blog is ZeroNet!
Fully open source, and cloneable.

Don't have to worry about the hosting problems that plague many of the
decentralized open source social networks.

On 2017-08-17 01:52 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> blogger.com and wordpress are well known platforms for people to
> create free blogs.  Github pages have also become popular with
> developers recently.
> 
> What are the recommended alternatives for people who want to adhere
> to a more free / libre approach?
> 
> In particular, I'm looking for solutions I can recommend to
> students getting into Outreachy and GSoC.  They often have a lot of
> things to think about at the start of their project and need to
> start blogging quite quickly.
> 
> For now, I'm tempted to recommend github pages with Jekyll static 
> content generation because at least the git repository (and full 
> history) behind these sites can be easily migrated to any other
> hosting platform.  Are there other alternatives people recommend?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___ libreplanet-discuss
> mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 
> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
> 

- -- 
Logan Streondj,
A dream of Gaia's future.
twitter: https://twitter.com/streondj

You can use encrypted email with me,
how to: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/
key fingerprint:
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[John Rooke]

J.B.

Sorry for taking so long to reply.

On Sat, 2017-08-19 at 20:02 -0500, J.B. Nicholson wrote: 

> John Rooke wrote:
> > Anyone who visited the Daily Stormer prior to its takedown knows that
> > there is plenty of evidence to vindicate Cloudflare's decision.
> 
> None of which you name, point to, 

Well, obviously, the site has been taken down - and before you make the
obvious point - no, it's not a good idea to allow people to go on
organising crimes, just so you can prove that they are organising
crimes.  There are real victims involved here.  However, in addition to
the material I referred to in my earlier reply to David Isaac, I
remember a delightful piece which argued that women should be hit from
time to time for their own good.

> nor do you address the issue of this 
> being extrajudicial which is the chief problem here.

I disagree.  We cannot rely on the courts to protect us from fascism.
This has never worked in the past and is unlikely to work in the
future. 

>  This merely confirms 
> the danger in hosting with someone else 

On the other hand, it could be taken as demonstrating the power of the
market to regulate civilised discourse on the internet.  The owners of
Daily Stormer are free to go elsewhere for their hosting, providing of
course, that they are able to find anyone at this point who is still
willing to associate with them. 

> 
> > As for Chomsky, he may not have "kicked anyone off the internet", but he
> > has to my certain knowledge, used his power to silence critics.
> 
> The problem here is one of attacking character as a means of distracting 
> from the underlying point 


Please remember that it was you who introduced Chomsky's name in order
to bolster your argument.  I think it is reasonable to point out that he
has not found the 'wisdom' of his position to be workable in practice.
The fundamental point is not that Chomsky is a hypocrite, but that his
line of reasoning has not been successfully implemented in practice.
Dragging RMS into the argument clarifies nothing.

Limits are properly placed on the freedom of speech, when it materially
infringes on the freedoms of others.  The history of anti-fascist
struggle dates back a hundred years and many lessons have been learned.
One of these is that fascists will shamelessly use the doctrine of free
speech to defend their activities while simultaneously working to
undermine it.

All the best,

John
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Aaron Wolf]

On 08/20/2017 04:02 PM, Adonay Felipe Nogueira wrote:
> Interesting view...
> 
> I wonder however, how to deal with cases where the site
> visitor/guest/client doesn't have any script blocker or scanner enabled?
> Surely he'll fall into the JavaScript trap... and it's in this situation
> that the problem is. You and I both have either GNU LibreJS or NoScript,
> but we can't assume that everyone else has either one of these because
> most browsers don't come with these by default, and I'm also talking
> about web browsers for mobile devices.
> 

I'm not saying Blogger is fine. It's proprietary. It's far from ideal.
But there *are* lots of sites that won't render without non-free JS, and
Blogger isn't one of those. So, we should just get the complaints correct.

Side note: even requiring 100% free JS to render is stupid as JS
shouldn't be needed *ever* to render plain HTML content.

Oh, and I acknowledge there's a weird trend of mobile sites using extra
JS that a non-mobile version doesn't need. That stinks.

> Also, regarding GNU LibreJS, like any human made thing, it also isn't
> perfect, but there are some points to consider:
> 

LibreJS would be great if only it were more popular and well-maintained
and recognized. It doesn't need to be perfect. I'm not saying it's
garbage either. All I'm saying is that LibreJS has enough innacuracy to
not be a reliable source for the status of things. If a site works with
LibreJS, it's almost certainly legit. But if it fails, we don't know
immediately if it was just an error or a failure of the site to follow
LibreJS protocols versus actual non-libre issues.

> - At least in the case of Blogger: Just because GNU LibreJS doesn't
>   recognize the licensing markup advised in its documentation, this
>   doesn't mean Blogger can simply skip doing the licensing markup in the
>   way advised by GNU LibreJS documentation. Visiting a "Blogger blog" I
>   see that Blogger simply doesn't attempt to license most of the scripts
>   that are both inside the HTML page ("script" elements and other
>   scripting elements per the HTML standards) and in JS scripts.

Yes, and that's common of most sites. But the scripts can be blocked and
Blogger sites still render. That was my only point. Not that Blogger is
okay or should be recommended.

> 
> - From the past consulting I gave to people about freeing their JS, I
>   noticed something very strange: People often seem to forget that
>   DOM/HTML/JS events handlers/listeners are scripting elements. GNU
>   LibreJS knows this, but web developers seem to forget. :)
> 

Today's web developers do all sorts of horrendous crap. Pages that
should be static content are full of nonsense and bloat.

> Having said all that, I do agree that any client-side website scripting
> is a plague that must be avoided. But if there is such a thing in a
> given website, then it ought to be either free/libre and clearly marked
> as such to the visitor/guest/user, or entirely removed from the website.
> 

I agree, of course. But we're a long way from that dream. The web has
largely become a pit of malice with manipulative ads, addictive designs,
click-bait, propaganda, surveillance, etc. If that stuff was done with
libre client-side JS instead of non-free, it wouldn't necessarily make
that much difference, although I'd certainly want it versus the status quo.


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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

Interesting view...

I wonder however, how to deal with cases where the site
visitor/guest/client doesn't have any script blocker or scanner enabled?
Surely he'll fall into the JavaScript trap... and it's in this situation
that the problem is. You and I both have either GNU LibreJS or NoScript,
but we can't assume that everyone else has either one of these because
most browsers don't come with these by default, and I'm also talking
about web browsers for mobile devices.

Also, regarding GNU LibreJS, like any human made thing, it also isn't
perfect, but there are some points to consider:

- At least in the case of Blogger: Just because GNU LibreJS doesn't
  recognize the licensing markup advised in its documentation, this
  doesn't mean Blogger can simply skip doing the licensing markup in the
  way advised by GNU LibreJS documentation. Visiting a "Blogger blog" I
  see that Blogger simply doesn't attempt to license most of the scripts
  that are both inside the HTML page ("script" elements and other
  scripting elements per the HTML standards) and in JS scripts.

- From the past consulting I gave to people about freeing their JS, I
  noticed something very strange: People often seem to forget that
  DOM/HTML/JS events handlers/listeners are scripting elements. GNU
  LibreJS knows this, but web developers seem to forget. :)

Having said all that, I do agree that any client-side website scripting
is a plague that must be avoided. But if there is such a thing in a
given website, then it ought to be either free/libre and clearly marked
as such to the visitor/guest/user, or entirely removed from the website.

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Aaron Wolf]

On 08/20/2017 11:10 AM, Adonay Felipe Nogueira wrote:
> At least for me, using GNU LibreJS 6.0.13, it seems to force
> visitors/guests/clients to use some non-free software, see the attached
> report.
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 

The use of potentially non-free JS as reported by LibreJS is *never*
proof of anything. LibreJS, while well-intended, is only half-functional
and has tons of wrong calls.

The more important thing is to just use a page with ZERO JS at all, i.e.
NoScript. If the page works and renders that way, then you can be 100%
certain that it renders without the need for non-free JS.

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Hi,

- Mensagem original -
> De: "Daniel Pocock" 
>
> blogger.com and wordpress are well known platforms for people to create
> free blogs.  Github pages have also become popular with developers recently.
> 
> What are the recommended alternatives for people who want to adhere to a
> more free / libre approach?


I use http://softwarelivre.org to my blog.
But I'm not sure how it is to english users.

Best regards,

-- 
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Curitiba - Brasil
Membro da Comunidade Curitiba Livre
Site: http://www.phls.com.br
GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450

Apoie a campanha pela igualdade de gênero #HeForShe (#ElesPorElas)  
http://www.heforshe.org/pt

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

At least for me, using GNU LibreJS 6.0.13, it seems to force
visitors/guests/clients to use some non-free software, see the attached
report.

-- 
- [[https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno]]
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
  gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre. Por favor, use o GNU Ring ou o Tox.
- Contato: [[https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno#vCard]]
- Arquivos comuns aceitos (apenas sem DRM): Corel Draw, Microsoft
  Office, MP3, MP4, WMA, WMV.
- Arquivos comuns aceitos e enviados: CSV, GNU Dia, GNU Emacs Org, GNU
  GIMP, Inkscape SVG, JPG, LibreOffice (padrão ODF), OGG, OPUS, PDF
  (apenas sem DRM), PNG, TXT, WEBM.
List of blocked JavaScript in http://blog.wolftune.com/

 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts

window.___gcfg = { 'lang': 'en' };

 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts

window.setTimeout(function() {
document.body.className = document.body.className.replace('loading', '')
;
  }, 10);

 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts

window['__wavt'] = 'AOuZoY4T3oTcZbEGvBKeIMl2EQART0LkoA:1503154506571';_WidgetMan
ager._Init('//www.blogger.com/rearrange?blogID\x3d9131476869173021866','//blog.w
olftune.com/','9131476869173021866');
_WidgetManager._SetDataContext([{'name': 'blog', 'data': {'blogId': '91314768691
73021866', 'title': 'Exploring music and life in the 21st century', 'url': 'http
://blog.wolftune.com/', 'canonicalUrl': 'http://blog.wolftune.com/', 'homepageUr
l': 'http://blog.wolftune.com/', 'searchUrl': 'http://blog.wolftune.com/search',
 'canonicalHomepageUrl': 'http://blog.wolftune.com/', 'blogspotFaviconUrl': 'htt
p://blog.wolftune.com/favicon.ico', 'bloggerUrl': 'https://www.blogger.com', 'ha
sCustomDomain': true, 'httpsEnabled': false, 'enabledCommentProfileImages': true
, 'gPlusViewType': 'FILTERED_POSTMOD', 'adultContent': false, 'analyticsAccountN
umber': '', 'encoding': 'UTF-8', 'locale': 'en', 'localeUnderscoreDelimited': 'e
n', 'languageDirection': 'ltr', 'isPrivate': false, 'isMobile': false, 'isMobile
R…
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts
[{"attribute":"onload","value":"if(media!='all')media='all'"}]
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":"return _WidgetManager._PopupConfig(document.get
ElementById(\"Text1\"));"}]
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":"return _WidgetManager._PopupConfig(document.get
ElementById(\"PageList1\"));"}]
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":""}]
 * Whitelist
NONTRIVIAL: square bracket suffix method call detected
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":"window.open(this.href, \"_blank\", \"height=270
,width=475\"); return false;"}]
 * Whitelist
NONTRIVIAL: square bracket suffix method call detected
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":"window.open(this.href, \"_blank\", \"height=430
,width=640\"); return false;"}]
 * Whitelist
NONTRIVIAL: square bracket suffix method call detected
[{"attribute":"onsubmit","value":"window.open(\"https://feedburner.google.com/fb
/a/mailverify?uri=wolftune\", \"popupwindow\", \"scrollbars=yes,width=550,height
=520\"); return true"}]
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":"return _WidgetManager._PopupConfig(document.get
ElementById(\"FollowByEmail1\"));"}]
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":"return _WidgetManager._PopupConfig(document.get
ElementById(\"Profile1\"));"}]
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":"return _WidgetManager._PopupConfig(document.get
ElementById(\"Label1\"));"}]
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, defining functions or methods, and t
he rest of the page as loading external scripts
[{"attribute":"onclick","value":"return _WidgetManager._PopupConfig(document.get
ElementById(\"BlogSearch1\"));"}]
 * Whitelist
This script is detected as inline, nonfree, 

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[John Rooke]

On Sat, 2017-08-19 at 14:09 -0500, Isaac David wrote: 

> John Rooke wrote :
> > Furthermore, it was correct. If the alt-right/neo-fascist
> > movement ever achieve power, dissenting voices will have far more to
> > worry about than having their websites closed down.
> 
> allow me to disagree. the alt-right is growing because of decisions
> like this one, not in spite of them.

I can't see any grounds for this argument.  The Daily Stormer and many
other sites have been tolerated for many years.  Fascists are allowed
freedom of speech in our society, they are not censored.  This has
allowed their movement to grow to the point where they are able to
semi-openly advocate violence and we have seen the effects of this, most
recently in the murder of Heather Heyer.

IMO the actual causes for the growth of the alt-right in recent years
are to be found in: [1] the process of capitalist globalisation, which
has undermined the welfare of large sections of Western societies and
threatens considerably more damage in the future; accompanied by [2] a
reaction to the political gains of previously unfairly treated sections
of society such as women and people of colour; and [3] the dominance of
a political discourse that denigrates the validity of 'working class' as
an acceptable political identity, forcing white working class people to
seek alternatives.  These conditions provide fertile ground for fascist
ideas and forms of organisation to spread, particularly among white
working class males, by providing scapegoats against which they can
direct their anger. 

In any event, your remark does not address my main point here, which is
that the threat is far more serious than the taking down of a few
websites.  In fascist political strategy, political violence on the
streets is the first step towards a general closing down of dissenting
political discourse.  It is vital that we understand the nature of this
threat and act to counteract it.

> i must say upfront that i have no sympathy for them,

I think you must say it!  This is a cancer in our society and all right
thinking people should stand openly against it. 

> but summoning the Streisand effect is the very kind of thing
> that will empower them more (remember the Paypal-Wikileaks affair, or
> the AACS encryption key?). 

I do not think that any of these examples are appropriate.  In each
case, an action was taken to attempt to cover up the truth, in each case
it failed because it drew attention to the truth that was being covered
up.  There is no sense in which the action against the Daily Stormer was
an attempt to cover up the truth.  The site was a mixture of lies,
insults and exhortations to violence or other forms of fascist
organisation.  I doubt that we will see any negative effects from its
take-down. 

> censorship makes you look insecure in your
> positions 

In some cases only.  Again, the issue of truth is central here.  The
Stormer was not a channel for factual accounts, or rational critique.  I
think the take-down actually makes the internet community stronger, by
making it plain that there are some forms of behaviour that we will not
tolerate. 

> and provides your opponent with a victimhood narrative.

They already have a narrative of victim-hood. It is central to their
philosophy.According to them, the international Jewish conspiracy is
attempting to commit genocide against the 'white race' by, among other
things: encouraging inter-breeding with lesser races; encouraging women
to take up roles other than childbearing and rearing; and granting equal
rights to LGBT+ people.  They see evidence of this everywhere.  The
take-down of a website is a very minor event in this narrative.

On the other hand, they will, of course, use the take-down as a means of
gaining sympathy from well-meaning liberals, by cynically employing a
discourse of free speech which in fact they despise.

>  even
> using the very money they received from the Daily Stormer to talk
> openly about the latter would have had more lasting effects on
> reducing their power.  

I doubt it.  You assume that fascists are open to evidence and rational
argument.  I can assure you, from long experience, that this is not the
case.  

In some cases, such as the BBC Question Time appearance of 
BNP leader Nick Griffin, the strategy of debate has worked, but this was
because the BNP were employing an electoral strategy that required them
to appear respectable in the eyes of voters.  The alt-right is now
employing a quite different strategy in the US, using the populist
Donald Trump as a proxy at the polls, leaving them free to engage in
less respectable activities simultaneously. 

> i think we all should strive to see bad ideas exposed, so that they
> can die in reason and ridicule in every person's mind, 

Of course, I agree with you.  However, we are not so much talking about
ideas here, as about the organisation of hatred.  Apart from the
inventiveness involved in the perpetuation and 

Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Aaron Wolf]

On 08/19/2017 09:59 PM, Mike Gerwitz wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 19:52:51 +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
>> blogger.com
> 
> Blogger requires non-free JS to even begin to render a page.  I've never
> been able to read any blogs hosted on that site, unfortunately.
> 
> Unless things have since changed.
> 


I have a site built and hosted on Blogger, and I'm quite sure there's no
JS needed to render anything. And that's been the case forever. Try it.
It's http://blog.wolftune.com

That said, there's tons of free-software reasons to not use Blogger, and
I'm hoping to leave it as soon as I find time and decide what to do
next. I tend to take my time to work on Snowdrift.coop instead of fixing
my own site though.



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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Thomas Harding]

(French) Chomsky a émis une théorie du langage qui ne souffrait pas d'exception 
(en gros, les langages humains permettent obligatoirement de dire au moins 
"demain, j'irai pêcher cinq ou six poissons pour nous nourrir, moi, ma femme et 
mes 3 enfants").

Quelqu'un a découvert une peuplade, et a rapidement compris qu'elle n'avait 
jamais eu besoin d'un truc pareil, sauf que la théorie de Chomsky est depuis un 
certain temps passée à l'état de religion.

"Je vais chercher du poisson."
"Voici un poisson. Voici un autre poisson. Voici un autre poisson. Il y a plein 
de poisson."

"Voici mon enfant. Voici mon autre enfant. Voici mon autre enfant. Tous mes 
enfants sont là".

L'ethnologue c'est fait tirer dans les pattes pendant des années, mais a réussi 
à rapporter suffisamment de fragments audio pour qu'on considère que ce n'était 
pas un artifice et qu'après étude par les équipes de Chomsky il existait une 
exception.

Juste à temps, parce que le programme d'aide aux peuplades aborigènes est 
arrivé, et qu'aujourd'hui la lumière la nuit est pratique, et puis on leur 
apprend le portugais. 

Autant dire que pour pousser cette étude plus avant, c'est râpé, et qu'on a 
perdu une énorme occasion de *comprendre* l'utilité réelle des nombres et des 
propositions subordonnées.

La liberté de parole, la liberté d'étudier, ... On ne peut pas nier les risques 
que présentent les idéologies, mais sans accepter ce risque, le progrès humain 
est au point mort.

Le 20 août 2017 03:02:39 GMT+02:00, "J.B. Nicholson"  a 
écrit :
> John Rooke wrote:
> > Anyone who visited the Daily Stormer prior to its takedown knows
> that
> > there is plenty of evidence to vindicate Cloudflare's decision.
> 
> None of which you name, point to, nor do you address the issue of this
> 
> being extrajudicial which is the chief problem here. This merely
> confirms 
> the danger in hosting with someone else no matter how righteous their 
> statements appear to be or how much they turn on those statements when
> 
> emotions run high.
> 
> > As for Chomsky, he may not have "kicked anyone off the internet",
> but he
> > has to my certain knowledge, used his power to silence critics.
> 
> The problem here is one of attacking character as a means of
> distracting 
> from the underlying point (an issue I should have made more clear in
> my 
> initial response): even if Chomsky had "kicked someone off the
> Internet" as 
> CloudFlare's CEO says he did, that wouldn't render what Chomsky says
> about 
> freedom of speech to be wrong. It's arguing by proxy to point out that
> 
> Chomsky doesn't follow his own line, essentially saying that Chomsky
> may be 
> hypocritical and hoping that the hypocrisy will magically transfer
> into 
> undermining the support for freedom of speech even in the light of 
> objectionable messages.
> 
> People try this approach with software freedom too -- when they can't
> make 
> a good counterargument for software freedom they argue against a
> noteworthy 
> free software activist, such as Richard Stallman, by pointing to a 
> recording where he says something untoward, or one can see him doing 
> something one typically doesn't see public presenters do. This doesn't
> read 
> on the underlying argument being made, it's a distraction and attempt
> to 
> graft whatever unpleasantness one finds in the speaker's behavior to
> the 
> idea, thus obviating the need for any discussion of the idea on its
> own merits.
> 
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-- 
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-- Sophocle (Antigone)

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Mike Gerwitz]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 19:52:51 +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> blogger.com

Blogger requires non-free JS to even begin to render a page.  I've never
been able to read any blogs hosted on that site, unfortunately.

Unless things have since changed.

> Github pages have also become popular with developers recently.

While static pages hosted on github.io do not carry the same problems as
GitHub itself (non-free JS), you'd be encouraging users to use GitHub to
do so.

A further consideration is how the static site with Jekyll is published:
through a build outside of the user's control.  It is SaaSS.[0]

Any host that allows the user to upload their own website in their
entirety---and have full control over that website---would be fine to
avoid such an SaaSS issue.  That's your traditional web host, provided
that you can use it without running non-free software (mainly JS) to
register an account and upload.


[0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com


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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[J.B. Nicholson]

John Rooke wrote:

Anyone who visited the Daily Stormer prior to its takedown knows that
there is plenty of evidence to vindicate Cloudflare's decision.


None of which you name, point to, nor do you address the issue of this 
being extrajudicial which is the chief problem here. This merely confirms 
the danger in hosting with someone else no matter how righteous their 
statements appear to be or how much they turn on those statements when 
emotions run high.



As for Chomsky, he may not have "kicked anyone off the internet", but he
has to my certain knowledge, used his power to silence critics.


The problem here is one of attacking character as a means of distracting 
from the underlying point (an issue I should have made more clear in my 
initial response): even if Chomsky had "kicked someone off the Internet" as 
CloudFlare's CEO says he did, that wouldn't render what Chomsky says about 
freedom of speech to be wrong. It's arguing by proxy to point out that 
Chomsky doesn't follow his own line, essentially saying that Chomsky may be 
hypocritical and hoping that the hypocrisy will magically transfer into 
undermining the support for freedom of speech even in the light of 
objectionable messages.


People try this approach with software freedom too -- when they can't make 
a good counterargument for software freedom they argue against a noteworthy 
free software activist, such as Richard Stallman, by pointing to a 
recording where he says something untoward, or one can see him doing 
something one typically doesn't see public presenters do. This doesn't read 
on the underlying argument being made, it's a distraction and attempt to 
graft whatever unpleasantness one finds in the speaker's behavior to the 
idea, thus obviating the need for any discussion of the idea on its own merits.


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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Isaac David]

John Rooke wrote :

I am not, of course, arguing against the rather obvious point that a
host can take down a website if they so choose.


right, subject to the host's contractual liabilities to its
costumers. and this is why alternative platforms that will give a
voice to not-so-welcome views are so important. by the same token, one
can't argue against their decision to host them.


Furthermore, it was correct. If the alt-right/neo-fascist
movement ever achieve power, dissenting voices will have far more to
worry about than having their websites closed down.


allow me to disagree. the alt-right is growing because of decisions
like this one, not in spite of them.

i must say upfront that i have no sympathy for them,
but summoning the Streisand effect is the very kind of thing
that will empower them more (remember the Paypal-Wikileaks affair, or
the AACS encryption key?). censorship makes you look insecure in your
positions and provides your opponent with a victimhood narrative. even
using the very money they received from the Daily Stormer to talk
openly about the latter would have had more lasting effects on
reducing their power.

i think we all should strive to see bad ideas exposed, so that they
can die in reason and ridicule in every person's mind, once and for
all. free speech is how we prevent disaster from brewing. moreover, if
violent authoritarians ever get to power --and they will, sooner or
later, whether from the left or from the right-- i will wish having
been born in a society with a strong tradition of freedom that won't
tolerate authoritarians for long.

--
Isaac David
GPG: 38D33EF29A7691134357648733466E12EC7BA943
Tox: 
0C730E0156E96E6193A1445D413557FF5F277BA969A4EA20AC9352889D3B390E77651E816F0C



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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Lyberta]

The most sane approach is using a VPS with 100% free software stack and
hosting your site from there. A good bonus of this is that you can
easily host a Tor hidden service so your site will be extremely harder
to block.



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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[J.B. Nicholson]

John Rooke wrote:

The example of Daily Stormer is not a good one.  The site was being used
to organise alleged criminal activity up to and including murder.


I think the point stands: intermediaries and proprietors can "wake up in a 
bad mood" and decide to "kick [someone or some group] off the Internet". 
Also, if there's anything to learn from the recent Russophobic attacks by 
the US government and commercial media, allegations aren't good enough to 
support a claim.


The point I'm making in the context of /this/ thread remains the same: one 
shouldn't ignore the power of an intermediary or proprietor when one seeks 
to publish with the intention of being read. Picking any third party to 
handle one's blog is always a risky tradeoff. Today DreamHost.com fights 
the US government in their pursuit of access logs (per 
https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/we-fight-for-the-users/ ), tomorrow 
DreamHost.com could hand over such data to another party without telling 
anyone they did so, or shut down a blog they host that has become (even 
only temporarily) politically uncomfortable. Non-technical users are not 
socially encouraged to think through the ramifications of hosting with 
someone else's computers. I maintain that a right-minded effort to get 
non-technical users their own Internet-based publishing setup should help 
make them aware that no matter how friendly their current hoster appears to 
be, that hoster has the power to cut them off, hand over access logs, and 
domains. If this power is leveraged against some (particularly those whose 
political messages are disagreeable) the same can be done to the rest of us.



It was hardly a case of 'waking up in a bad mood', subsequent to the
death of Heather Heyer.
Then your complaint is properly lodged with CloudFlare's CEO who made the 
glib "wake up in a bad mood" comment and acted apparently extrajudicially 
to "kick them off the Internet" as he put it.



Incidentally, Chomsky is rather less of a libertarian when it comes to
criticisms of his own work.
I'm unaware of Chomsky "kicking someone off the Internet" in reaction to a 
disapproving review.


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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[James McFarland]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017, at 17:01, John Rooke wrote:
> On Thu, 2017-08-17 at 19:57 +0200, klez wrote:
> 
> > Honest question: what's the problem with Wordpress? Don't they use a 
> > full free software stack?
> 
> Just giving this a nudge.  I'd like to know the answer too.
> John
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I recommend Ghost also, my expectation is that once setup, it is the
easiest authoring environment one could want, using the simple markdown
syntax - in fact, one could simple author without using any formatting
at all - to keep things simple.

ghost.org should have all the information you need.

It is open source software with the source code available on github, and
it is licensed under the MIT License
See: https://github.com/TryGhost/Ghost/blob/master/LICENSE

To minimize monetary costs, there is a self-hosting guide here:
https://docs.ghost.org/v1.0.0/docs/getting-started-guide

If you have time before your event, you could likely host all the ghost
blogs for all participants on a small computer (laptop) or raspberry pi
(please check the licenses for the OS on these machines to be sure they
meet your needs).

You might also consider getting the participants started quickly at your
event by using the Ghost Desktop app - which could enable them to begin
writing at the event, and post to the public internet afterwards - the
desktop app is also MIT licensed.
See: https://github.com/TryGhost/Ghost-Desktop

Further, Ghost is a very open-source friendly not for profit group of
folks that would likely be very happy and responsive to a direct contact
from you to get their input on how to best organize your efforts with
Ghost for your event and follow-on goals.

If you decide to contact ghost, would you please post a brief summary of
their response on the list?

Very interested to know if my expectations are rational.

Thanks,
-james

-- 
  James McFarland
  ja...@jamesmcfarland.com



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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[John Rooke]

On Thu, 2017-08-17 at 19:57 +0200, klez wrote:

> Honest question: what's the problem with Wordpress? Don't they use a 
> full free software stack?

Just giving this a nudge.  I'd like to know the answer too.
John
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[John Rooke]

On Thu, 2017-08-17 at 17:25 -0500, J.B. Nicholson wrote:

> Any third-party hosting can run aground of censorship -- find yourself 
> saying something other people don't want to read? Recent events at 
> Cloudflare[1] show us that claims to not "monitor, evaluate or judge" 
> quickly become "I woke up this morning in a bad mood and decided to kick 
> them [Daily Stormer] off the Internet.". Quite a ways from Noam Chomsky's 
> wisdom and challenge[2] to those who think stopping publication of disliked 
> messages is the right way to go.

The example of Daily Stormer is not a good one.  The site was being used
to organise alleged criminal activity up to and including murder.  It
was hardly a case of 'waking up in a bad mood', subsequent to the death
of Heather Heyer.  Incidentally, Chomsky is rather less of a libertarian
when it comes to criticisms of his own work.
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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[J.B. Nicholson]

Daniel Pocock wrote:
blogger.com and wordpress are well known platforms for people to create 
free blogs.  Github pages have also become popular with developers

recently.

What are the recommended alternatives for people who want to adhere to
a more free / libre approach?


If you're hosting something on someone else's computer, I recommend picking 
hosting based in either something that carries no nonfree software 
requirement (I think there are multiple template-based blog programs that 
let you process a plaintext file and turn it into a blog post) or something 
that runs with free software client-side software (I'd look into WordPress 
to see if the software they send to the client is free because there are 
multiple places that host blogs with WordPress).


But there's not going to be a great solution to this until people can get 
their own domains, point them at their own box running in their home (ala 
FreedomBox), and host their blogs under their control.


Any third-party hosting can run aground of censorship -- find yourself 
saying something other people don't want to read? Recent events at 
Cloudflare[1] show us that claims to not "monitor, evaluate or judge" 
quickly become "I woke up this morning in a bad mood and decided to kick 
them [Daily Stormer] off the Internet.". Quite a ways from Noam Chomsky's 
wisdom and challenge[2] to those who think stopping publication of disliked 
messages is the right way to go.


I recommend buying one's own domain (for easily redirecting users to a new 
blog hoster without making users change their bookmarks) and hosting with 
someplace that hasn't yet censored someone's blog. The problem is I'm not 
quite sure which organizations to recommend on this right now.



[1] 
https://torrentfreak.com/cloudflare-kicking-daily-stormer-is-bad-news-for-pirate-sites-170817/


[2] "Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was 
Stalin. If you're really in favor of free speech, then you're in favor of 
freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you're 
not in favor of free speech."


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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Erik Moeller]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Daniel Pocock  wrote:
> blogger.com and wordpress are well known platforms for people to create
> free blogs.  Github pages have also become popular with developers recently.
>
> What are the recommended alternatives for people who want to adhere to a
> more free / libre approach?

I'll echo others that Automattic/Wordpress is generally a good free
software citizen. There will always be points of disagreement, of
course, but it should not be lumped together with wholly proprietary
platforms.

I also recommend checking out Ghost, which is a relatively new player.
The platform is developed by a nonprofit with focus on serving
journalism projects, but they offer general hosting plans, as well:
https://ghost.org/pricing/

Note that unlike WP, Ghost doesn't have a built-in commenting system.
It's generally a much less feature-rich platform, with focus on clean
aesthetics, performance, and social media support.

Erik

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:39:37PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> On 17/08/17 20:57, Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:24:34PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> >> On 17/08/17 20:17, Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 07:52:51PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote:
>  Hi all,
> 
>  blogger.com and wordpress are well known platforms for people to create
>  free blogs.  Github pages have also become popular with developers 
>  recently.
> 
>  What are the recommended alternatives for people who want to adhere to a
>  more free / libre approach?
> 
>  In particular, I'm looking for solutions I can recommend to students
>  getting into Outreachy and GSoC.  They often have a lot of things to
>  think about at the start of their project and need to start blogging
>  quite quickly.
> 
>  For now, I'm tempted to recommend github pages with Jekyll static
>  content generation because at least the git repository (and full
>  history) behind these sites can be easily migrated to any other hosting
>  platform.  Are there other alternatives people recommend?
> 
>  Regards,
> 
>  Daniel
> >>> I love ikiwiki, and there is branchable [1].
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://www.branchable.com/
> >> The fees there - $9.99 per month - are actually quite expensive in some
> >> of the countries where we attract students and interns
> >>
> >> I'm going to a hackathon event this weekend where there will be 25
> >> students and it would be great if all 25 start a blog but if they need
> >> to get out their credit card, I suspect some will be reluctant to try it.
> >>
> >> Are there similar options without cost?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Daniel
> > Well, at least I am glad cost is the first issue you have with using
> > branchable.com. There is ikiwiki-hosting at Debian, so setting up
> > something that allows all those 25 to use a single cheap VPS host should
> > not be a year's work. I have no idea how simple it is, but I understand
> > you don't have time for that, and it's something that you need to be
> > maintained and involve some money cost.
> >
> > Still, there is the first free month, and then you can test how the
> > migration really works out.
> >
> > Also, http://www.branchable.com/news/free_hosting_for_Free_Software/.
> 
> Good in principle but the process they describe looks a little bit
> complicated.
> 
> > The other way of thinking about it is: what is the sustaining model for
> > a "free" hosting?
> 
> Whatever it is, it probably needs to involve bringing together a range
> of services into a single package, giving a lengthy free trial (2-3
> years) for students and potentially being helped by subsidies from some
> of the non-profit organizations.

I wonder if Debian and/or SFC could help with that somehow.

Cascardo.

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel

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Re: [libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[klez]

Honest question: what's the problem with Wordpress? Don't they use a 
full free software stack?


And how is Github (which is a proprietary platform *for sure*) a better 
solution?


Thanks for your answers

klez


On 08/17/2017 07:52 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:

Hi all,

blogger.com and wordpress are well known platforms for people to create
free blogs.  Github pages have also become popular with developers recently.

What are the recommended alternatives for people who want to adhere to a
more free / libre approach?

In particular, I'm looking for solutions I can recommend to students
getting into Outreachy and GSoC.  They often have a lot of things to
think about at the start of their project and need to start blogging
quite quickly.

For now, I'm tempted to recommend github pages with Jekyll static
content generation because at least the git repository (and full
history) behind these sites can be easily migrated to any other hosting
platform.  Are there other alternatives people recommend?

Regards,

Daniel




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[libreplanet-discuss] helping newcomers start blogs - but where?

[Daniel Pocock]

Hi all,

blogger.com and wordpress are well known platforms for people to create
free blogs.  Github pages have also become popular with developers recently.

What are the recommended alternatives for people who want to adhere to a
more free / libre approach?

In particular, I'm looking for solutions I can recommend to students
getting into Outreachy and GSoC.  They often have a lot of things to
think about at the start of their project and need to start blogging
quite quickly.

For now, I'm tempted to recommend github pages with Jekyll static
content generation because at least the git repository (and full
history) behind these sites can be easily migrated to any other hosting
platform.  Are there other alternatives people recommend?

Regards,

Daniel




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