Re: [scala] Re: [Lift] Programming in Scala #5, Lift Book #8, Beginning Scala #9
Note sure I'd agree make is all that simple... Unless you're doing something VERY basic then it's loaded with potential for accidental complexity. The whole philosophy of maven is to do the Right Thing(tm) by default, although I must admit that boilerplate for configuring plugins is frequently a pain in the proverbial On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Josh Suereth joshua.suer...@gmail.comwrote: I must say, I have not met a build system (besides automake) that exceeded make in complexity. The amount of funny exceptions to rules is astounding. I had far less trouble learning maven (in all its complexity) Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2009, at 4:56 PM, Alexy Khrabrov delivera...@gmail.com wrote: Since the topic seems to have morphed into learning Scala and Lift by immersion in a day, as a recent Scala convert, I can't begin to emphasize how important it is to have the build infrastructure all done in a simple way to let novices focus on Scala. Lift is a good example where you have no choice and just follow magic Maven incantations. Another is Processing in Scala, where you can just do small sketches. If the assumption is that it is the Java crowd which comes to JVM mostly, it doesn't bootstrap non-JVM folks like those coming from Ruby and Haskell/OCaml. So I'm glad David covers the build systems in his book; there should really be an easier way to begin without making choices between Maven, SBT, Buildr, Ant, etc.! Nothing more complex than a good old command line and a Makefile in the same directory... Ideally SBT becomes a part of Scala and you'll have a --make option, or something like that. Cheers, Alexy --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [scala] Re: [Lift] Programming in Scala #5, Lift Book #8, Beginning Scala #9
2009/6/9 Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com Awesome idea. Would be great to establish some kind of curriculum with joint teaching material to be able to offer courses worldwide. +1 We have been doing something similar with Eclipse = www.eclipse-training.net And very recently we also started with courses on Scala and Lift, still flagged Eclipse Training Alliance. But we would like to go for some kind of world wide Scala Training network. What do you guys think? Interested? Heiko --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [scala] Re: [Lift] Programming in Scala #5, Lift Book #8, Beginning Scala #9
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Heiko Seeberger heiko.seeber...@googlemail.com wrote: 2009/6/9 Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com Awesome idea. Would be great to establish some kind of curriculum with joint teaching material to be able to offer courses worldwide. +1 We have been doing something similar with Eclipse = www.eclipse-training.net And very recently we also started with courses on Scala and Lift, still flagged Eclipse Training Alliance. But we would like to go for some kind of world wide Scala Training network. What do you guys think? Interested? Very! Heiko -- Viktor Klang Rockstar Developer --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [scala] Re: [Lift] Programming in Scala #5, Lift Book #8, Beginning Scala #9
Luc, Jorge, Kaliya and I did a LiftWorkshop in November. We had 6 people at the workshop. We tried to pack in Scala and Lift all into a day... it didn't work. Jorge and I have done some review and we figure there's 3 days of Scala training and 2-3 days of Lift training that would be a minimum for folks to be able to go home and build Lift apps. The To Do example (see http://liftweb.net/docs/getting_started.html ) would be one of the days (we gave it about an hour during the workshop and that was not nearly enough.) Thanks, David On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:23 AM, Luc Duponcheel luc.duponch...@gmail.comwrote: here are some thoughts: - agreeing upon the *what* is probably easier than agreeing upon the *how * for example: which IDE to use (if any) during the labs [ Eclipse, Netbeans, ... ] . My experience is that the description of how to do labs should be independent of any tools (it does not make sense to explicitely state things like: in Netbeans go to this submenu and select that choice and ... ). - I think we should go for 'extreme course development' in the sense that changes can be incorporated quickly (any text based format that can (in a moderated way) be edited by many people is good (e.g. LaTeX, assuming the existence of templates)) [ maybe git would be a perfect candidate for doing version management ] Another advantage of using text based development is that consistency can be automated: for example, code excerpts in slides can be extracted programmatically from the code proper so that all changes to that code are automatically propagated [ and also propagated in the embedded slides of student guides ]. I have some LateX templates (and Scala code) to automate all this. [ I have to agree that there is much room for improvement of the look-and-feel (it has been some time since I played around with LaTeX, and I'm not a specialist of LaTeX's beamer package) ] - About the financial model: if it is joint work, then I do not think it makes much sense to ask companies like Sun (or Oracle) money for the * development* of the material. If they are willing to make the material part of their curriculum (which implies: visibility via their catalogs), then we can make money by *delivering* the material. Whether or not the material itself should be freely downoadable by anyone in the world is yet another matter. Again, maybe there should be some moderated group of people having access to the material. ... Luc On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Luc Duponcheel luc.duponch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I attended the talk on Scala and the talk on Lift. Both excellent talks! [ I did not attend the talk on Actors (I was cycling on the other side of the Golden Gate Bridge (Mt Tamalpais)) ] ... Those talks act as 'teasers' to make developers 'eager to know more about Scala'. This is great! But, sometimes, I also have the impression that those talks 'preach for those that are already converted'. The point I want to make is the following: when talking to developers about Scala, I am almost always confronted with the fact that they still think it has a 'steep learning curve'. I tell them that 'once you have climbed the mountain, you can enjoy the view over the landscape' (cfr Mt Tamalpais). So, I really think there is this need for *hands on training*. Maybe some of you folks should try to convince Sun (or Oracle) Education to invest in training courses. Not a simple task indeed, but, worth the effort (helps Scala becoming mainstream). ps: I agree that I'm partially saying this out of pure opportunism (I'm delivering Java courses for Sun Education, and, of course, I would be the first one to deliver Scala courses). Awesome idea. Would be great to establish some kind of curriculum with joint teaching material to be able to offer courses worldwide. Luc On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, David Pollak feeder.of.the.be...@gmail.com wrote: A big congratulations to the authors as well as the whole Scala community... Yet another proof point that 2009 is the year of Scala. Rock On! On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:34 AM, TylerWeir tyler.w...@gmail.comwrote: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=54862 Quote: Here are the top 10 selling books at the JavaOne Bookstore. Are these a trend? You decide. 1. JavaFX: Building Rich Internet Applications - Addison Wesley ISBN: 013701287X 2. Essential JavaFX - PTR (out June 11, 2009) ISBN: 0137042795 3. Effective Java 2nd ed. - PTR ISBN: 0321356683 4. Java Puzzlers - Addison Wesley ISBN: 032133678X 5. Programming in Scala - Artima ISBN: 0981531601 6. Java Concurrency in Practice - Addison Wesley ISBN:0321349601 7. Beginning Java EE 5: From Novice to Professional - Apress ISBN: 1590594703 8. The Definitive Guide
Re: [scala] Re: [Lift] Programming in Scala #5, Lift Book #8, Beginning Scala #9
In addition to the Lift Workshop, I also co-taught a ten-week (1.5hrs/wk) course at Stanford on Scala. It was targeted at advanced undergrads and graduate students. Most were programming language enthusiasts, so the course focused more on the interesting parts of Scala from a programming language perspective, rather than a more practical here's-how-you-get-stuff-done course (like the Lift Workshop). --j On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 2:33 AM, David Pollak feeder.of.the.be...@gmail.comwrote: Luc, Jorge, Kaliya and I did a LiftWorkshop in November. We had 6 people at the workshop. We tried to pack in Scala and Lift all into a day... it didn't work. Jorge and I have done some review and we figure there's 3 days of Scala training and 2-3 days of Lift training that would be a minimum for folks to be able to go home and build Lift apps. The To Do example (see http://liftweb.net/docs/getting_started.html ) would be one of the days (we gave it about an hour during the workshop and that was not nearly enough.) Thanks, David On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:23 AM, Luc Duponcheel luc.duponch...@gmail.comwrote: here are some thoughts: - agreeing upon the *what* is probably easier than agreeing upon the * how* for example: which IDE to use (if any) during the labs [ Eclipse, Netbeans, ... ] . My experience is that the description of how to do labs should be independent of any tools (it does not make sense to explicitely state things like: in Netbeans go to this submenu and select that choice and ... ). - I think we should go for 'extreme course development' in the sense that changes can be incorporated quickly (any text based format that can (in a moderated way) be edited by many people is good (e.g. LaTeX, assuming the existence of templates)) [ maybe git would be a perfect candidate for doing version management ] Another advantage of using text based development is that consistency can be automated: for example, code excerpts in slides can be extracted programmatically from the code proper so that all changes to that code are automatically propagated [ and also propagated in the embedded slides of student guides ]. I have some LateX templates (and Scala code) to automate all this. [ I have to agree that there is much room for improvement of the look-and-feel (it has been some time since I played around with LaTeX, and I'm not a specialist of LaTeX's beamer package) ] - About the financial model: if it is joint work, then I do not think it makes much sense to ask companies like Sun (or Oracle) money for the * development* of the material. If they are willing to make the material part of their curriculum (which implies: visibility via their catalogs), then we can make money by *delivering* the material. Whether or not the material itself should be freely downoadable by anyone in the world is yet another matter. Again, maybe there should be some moderated group of people having access to the material. ... Luc On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Luc Duponcheel luc.duponch...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I attended the talk on Scala and the talk on Lift. Both excellent talks! [ I did not attend the talk on Actors (I was cycling on the other side of the Golden Gate Bridge (Mt Tamalpais)) ] ... Those talks act as 'teasers' to make developers 'eager to know more about Scala'. This is great! But, sometimes, I also have the impression that those talks 'preach for those that are already converted'. The point I want to make is the following: when talking to developers about Scala, I am almost always confronted with the fact that they still think it has a 'steep learning curve'. I tell them that 'once you have climbed the mountain, you can enjoy the view over the landscape' (cfr Mt Tamalpais). So, I really think there is this need for *hands on training*. Maybe some of you folks should try to convince Sun (or Oracle) Education to invest in training courses. Not a simple task indeed, but, worth the effort (helps Scala becoming mainstream). ps: I agree that I'm partially saying this out of pure opportunism (I'm delivering Java courses for Sun Education, and, of course, I would be the first one to deliver Scala courses). Awesome idea. Would be great to establish some kind of curriculum with joint teaching material to be able to offer courses worldwide. Luc On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:40 PM, David Pollak feeder.of.the.be...@gmail.com wrote: A big congratulations to the authors as well as the whole Scala community... Yet another proof point that 2009 is the year of Scala. Rock On! On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:34 AM, TylerWeir tyler.w...@gmail.comwrote: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=54862 Quote: Here are the top 10 selling books at the JavaOne
Re: [scala] Re: [Lift] Programming in Scala #5, Lift Book #8, Beginning Scala #9
Since the topic seems to have morphed into learning Scala and Lift by immersion in a day, as a recent Scala convert, I can't begin to emphasize how important it is to have the build infrastructure all done in a simple way to let novices focus on Scala. Lift is a good example where you have no choice and just follow magic Maven incantations. Another is Processing in Scala, where you can just do small sketches. If the assumption is that it is the Java crowd which comes to JVM mostly, it doesn't bootstrap non-JVM folks like those coming from Ruby and Haskell/OCaml. So I'm glad David covers the build systems in his book; there should really be an easier way to begin without making choices between Maven, SBT, Buildr, Ant, etc.! Nothing more complex than a good old command line and a Makefile in the same directory... Ideally SBT becomes a part of Scala and you'll have a --make option, or something like that. Cheers, Alexy --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [scala] Re: [Lift] Programming in Scala #5, Lift Book #8, Beginning Scala #9
I must say, I have not met a build system (besides automake) that exceeded make in complexity. The amount of funny exceptions to rules is astounding. I had far less trouble learning maven (in all its complexity) Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2009, at 4:56 PM, Alexy Khrabrov delivera...@gmail.com wrote: Since the topic seems to have morphed into learning Scala and Lift by immersion in a day, as a recent Scala convert, I can't begin to emphasize how important it is to have the build infrastructure all done in a simple way to let novices focus on Scala. Lift is a good example where you have no choice and just follow magic Maven incantations. Another is Processing in Scala, where you can just do small sketches. If the assumption is that it is the Java crowd which comes to JVM mostly, it doesn't bootstrap non-JVM folks like those coming from Ruby and Haskell/OCaml. So I'm glad David covers the build systems in his book; there should really be an easier way to begin without making choices between Maven, SBT, Buildr, Ant, etc.! Nothing more complex than a good old command line and a Makefile in the same directory... Ideally SBT becomes a part of Scala and you'll have a --make option, or something like that. Cheers, Alexy --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[Lift] Programming in Scala #5, Lift Book #8, Beginning Scala #9
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=54862 Quote: Here are the top 10 selling books at the JavaOne Bookstore. Are these a trend? You decide. 1. JavaFX: Building Rich Internet Applications - Addison Wesley ISBN: 013701287X 2. Essential JavaFX - PTR (out June 11, 2009) ISBN: 0137042795 3. Effective Java 2nd ed. - PTR ISBN: 0321356683 4. Java Puzzlers - Addison Wesley ISBN: 032133678X 5. Programming in Scala - Artima ISBN: 0981531601 6. Java Concurrency in Practice - Addison Wesley ISBN:0321349601 7. Beginning Java EE 5: From Novice to Professional - Apress ISBN: 1590594703 8. The Definitive Guide to Lift - Apress ISBN: 1430224215 9. Beginning Scala - Apress ISBN: 1430219890 10. OpenSolaris Bible - Wiley ISBN: 0470385480 Another chance for me to thank everyone involved. - dpp for building the framework and being more helpful than any person should be expected to be. - Derek and Marius for being excellent co-authors and about 8 times smarter than me. Huzza! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Lift group. To post to this group, send email to liftweb@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
