Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal for Stuckless Payment

2019-09-18 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Ohayou Hiroki-san, I agree this possibility. Of note is that this also helps support: 1. Cross-currency swaps without premium-free American Call Option. Exchanges will demand for a premium to be paid for revelation of the second preimage. 2. Non-custodial Escrow. The second preimage is sh

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal for Stuckless Payment

2019-09-18 Thread Hiroki Gondo
Hi all, I explained Stuckless Payments on the basis of PTLCs before and some people understood that this is a proposal that can be accomplished after PTLCs are introduced. But this can also be accomplished using HTLC variants that are not compatible with BOLT 1.x HTLCs. For simplicity, I'd like to

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal for Stuckless Payment

2019-06-27 Thread Hiroki Gondo
Hi ZmnSCPxj and Bastien, When I was putting together this proposal, I thought it would be difficult for me to consider all the security and privacy issues. I am very glad that you raised the possible issues. > So my opinion, it is best to retain this property of "D does not know payer A". I agre

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal for Stuckless Payment

2019-06-25 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning list, > Another thought, is that this may also solve the "American Call Option" > problem. > In this case, the key at the final step is the sum of the payer key and the > exchange key (`y0 + y1 + y2 + z` where payer knows `y0 + y1 + y2` and > exchange knows `z`). > Then intermedia

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal for Stuckless Payment

2019-06-25 Thread Bastien TEINTURIER
This is a very good proposal, thanks Hiroki for all those details it helped me learn a lot. If I'm not mistaken, https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/472.pdf has shown that we MUST add another round of communication if we want to avoid the wormhole attacks (and thus decorrelate payments). While I agree th

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal for Stuckless Payment

2019-06-25 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Hiroki, Thank you for this. It seems a good solution. And, it seems, yet another reason to move to payment point / scalar from payment hash / preimage. As I understand it, the `y0+y1+...` sums are also the blinding tweaks used for payment decorrelation. My understanding, they will

[Lightning-dev] Proposal for Stuckless Payment

2019-06-25 Thread Hiroki Gondo
Problem === With the current BOLT 1.x, there exists a theoretical possibility that payments get stuck. In the actual network, this problem appears to be significantly improved due to the maturity of each implementation and the preventive ping-before-commitment_signed [