Re: [Lightning-dev] Achieving Zero Downtime Splicing in Practice via Chain Signals

2022-07-01 Thread Olaoluwa Osuntokun
> That's not 100% reliable at all. How long to you want for the new gossip? So you know it's a new channel, with a new capacity (look at the on-chain output), between the same parties (assuming ppl use that multi-sig signal). If you attempt to route over it and have a stale policy, you'll get th

Re: [Lightning-dev] Achieving Zero Downtime Splicing in Practice via Chain Signals

2022-07-01 Thread Olaoluwa Osuntokun
Hi Lisa, > Adding a noticeable on-chain signal runs counter to the goal of the move > to taproot / gossip v2, which is to make lightning's onchain footprint > indistinguishable from any other onchain usage My model of gossip v2 is something like: * there's no longer a 1:1 mapping of channels a

Re: [Lightning-dev] Achieving Zero Downtime Splicing in Practice via Chain Signals

2022-06-29 Thread lisa neigut
Had another thought: if you've seen a chain close but also have a gossip message that indicates this is a splice, you SHOULD propagate that gossip more urgently/widely than any other gossip you've got. Adding an urgency metric to gossip is fuzzy to enforce... *handwaves*. You *do* get the onchain

Re: [Lightning-dev] Achieving Zero Downtime Splicing in Practice via Chain Signals

2022-06-29 Thread lisa neigut
Adding a noticeable on-chain signal runs counter to the goal of the move to taproot / gossip v2, which is to make lightning's onchain footprint indistinguishable from any other onchain usage. I'm admittedly a bit confused as to why onchain signals are even being seriously proposed. Aside from "in

Re: [Lightning-dev] Achieving Zero Downtime Splicing in Practice via Chain Signals

2022-06-29 Thread Rusty Russell
Olaoluwa Osuntokun writes: > Hi Rusty, > > Thanks for the feedback! > >> This is over-design: if you fail to get reliable gossip, your routing will >> suffer anyway. Nothing new here. > > Idk, it's pretty simple: you're already watching for closes, so if a close > looks a certain way, it's a spli

Re: [Lightning-dev] Achieving Zero Downtime Splicing in Practice via Chain Signals

2022-06-29 Thread Olaoluwa Osuntokun
Hi Rusty, Thanks for the feedback! > This is over-design: if you fail to get reliable gossip, your routing will > suffer anyway. Nothing new here. Idk, it's pretty simple: you're already watching for closes, so if a close looks a certain way, it's a splice. When you see that, you can even take

Re: [Lightning-dev] Achieving Zero Downtime Splicing in Practice via Chain Signals

2022-06-28 Thread Rusty Russell
Hi Roasbeef, This is over-design: if you fail to get reliable gossip, your routing will suffer anyway. Nothing new here. And if you *know* you're missing gossip, you can simply delay onchain closures for longer: since nodes should respect the old channel ids for a while anyway. Matt's proposal

[Lightning-dev] Achieving Zero Downtime Splicing in Practice via Chain Signals

2022-06-27 Thread Olaoluwa Osuntokun
Hi y'all, This mail was inspired by this [1] spec PR from Lisa. At a high level, it proposes the nodes add a delay between the time they see a channel closed on chain, to when they remove it from their local channel graph. The motive here is to give the gossip message that indicates a splice is in