Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-12-01 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning LL, > Back to the general topic. Perhaps a way of refining the proposal is the > following: > > 1. Drop idea of "stake certificates" in favor of a chaumian e-cash kind of > design. > 2. The owner (owners?) of leach LN UTXO can go to any node in the network and > request a kind of t

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-12-01 Thread Lloyd Fournier
> Loop attacks are not about loops, it only requires that the start and end of a payment are controlled by the same entity Thanks for clearing that up. I was referring to cycles in the payment paths where you get honest parties to forward your HTLC between themselves over and over again as part o

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-12-01 Thread Antoine Riard
Hello Zeeman, If I understand well the "point-to-point property" is the following : you can authenticate an incoming HTLC traffic from your neighbors owing to their expensive channels. My concern with this approach relies on the fact that a routing node isn't decisionary of the HTLC traffic goin

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-12-01 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning LL, and list, > That's a very interesting point. If we were to be able to prevent loop > attacks by the sender proving the path is well formed (without revealing who > they are or any of the other hops) would this be an alternative solution? > It seems to me that disabling loop att

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-30 Thread Lloyd Fournier
On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 7:34 PM Gleb Naumenko wrote: > Hi Lloyd, > > > I agree with Z that this proposal is missing a strong argument as to why > this is a better “proof-of-stake” than channel balances themselves. > > I think Z’s consideration is about the alternative Stake Certificates > propose

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-30 Thread Gleb Naumenko
Hi Lloyd, > I agree with Z that this proposal is missing a strong argument as to why this > is a better “proof-of-stake” than channel balances themselves. I think Z’s consideration is about the alternative Stake Certificates proposed by t-bast, where every link in the route proves something to

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-30 Thread Gleb Naumenko
Hi Dave, Thanks for the hard questions. >Can’t a malicious user get around this restriction by opening channels with themself? You are right, preventing this kind of Sybil attack is challenging, but I don’t think it’s a no-go. Three separate observations which make me positive about are: 1. Th

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-29 Thread Lloyd Fournier
Hi Gleb et al, I really appreciate the out-of-the-box thinking of this proposal. I will put to the side the very difficult task of creating a cryptosystem that efficiently achieves what's necessary for this to work because that seems not to be the main concern. I agree with Z that this proposal i

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-28 Thread David A. Harding
On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 11:40:46PM +0200, Gleb Naumenko wrote: > > Hello list, Gleb and Antoine, This is an interesting idea! Thank you for working on it. I had difficulty with one part of the proposal: > Should we allow holding *any* Bitcoins (not just LN channels) for Stake > Certific

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-27 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Andres, t-bast, Gleb, et al, > > But instead it could be a point-to-point property: each node provides its > > own stake certificate > > to the next node (and only to that node). Alice provides a stake > > certificate to Bob, then Bob > > provides a stake certificate to Carol, and

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-27 Thread Andrés G . Aragoneses
Hey, On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 at 19:18, Bastien TEINTURIER wrote: > Good morning list, > > This is an interesting approach to solve this problem, I really like the > idea. > It definitely deserves digging more into it: the fact that it doesn't add > an additional > payment makes it largely superior t

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-27 Thread Bastien TEINTURIER
Good morning list, This is an interesting approach to solve this problem, I really like the idea. It definitely deserves digging more into it: the fact that it doesn't add an additional payment makes it largely superior to upfront payment schemes in terms of UX. If we restrict these stake certifi

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-26 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Gleb, > Thank you for your interest :) > > > Quick question: if I am a routing node and receive a valid stake > > certificate, can I reuse this stake certificate on my own outgoing payments? > > That probably should be avoided, otherwise a mediocre routing node gets a lot > of jammi

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-26 Thread Gleb Naumenko
Thank you for your interest :) > Quick question: if I am a routing node and receive a valid stake certificate, > can I reuse this stake certificate on my own outgoing payments? That probably should be avoided, otherwise a mediocre routing node gets a lot of jamming opportunities for no good. Y

Re: [Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-26 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Gleb and Antoine, This is certainly interesting! Quick question: if I am a routing node and receive a valid stake certificate, can I reuse this stake certificate on my own outgoing payments? It seems to me that the proof-of-stake-certificate should also somehow integrate a detail

[Lightning-dev] Mitigating Channel Jamming with Stake Certificates

2020-11-26 Thread Gleb Naumenko
Hello list, In this post, we explore a different approach to channel jamming mitigation. We won’t talk about the background here, for the problem description as well as some proposed solutions (mainly upfront payment schemes), see [1]. We’re suggesting using UTXO ownership proofs (a.k.a. Stake