Re: [Lightning-dev] #zerobasefee

2021-08-15 Thread Stefan Richter
Good morning Zmn! That is indeed precisely what we do. We usually quantize the min-cost flow into minimum shares of, say, 10kSat to 100kSat. This makes the algorithm run faster and loses very little precision. It also gives a simple way of dealing with (reasonable) min-htlc-size values. Cheers,

Re: [Lightning-dev] #zerobasefee

2021-08-16 Thread Stefan Richter
Hi Zmn et al., >I propose that the algorithm be modified >as such, that is, it *ignore* the fee scheme. We actually started out thinking like this in the event we couldn't find a proper way to handle fees, and the real world experiments we've done so far have only involved probability costs, no

Re: [Lightning-dev] #zerobasefee

2021-08-17 Thread Stefan Richter
Good morning Zmn! ZmnSCPxj schrieb am Mo., 16. Aug. 2021, 10:27: > > A reason why I suggest this is that the cost function in actual > implementation is *already* IMO overloaded. > > In particular, actual implementations will have some kind of conversion > between cltv-delta and fees-at-node. >

Re: [Lightning-dev] Fee Budgets: A Possible Path Towards Unified Cost Functions For Lightning Pathfinding Problems

2021-08-21 Thread Stefan Richter
Hi Zmn! That is some amazing lateral thinking you have been applying there. I'm quite certain I haven't understood everything fully, but it has been highly entertaining to read. Will have to give it a closer read when I get some time. As a first impression, here are some preliminary observations:

Re: [Lightning-dev] Fee Budgets: A Possible Path Towards Unified Cost Functions For Lightning Pathfinding Problems

2021-08-24 Thread Stefan Richter
Good Morning Zmn! If you'd like to understand the min-cost flow problem and algorithms better, I would really recommend the textbook we have been citing throughout the paper. The algorithm you have found has a few shortcomings. It'll only work for the linear min-cost flow problem, and it is very

Re: [Lightning-dev] Handling nonzerobasefee when using Pickhard-Richter algo variants

2021-08-30 Thread Stefan Richter
Hi Zmn! While you have some interesting thoughts about the implementation of min-cost flow based routing, I feel that there are at least two grave misunderstandings here: First, the problem with the base-fee or any similar constant is that they make the fee function concave at the point where the

Re: [Lightning-dev] Do we really want users to solve an NP-hard problem when they wish to find a cheap way of paying each other on the Lightning Network?

2021-08-31 Thread Stefan Richter
Am Di., 31. Aug. 2021 um 10:29 Uhr schrieb ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev : > For myself, I think a variant of Pickhardt-Richter payments can be created > which *adapts to* the reality of the current network where `base_fee > 0` is > common, but is biased against `base_fee > 0`, can be a bridge from

Re: [Lightning-dev] Route reliability<->fee trade-off control parameter

2021-11-15 Thread Stefan Richter
Actually, if you look into our paper, the theory tells us the following: 1) A weighted sum of different cost aspects is attractive because it remains convex if all the aspects are convex themselves. This cannot be said of other methods like the harmonic mean, which kind of forces our hand if we ai

Re: [Lightning-dev] Route reliability<->fee trade-off control parameter

2021-11-15 Thread Stefan Richter
It seems to me there can be no such law unless P=NP. Which would also imply Bitcoin is worthless. Joost Jager schrieb am Mo., 15. Nov. 2021, 13:44: > One direction that I explored is to start with a statement by the user in > this form: > > "If there is a route with a success probability of 50%,

Re: [Lightning-dev] Route reliability<->fee trade-off control parameter

2021-11-22 Thread Stefan Richter
I also don't believe putting a choice of more or less seconds expectation in the UI makes for a great user experience. IMHO the goal should just be: give the user an estimate of fees necessary to succeed within a reasonable time. Maybe give them an option to optimize for fees only if they are reall

Re: [Lightning-dev] Code for sub second runtime of piecewise linarization to quickly approximate the minimum convex cost flow problem (makes fast multi part payments with large amounts possible)

2022-03-20 Thread Stefan Richter
Good morning everyone, with regards to zerobasefee, I think that the argument that HTLCs are costly doesn't quite hold up because they are always free to an attacker as it stands. However, I fully agree with Zmn's opinion that it's not necessary to bang our head against any opposition to this beca