Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-09-09 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Dario, > We went ahead with this idea and implemented it in muun wallet as an > experiment: you can scan an invoice, and if there isn't a route with enough > capacity to the destination node, we'll open a channel directly and, once > it's locked, fulfill the payment using that

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-15 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Dario, > Having said that, if the usability of the scheme "open channel, wait until > it's locked, then send HTLC payment" were deemed good enough, then routing > nodes could implement this idea to route payments "just in time", even if > there aren't any pre-existing routes to

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-15 Thread Dario Sneidermanis
Hello Ecurrencyhodler, We've been considering this flow for muun wallet, which has native submarine swap functionality, so it wouldn't be too difficult to implement. However, there's some problems with the idea: * As ZmnSCPxj notes, the push_msat functionality doesn't work for non-custodial

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-14 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Ecurrencyhodler, It seems to me a trusted model then. Regardless of who makes the channel (the payee cannot determine who the payer is anyway) the payee cannot trustlessly release the product until the channel is deeply confirmed, else your security is only 0-conf, not off-chain.

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-14 Thread ecurrencyhodler
>So would `push_msat`; until confirmed deeply the channel opening can still be cancelled by double-spending and it would be foolhardy to deliver the product until the channel is deeply confirmed to be opened. Okay so there's 2 situations here I'd like to explore: 1. Bob -> routing node -> Me 2.

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-14 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Ecurrencyhodler, > Hi ZmnSCPxj!  > > Submarine swaps are a great current solution, but we still have to wait for > confirmations. So would `push_msat`; until confirmed deeply the channel opening can still be cancelled by double-spending and it would be foolhardy to deliver the

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-13 Thread ecurrencyhodler
Hi ZmnSCPxj! Submarine swaps are a great current solution, but we still have to wait for confirmations. >Further, while it involves fees, it does give you control over what nodes you make channels with, and would be a good investment in your future accessibility over the Lightning Network. What

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-13 Thread ZmnSCPxj via Lightning-dev
Good morning Ecurrencyhodler, A current and practical way to set up incoming liquidity would be to take some onchain funds, create a channel to a high-uptime node on the network (just run an autopilot), then use a submarine swap (i.e. pay offchain funds to buy onchain funds). Then you can

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-13 Thread ecurrencyhodler
Hi Hampus! >It won't work out in the long run because if you connect say mobile wallets this way, one mobile could be offline, which locks the funds for the other part. Hmm I didn't consider mobile wallets being offline for a long period of time. That's a good point. But if smaller channels are

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-13 Thread ecurrencyhodler
Hey Rusty. Thanks for your feedback. >If you publish your node address, Bob can already get this from the gossip network, or the DNS seed as a last resort (and I expect implementations to start doing this: I did it manually to buy a thelightningconference.com ticket recently, for example). This

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-13 Thread Hampus Sjöberg
While I do agree that this is a problem that we needs to be addressed somehow, I don't agree on your proposal because I don't think we should connect two end-users this way. It won't work out in the long run because if you connect say mobile wallets this way, one mobile could be offline, which

Re: [Lightning-dev] Proposal: Automated Inbound Liquidity With Invoices

2019-08-13 Thread Rusty Russell
Ecurrencyhodler Blockchains writes: >1. Bob wants to send me 100,000 sats. >2. My node just came online and has 0 inbound liquidity. >3. I create an invoice for 100,000 sats. My LN node recognizes I have 0 >inbound liquidity so my wallet also embeds my URI in the invoice. >4.