Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On 26 juin 2012, at 18:26, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It’s clearly a big problem, but this isn’t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I’ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. While I won't be as audacious to state that this is a cure-all, it lends more depth to your communication partners than the rather anonymous style of communicating through electronic letters does, and has a lasting effect. It has been more effective in deflating tensions permanently than other measures I can think of. It is, in a way, pitiful that this should work, but then it still would be more of a pity not to make use of that. I am living in a sort-of commune in a rural region, in a house next to the stables of a riding school (my girl friend makes a somewhat unimpressive living from that). I seem to remember that Werner was away until the middle of August, and the school holidays last until August 21st. There is no real need to synchronize to the school holidays since our activities are more or less independent from that of the school. We could, however, target Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st (or, if it is more convenient for people, one week later) for a meeting for programming, composing and talking. It is not like there is a shortage of programming projects one could tackle together. Guilev2 migration anybody? We could do a few workshops, like working on the parser, fiddling with the backend, introduction to GOOPS, becoming friends with the garbage collector, scything stinging nettles, shoveling heaps of crap (this can be even practiced without a computer). Accommodation can be arranged for a number of people. If the basic mailing list relations of at least some core of developers have become more relaxed, it helps for cooperating in creating a more welcoming atmosphere. One can better compensate for other people's fault. I am, of course, a natural contender for organizing such a meeting since few people would likely deny that my own ways of interacting with others on our lists could benefit a lot from improvement. So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Yes, it sounds silly as a means to address the GOP question. But once I have ruled out all mature and sane ways of addressing a problem, I have not rarely have had some success trying the silly ones. Are you with me? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel Hey all, Sorry for the long delay. The second batch of dates in August are doable for me (Friday the 24th to Tuesday the 28th). Keep me posted! ~Mike ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It’s clearly a big problem, but this isn’t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I’ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. While I won't be as audacious to state that this is a cure-all, it lends more depth to your communication partners than the rather anonymous style of communicating through electronic letters does, and has a lasting effect. It has been more effective in deflating tensions permanently than other measures I can think of. It is, in a way, pitiful that this should work, but then it still would be more of a pity not to make use of that. I am living in a sort-of commune in a rural region, in a house next to the stables of a riding school (my girl friend makes a somewhat unimpressive living from that). I seem to remember that Werner was away until the middle of August, and the school holidays last until August 21st. There is no real need to synchronize to the school holidays since our activities are more or less independent from that of the school. We could, however, target Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st (or, if it is more convenient for people, one week later) for a meeting for programming, composing and talking. It is not like there is a shortage of programming projects one could tackle together. Guilev2 migration anybody? We could do a few workshops, like working on the parser, fiddling with the backend, introduction to GOOPS, becoming friends with the garbage collector, scything stinging nettles, shoveling heaps of crap (this can be even practiced without a computer). Accommodation can be arranged for a number of people. If the basic mailing list relations of at least some core of developers have become more relaxed, it helps for cooperating in creating a more welcoming atmosphere. One can better compensate for other people's fault. I am, of course, a natural contender for organizing such a meeting since few people would likely deny that my own ways of interacting with others on our lists could benefit a lot from improvement. So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Yes, it sounds silly as a means to address the GOP question. But once I have ruled out all mature and sane ways of addressing a problem, I have not rarely have had some success trying the silly ones. Are you with me? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It???s clearly a big problem, but this isn???t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I???ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. I think this is an excellent idea. Anything that gets us away from typing at each other and towards human contact is a good thing. Cheers, Colin. -- Colin Hall ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 05:44:19PM +0100, Colin Hall wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. I think this is an excellent idea. Anything that gets us away from typing at each other and towards human contact is a good thing. A less expensive option could be skype chats (or a different program if people wanted an open-source one). These could even become regular events, such as every Wed at 10:00 UST and Thurs at 23:00 UST. (picking dates/times randomly) I'm not suggesting video, since even my university internet connection doesn't handle video chats well, but voice could work out. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On 26 juin 2012, at 18:26, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It’s clearly a big problem, but this isn’t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I’ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. While I won't be as audacious to state that this is a cure-all, it lends more depth to your communication partners than the rather anonymous style of communicating through electronic letters does, and has a lasting effect. It has been more effective in deflating tensions permanently than other measures I can think of. It is, in a way, pitiful that this should work, but then it still would be more of a pity not to make use of that. I am living in a sort-of commune in a rural region, in a house next to the stables of a riding school (my girl friend makes a somewhat unimpressive living from that). I seem to remember that Werner was away until the middle of August, and the school holidays last until August 21st. There is no real need to synchronize to the school holidays since our activities are more or less independent from that of the school. We could, however, target Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st (or, if it is more convenient for people, one week later) for a meeting for programming, composing and talking. It is not like there is a shortage of programming projects one could tackle together. Guilev2 migration anybody? We could do a few workshops, like working on the parser, fiddling with the backend, introduction to GOOPS, becoming friends with the garbage collector, scything stinging nettles, shoveling heaps of crap (this can be even practiced without a computer). Accommodation can be arranged for a number of people. If the basic mailing list relations of at least some core of developers have become more relaxed, it helps for cooperating in creating a more welcoming atmosphere. One can better compensate for other people's fault. I am, of course, a natural contender for organizing such a meeting since few people would likely deny that my own ways of interacting with others on our lists could benefit a lot from improvement. So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Yes, it sounds silly as a means to address the GOP question. But once I have ruled out all mature and sane ways of addressing a problem, I have not rarely have had some success trying the silly ones. Are you with me? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel This is an excellent idea. I'll be away on those dates for my grandfather's 90th birthday, but I hope you guys can pull it off! We did something like this in Paris a year back and a good time was had by all. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Any idea about the connectivity with nearby airports? Flying to Dortmund seems to involve three flights over 2000 euro, whereas flying to Dusseldorf is 250 euro. It's probably safe to assume that Germany has good railways for Dusseldorf to Dortmund? (or maybe Essen or Cologne?) - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 1:26 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It’s clearly a big problem, but this isn’t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I’ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. Amen to that. Jan and I had some spectularly bad fights over patch handling (mainly Jan complaining of mine). Those fights always were caused by discussing things in a hurry over e-mail, and were always resolved when we called to discuss things over the telephone. I warmly recommend getting together, hacking, thinking and drinking some beer (or whatever your preferred beverage). Are you with me? -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
