Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: [ let's make a LilyPond meeting ] So, is the date ultimately set? (Friday the 24th to Tuesday the 28th?) I confirm my presence with 98% certainty (2% are reserved for earthquakes, falling meteorites, bus/train strikes and illness) for at least 3 days, but hopefully all 5 of them. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: [ let's make a LilyPond meeting ] So, is the date ultimately set? (Friday the 24th to Tuesday the 28th?) I confirm my presence with 98% certainty (2% are reserved for earthquakes, falling meteorites, bus/train strikes and illness) for at least 3 days, but hopefully all 5 of them. Yes, the date is set. Just the official invitation is still in the works: the usual story: I get distracted by trying to get a block of parser changes finished. As for travelers from afar: planes can be booked to Dortmund, Essen, or Düsseldorf in order of slightly more travel time and train fare, with Köln being still tolerable. Travelers from France might want to check www.thalys.fr, particularly group fares. Unfortunately, it is only Cologne that gets reasonably frequent service, arrival and departure times for Essen or Duisburg are awful. The bus station (700m or so) is Waltrop Elmenhorst, the underground from Dortmund main station (25 minutes) which should be the most important target for arrival plans is Brambauer Verkehrshof (5 minutes by car from here), probably the next train station (15 minutes by car) with early morning/late night service is Dortmund Mengede. If travel times don't permit otherwise, it makes sense to arrive the evening before or leave early in the morning on Wednesday. I think that visitors from Germany will be more likely there at the weekend: that makes entry-level and programming and some architecture courses sit best there. As many developers as possible should roll at least one development release: so it makes sense introducing at least the first batch of developers right on Friday. So if you are booking, plan for the 24th to 28th date. I'd like to get some stuff started on Friday already, and finish the official part about Tuesday afternoon. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 5:42 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: [ lots of travel info ] Thanks for tips! I'm not totally sure what my route will be, but i'll be glad if there'll be a chance to finish the journey in company :) Btw, should i prepare myself linguistically? My German is /very/ rusty... i hope that German people speak English well :) cheers, Jank ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 09:50:58PM +0200, Janek Warchoł wrote: On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 5:42 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: [ lots of travel info ] Thanks for tips! I'm not totally sure what my route will be, but i'll be glad if there'll be a chance to finish the journey in company :) Btw, should i prepare myself linguistically? My German is /very/ rusty... i hope that German people speak English well :) I had absolutely no trouble in Munich and Berlin -- actually, Berlin was even easier to communicate in English than Glasgow! It's possible that people out in the country won't be as fluent in English as people in the big cities, though. When I get the official invitation, I'll book my flights to Dusseldorf. It looks like my arrival times at DUS airport are 12:10, 17:20, or 19:20. If there's other people flying to that airport, I'm happy to wait around for a few hours so that we can do the within-Germany travel together. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On 26 juin 2012, at 18:26, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It’s clearly a big problem, but this isn’t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I’ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. While I won't be as audacious to state that this is a cure-all, it lends more depth to your communication partners than the rather anonymous style of communicating through electronic letters does, and has a lasting effect. It has been more effective in deflating tensions permanently than other measures I can think of. It is, in a way, pitiful that this should work, but then it still would be more of a pity not to make use of that. I am living in a sort-of commune in a rural region, in a house next to the stables of a riding school (my girl friend makes a somewhat unimpressive living from that). I seem to remember that Werner was away until the middle of August, and the school holidays last until August 21st. There is no real need to synchronize to the school holidays since our activities are more or less independent from that of the school. We could, however, target Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st (or, if it is more convenient for people, one week later) for a meeting for programming, composing and talking. It is not like there is a shortage of programming projects one could tackle together. Guilev2 migration anybody? We could do a few workshops, like working on the parser, fiddling with the backend, introduction to GOOPS, becoming friends with the garbage collector, scything stinging nettles, shoveling heaps of crap (this can be even practiced without a computer). Accommodation can be arranged for a number of people. If the basic mailing list relations of at least some core of developers have become more relaxed, it helps for cooperating in creating a more welcoming atmosphere. One can better compensate for other people's fault. I am, of course, a natural contender for organizing such a meeting since few people would likely deny that my own ways of interacting with others on our lists could benefit a lot from improvement. So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Yes, it sounds silly as a means to address the GOP question. But once I have ruled out all mature and sane ways of addressing a problem, I have not rarely have had some success trying the silly ones. Are you with me? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel Hey all, Sorry for the long delay. The second batch of dates in August are doable for me (Friday the 24th to Tuesday the 28th). Keep me posted! ~Mike ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Am 29.06.2012 08:05, schrieb m...@apollinemike.com: On 26 juin 2012, at 18:26, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It’s clearly a big problem, but this isn’t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I’ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. While I won't be as audacious to state that this is a cure-all, it lends more depth to your communication partners than the rather anonymous style of communicating through electronic letters does, and has a lasting effect. It has been more effective in deflating tensions permanently than other measures I can think of. It is, in a way, pitiful that this should work, but then it still would be more of a pity not to make use of that. I am living in a sort-of commune in a rural region, in a house next to the stables of a riding school (my girl friend makes a somewhat unimpressive living from that). I seem to remember that Werner was away until the middle of August, and the school holidays last until August 21st. There is no real need to synchronize to the school holidays since our activities are more or less independent from that of the school. We could, however, target Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st (or, if it is more convenient for people, one week later) for a meeting for programming, composing and talking. It is not like there is a shortage of programming projects one could tackle together. Guilev2 migration anybody? We could do a few workshops, like working on the parser, fiddling with the backend, introduction to GOOPS, becoming friends with the garbage collector, scything stinging nettles, shoveling heaps of crap (this can be even practiced without a computer). Accommodation can be arranged for a number of people. If the basic mailing list relations of at least some core of developers have become more relaxed, it helps for cooperating in creating a more welcoming atmosphere. One can better compensate for other people's fault. I am, of course, a natural contender for organizing such a meeting since few people would likely deny that my own ways of interacting with others on our lists could benefit a lot from improvement. So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Yes, it sounds silly as a means to address the GOP question. But once I have ruled out all mature and sane ways of addressing a problem, I have not rarely have had some success trying the silly ones. Are you with me? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel Hey all, Sorry for the long delay. The second batch of dates in August are doable for me (Friday the 24th to Tuesday the 28th). Keep me posted! Would be ok for me, too. Marc ~Mike ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com writes: Sorry for the long delay. The second batch of dates in August are doable for me (Friday the 24th to Tuesday the 28th). Keep me posted! Ok with those who already said they could make the first date? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: Having never used scheme or C++ in lilypond to fix a bug, I'm curious to find out how it's done. The Graham Way of fixing bugs: mark the issue as Invalid ;-) ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Sorry for the long delay. The second batch of dates in August are doable for me (Friday the 24th to Tuesday the 28th). Keep me posted! Ok with those who already said they could make the first date? I've booked my flights (15th to 20th) already some weeks ago, but this shouldn't be a problem for all of you to meet in the 24th to 28th range. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes: Sorry for the long delay. The second batch of dates in August are doable for me (Friday the 24th to Tuesday the 28th). Keep me posted! Ok with those who already said they could make the first date? I've booked my flights (15th to 20th) already some weeks ago, but this shouldn't be a problem for all of you to meet in the 24th to 28th range. Pity. If you say you booked your flights already for the sake of visiting your relatives, this would probably imply that you would not likely have had more than a day to spare anyway, right? I hate decision making. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: Having never used scheme or C++ in lilypond to fix a bug, I'm curious to find out how it's done. The Graham Way of fixing bugs: mark the issue as Invalid ;-) The David way of fixing bugs: rewrite everything completely different, getting an entirely different set of bugs. Those are family then. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Pity. If you say you booked your flights already for the sake of visiting your relatives, this would probably imply that you would not likely have had more than a day to spare anyway, right? Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Assuming from the contents that this was intended as a public response (the foreigners bit does not make sense otherwise). Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes: Pity. If you say you booked your flights already for the sake of visiting your relatives, this would probably imply that you would not likely have had more than a day to spare anyway, right? Yes? :-) Somehow my single-liner vanished. I would have time more than one day, but not from early in the morning to late in the evening. [To all foreigners: Don't worry if you don't understand the rest of the message :-)] My children's appartment is in Klinikviertel, so it's easy to use the tram from Brambauer to Stadtgarten, then walking a few minutes. Well, if there are no other relevant feedbacks today, I am moving for the second date then (August 24th to 28th). It is a pity that we won't get everyone covered, but that's life. It doesn't preclude at least us two meeting for a beer, though. Or if it is really important to someone (not a crowd) to meet you, to come early and help setting up stuff. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On 29 juin 2012, at 16:59, David Kastrup wrote: Assuming from the contents that this was intended as a public response (the foreigners bit does not make sense otherwise). Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes: Pity. If you say you booked your flights already for the sake of visiting your relatives, this would probably imply that you would not likely have had more than a day to spare anyway, right? Yes? :-) Somehow my single-liner vanished. I would have time more than one day, but not from early in the morning to late in the evening. [To all foreigners: Don't worry if you don't understand the rest of the message :-)] My children's appartment is in Klinikviertel, so it's easy to use the tram from Brambauer to Stadtgarten, then walking a few minutes. Well, if there are no other relevant feedbacks today, I am moving for the second date then (August 24th to 28th). It is a pity that we won't get everyone covered, but that's life. It doesn't preclude at least us two meeting for a beer, though. Or if it is really important to someone (not a crowd) to meet you, to come early and help setting up stuff. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel I can be there for those dates (24th to 28th). Perhaps not all as I am moving apartments around the 28th but definitely for 2 or 3 days! ~Mike ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Il giorno ven, 29/06/2012 alle 16.59 +0200, David Kastrup ha scritto: Well, if there are no other relevant feedbacks today, I am moving for the second date then (August 24th to 28th). It is a pity that we won't get everyone covered, but that's life. It doesn't preclude at least us two meeting for a beer, though. Or if it is really important to someone (not a crowd) to meet you, to come early and help setting up stuff. I'll be somewhere between Paris and Pisa (Italy) in August and September; I'll be happy to come if I can make it between August 24th to 28th, but at the moment I have no preference for these dates or the week before. Best, John ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:26 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: [...] So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Excellent! Both options are ok to me, with a small preference for the later one. best, Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 5:05 PM, m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I can be there for those dates (24th to 28th). Perhaps not all as I am moving apartments around the 28th but definitely for 2 or 3 days! Oh, then please let me know if you're flying from France, perhaps I could tag along! Cheers, Valentin. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 11:03:27PM +0200, Valentin Villenave wrote: On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 5:05 PM, m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I can be there for those dates (24th to 28th). Perhaps not all as I am moving apartments around the 28th but definitely for 2 or 3 days! Oh, then please let me know if you're flying from France, perhaps I could tag along! Air France has direct flights from CDG to DUS, 1 hour 15 minutes. I think it's 4 per day? Round trip for 122 euro. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Han-Wen Nienhuys writes: is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. Amen to that. +100 Jan and I had some spectularly bad fights over patch handling (mainly Jan complaining of mine). Those fights always were caused by discussing things in a hurry over e-mail, and were always resolved when we called to discuss things over the telephone. Later, possibly when we learned to fight better and more viciously, esp. Han-Wen became very good at phoning before things got out of hand. I remember that by the frequency of email exchanges even, rather than their content, a must-phone-now moment could be determined. I warmly recommend getting together, hacking, thinking and drinking some beer (or whatever your preferred beverage). ..or talking when you planned hacking, or hacking when you planned talking..or preparing and testing new dishes..or both. Jan -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:13:21PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Düsseldorf -- Dortmund -- 45 minutes hourly Sounds good. Ok, I'm in as long as we have at least 3 developers other than myself. So far there's David and Werner. Mike, are you completely unavailable for that period? I recall that David suggested two weekends; you're away for both? That's a shame. What are the details of accommodation and food (prices and availability)? are there nearby restaurants we'd be going to, or a large kitchen, or...? I don't know exactly what a sort-of commune in a rural region means. :) If there's a large kitchen with shared meals, then I will cover all non-alcohol grocery bills. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
I don't know exactly what a sort-of commune in a rural region means. :) This essentially means that you are eating the same as the horses. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:13:21PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Düsseldorf -- Dortmund -- 45 minutes hourly Sounds good. Ok, I'm in as long as we have at least 3 developers other than myself. So far there's David and Werner. Mike, are you completely unavailable for that period? I recall that David suggested two weekends; you're away for both? That's a shame. What are the details of accommodation and food (prices and availability)? are there nearby restaurants we'd be going to, or a large kitchen, or...? I don't know exactly what a sort-of commune in a rural region means. :) If there's a large kitchen with shared meals, then I will cover all non-alcohol grocery bills. The kitchen is large enough to seat everybody involved in the preparation of meals. Since my girl has summer camp and similar things where one needs to feed 18 girls or so, there is some experience in low-effort food preparation. Nearby restaurant is not that much of an option, at least not in walking distance. We have a favorite fast food Indian who makes Indian, Chinese, Italian stuff and delivers: it is likely that we'll employ his services more than once with everybody footing his own bill (typically sub-€10). Cheap and affordable. Sort-of commune means that we have a common kitchen and bathroom and living room (which will also serve as a sleeping hall), and separate rooms for my girl friend, myself and two other roomies. One of them is rarely at home; using her room is likely an option. There is no shortage of space for setting up tents if that's an option for some people. If necessary, even in a distance suitable for snorers. Accommodation elsewhere would require some planning ahead. Werner mentioned relatives in Dortmund; if he plans on commuting by whatever means, it would likely extend the choice of hotels readily accessible to people preferring separate sleeping arrangements. Rural means 2.5km to the nearest bakery or other shop. On foot you can shave 500m off by cutting through woods and a clay quarry, but there is no footpath, the original bridge having been burnt decades ago, according to hearsay by one of the nearby farmers in order to fend off townies. 300m to the next house, 900m to the next bus station. The next bus station is Waltrop Elmenhorst. If the traveling information claims something else, don't heed it unless you enjoy cutting through a clay quarry and woods without footpath. More likely than not, you'll just take the subway U41 Brambauer from Dortmund main station to its end station and let yourself get picked up there unless a bus to Waltrop departs in a reasonable amount of time (once or twice hourly depending on time of day). I hope that the $#!@ rye field beside the house will have been harvested by that time, but in any case, allergy sufferers should pack sufficient amounts of whatever they might need to survive. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes: I don't know exactly what a sort-of commune in a rural region means. :) This essentially means that you are eating the same as the horses. I could arrange for that, but for feeling horseish, it would probably suffice to offer sleeping on straw in the barn. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Am 27.06.2012 14:14, schrieb Graham Percival: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:13:21PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Düsseldorf -- Dortmund -- 45 minutes hourly Sounds good. Ok, I'm in as long as we have at least 3 developers other than myself. So far there's David and Werner. Well, I do not count myself as developer, but I'd like to join the meeting, too. Dortmund is about 550 km from where I live, but I have a car that's big enough to get some sleep and carry some guitar with me (I am a left-hander). Regards, Marc ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 07:41:51PM +0200, Marc Hohl wrote: Well, I do not count myself as developer, You've got git push access. Feel like using that to add yourself to Documentation/authors.itexi ? :) - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 08:05:40PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: As to not counting oneself as developer: I think it would make sense to try workshops on programming topics, also with the aim of putting people's wishes into code and giving them a hang of how to continue. Yes, I'm hoping to have a session or two of introductory programming in lilypond. Having never used scheme or C++ in lilypond to fix a bug, I'm curious to find out how it's done. Anyway, it sounds as though we have three developers other than me going, so count me in. Maybe it's time to write something for the -user list, and/or have another LilyPond Report to see if there's more widespread interest? - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 08:05:40PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: As to not counting oneself as developer: I think it would make sense to try workshops on programming topics, also with the aim of putting people's wishes into code and giving them a hang of how to continue. Yes, I'm hoping to have a session or two of introductory programming in lilypond. Having never used scheme or C++ in lilypond to fix a bug, I'm curious to find out how it's done. Anyway, it sounds as though we have three developers other than me going, so count me in. Maybe it's time to write something for the -user list, and/or have another LilyPond Report to see if there's more widespread interest? We are not quite definite on the date yet, are we? Or have we settled on the first one already? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It???s clearly a big problem, but this isn???t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I???ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. I think this is an excellent idea. Anything that gets us away from typing at each other and towards human contact is a good thing. Cheers, Colin. -- Colin Hall ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 05:44:19PM +0100, Colin Hall wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. I think this is an excellent idea. Anything that gets us away from typing at each other and towards human contact is a good thing. A less expensive option could be skype chats (or a different program if people wanted an open-source one). These could even become regular events, such as every Wed at 10:00 UST and Thurs at 23:00 UST. (picking dates/times randomly) I'm not suggesting video, since even my university internet connection doesn't handle video chats well, but voice could work out. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 05:44:19PM +0100, Colin Hall wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. I think this is an excellent idea. Anything that gets us away from typing at each other and towards human contact is a good thing. A less expensive option could be skype chats (or a different program if people wanted an open-source one). These could even become regular events, such as every Wed at 10:00 UST and Thurs at 23:00 UST. (picking dates/times randomly) I'm not suggesting video, since even my university internet connection doesn't handle video chats well, but voice could work out. Yes and no. That's more or less 1:1 and you don't develop a feeling for what makes the quiet one sitting in the corner tick. The advantage of a gettogether is that you don't just see people when they are active but also get a feeling for how they react. The moments where you don't really need to say anything in order to communicate are a bit rare on the phone. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losingdevelopers? (discuss responses))
Colin Hall wrote Tuesday, June 26, 2012 5:44 PM On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It???s clearly a big problem, but this isn???t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I???ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. I think this is an excellent idea. I agree; although I'm afraid I can't be present. I'm not really a core developer, so couldn't contribute much to the discussion anyway. Trevor ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
David Kastrup d...@gnu.org writes: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 05:44:19PM +0100, Colin Hall wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. I think this is an excellent idea. Anything that gets us away from typing at each other and towards human contact is a good thing. A less expensive option could be skype chats (or a different program if people wanted an open-source one). These could even become regular events, such as every Wed at 10:00 UST and Thurs at 23:00 UST. (picking dates/times randomly) I'm not suggesting video, since even my university internet connection doesn't handle video chats well, but voice could work out. Yes and no. That's more or less 1:1 and you don't develop a feeling for what makes the quiet one sitting in the corner tick. The advantage of a gettogether is that you don't just see people when they are active but also get a feeling for how they react. The moments where you don't really need to say anything in order to communicate are a bit rare on the phone. The last institute I had been working at at the university was very successful in getting industry cooperations going, and that was partly because of the two professors. With considerable amount of simplification, you might say that one of the professors was hard to beat when engaging his brain, and the other was hard to beat when engaging his liver. The second probably being more important to the continuing success of the institute. Now don't get me wrong: both were not deficient in the respective other departments, but when this organic dividing line was the one likely tipping the scale, they knew when to let the other deal with the respective engagements. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On 26 juin 2012, at 18:26, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It’s clearly a big problem, but this isn’t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I’ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. While I won't be as audacious to state that this is a cure-all, it lends more depth to your communication partners than the rather anonymous style of communicating through electronic letters does, and has a lasting effect. It has been more effective in deflating tensions permanently than other measures I can think of. It is, in a way, pitiful that this should work, but then it still would be more of a pity not to make use of that. I am living in a sort-of commune in a rural region, in a house next to the stables of a riding school (my girl friend makes a somewhat unimpressive living from that). I seem to remember that Werner was away until the middle of August, and the school holidays last until August 21st. There is no real need to synchronize to the school holidays since our activities are more or less independent from that of the school. We could, however, target Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st (or, if it is more convenient for people, one week later) for a meeting for programming, composing and talking. It is not like there is a shortage of programming projects one could tackle together. Guilev2 migration anybody? We could do a few workshops, like working on the parser, fiddling with the backend, introduction to GOOPS, becoming friends with the garbage collector, scything stinging nettles, shoveling heaps of crap (this can be even practiced without a computer). Accommodation can be arranged for a number of people. If the basic mailing list relations of at least some core of developers have become more relaxed, it helps for cooperating in creating a more welcoming atmosphere. One can better compensate for other people's fault. I am, of course, a natural contender for organizing such a meeting since few people would likely deny that my own ways of interacting with others on our lists could benefit a lot from improvement. So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Yes, it sounds silly as a means to address the GOP question. But once I have ruled out all mature and sane ways of addressing a problem, I have not rarely have had some success trying the silly ones. Are you with me? -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel This is an excellent idea. I'll be away on those dates for my grandfather's 90th birthday, but I hope you guys can pull it off! We did something like this in Paris a year back and a good time was had by all. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk writes: Colin Hall wrote Tuesday, June 26, 2012 5:44 PM On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It???s clearly a big problem, but this isn???t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I???ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. I think this is an excellent idea. I agree; although I'm afraid I can't be present. I'm not really a core developer, so couldn't contribute much to the discussion anyway. The idea of workshopping is to open perspectives. It is not like LilyPond itself is documented in a degree where you can get a full picture just by looking at it. The grounds are nice around here, and there is recording and Midi equipment that might be nice playing with and several instruments (accordions, keyboards, guitar, and if there is interest, I can borrow back my violin from my mother). The nicest regular TeX conference I know is in Bachotek, Poland. There is just a single track but over five days, and if you instead meet with others, run in the vicinity, go swimming, meet with song and beer at the bonfire and so on and so on, you can get a lot of thinking and not thinking done. It is basically in the middle of the woods. A lot of celebrities in the TeX world turn up there again and again. It is more about the community building than the technical aspects, but then technical decisions and presentations and coordination also happen there. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
I seem to remember that Werner was away until the middle of August, and the school holidays last until August 21st. I've now booked a fly to Dortmund (in addition to visiting my two children there will be probably a performance of my piece for Cello orchestra), staying there from Aug 15th to 20th, so the planned time frame fits perfectly. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
[...] I'm afraid I can't be present. I'm not really a core developer, so couldn't contribute much to the discussion anyway. This doesn't matter. It's fully sufficient that you are capable of drinking beer, I presume :-) Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Any idea about the connectivity with nearby airports? Flying to Dortmund seems to involve three flights over 2000 euro, whereas flying to Dusseldorf is 250 euro. It's probably safe to assume that Germany has good railways for Dusseldorf to Dortmund? (or maybe Essen or Cologne?) - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August!
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:26:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote: So the core data would be Dortmund Germany (about 10 miles from there) and the proposal for a date would Friday August 17th to Tuesday August 21st, or one week later. Any idea about the connectivity with nearby airports? Flying to Dortmund seems to involve three flights over 2000 euro, whereas flying to Dusseldorf is 250 euro. It's probably safe to assume that Germany has good railways for Dusseldorf to Dortmund? (or maybe Essen or Cologne?) Essen -- Dortmund -- 20 minutes hourly, 30 minutes every 15 minutes Düsseldorf -- Dortmund -- 45 minutes hourly Cologne -- Dortmund -- about 1h10 hourly That's just the regional trains I know off my head (got a ticket for them); the fast trains are about once or twice an hour and are again about 20% time off and about 25Euro/hr. Connecting from the airports to the main railway lines: Essen no idea, Düsseldorf _is_ on the main railway line, Dortmund and Cologne take about 20 minutes. Ryanair might connect to something like Düsseldorf Weeze instead of the main airport. I have no idea where that is; probably 25 minutes of transfer from Düsseldorf main station. In a nutshell: connecting to Dortmund airport instead of Düsseldorf buys you astonishingly little time and not all that much railroad fare. Connecting to Cologne takes somewhat more time. Essen would be tolerable as well, but probably like Dortmund does not really make for cheap connections. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Meeting 2nd half of August! (was: GOP2: 0 - why are we losing developers? (discuss responses))
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 1:26 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Mailing list arguments are a trickier issue. It’s clearly a big problem, but this isn’t something we can fix by waving a change of policy. I’ll schedule a time to discuss it. We need to do something about this, although at the moment I have no immediate suggestions. I have one. It may sound absurd, but then I have learnt once you ruled out the impossible whatever remains however improbable might be effective, and there are a few things that somehow or other appear to be hard, particularly for me. Decent communication in electronic media is one of the things I am spectacularly bad at. One thing that has turned out to be effective at times is meeting people in person. Amen to that. Jan and I had some spectularly bad fights over patch handling (mainly Jan complaining of mine). Those fights always were caused by discussing things in a hurry over e-mail, and were always resolved when we called to discuss things over the telephone. I warmly recommend getting together, hacking, thinking and drinking some beer (or whatever your preferred beverage). Are you with me? -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
