trouble with end bar and open-repeat (volta) bars at same place.

[Mike F.]

Is there any way to have an endbar (\bar "|.") AND the begin-repeat for 
my \repeat volta 2 {} simultaneously?


I'm attempting to typeset a typical Mozart Menuetto/Trio (Sleigh Ride 
K605 #3) with a DC al Fine that ends after the last \alternative in the 
Menuetto.  The beginning of the Trio must start with a volta repeat, but 
I'd really like to have an End-Bar under the Fine.


Any ideas?  Google and I can't seem to find anything close online.

(I already used the snippet for an invisible measure--named \splitBar in 
my macros--to separate out the \mark \markup {"Fine"} and the \mark 
\default at the Trio beginning.)


Here's the outline of Herr Mozart's Menuetto/Trio.

Thanks in advance.

---

outlineSleighRide = {

\tempo "Menuetto" 4=180

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 1-7

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 8

{ s2. | } % 9

} % end alternative

\mark \default % rehearsal A

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 10-16

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 17

{ s2. | } % 18

} % end alternative

\fine

\splitBar

\mark \default % rehearsal B

\key bes \major

\tempo "Trio"

\repeat volta 2 {

% B

s4. s4. | % 19

s2.*6 | % 20-25

} % end volta repeat

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 26

{ s2. | } % 27

} % end alternative

\mark \default % rehearsal C

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 28-34

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 35

{ s2. | } % 36

} % end alternative

\key f \major

\DCalfine

} % end outlineSleighRide

-<\code>---
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RE: trouble with end bar and open-repeat (volta) bars at same place.

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Mike:

 

Looking at the piece

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/f/f5/IMSLP24315-PMLP55004-Mozart_3_Deutsche_Tanze_K.605.pdf

the first section does not have alternative endings.

The Trio starts a new staff/section.

 

Mark

 

From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org 
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Mike F.
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 5:39 PM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: trouble with end bar and open-repeat (volta) bars at same place.

 

Is there any way to have an endbar (\bar "|.") AND the begin-repeat for my 
\repeat volta 2 {} simultaneously?

I'm attempting to typeset a typical Mozart Menuetto/Trio (Sleigh Ride K605 #3) 
with a DC al Fine that ends after the last \alternative in the Menuetto.  The 
beginning of the Trio must start with a volta repeat, but I'd really like to 
have an End-Bar under the Fine.

Any ideas?  Google and I can't seem to find anything close online.

(I already used the snippet for an invisible measure--named \splitBar in my 
macros--to separate out the \mark \markup {"Fine"} and the \mark \default at 
the Trio beginning.)

Here's the outline of Herr Mozart's Menuetto/Trio.

Thanks in advance.

---




outlineSleighRide = {

\tempo "Menuetto" 4=180

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 1-7

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 8

{ s2. | } % 9

} % end alternative 

\mark \default % rehearsal A

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 10-16

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 17

{ s2. | } % 18

} % end alternative 

\fine

\splitBar

\mark \default % rehearsal B

\key bes \major

\tempo "Trio"

\repeat volta 2 {

% B

s4. s4. | % 19

s2.*6 | % 20-25

} % end volta repeat 

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 26

{ s2. | } % 27

} % end alternative 

\mark \default % rehearsal C

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 28-34

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 35

{ s2. | } % 36

} % end alternative 

\key f \major

\DCalfine

} % end outlineSleighRide

-<\code>---

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Re: trouble with end bar and open-repeat (volta) bars at same place.

[Thomas Morley]

2015-12-15 3:13 GMT+01:00 Thomas Morley :
> 2015-12-15 2:38 GMT+01:00 Mike F. :
>> Is there any way to have an endbar (\bar "|.") AND the begin-repeat for my
>> \repeat volta 2 {} simultaneously?
>>
>> I'm attempting to typeset a typical Mozart Menuetto/Trio (Sleigh Ride K605
>> #3) with a DC al Fine that ends after the last \alternative in the Menuetto.
>> The beginning of the Trio must start with a volta repeat, but I'd really
>> like to have an End-Bar under the Fine.
>>
>> Any ideas?  Google and I can't seem to find anything close online.
>>
>> (I already used the snippet for an invisible measure--named \splitBar in my
>> macros--to separate out the \mark \markup {"Fine"} and the \mark \default at
>> the Trio beginning.)
>>
>> Here's the outline of Herr Mozart's Menuetto/Trio.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> outlineSleighRide = {
>>
>> \tempo "Menuetto" 4=180
>>
>> \repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 1-7
>>
>> \alternative {
>>
>> { s2. | } % 8
>>
>> { s2. | } % 9
>>
>> } % end alternative
>>
>> \mark \default % rehearsal A
>>
>> \repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 10-16
>>
>> \alternative {
>>
>> { s2. | } % 17
>>
>> { s2. | } % 18
>>
>> } % end alternative
>>
>> \fine
>>
>> \splitBar
>>
>> \mark \default % rehearsal B
>>
>> \key bes \major
>>
>> \tempo "Trio"
>>
>> \repeat volta 2 {
>>
>> % B
>>
>> s4. s4. | % 19
>>
>> s2.*6 | % 20-25
>>
>> } % end volta repeat
>>
>> \alternative {
>>
>> { s2. | } % 26
>>
>> { s2. | } % 27
>>
>> } % end alternative
>>
>> \mark \default % rehearsal C
>>
>> \repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 28-34
>>
>> \alternative {
>>
>> { s2. | } % 35
>>
>> { s2. | } % 36
>>
>> } % end alternative
>>
>> \key f \major
>>
>> \DCalfine
>>
>> } % end outlineSleighRide
>>
>> -<\code>---
>>
>
> Please always post the version you use and a tiny, _compilable_ example.
> Right now I've no good idea what you're trying to achieve.
> Usually I ignore posts without version/compilable example, I hate to
> guess what _may_ be wished.
> Though, I'm pretty drunk (love those Islay single malts)
>
> Here a guess:
>
> \version "2.19.32"
>
> #(define-bar-line ".|:-a" "|." ".|:" "|")
Better:
#(define-bar-line ".|:-a" "|." ".|:" ".|")
>
> {
>   s1
>   \break
>   \bar ".|:-a"
>   \repeat volta 2 { s1 }
> }
>
> HTH,
>   Harm

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Re: trouble with end bar and open-repeat (volta) bars at same place.

[Thomas Morley]

2015-12-15 2:38 GMT+01:00 Mike F. :
> Is there any way to have an endbar (\bar "|.") AND the begin-repeat for my
> \repeat volta 2 {} simultaneously?
>
> I'm attempting to typeset a typical Mozart Menuetto/Trio (Sleigh Ride K605
> #3) with a DC al Fine that ends after the last \alternative in the Menuetto.
> The beginning of the Trio must start with a volta repeat, but I'd really
> like to have an End-Bar under the Fine.
>
> Any ideas?  Google and I can't seem to find anything close online.
>
> (I already used the snippet for an invisible measure--named \splitBar in my
> macros--to separate out the \mark \markup {"Fine"} and the \mark \default at
> the Trio beginning.)
>
> Here's the outline of Herr Mozart's Menuetto/Trio.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> ---
>
> outlineSleighRide = {
>
> \tempo "Menuetto" 4=180
>
> \repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 1-7
>
> \alternative {
>
> { s2. | } % 8
>
> { s2. | } % 9
>
> } % end alternative
>
> \mark \default % rehearsal A
>
> \repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 10-16
>
> \alternative {
>
> { s2. | } % 17
>
> { s2. | } % 18
>
> } % end alternative
>
> \fine
>
> \splitBar
>
> \mark \default % rehearsal B
>
> \key bes \major
>
> \tempo "Trio"
>
> \repeat volta 2 {
>
> % B
>
> s4. s4. | % 19
>
> s2.*6 | % 20-25
>
> } % end volta repeat
>
> \alternative {
>
> { s2. | } % 26
>
> { s2. | } % 27
>
> } % end alternative
>
> \mark \default % rehearsal C
>
> \repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 28-34
>
> \alternative {
>
> { s2. | } % 35
>
> { s2. | } % 36
>
> } % end alternative
>
> \key f \major
>
> \DCalfine
>
> } % end outlineSleighRide
>
> -<\code>---
>

Please always post the version you use and a tiny, _compilable_ example.
Right now I've no good idea what you're trying to achieve.
Usually I ignore posts without version/compilable example, I hate to
guess what _may_ be wished.
Though, I'm pretty drunk (love those Islay single malts)

Here a guess:

\version "2.19.32"

#(define-bar-line ".|:-a" "|." ".|:" "|")

{
  s1
  \break
  \bar ".|:-a"
  \repeat volta 2 { s1 }
}

HTH,
  Harm

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Re: trouble with end bar and open-repeat (volta) bars at same place.

[Mike F.]

Thanks for your prompt suggestion.  I thought of "version #" just after 
[send].  Typical.


\version "2.18.2"

I'm no good at making my own #defs, but I'm familiar enough with them 
that I think I understand yours.  I'll test when I've  finished a bit of 
holiday shopping.


Again, thanks.

On 12/14/2015 07:17 PM, Thomas Morley wrote:

2015-12-15 3:13 GMT+01:00 Thomas Morley :

2015-12-15 2:38 GMT+01:00 Mike F. :

Is there any way to have an endbar (\bar "|.") AND the begin-repeat for my
\repeat volta 2 {} simultaneously?

I'm attempting to typeset a typical Mozart Menuetto/Trio (Sleigh Ride K605
#3) with a DC al Fine that ends after the last \alternative in the Menuetto.
The beginning of the Trio must start with a volta repeat, but I'd really
like to have an End-Bar under the Fine.

Any ideas?  Google and I can't seem to find anything close online.

(I already used the snippet for an invisible measure--named \splitBar in my
macros--to separate out the \mark \markup {"Fine"} and the \mark \default at
the Trio beginning.)

Here's the outline of Herr Mozart's Menuetto/Trio.

Thanks in advance.

---

outlineSleighRide = {

\tempo "Menuetto" 4=180

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 1-7

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 8

{ s2. | } % 9

} % end alternative

\mark \default % rehearsal A

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 10-16

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 17

{ s2. | } % 18

} % end alternative

\fine

\splitBar

\mark \default % rehearsal B

\key bes \major

\tempo "Trio"

\repeat volta 2 {

% B

s4. s4. | % 19

s2.*6 | % 20-25

} % end volta repeat

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 26

{ s2. | } % 27

} % end alternative

\mark \default % rehearsal C

\repeat volta 2 { s2.*7 | } % 28-34

\alternative {

{ s2. | } % 35

{ s2. | } % 36

} % end alternative

\key f \major

\DCalfine

} % end outlineSleighRide

-<\code>---


Please always post the version you use and a tiny, _compilable_ example.
Right now I've no good idea what you're trying to achieve.
Usually I ignore posts without version/compilable example, I hate to
guess what _may_ be wished.
Though, I'm pretty drunk (love those Islay single malts)

Here a guess:

\version "2.19.32"

#(define-bar-line ".|:-a" "|." ".|:" "|")

Better:
#(define-bar-line ".|:-a" "|." ".|:" ".|")

{
   s1
   \break
   \bar ".|:-a"
   \repeat volta 2 { s1 }
}

HTH,
   Harm


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Re: converting svg glyph to path data for use in scheme

[Urs Liska]

Am 13.12.2015 um 14:09 schrieb Graham Breed:
> On 13/12/15 12:48, N. Andrew Walsh wrote:
>> Take a look at conversions.ly (sorry; mround is the equivalend
>> function in
>> the spreadsheet I use to do the same thing). Those functions will
>> convert
>> the input (given as a fraction comprising two integers) into Lily's
>> semitone values. That should allow you to convert between
>> just-intonation
>> ratios an the nearest note name. Urs has some comments in there
>> explaining
>> a bit how it works.
>
> Converting from ratios to cents is easy.  Converting between ratios
> and cents requires a function from cents to ratios.  That's a lot more
> difficult because information is lost.  You got us excited by
> suggesting that had been solved.

Well, this is because conversion from cent to ratio isn't part of the
objective currently. And as it is not a part of Andrews thinking as a
composer he didn't think of a possible ambiguity here ...

While I wouldn't object integrating the other direction of the
conversion in a library I'd say it's currently not on the agenda, as
we're solely discussing ways to display pitches that are conceived as
ratios over fundamentals.

>From that perspective cent values are not actual data but rather
results, and even stricter: a compromise to incorporate data in the
tempered notation system most instrument(alist)s are used to.

Urs

>
>
>   Graham
>
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Re: converting svg glyph to path data for use in scheme

[N. Andrew Walsh]

Converting cents to ratios only makes even a bit of sense if you have some
preexisting music in some temperament, which you then want to approximate
in just intonation. But even that isn't really something that would be
served by calculation from cents and not simply determining yourself what
ratios you want (because, at base, deciding which ratio you want to have is
entirely arbitrary). Now, if you have some closed scale, it's simply a
matter of figuring out the cents values for the notes in the scale, and
then rounding your preexisting notes to the nearest one.

But if you are using any kind of temperament at all, you're dealing at base
with irrational numbers, and no computation is going to provide meaningful
results unless you specify beforehand what your limits are (in which case
you're specifying a closed scale, and it's thus much simpler to do the
calculations in the other direction). For example, here are all the ratios
in a very basic scale that fall within a quartertone of 600 cents: 11/8,
18/13, 7/5, 17/12, 10/7, 23/16, 13/9, and 16/11. Which one of those counts
as a "tritone" for your scale depends almost entirely on how simple you
want to keep the ratios (and if simplicity isn't necessarily your goal,
there's also 352/256, 89/64, 179/128, 359/256, 181/128, 367/256, and
373/256; all of those are pure overtones).

Saying you want to convert from cents to ratios is a self-contradictory
proposition. The degree of accuracy you want depends on an a priori
determination of the limits of your scale, in which case you're working
from ratios regardless.

Meanwhile, I'm teaching myself fontforge. And here I thought it was
commercial software, and I already had it installed.

Cheers,

A

On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Trevor Daniels 
wrote:

>
> David Kastrup wrote Monday, December 14, 2015 11:32 AM
>
>
> > Urs Liska  writes:
> >
> >> Am 13.12.2015 um 14:09 schrieb Graham Breed:
> >>> On 13/12/15 12:48, N. Andrew Walsh wrote:
>  Take a look at conversions.ly (sorry; mround is the equivalend
>  function in
>  the spreadsheet I use to do the same thing). Those functions will
>  convert
>  the input (given as a fraction comprising two integers) into Lily's
>  semitone values. That should allow you to convert between
>  just-intonation
>  ratios an the nearest note name. Urs has some comments in there
>  explaining
>  a bit how it works.
> >>>
> >>> Converting from ratios to cents is easy.  Converting between ratios
> >>> and cents requires a function from cents to ratios.  That's a lot more
> >>> difficult because information is lost.  You got us excited by
> >>> suggesting that had been solved.
> >>
> >> Well, this is because conversion from cent to ratio isn't part of the
> >> objective currently.
> >
> > Guile has
> >
> > (rationalize (inexact->exact (atan 0 -1)) #e1e-6)
> >
> > so you can try converting irrational numbers to ratios.  However,
> > figuring out the precision to use may be tricky and there is no "prefer
> > simple ratios" option.  All you have to work with is the eps argument.
>
> One way to approach this would be via continued fractions.
> These provide a means to determine the "best" rational approximations
> to a real number.
>
> The continued fractions give a list of rational approximations in
> which each member is a closer approximation to the real value than
> the previous members, and each is also closer than any approximation
> with a smaller or equal denominator.
>
> For example, pi = [3;7,15,1,292,1,1,...] as a continued fraction,
> which gives the successive "best" rational approximations to pi of
> 3/1, 22/7, 333/106, 355/113, ...
>
> Not sure how you'd determine which of the ratios was "correct" when
> used for conversion from cent to ratio, though.  Maybe try a few
> and see what comes out.
>
> Trevor
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Re: converting svg glyph to path data for use in scheme

[Trevor Daniels]

David Kastrup wrote Monday, December 14, 2015 11:32 AM


> Urs Liska  writes:
> 
>> Am 13.12.2015 um 14:09 schrieb Graham Breed:
>>> On 13/12/15 12:48, N. Andrew Walsh wrote:
 Take a look at conversions.ly (sorry; mround is the equivalend
 function in
 the spreadsheet I use to do the same thing). Those functions will
 convert
 the input (given as a fraction comprising two integers) into Lily's
 semitone values. That should allow you to convert between
 just-intonation
 ratios an the nearest note name. Urs has some comments in there
 explaining
 a bit how it works.
>>>
>>> Converting from ratios to cents is easy.  Converting between ratios
>>> and cents requires a function from cents to ratios.  That's a lot more
>>> difficult because information is lost.  You got us excited by
>>> suggesting that had been solved.
>>
>> Well, this is because conversion from cent to ratio isn't part of the
>> objective currently.
> 
> Guile has
> 
> (rationalize (inexact->exact (atan 0 -1)) #e1e-6)
> 
> so you can try converting irrational numbers to ratios.  However,
> figuring out the precision to use may be tricky and there is no "prefer
> simple ratios" option.  All you have to work with is the eps argument.

One way to approach this would be via continued fractions.
These provide a means to determine the "best" rational approximations
to a real number.

The continued fractions give a list of rational approximations in
which each member is a closer approximation to the real value than
the previous members, and each is also closer than any approximation
with a smaller or equal denominator.

For example, pi = [3;7,15,1,292,1,1,...] as a continued fraction,
which gives the successive "best" rational approximations to pi of 
3/1, 22/7, 333/106, 355/113, ...

Not sure how you'd determine which of the ratios was "correct" when
used for conversion from cent to ratio, though.  Maybe try a few
and see what comes out.

Trevor
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Re: converting svg glyph to path data for use in scheme

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 13.12.2015 um 14:09 schrieb Graham Breed:
>> On 13/12/15 12:48, N. Andrew Walsh wrote:
>>> Take a look at conversions.ly (sorry; mround is the equivalend
>>> function in
>>> the spreadsheet I use to do the same thing). Those functions will
>>> convert
>>> the input (given as a fraction comprising two integers) into Lily's
>>> semitone values. That should allow you to convert between
>>> just-intonation
>>> ratios an the nearest note name. Urs has some comments in there
>>> explaining
>>> a bit how it works.
>>
>> Converting from ratios to cents is easy.  Converting between ratios
>> and cents requires a function from cents to ratios.  That's a lot more
>> difficult because information is lost.  You got us excited by
>> suggesting that had been solved.
>
> Well, this is because conversion from cent to ratio isn't part of the
> objective currently.

Guile has

(rationalize (inexact->exact (atan 0 -1)) #e1e-6)

so you can try converting irrational numbers to ratios.  However,
figuring out the precision to use may be tricky and there is no "prefer
simple ratios" option.  All you have to work with is the eps argument.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: converting svg glyph to path data for use in scheme

[David Kastrup]

"Trevor Daniels"  writes:

> David Kastrup wrote Monday, December 14, 2015 11:32 AM
>
>
>> Urs Liska  writes:
>> 
>>> Am 13.12.2015 um 14:09 schrieb Graham Breed:
 On 13/12/15 12:48, N. Andrew Walsh wrote:
> Take a look at conversions.ly (sorry; mround is the equivalend
> function in
> the spreadsheet I use to do the same thing). Those functions will
> convert
> the input (given as a fraction comprising two integers) into Lily's
> semitone values. That should allow you to convert between
> just-intonation
> ratios an the nearest note name. Urs has some comments in there
> explaining
> a bit how it works.

 Converting from ratios to cents is easy.  Converting between ratios
 and cents requires a function from cents to ratios.  That's a lot more
 difficult because information is lost.  You got us excited by
 suggesting that had been solved.
>>>
>>> Well, this is because conversion from cent to ratio isn't part of the
>>> objective currently.
>> 
>> Guile has
>> 
>> (rationalize (inexact->exact (atan 0 -1)) #e1e-6)
>> 
>> so you can try converting irrational numbers to ratios.  However,
>> figuring out the precision to use may be tricky and there is no "prefer
>> simple ratios" option.  All you have to work with is the eps argument.
>
> One way to approach this would be via continued fractions.

Well, that's what `rationalize' does.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Rumor: installing from repository without texlive

[David Kastrup]

tapani  writes:

> I'm trying to install Rumor from the Ubuntu (14.10) repository, but it
> includes the following dependencies: tex-common, texinfo and
> texlive-binaries.

Two questions: what are you trying to use it with?

> I prefer to install texlive vanilla from source, but apt-get doesn't
> seem to recognise it in this case (it does in others). Is there a way
> round this, other than compiling rumor from source?

Just install the system texlive if you can spare the space.  That's the
least maintenance-intensive solution.  Then point your PATH variable to
look at your TeXlive binary directory first.

For AUCTeX, I have a command that lets me select between system and
various manually installed TeXlive versions.  If you are using Emacs, I
can post the code to do that here.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Rumor: installing from repository without texlive

[Kevin Barry]

There is a command to tell apt that you have manually installed a
particular package. I can't look it up now as I am doing this on my phone,
but maybe someone else here will know it or you can Google it.

Kevin
On 14 Dec 2015 12:37 p.m., "tapani"  wrote:

> I'm trying to install Rumor from the Ubuntu (14.10) repository, but it
> includes the following dependencies: tex-common, texinfo and
> texlive-binaries. I prefer to install texlive vanilla from source, but
> apt-get doesn't seem to recognise it in this case (it does in others). Is
> there a way round this, other than compiling rumor from source?
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Tapani
>
>
>
> --
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Re: converting svg glyph to path data for use in scheme

[Urs Liska]

Am 14.12.2015 um 13:26 schrieb N. Andrew Walsh:
> Meanwhile, I'm teaching myself fontforge. And here I thought it was
> commercial software, and I already had it installed. 
>

I'm not sure if that's a viable road, but it might also be a good idea
to define these stencils in metafont. This might be a good approach to
handle the visual redundancy (i.e. have identical serifs by reference
instead of copying paths), and the sources can be stored in a meaningful
repository. And as a surplus: if you should ever find yourself in the
situation to convince LilyPond devs that your notation acquires some
"market penetration" it would be straightforward to add them to Emmentaler

Urs

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Re: JI notation (was: converting svg glyph to path data for use in scheme)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 14 Dec 2015, at 20:28, Graham Breed  wrote:
> 
>> From: "N. Andrew Walsh"
> 
>> Converting cents to ratios only makes even a bit of sense if you have some
>> preexisting music in some temperament, which you then want to approximate
>> in just intonation. But even that isn't really something that would be
>> served by calculation from cents and not simply determining yourself what
>> ratios you want (because, at base, deciding which ratio you want to have is
>> entirely arbitrary). Now, if you have some closed scale, it's simply a
>> matter of figuring out the cents values for the notes in the scale, and
>> then rounding your preexisting notes to the nearest one.
> 
> It makes sense because at the point you choose the accidental, the deviation 
> from the unaltered pitch is the only information you have — unless you have 
> some other mechanism for passing it along.  But what some of the discussion 
> implies is that you could keep a global hash table of the alteration (which 
> happens to be rational and so unique and hashable) chosen for a given ratio 
> input.  That would work as long as the input is always JI, and that's a 
> perfectly reasonable assumption. Transposition would still have some 
> wrinkles, though.
> 
> Using an equal temperament to set the accidentals is problematic even if you 
> allow Sagittal-style wraparound.  Sometimes errors will accumulate so that 
> the correct spelling doesn't match the nearest approximation of a complex 
> ratio to the equal temperament.  

If one wants to preserve some algebraic properties, like two syntonic commas is 
the same as a double syntonic comma, and so on for some other algebraically 
independent intervals, then it is not possible to use an ET to describe that. - 
I made a search up to tens of thousands. What happens is that when one goes up 
in ET, it becomes harder for these multiples to become preserved.

The code I wrote [1] would do it correctly.

1. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2014-12/msg00075.html



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JI notation (was: converting svg glyph to path data for use in scheme)

[Graham Breed]

From: "N. Andrew Walsh"



Converting cents to ratios only makes even a bit of sense if you have some
preexisting music in some temperament, which you then want to approximate
in just intonation. But even that isn't really something that would be
served by calculation from cents and not simply determining yourself what
ratios you want (because, at base, deciding which ratio you want to have is
entirely arbitrary). Now, if you have some closed scale, it's simply a
matter of figuring out the cents values for the notes in the scale, and
then rounding your preexisting notes to the nearest one.


It makes sense because at the point you choose the accidental, the 
deviation from the unaltered pitch is the only information you have — 
unless you have some other mechanism for passing it along.  But what 
some of the discussion implies is that you could keep a global hash 
table of the alteration (which happens to be rational and so unique and 
hashable) chosen for a given ratio input.  That would work as long as 
the input is always JI, and that's a perfectly reasonable assumption. 
Transposition would still have some wrinkles, though.


Using an equal temperament to set the accidentals is problematic even if 
you allow Sagittal-style wraparound.  Sometimes errors will accumulate 
so that the correct spelling doesn't match the nearest approximation of 
a complex ratio to the equal temperament.  The simple solution is to 
convert each ratio to the temperament before they get combined, but that 
would mean the MIDI ended up equally tempered.  The next stage is to use 
a different equal temperament for the score and MIDI rendering.  To 
guarantee the correct spelling you would need to do factorization.  That 
can be done in Scheme but so far I haven't done it.



But if you are using any kind of temperament at all, you're dealing at base
with irrational numbers, and no computation is going to provide meaningful
results unless you specify beforehand what your limits are (in which case
you're specifying a closed scale, and it's thus much simpler to do the
calculations in the other direction). For example, here are all the ratios
in a very basic scale that fall within a quartertone of 600 cents: 11/8,
18/13, 7/5, 17/12, 10/7, 23/16, 13/9, and 16/11. Which one of those counts
as a "tritone" for your scale depends almost entirely on how simple you
want to keep the ratios (and if simplicity isn't necessarily your goal,
there's also 352/256, 89/64, 179/128, 359/256, 181/128, 367/256, and
373/256; all of those are pure overtones).


It's a lot more complicated than that.  While you could write an 
adaptive tuning engine in Lilypond, that isn't what we're discussing 
here, so let's drop it.



  Graham


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Re: Rumor: installing from repository without texlive

[tapani]

Thanks for both answers – I found it. For future reference:

sudo apt-get download rumor
sudo dpkg -i rumor*.deb
sudo apt-get install -f (for missing guile library)

Tapani



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