Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Saul Tobin]

I agree with this, but I can imagine the following distinct engraving
styles:

1. Beam over rests only when the beam both begins and ends with a note.
2. Also beam over initial rests.
3. Also beam over final rests.

Further, I can imagine wanting e.g. c16[ r c r], rather than c16[ r c] r,
but in the same piece preferring c8 r rather than c8[ r] at the end of a
phrase.

There would need to be a convenient way of cancelling beam over rest. What
is the opposite of c8[ r c]?

Saul

On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 2:03 PM Flaming Hakama by Elaine <
ela...@flaminghakama.com> wrote:

>
> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: David Kastrup 
>> To: Kieren MacMillan 
>> Cc: foxfanfare , Lilypond-User Mailing List <
>> lilypond-user@gnu.org>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 17:33:07 +0200
>> Subject: Re: Automatic beaming with rest
>> Kieren MacMillan  writes:
>>
>> > p.s.
>> >
>> > Before you ask: Yes, it would be great to include the option/parameter
>> > to extend across *all* rests that fall within the "beat" as defined
>> > for the beam,
>>
>> What is the "beat" as defined for the beam?
>>
>> > even if they fall outside the compass of the two "boundary notes" for
>> > the auto beam.
>>
>> --
>> David Kastrup
>>
>
> I would love to have this type of option, since I often do beaming for
> certain complex rhythms.
> My suggestion would be to have a configuration option for "beam the beat":
>
> * If the beat has no notes, and only rests, there is no beam
> * If the beat has exactly one note, and no rests, then there is no beam
> * If the beat has at least one actual note, and additionally either at
> least one more note, or at least one rest, then beam over all notes/rests
> in that beat.
>
>
> While I personally hate stemlets, in the interest in accommodating others
> who do, it might be good to have another option that determines whether
> there should be stemlets.  With the default being no stemlets.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Elaine Alt
> 415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
> highly underrated*"
> ela...@flaminghakama.com
> Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist ~ Educator
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

> -- Forwarded message --
> From: David Kastrup 
> To: Kieren MacMillan 
> Cc: foxfanfare , Lilypond-User Mailing List <
> lilypond-user@gnu.org>
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 17:33:07 +0200
> Subject: Re: Automatic beaming with rest
> Kieren MacMillan  writes:
>
> > p.s.
> >
> > Before you ask: Yes, it would be great to include the option/parameter
> > to extend across *all* rests that fall within the "beat" as defined
> > for the beam,
>
> What is the "beat" as defined for the beam?
>
> > even if they fall outside the compass of the two "boundary notes" for
> > the auto beam.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>

I would love to have this type of option, since I often do beaming for
certain complex rhythms.
My suggestion would be to have a configuration option for "beam the beat":

* If the beat has no notes, and only rests, there is no beam
* If the beat has exactly one note, and no rests, then there is no beam
* If the beat has at least one actual note, and additionally either at
least one more note, or at least one rest, then beam over all notes/rests
in that beat.


While I personally hate stemlets, in the interest in accommodating others
who do, it might be good to have another option that determines whether
there should be stemlets.  With the default being no stemlets.


Thanks,

Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist ~ Educator
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Carl,

> I think that if we can get smarter autobeaming (like we need to do to get 
> subdivision and tuplets done right) we can do beaming over rests.  Probably 
> we need to do a two-pass beam check to get the autobeaming right for 
> subdivision, and if we do two-pass, we can beam over rests.

That’s encouraging! Thanks for the information.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Carl Sorensen]

On 4/2/19, 9:41 AM, "Kieren MacMillan"  wrote:

>Hi David,

>> What is the "beat" as defined for the beam?

> Perhaps I should use the word "moment"… Example: In 3/4, one can set the 
autobeamer to beam sub-quarter notes as 3, or 2+1, or 1+2, or 1+1+1 (or even 
other options, I suppose). The moment an auto-beam encompasses (as a result of 
the current settings) is the "beat" I was talking about.

I think that if we can get smarter autobeaming (like we need to do to get 
subdivision and tuplets done right) we can do beaming over rests.  Probably we 
need to do a two-pass beam check to get the autobeaming right for subdivision, 
and if we do two-pass, we can beam over rests.  Right now, with our one-pass 
algorithm, a rest stops the beam.

Carl

 

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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> What is the "beat" as defined for the beam?

Perhaps I should use the word "moment"… Example: In 3/4, one can set the 
autobeamer to beam sub-quarter notes as 3, or 2+1, or 1+2, or 1+1+1 (or even 
other options, I suppose). The moment an auto-beam encompasses (as a result of 
the current settings) is the "beat" I was talking about.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> So if we have
> { \time 4/4 c'8 r4 c'8 8 8 8 8 }
> will there be a beam across r4?

Would there be a beam across

   c'8 c'4 c'8

? If yes, then yes; if no, then no.

> What if we have r8 r8 instead?

Would there be a beam across

  c'8 c'8 c'8 c'8

? If yes, then yes; if no, then no.

> Do beaming exceptions count for rests?

I would think so… but I’ll have to look more closely at exactly how beam 
exceptions work.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> p.s.
>
> Before you ask: Yes, it would be great to include the option/parameter
> to extend across *all* rests that fall within the "beat" as defined
> for the beam,

What is the "beat" as defined for the beam?

> even if they fall outside the compass of the two "boundary notes" for
> the auto beam.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> So if you have a bar containing only rests, the autobeamer places
> beams over them?
>
> LOL
> Sure, we can play this game…

It's not a game to work out specs.  It's not optional.  Computers don't
do handwaving.

> An automatic beam must start from a note and end at a second note.

So if we have

{ \time 4/4 c'8 r4 c'8 8 8 8 8 }

will there be a beam across r4?  What if we have r8 r8 instead?  Do
beaming exceptions count for rests?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi there,

> I don't think it's quite that simple as rests that begin or end beam groups 
> wouldn't have beams over them, only ones in the middle.

Not strictly true: in modern scores, the beam could easily extend over those 
rests (especially if stemlets are used). We just need to give the user 
options/parameters to determine how to handle those cases.

In any case, I think working out the logic behind an autobeam-over-rest 
functionality that easily satisfies the vast majority of people’s needs isn’t 
nearly as difficult as perhaps some people think.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

p.s.

Before you ask: Yes, it would be great to include the option/parameter to 
extend across *all* rests that fall within the "beat" as defined for the beam, 
even if they fall outside the compass of the two "boundary notes" for the auto 
beam.

Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Br. Samuel Springuel]

On 2019-04-02 11:05 AM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

The auto-beamer should beam according to the settings that it would apply if 
there were no rests.


I don't think it's quite that simple as rests that begin or end beam 
groups wouldn't have beams over them, only ones in the middle.


It might be more accurate to say that if a rest were replaced by a note 
of the same duration then any beams which the auto-beamer would draw 
which connect this hypothetical note to both the note immediately before 
it *and* immediately after it should be drawn over the rest.


--
✝✝
Br. Samuel, OSB
(R. Padraic Springuel)
St. Anselm’s Abbey
4501 South Dakota Ave, NE
Washington, DC, 20017
202-269-2300
(c) 202-853-7036

PAX ☧ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ

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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> So if you have a bar containing only rests, the autobeamer places beams over 
> them?

LOL
Sure, we can play this game…

An automatic beam must start from a note and end at a second note.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> It is not clear what that option would be supposed to do when.
>
> The auto-beamer should beam according to the settings that it would
> apply if there were no rests.
>
> Seems perfectly clear to me… but maybe that’s because I want the feature.  =)

So if you have a bar containing only rests, the autobeamer places beams
over them?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> It is not clear what that option would be supposed to do when.

The auto-beamer should beam according to the settings that it would apply if 
there were no rests.

Seems perfectly clear to me… but maybe that’s because I want the feature.  =)

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hey there,
>
>> But in my case, it is a typical engraving rule and I was wondering if I
>> wasn't missing a little option like 
>>  \set BeamOverRest = ##t
>
> I would love that option. Maybe submit it as a formal request?

Too much handwaving.  It is not clear what that option would be supposed
to do when.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hey there,

> But in my case, it is a typical engraving rule and I was wondering if I
> wasn't missing a little option like 
>  \set BeamOverRest = ##t

I would love that option. Maybe submit it as a formal request?

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[foxfanfare]

Kieren MacMillan wrote
> The documentation explicitly says “the autobeamer will not put beams over
> rests or bar lines”
> (http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/beams#manual-beams;).
> I hope someone [with real Scheme-fu] offers you a function/callback/hack
> that will do it automagically, since I sometimes need the same thing!

Thanks Kieren, I read this page before posting, but the example that is
written in this chapter is really unconventional. That's why it seems
logical to put the bracket there. 

But in my case, it is a typical engraving rule and I was wondering if I
wasn't missing a little option like 
  \set BeamOverRest = ##t 

:-) Apparently I'm not! ;-)




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Re: Automatic beaming with rest

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi there!

> is there a way to make the second line of my example to look like my
> third line without writing manually the brackets each time?

The documentation explicitly says “the autobeamer will not put beams over rests 
or bar lines” 
(). I 
hope someone [with real Scheme-fu] offers you a function/callback/hack that 
will do it automagically, since I sometimes need the same thing!

Of course, you could write a music function to handle it — but you wouldn’t 
save much typing over the manual process, so that wouldn’t really be worth it…

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Automatic beaming with rest

[foxfanfare]

Hi all,

I have a score to write with a lot of beaming upon rests. Here is a short
example:

\relative c' {
  c8 c c c c c c c
  c r c r c r c r
  c[ r c] r c[ r c] r
}

By default LP make the beam duration of a half note in 4/4. 
But is there a way to make the second line of my example to look like my
third line without writing manually the brackets each time?



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