Re: N.C. No Chord poll

[Amelie Protscher]

Hi David, all,


>1. How many Lilyponders think that "N.C." is elegant? 

It's the standard, and that's good enough for me.

>2. How many guitar teachers instruct their students to keep strumming when 
>they see a rest? 

It depends what's on the staff. If the vocal/melody line is notated, it makes 
good sense to keep strumming in the rests between vocal phrases. Not every rest 
is a break!

It makes sense to suppress N.C. only when the strumming pattern is expressly 
notated on the staff.

>3. In what genres is it normative for guitars to continue strumming through 
>every rest? 

As noted above, not through any, but through many. 

>4. If genres exist where it is normative for guitar players to strum 
>throughout a rest, in these genres is it also normative for the other 
>musicians to sustain or fiddle throughout a rest? 

You're obviously confusing a rest within a voice with a general pause. The two 
are not the same.

5-6 are too silly to answer.

>7. The decision with every LilyPond iteration not to allow a third option, 
>namely, normative blank over the rest, i.e. suppress the "N.C." gimmick -- 
>what are the reasons which LilyPond insiders have found so persuasive over the 
>years? 

Blank should be an option among many. And to my knowledge, it exists.

>8. How many people feel that LilyPond is being clueless when it comes to 
>making "N.C." the default setting? 

If we take our clues from standard notation conventions, then questioning 
"N.C." is either clueless or willful ignorance of standard practice.

>How can it be otherwise? 

Why should it be?

Just my 2 cents,

Amy

-- 
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Gerät mit K-9 Mail gesendet.

Re: N.C. No Chord poll

[Michael Dietz]

I usually use an m-dash "—" as the noChordSymbol as it is more language 
agnostic. But N.C. is reasonable default IMHO.

Re: N.C. No Chord poll

[Jean Abou Samra]

Le vendredi 19 mai 2023 à 22:35 -0400, David Olson a écrit :
> 
> 
> 
> the default setting for LilyPond chord engraving is: whenever there is a 
> rest, to display "N.C." 
> Iteration after iteration, this default setting has persisted in all the 
> versions of Lilypond I have ever used. 
> 
> Having always found this bizarre, I'm wondering now what other's think. 
> 
> 1. How many Lilyponders think that "N.C." is elegant?



Whether music notation is “elegant” is a personal opinion. Are beams or flags 
“elegant”? N.C. is standard, which is enough for LilyPond to do it by default.

N.C. is standard enough to be mentioned on Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_notation#Other_symbols

or, e.g., here:

https://www.studybass.com/lessons/reading-music/reading-chord-symbols/



> 2. How many guitar teachers instruct their students to keep strumming when 
> they see a rest?
> 
> 3. In what genres is it normative for guitars to continue strumming through 
> every rest? 
> 
> 4. If genres exist where it is normative for guitar players to strum 
> throughout a rest, in these genres is it also normative for the other 
> musicians to sustain or fiddle throughout a rest? 
> 
> 
> MORE SPECIFICALLY, the  page has a section:
> 
> Customizing the no-chord symbol
> By default, rests in a ChordNames context cause the “N.C.” symbol to be 
> printed. This markup can be customized. 
> 
> • Two options are given for customization: a bar over the rest, and the text 
> "Ssh!"
> 
> 5. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that uses the convention "Ssh!" over a 
> rest? 


This is a humoristic example, as Knute explained.


> 6. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that places a bar over the rest? 
> 
> 7. The decision with every LilyPond iteration not to allow a third option, 
> namely, normative blank over the rest, i.e. suppress the "N.C." gimmick -- 
> what are the reasons which LilyPond insiders
> have found so persuasive over the years?
> 
> 8. How many people feel that LilyPond is being clueless when it comes to 
> making "N.C." the default setting? 


Here you make assumptions about people, namely that LilyPond developers have 
deliberately restricted configurability, and these are simply untrue. Honestly, 
it would be wise to inform yourself more
before making statements such as calling LilyPond “clueless”.


> 9. How many people feel frustrated that the  page does not 
> contain any information, or links to information, on suppressing the "N.C." 
> symbol? 
> 
> NOTE THAT
> 
> 
> \set noChordSymbol = ""
> \set noChordSymbol = " "
> 
> still results in "N.C." being engraved. 



Over here, compiling

\version "2.24.1"

\chords {
\set noChordSymbol = ""
c1 r1
c1
}


results in



> Even in songs for children, I've never seen "Shh!" appear above a rest in the 
> chords line. Has anybody?
> 
> Why is this helpful? 
> 
> If the intention is not to be helpful, but cute, then it's an insult to 
> anyone who wants to suppress the "N.C."


Likewise, assuming an “insult” is unnecessary and simply wrong.


All the best,

Jean



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Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: N.C. No Chord poll

[Vincent Gay]

Le 20/05/2023 à 04:35, David Olson a écrit :

1. How many Lilyponders think that "N.C." is elegant?


I am one of them! As a French jazz musician I encounter (and use as a 
lilyponder) this convention every time the rhythm section is asked not 
to play.


--
Vincent Gay
Envoyé depuis mon saxo-phone :)
https://myrealbook.vintherine.org/  -http://photos.vintherine.org/

Re: N.C. No Chord poll

[Knute Snortum]

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 8:56 PM David Wright 
wrote:

> On Fri 19 May 2023 at 22:35:04 (-0400), David Olson wrote:
> > 
>
> >
> >
> > the default setting for LilyPond chord engraving is: whenever there is a
> rest, to display "N.C."
> > Iteration after iteration, this default setting has persisted in all the
> versions of Lilypond I have ever used.
> >
> > Having always found this bizarre, I'm wondering now what other's think.
> >
> > 1. How many Lilyponders think that "N.C." is elegant?
> >


It seems fine and standard.


>
> > 2. How many guitar teachers instruct their students to keep strumming
> when they see a rest?
> >
> > 3. In what genres is it normative for guitars to continue strumming
> through every rest?
> >
> > 4. If genres exist where it is normative for guitar players to strum
> throughout a rest, in these genres is it also normative for the other
> musicians to sustain or fiddle throughout a rest?


Putting N.C. over rests seems to me to be perfectly acceptable behavior.


>
> >
> >
> > MORE SPECIFICALLY, the  page has a section:
> >
> > Customizing the no-chord symbol
> > By default, rests in a ChordNames context cause the “N.C.” symbol to be
> printed. This markup can be customized.
> >
> > • Two options are given for customization: a bar over the rest, and the
> text
> > "Ssh!"
> >
> > 5. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that uses the convention "Ssh!" over
> a rest?
>

Explanations often use funny examples.  I don't think anyone is seriously
suggesting to put a "Shh!" over a rest.


> > 6. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that places a bar over the rest?
> >
> > 7. The decision with every LilyPond iteration not to allow a third
> option, namely, normative blank over the rest, i.e. suppress the "N.C."
> gimmick -- what are the reasons which LilyPond insiders have found so
> persuasive over the years?
> >
> > 8. How many people feel that LilyPond is being clueless when it comes to
> making "N.C." the default setting?
> >
> > 9. How many people feel frustrated that the  page
> does not contain any information, or links to information, on suppressing
> the "N.C." symbol?
>

I find that people are very willing to get suggestions on how to improve
the manuals.  Why don't you write out what you think it should say?


> > NOTE THAT
> >
> >
> > \set noChordSymbol = ""
> > \set noChordSymbol = " "
> >
> > still results in "N.C." being engraved.
> >
> > Even in songs for children, I've never seen "Shh!" appear above a rest
> in the chords line. Has anybody?
> >
> > Why is this helpful?
> >
> > If the intention is not to be helpful, but cute, then it's an insult to
> anyone who wants to suppress the "N.C."


No one's trying to insult you.  It's just an example to illustrate that you
can change "N.C." to whatever you want.  Why not ask some honest questions
about what you want and how you want things changed?

Re: N.C. No Chord poll

[Tim's Bitstream]

Or s1 rather than r1.

> On May 19, 2023, at 10:56 PM, David Wright  wrote:
> 
> On Fri 19 May 2023 at 22:35:04 (-0400), David Olson wrote:
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> the default setting for LilyPond chord engraving is: whenever there is a 
>> rest, to display "N.C." 
>> Iteration after iteration, this default setting has persisted in all the 
>> versions of Lilypond I have ever used. 
>> 
>> Having always found this bizarre, I'm wondering now what other's think. 
>> 
>> 1. How many Lilyponders think that "N.C." is elegant? 
>> 
>> 2. How many guitar teachers instruct their students to keep strumming when 
>> they see a rest? 
>> 
>> 3. In what genres is it normative for guitars to continue strumming through 
>> every rest? 
>> 
>> 4. If genres exist where it is normative for guitar players to strum 
>> throughout a rest, in these genres is it also normative for the other 
>> musicians to sustain or fiddle throughout a rest? 
>> 
>> 
>> MORE SPECIFICALLY, the  page has a section: 
>> 
>> Customizing the no-chord symbol 
>> By default, rests in a ChordNames context cause the “N.C.” symbol to be 
>> printed. This markup can be customized. 
>> 
>> • Two options are given for customization: a bar over the rest, and the text 
>> "Ssh!" 
>> 
>> 5. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that uses the convention "Ssh!" over a 
>> rest? 
>> 
>> 6. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that places a bar over the rest? 
>> 
>> 7. The decision with every LilyPond iteration not to allow a third option, 
>> namely, normative blank over the rest, i.e. suppress the "N.C." gimmick -- 
>> what are the reasons which LilyPond insiders have found so persuasive over 
>> the years? 
>> 
>> 8. How many people feel that LilyPond is being clueless when it comes to 
>> making "N.C." the default setting? 
>> 
>> 9. How many people feel frustrated that the  page does 
>> not contain any information, or links to information, on suppressing the 
>> "N.C." symbol? 
>> 
>> NOTE THAT 
>> 
>> 
>> \set noChordSymbol = "" 
>> \set noChordSymbol = " " 
>> 
>> still results in "N.C." being engraved. 
>> 
>> Even in songs for children, I've never seen "Shh!" appear above a rest in 
>> the chords line. Has anybody? 
>> 
>> Why is this helpful? 
>> 
>> If the intention is not to be helpful, but cute, then it's an insult to 
>> anyone who wants to suppress the "N.C." 
>> 
>> How can it be otherwise? 
> 
> Try   \set noChordSymbol = ##f
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
> 
> 

Re: N.C. No Chord poll

[David Wright]

On Fri 19 May 2023 at 22:35:04 (-0400), David Olson wrote:
>  
> 
> 
> the default setting for LilyPond chord engraving is: whenever there is a 
> rest, to display "N.C." 
> Iteration after iteration, this default setting has persisted in all the 
> versions of Lilypond I have ever used. 
> 
> Having always found this bizarre, I'm wondering now what other's think. 
> 
> 1. How many Lilyponders think that "N.C." is elegant? 
> 
> 2. How many guitar teachers instruct their students to keep strumming when 
> they see a rest? 
> 
> 3. In what genres is it normative for guitars to continue strumming through 
> every rest? 
> 
> 4. If genres exist where it is normative for guitar players to strum 
> throughout a rest, in these genres is it also normative for the other 
> musicians to sustain or fiddle throughout a rest? 
> 
> 
> MORE SPECIFICALLY, the  page has a section: 
> 
> Customizing the no-chord symbol 
> By default, rests in a ChordNames context cause the “N.C.” symbol to be 
> printed. This markup can be customized. 
> 
> • Two options are given for customization: a bar over the rest, and the text 
> "Ssh!" 
> 
> 5. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that uses the convention "Ssh!" over a 
> rest? 
> 
> 6. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that places a bar over the rest? 
> 
> 7. The decision with every LilyPond iteration not to allow a third option, 
> namely, normative blank over the rest, i.e. suppress the "N.C." gimmick -- 
> what are the reasons which LilyPond insiders have found so persuasive over 
> the years? 
> 
> 8. How many people feel that LilyPond is being clueless when it comes to 
> making "N.C." the default setting? 
> 
> 9. How many people feel frustrated that the  page does not 
> contain any information, or links to information, on suppressing the "N.C." 
> symbol? 
> 
> NOTE THAT 
> 
> 
> \set noChordSymbol = "" 
> \set noChordSymbol = " " 
> 
> still results in "N.C." being engraved. 
> 
> Even in songs for children, I've never seen "Shh!" appear above a rest in the 
> chords line. Has anybody? 
> 
> Why is this helpful? 
> 
> If the intention is not to be helpful, but cute, then it's an insult to 
> anyone who wants to suppress the "N.C." 
> 
> How can it be otherwise? 

Try   \set noChordSymbol = ##f

Cheers,
David.

N.C. No Chord poll

[David Olson]

 


the default setting for LilyPond chord engraving is: whenever there is a rest, 
to display "N.C." 
Iteration after iteration, this default setting has persisted in all the 
versions of Lilypond I have ever used. 

Having always found this bizarre, I'm wondering now what other's think. 

1. How many Lilyponders think that "N.C." is elegant? 

2. How many guitar teachers instruct their students to keep strumming when they 
see a rest? 

3. In what genres is it normative for guitars to continue strumming through 
every rest? 

4. If genres exist where it is normative for guitar players to strum throughout 
a rest, in these genres is it also normative for the other musicians to sustain 
or fiddle throughout a rest? 


MORE SPECIFICALLY, the  page has a section: 

Customizing the no-chord symbol 
By default, rests in a ChordNames context cause the “N.C.” symbol to be 
printed. This markup can be customized. 

• Two options are given for customization: a bar over the rest, and the text 
"Ssh!" 

5. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that uses the convention "Ssh!" over a 
rest? 

6. Has anyone ever seen sheet music that places a bar over the rest? 

7. The decision with every LilyPond iteration not to allow a third option, 
namely, normative blank over the rest, i.e. suppress the "N.C." gimmick -- what 
are the reasons which LilyPond insiders have found so persuasive over the 
years? 

8. How many people feel that LilyPond is being clueless when it comes to making 
"N.C." the default setting? 

9. How many people feel frustrated that the  page does not 
contain any information, or links to information, on suppressing the "N.C." 
symbol? 

NOTE THAT 


\set noChordSymbol = "" 
\set noChordSymbol = " " 

still results in "N.C." being engraved. 

Even in songs for children, I've never seen "Shh!" appear above a rest in the 
chords line. Has anybody? 

Why is this helpful? 

If the intention is not to be helpful, but cute, then it's an insult to anyone 
who wants to suppress the "N.C." 

How can it be otherwise? 

David Olson