Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Reinhold Kainhofer writes: A) Development of ly2xml Reviewers would probably argue that this is not really scientific research and should be funded by an industry partner instead. Some may even note that the hardest part of this has already been prototyped as part of schikkers list and argue Possible === Trivial === Worthless ;-) Jan -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org writes: Reinhold Kainhofer writes: A) Development of ly2xml Reviewers would probably argue that this is not really scientific research and should be funded by an industry partner instead. Some may even note that the hardest part of this has already been prototyped as part of schikkers list and argue Possible === Trivial === Worthless ;-) Proven possible == not a research item. Worthless? Just ask Microsoft and Apple how worthless it is to repackage existing possibilities and prototypes. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
David Kastrup writes: Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org writes: Reinhold Kainhofer writes: A) Development of ly2xml Reviewers would probably argue that this is not really scientific research and should be funded by an industry partner instead. Some may even note that the hardest part of this has already been prototyped as part of schikkers list and argue Possible === Trivial === Worthless ;-) Proven possible == not a research item. Worthless? Just ask Microsoft and Apple how worthless it is to repackage existing possibilities and prototypes. Possibly, but then you'd have to apply for a marketing/branding oriented grant? -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On 09/02/2012 12:08, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote: I have tried getting grants from different EU and national bodies with various partner institutions (including the one where Graham now works, IIRC). My impression is that you need people (preferably many) with lots of academic clout that can sign off on the proposal, since LilyPond itself has little formal recognition. Also, for EU research grants specifically, they were focused a lot on partnerships with and things that helped small and medium enterprises, and we couldn't invent a story around that. Just in case it helps proposals: I have a small music publishing company (http://www.edition-kainhofer.com/ ), and I exclusively use LilyPond, so you don't have to invent a story about that. A) Development of ly2xml Reviewers would probably argue that this is not really scientific research and should be funded by an industry partner instead. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
2012/2/10 Nick Payne nick.pa...@internode.on.net: On 10/02/12 10:00, Janek Warchoł wrote: Heck, let's do it! Do you know of any famous pieces of music without freely accessible scores? [...] The minimum required by the Berne convention is 50 years beyond the authors death before a work becomes public domain. Ok, here are some ideas: - Sergei Rachmaninoff died in March 1943. If we start a year-long project now, we will finish roughly when most of his works will fall out of copyright. - Maurice Ravel died in 1937 - Gabriel Faure died in 1924 - Camille Saint-Saens died in 1921 - Claude Debussy died in 1918 Thoughts? I'm pretty sure that there might be appropriate works of older composers, just like Bach's Goldberg Variations, but i'm not knowledgeable in this area. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2012/2/10 Nick Payne nick.pa...@internode.on.net: On 10/02/12 10:00, Janek Warchoł wrote: Heck, let's do it! Do you know of any famous pieces of music without freely accessible scores? [...] The minimum required by the Berne convention is 50 years beyond the authors death before a work becomes public domain. Ok, here are some ideas: - Sergei Rachmaninoff died in March 1943. If we start a year-long project now, we will finish roughly when most of his works will fall out of copyright. How would one cooperate while they are not yet out of copyright? Want to risk having your servers seized? It is in the best interest of Sergei Rachmaninoff if anybody doing things like that ends up in jail, since he was able to provide a living for his grandchildren only by selling rights to publishing companies that paid as much since they were planning to make the most of it, with him living or dead. I expect that in a few years, composers becoming famous in their life time will get life support systems paid by their publishers, preferably after they are brain dead but in a defensible way not legally dead, in order to be able to extend copyrights. Every publishing company will entertain a zombie house where some parts of composers/writers are kept legally alive for the sake of copyright extensions. - Maurice Ravel died in 1937 - Gabriel Faure died in 1924 - Camille Saint-Saens died in 1921 - Claude Debussy died in 1918 Thoughts? I'm pretty sure that there might be appropriate works of older composers, just like Bach's Goldberg Variations, but i'm not knowledgeable in this area. There is certainly quite a matter of material that would be worth publishing at a level better reviewed and controlled than somebody typed it off once. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
There are loads of music up to the 20th century that wait to be published in a good edition, but I think the kikstarter was so successful mostly because the Goldbergs are a quite popular and famous. We could easily find something appealing to scholars like me (I dream of and integral of Torelli :) ), but for the general public it may be a bit more difficult - maybe we could use a new edition of the Musical Offering? Rodolfo On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:38 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2012/2/10 Nick Payne nick.pa...@internode.on.net: On 10/02/12 10:00, Janek Warchoł wrote: Heck, let's do it! Do you know of any famous pieces of music without freely accessible scores? [...] The minimum required by the Berne convention is 50 years beyond the authors death before a work becomes public domain. Ok, here are some ideas: - Sergei Rachmaninoff died in March 1943. If we start a year-long project now, we will finish roughly when most of his works will fall out of copyright. How would one cooperate while they are not yet out of copyright? Want to risk having your servers seized? It is in the best interest of Sergei Rachmaninoff if anybody doing things like that ends up in jail, since he was able to provide a living for his grandchildren only by selling rights to publishing companies that paid as much since they were planning to make the most of it, with him living or dead. I expect that in a few years, composers becoming famous in their life time will get life support systems paid by their publishers, preferably after they are brain dead but in a defensible way not legally dead, in order to be able to extend copyrights. Every publishing company will entertain a zombie house where some parts of composers/writers are kept legally alive for the sake of copyright extensions. - Maurice Ravel died in 1937 - Gabriel Faure died in 1924 - Camille Saint-Saens died in 1921 - Claude Debussy died in 1918 Thoughts? I'm pretty sure that there might be appropriate works of older composers, just like Bach's Goldberg Variations, but i'm not knowledgeable in this area. There is certainly quite a matter of material that would be worth publishing at a level better reviewed and controlled than somebody typed it off once. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
2012/2/10 David Kastrup d...@gnu.org: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: - Sergei Rachmaninoff died in March 1943. If we start a year-long project now, we will finish roughly when most of his works will fall out of copyright. How would one cooperate while they are not yet out of copyright? Want to risk having your servers seized? Typesetting can be done by one person. Developer(s) enrolled in such a project will receive privately only snippets from the work (- quotation and fair use). Or all testing would be done by the typesetter; not hard to do. Sure, it's not the best way to work, and if appropriate composition from a longer-dead composer is found, we better do it instead and wait with Rachmaninoff till 2013. 2012/2/10 Rodolfo Zitellini xhero...@gmail.com: There are loads of music up to the 20th century that wait to be published in a good edition, but I think the kikstarter was so successful mostly because the Goldbergs are a quite popular and famous. For this very reason i'm sure that we should limit ourselves to the greatest composers only. A name instantly recognizable to anyone, even the musically ignorant, would be best: Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Handel. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On Feb 10, 2012, at 3:38 AM, David Kastrup wrote: I expect that in a few years, composers becoming famous in their life time will get life support systems paid by their publishers, preferably after they are brain dead but in a defensible way not legally dead, in order to be able to extend copyrights. Every publishing company will entertain a zombie house where some parts of composers/writers are kept legally alive for the sake of copyright extensions. LOL!!! In the US the primary driver of copyright extension ad infinitum has been Disney. When they bump up towards the 7- year limit after disney's death they will just buy enough votes in Congress to extent the copyright to 140 years. It'll cost them a few million dollars but that's a lot cheaper in the long run than running a zombie house. ;-) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
RE: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
I don't know. As technology becomes cheaper and politicians become more expensive, we may reach a tipping point where zombie houses prevail. -Original Message- From: lilypond-user-bounces+chris=crossen@gnu.org [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+chris=crossen@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Tim McNamara Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 9:15 To: User LilyPond Subject: Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond On Feb 10, 2012, at 3:38 AM, David Kastrup wrote: I expect that in a few years, composers becoming famous in their life time will get life support systems paid by their publishers, preferably after they are brain dead but in a defensible way not legally dead, in order to be able to extend copyrights. Every publishing company will entertain a zombie house where some parts of composers/writers are kept legally alive for the sake of copyright extensions. LOL!!! In the US the primary driver of copyright extension ad infinitum has been Disney. When they bump up towards the 7- year limit after disney's death they will just buy enough votes in Congress to extent the copyright to 140 years. It'll cost them a few million dollars but that's a lot cheaper in the long run than running a zombie house. ;-) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Chris Crossen ch...@crossen.net writes: lilypond-user-bounces+chris=crossen@gnu.org wrote: On Feb 10, 2012, at 3:38 AM, David Kastrup wrote: Every publishing company will entertain a zombie house where some parts of composers/writers are kept legally alive for the sake of copyright extensions. In the US the primary driver of copyright extension ad infinitum has been Disney. When they bump up towards the 7- year limit after disney's death they will just buy enough votes in Congress to extent the copyright to 140 years. It'll cost them a few million dollars but that's a lot cheaper in the long run than running a zombie house. ;-) I don't know. As technology becomes cheaper and politicians become more expensive, we may reach a tipping point where zombie houses prevail. You could combine both. The UK already has a House of Lords. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On 10/02/12 21:11, Janek Warchoł wrote: 2012/2/10 David Kastrupd...@gnu.org: Janek Warchołjanek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: - Sergei Rachmaninoff died in March 1943. If we start a year-long project now, we will finish roughly when most of his works will fall out of copyright. How would one cooperate while they are not yet out of copyright? Want to risk having your servers seized? Typesetting can be done by one person. Developer(s) enrolled in such a project will receive privately only snippets from the work (- quotation and fair use). Or all testing would be done by the typesetter; not hard to do. Sure, it's not the best way to work, and if appropriate composition from a longer-dead composer is found, we better do it instead and wait with Rachmaninoff till 2013. Rachmaninoff's works are already available from IMSLP, because their servers are located in Canada, where copyright is life plus 50 years. But the download page for each of them is prefaced with a warning that the works may not yet be public domain in your country. Nick ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu wrote: I've been thinking about the problem of sustaining LilyPond development long-term (and specifically the problem of obtaining enough money to support David K as long as he's interested). As I've thought about it, going after a grant seems the most logical thing to do. So I looked into the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. NEA has nothing that looks interesting, unfortunately. However, NEH has two initiatives that seem interesting. One is concerned with preservation; the other is concerned with improve digital access to collected materials. Guidelines for the preservation grant (which will probably be due in July) are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/HCRR.html Guidelines for the digital humanities grants are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/digitalhumanitiesstartup.html Some comments: I have tried getting grants from different EU and national bodies with various partner institutions (including the one where Graham now works, IIRC). My impression is that you need people (preferably many) with lots of academic clout that can sign off on the proposal, since LilyPond itself has little formal recognition. Also, for EU research grants specifically, they were focused a lot on partnerships with and things that helped small and medium enterprises, and we couldn't invent a story around that. As for these grants specifically: you will need to invent something outrageously new involving LilyPond (now in its 14th year of existence), to qualify for the startup grant; the collections initiative looks like a better fit. A) Development of ly2xml B) Development of a lilypond scoring standard for the project, so that scholars would know how to compare scores. C) Development of score_ocr2ly, which would take a score pdf and turn it into .ly files matching the lilypond scoring standard Heh. This is a known problem, and the OCR part is very, very difficult. It also has nothing to do with lilypond. So I'd like to ask the developers (and the users): Does this seem interesting to you? Is this something that is worth trying to put together? Is anybody interested in contributing to a grant proposal? I'd be happy to provide any references or recommendations for the LilyPond project as a whole. If there seems to be enough interest, I'll visit with the music librarian at BYU, and see if there is any institutional interest. I'd talk with someone from the local music/humanities department that has experience with writing grants and the funding body. Of course, if you got grants in the past, that might be less necessary. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Just an idea: how about a Kickstarter http://www.kickstarter.com/project? Or has this already been considered? Brent. On 9 February 2012 12:08, Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu wrote: I've been thinking about the problem of sustaining LilyPond development long-term (and specifically the problem of obtaining enough money to support David K as long as he's interested). As I've thought about it, going after a grant seems the most logical thing to do. So I looked into the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. NEA has nothing that looks interesting, unfortunately. However, NEH has two initiatives that seem interesting. One is concerned with preservation; the other is concerned with improve digital access to collected materials. Guidelines for the preservation grant (which will probably be due in July) are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/HCRR.html Guidelines for the digital humanities grants are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/digitalhumanitiesstartup.html Some comments: I have tried getting grants from different EU and national bodies with various partner institutions (including the one where Graham now works, IIRC). My impression is that you need people (preferably many) with lots of academic clout that can sign off on the proposal, since LilyPond itself has little formal recognition. Also, for EU research grants specifically, they were focused a lot on partnerships with and things that helped small and medium enterprises, and we couldn't invent a story around that. As for these grants specifically: you will need to invent something outrageously new involving LilyPond (now in its 14th year of existence), to qualify for the startup grant; the collections initiative looks like a better fit. A) Development of ly2xml B) Development of a lilypond scoring standard for the project, so that scholars would know how to compare scores. C) Development of score_ocr2ly, which would take a score pdf and turn it into .ly files matching the lilypond scoring standard Heh. This is a known problem, and the OCR part is very, very difficult. It also has nothing to do with lilypond. So I'd like to ask the developers (and the users): Does this seem interesting to you? Is this something that is worth trying to put together? Is anybody interested in contributing to a grant proposal? I'd be happy to provide any references or recommendations for the LilyPond project as a whole. If there seems to be enough interest, I'll visit with the music librarian at BYU, and see if there is any institutional interest. I'd talk with someone from the local music/humanities department that has experience with writing grants and the funding body. Of course, if you got grants in the past, that might be less necessary. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Kickstarter is USA only. On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 13:01:08 +0100 Brent Annable brentanna...@gmail.com wrote: Just an idea: how about a Kickstarter http://www.kickstarter.com/project? Or has this already been considered? Brent. On 9 February 2012 12:08, Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu wrote: I've been thinking about the problem of sustaining LilyPond development long-term (and specifically the problem of obtaining enough money to support David K as long as he's interested). As I've thought about it, going after a grant seems the most logical thing to do. So I looked into the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. NEA has nothing that looks interesting, unfortunately. However, NEH has two initiatives that seem interesting. One is concerned with preservation; the other is concerned with improve digital access to collected materials. Guidelines for the preservation grant (which will probably be due in July) are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/HCRR.html Guidelines for the digital humanities grants are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/digitalhumanitiesstartup.html Some comments: I have tried getting grants from different EU and national bodies with various partner institutions (including the one where Graham now works, IIRC). My impression is that you need people (preferably many) with lots of academic clout that can sign off on the proposal, since LilyPond itself has little formal recognition. Also, for EU research grants specifically, they were focused a lot on partnerships with and things that helped small and medium enterprises, and we couldn't invent a story around that. As for these grants specifically: you will need to invent something outrageously new involving LilyPond (now in its 14th year of existence), to qualify for the startup grant; the collections initiative looks like a better fit. A) Development of ly2xml B) Development of a lilypond scoring standard for the project, so that scholars would know how to compare scores. C) Development of score_ocr2ly, which would take a score pdf and turn it into .ly files matching the lilypond scoring standard Heh. This is a known problem, and the OCR part is very, very difficult. It also has nothing to do with lilypond. So I'd like to ask the developers (and the users): Does this seem interesting to you? Is this something that is worth trying to put together? Is anybody interested in contributing to a grant proposal? I'd be happy to provide any references or recommendations for the LilyPond project as a whole. If there seems to be enough interest, I'll visit with the music librarian at BYU, and see if there is any institutional interest. I'd talk with someone from the local music/humanities department that has experience with writing grants and the funding body. Of course, if you got grants in the past, that might be less necessary. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On 2/9/12 5:38 AM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: Kickstarter is USA only. But someone in the USA can do a kickstarter project and spend the money any way they want to. I thought about kickstarter as well. But what would you promise the investors as return on the project? A free copy of LilyPond? Not much of an advantage for an open-source software package. Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcome. It's much easier to put together a kickstarter proposal than a NEH grant. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
For what it's worth, I know of several musicians who have successfully funded international Kickstarter projects. On Thursday, February 09, 2012 09:40:22 AM Carl Sorensen wrote: On 2/9/12 5:38 AM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: Kickstarter is USA only. But someone in the USA can do a kickstarter project and spend the money any way they want to. I thought about kickstarter as well. But what would you promise the investors as return on the project? A free copy of LilyPond? Not much of an advantage for an open-source software package. Any thoughts you have on this subject would be welcome. It's much easier to put together a kickstarter proposal than a NEH grant. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Saul Tobin http://SaulTobin.com/ ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
2012/2/9 Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu: On 2/9/12 5:38 AM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: Kickstarter is USA only. But someone in the USA can do a kickstarter project and spend the money any way they want to. I thought about kickstarter as well. But what would you promise the investors as return on the project? A free copy of LilyPond? Not much of an advantage for an open-source software package. Not sure if i understand correctly how Kickstarter works, but what about a project for creating a free typeset edition of some famous piece (like Mozart's Requiem)? The funds would be split between typesetter and programmer who implements necessary features. I could do the typesetting part. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
2012/2/9 Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com: Not sure if i understand correctly how Kickstarter works, but what about a project for creating a free typeset edition of some famous piece (like Mozart's Requiem)? The funds would be split between typesetter and programmer who implements necessary features. I could do the typesetting part. And if you add a musician that would do a recording of the piece and release it for free (as in free software, not only free beer) you would obtain something like the Open Goldberg Variations project. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/293573191/open-goldberg-variations-setting-bach-free There it's MuseScore that is used as typesetting software. http://musescore.org/en/node/10118 There is also the idea of a LilyPond score sharing website, similar to musescore.com . http://musescore.com/upgrade As I said: IIRC lasconic (Nicolas Froment) said the 3 main developers of MuseScore (Werner Schweer, Thomas Bonte and himself) are now working full-time on MuseScore [thanks to their fundings]. Several users/contributers, including Janek, showed some interest in a MuseScore-LilyPond synergy. BTW I have read that there is a project of Smart coupling between Audiveris (open-source Optical Music Recognition) and MuseScore. http://fosdem.org/2012/schedule/event/audiveris A kind of synergy (in both directions) between the file format of musescore and .ly would also allow a conversion musicxml - musescore - .ly . Don't know if that would be easy though. I sent an e-mail to lasconic to have further informations about all I say (all I kind of remember). Cheers, Xavier -- Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 23:04:35 +0100 Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/2/9 Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com: Not sure if i understand correctly how Kickstarter works, but what about a project for creating a free typeset edition of some famous piece (like Mozart's Requiem)? The funds would be split between typesetter and programmer who implements necessary features. I could do the typesetting part. And if you add a musician that would do a recording of the piece and release it for free (as in free software, not only free beer) you would obtain something like the Open Goldberg Variations project. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/293573191/open-goldberg-variations-setting-bach-free There it's MuseScore that is used as typesetting software. http://musescore.org/en/node/10118 There is also the idea of a LilyPond score sharing website, similar to musescore.com . http://musescore.com/upgrade As I said: IIRC lasconic (Nicolas Froment) said the 3 main developers of MuseScore (Werner Schweer, Thomas Bonte and himself) are now working full-time on MuseScore [thanks to their fundings]. Several users/contributers, including Janek, showed some interest in a MuseScore-LilyPond synergy. BTW I have read that there is a project of Smart coupling between Audiveris (open-source Optical Music Recognition) and MuseScore. http://fosdem.org/2012/schedule/event/audiveris A kind of synergy (in both directions) between the file format of musescore and .ly would also allow a conversion musicxml - musescore - .ly . Don't know if that would be easy though. I sent an e-mail to lasconic to have further informations about all I say (all I kind of remember). Cheers, Xavier -- Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com Don't use musescore. Lilypond Musescore is like Photoshop and MS Paint. Just because there is no famous GUI which is made for Lilypond does not mean to take the second best. Nils ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
2012/2/9 Xavier Scheuer x.sche...@gmail.com: 2012/2/9 Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com: Not sure if i understand correctly how Kickstarter works, but what about a project for creating a free typeset edition of some famous piece (like Mozart's Requiem)? The funds would be split between typesetter and programmer who implements necessary features. I could do the typesetting part. And if you add a musician that would do a recording of the piece and release it for free (as in free software, not only free beer) you would obtain something like the Open Goldberg Variations project. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/293573191/open-goldberg-variations-setting-bach-free There it's MuseScore that is used as typesetting software. 8O $23 000... Unbelievable!! So simple and so effective. Heck, let's do it! Do you know of any famous pieces of music without freely accessible scores? I have only one shot now, but it isn't perfect: Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings was composed in 1936 but the composer died not-so-long-ago (1981). Still, it's possible that in some countries the work itself might be out of copyright. Several users/contributers, including Janek, showed some interest in a MuseScore-LilyPond synergy. BTW I have read that there is a project of Smart coupling between Audiveris (open-source Optical Music Recognition) and MuseScore. http://fosdem.org/2012/schedule/event/audiveris A kind of synergy (in both directions) between the file format of musescore and .ly would also allow a conversion musicxml - musescore - .ly . I feel motivated to write down my thoughts on this topic :) cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:00:21AM +0100, Janek Warchoł wrote: Do you know of any famous pieces of music without freely accessible scores? I have only one shot now, but it isn't perfect: Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings was composed in 1936 but the composer died not-so-long-ago (1981). Still, it's possible that in some countries the work itself might be out of copyright. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but I believe that this work is still in copyright in every country that is a signatory to the Berne convention -- which means pretty much everywhere. - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On 10/02/12 10:00, Janek Warchoł wrote: 2012/2/9 Xavier Scheuerx.sche...@gmail.com: 2012/2/9 Janek Warchołjanek.lilyp...@gmail.com: Not sure if i understand correctly how Kickstarter works, but what about a project for creating a free typeset edition of some famous piece (like Mozart's Requiem)? The funds would be split between typesetter and programmer who implements necessary features. I could do the typesetting part. And if you add a musician that would do a recording of the piece and release it for free (as in free software, not only free beer) you would obtain something like the Open Goldberg Variations project. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/293573191/open-goldberg-variations-setting-bach-free There it's MuseScore that is used as typesetting software. 8O $23 000... Unbelievable!! So simple and so effective. Heck, let's do it! Do you know of any famous pieces of music without freely accessible scores? I have only one shot now, but it isn't perfect: Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings was composed in 1936 but the composer died not-so-long-ago (1981). Still, it's possible that in some countries the work itself might be out of copyright. The minimum required by the Berne convention is 50 years beyond the authors death before a work becomes public domain. Here in Australia, as in the US and EU, it's 70 years. So if Barber died in 1981, his works won't become public domain until 2051. And depending on the country, the publication from which you were working would also have had to be published before 1981. Nick ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Developers, I've been thinking about the problem of sustaining LilyPond development long-term (and specifically the problem of obtaining enough money to support David K as long as he's interested). As I've thought about it, going after a grant seems the most logical thing to do. So I looked into the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. NEA has nothing that looks interesting, unfortunately. However, NEH has two initiatives that seem interesting. One is concerned with preservation; the other is concerned with improve digital access to collected materials. Guidelines for the preservation grant (which will probably be due in July) are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/HCRR.html Guidelines for the digital humanities grants are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/digitalhumanitiesstartup.html A past NEH grant has been use to put pdf copies of sheet music on line with indexed metadata. You can see the results in the Sheet Music Consortium: http://digital2.library.ucla.edu/sheetmusic/browse.html This is cool information, but it can't be readily studied musically. If the scores were converted from graphical information to musical information (e.g. In a lilypond file), then the collections could be digitally searched by analyzing the musical information. So, for example, someone could do a study that compared musical trends from different decades, in terms of chord structures, or ambitus, or key signatures, or who knows what. Note: a grant was just awarded for such a study -- look at ELVIS on this page: http://www.diggingintodata.org/Home/AwardRecipients2011/tabid/185/Default.a spx There is also an DFG/NEH digital humanities program on Enriching Digital Collections: http://www.neh.gov/whoweare/divisions/DigitalHumanities/DFGEDCprojects.html So it seems to me we might be able to propose a grant to establish infrastructure supporting a digital score repository to go along with the sheet music consortium. Some tasks that might be supportable under such a grant: A) Development of ly2xml B) Development of a lilypond scoring standard for the project, so that scholars would know how to compare scores. C) Development of score_ocr2ly, which would take a score pdf and turn it into .ly files matching the lilypond scoring standard D) Development of lilypond tools for supporting instruments (such as the accordion and harmonica) that may only be minimally supported at this time E) Development of improved tablature support F) Development of tools supporting musicological analysis of lilypond scores Some tasks that would be required under such a grant (but that might be less interesting to developers): A) Converting pdf scores to lilypond scores B) Integrating lilypond score archives with existing digital collection archives So I'd like to ask the developers (and the users): Does this seem interesting to you? Is this something that is worth trying to put together? Is anybody interested in contributing to a grant proposal? If there seems to be enough interest, I'll visit with the music librarian at BYU, and see if there is any institutional interest. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes: Developers, I've been thinking about the problem of sustaining LilyPond development long-term (and specifically the problem of obtaining enough money to support David K as long as he's interested). One problem with grants is that they make it _much_ harder than individual contributions to travel across borders. Frankly, I am rather annoyed at the general assertion I would not pay any individual, but if The Project TM would have a donate button, I would consider using it. The Project TM needs setting up administration and basically a trust mechanism and so on that ensures that not something happens like 6000€ being collected and then somebody disappears with that money, leaving the contributors with empty hands. Or, more probably, 6000€ get collected and the majority of that is burnt for administrative tasks while the machinery churns away figuring out how to distribute. If you donate 6000€ to me and I disappear with the money tomorrow, there is still all the already accomplished work in LilyPond (that figure is not entirely arbitrary: it is about the amount that my personal account declined since the time I have been doing nothing but LilyPond, and I am not exactly a spendthrift). So it is not even a matter of trust. However stupid this may be, however, people won't consider paying for anything that can't be taken from them again. And people are not comfortable giving money to a person, but only to a cause. Because they could not otherwise justify the expense. This is the silliness one has to work with, but I'd rather avoid having to wrack my brain about this as well. It makes me mad, and that does not improve the amount of work I get done. So I most certainly would appreciate it if others thought about the infrastructure that is required for making people happy with paying me for what I would like to be doing. It is totally silly that intermediate layers like that are required for getting people to deal with the realities of what it takes to get something done in a setting involving people contributing various and dissimilar resources, but that's the way it is. And I am lousy of making the best of that. I prefer not dealing with realities I can't or do not want to make sense of, but of course it can't be avoided in the long run. It is not something I am good at. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
2012/2/8 Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu: Guidelines for the preservation grant (which will probably be due in July) are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/HCRR.html Guidelines for the digital humanities grants are shown here: http://www.neh.gov/grants/guidelines/digitalhumanitiesstartup.html They both seem related to our work indeed. B) Development of a lilypond scoring standard for the project, so that scholars would know how to compare scores. Do you mean creating a standard lily code formatting style? C) Development of score_ocr2ly, which would take a score pdf and turn it into .ly files matching the lilypond scoring standard From the user's perspective, this is extremely cool. From contributor's perspective, i have no idea what kind of task is this. i think that doing GLISS would be important if we wanted Lily to be used in big libraries. I'm keen to work on GLISS. So I'd like to ask the developers (and the users): Does this seem interesting to you? Is this something that is worth trying to put together? I'm interested, both as a user and as a contributor. Is anybody interested in contributing to a grant proposal? You mean writing it? I have 0 experience writing formal papers like this. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 02:29:00PM +, Carl Sorensen wrote: So I looked into the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. I could see this funding Americans to work on lilypond programming while living in America. I could see this potentially funding Americans to work on lilypond programming while living outside of America (i.e. Mike Solomon). I could see this potentially funding non-Americans to work on lilypond programming while living in America (i.e. hiring a foreign post-doc, which requires a work visa and all that fun stuff; it's probably a manageable inconvenience if you're talking about somebody with a PhD working at a university being funded from a research grant, but not manageable in other situations). I can not see this funding non-Americans working outside of America. This is cool information, but it can't be readily studied musically. There was a lot of work on MIR (music information retrieval) for symbolic music (i.e. sheet music) in the 90s. Most of that used MIDI, but for better or worse, these days almost all of that kind of work has been done with musicxml. I can imagine such a grant going through if we sell it as a backend rendering program for musicxml, relying on musicxml2ly. It would be much harder to sell it if we talked about lilypond input directly. So I'd like to ask the developers (and the users): Does this seem interesting to you? Is this something that is worth trying to put together? Is anybody interested in contributing to a grant proposal? I've said that grants are the best way to have commercial funding for lilypond. However, they tend to be country-specific. For David, an EU grant would be best; I am pessimistic that he could be funded with a US grant unless he was willing to move there. The other question is whether to aim the grant directly at lilypond, or instead include a bit of lilypond development as part of a different grant. Just like most (US) universities skim 10%-50% off of any grant for operating expenses, a grant could direct 10-20% of its money towards program development, ideally focused on its area. For example, I could imagine a grant to preserve the history of Spanish guitar music spending maybe 10% on general lilypond development, 10% on tablature-specific lilypond development, and the rest on students to typeset guitar music, make scores available online, write a book, etc etc. I know that some people have some amount of contact with IRCAM; I can definitely imagine a EU grant to support modern composition styles (or specifically graphical notation and the like). The EU tends to like grants being split over multiple countries, so I could totally see a grant being shared by Mike, David, and 2 or 3 other people (ideally in new member states, because a grant application to be spent all in France and Germany isn't likely to go far!). - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 02:29:00PM +, Carl Sorensen wrote: So I looked into the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. I could see this funding Americans to work on lilypond programming while living in America. I could see this potentially funding Americans to work on lilypond programming while living outside of America (i.e. Mike Solomon). [...] I can not see this funding non-Americans working outside of America. For what it is worth, I can wave an American citizenship around if required for this purpose. But even while I am probably looking like one of the more interesting venues of turning funding into progress, it would be good to figure out non-US-centric approaches as well. I've said that grants are the best way to have commercial funding for lilypond. However, they tend to be country-specific. For David, an EU grant would be best; I am pessimistic that he could be funded with a US grant unless he was willing to move there. As I said: the required citizenship would be available, but indeed most US-specific funding options tend to have US residency attached. The other question is whether to aim the grant directly at lilypond, or instead include a bit of lilypond development as part of a different grant. Just like most (US) universities skim 10%-50% off of any grant for operating expenses, a grant could direct 10-20% of its money towards program development, ideally focused on its area. For example, I could imagine a grant to preserve the history of Spanish guitar music spending maybe 10% on general lilypond development, 10% on tablature-specific lilypond development, and the rest on students to typeset guitar music, make scores available online, write a book, etc etc. The problem is to find a nice middle path between grantability and general usefulness. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On 2/8/12 11:01 AM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 02:29:00PM +, Carl Sorensen wrote: So I looked into the National Endowment for the Arts and the National Endowment for the Humanities. I could see this funding Americans to work on lilypond programming while living in America. I could see this potentially funding Americans to work on lilypond programming while living outside of America (i.e. Mike Solomon). I could see this potentially funding non-Americans to work on lilypond programming while living in America (i.e. hiring a foreign post-doc, which requires a work visa and all that fun stuff; it's probably a manageable inconvenience if you're talking about somebody with a PhD working at a university being funded from a research grant, but not manageable in other situations). I can not see this funding non-Americans working outside of America. If you look at the links, many of the successful grants either invite or require multiple country involvement. As a grantee, I think that a university is free to purchase services from wherever it is desired. If I were a PI, I'd much rather support LilyPond development by purchasing services from David Kastrup than by paying a grad student or post-doc; I'd get much more bang for my buck that way. And LilyPond development *isn't* the academic content of the grant; it's infrastructural support. The development of standardized LilyPond input structures that could be readily parsed, as well as the tools to parse such structures, would be more likely to be the academic content of the grant, and would be more likely to need spending at the university receiving the grant. This is cool information, but it can't be readily studied musically. There was a lot of work on MIR (music information retrieval) for symbolic music (i.e. sheet music) in the 90s. Most of that used MIDI, but for better or worse, these days almost all of that kind of work has been done with musicxml. I can imagine such a grant going through if we sell it as a backend rendering program for musicxml, relying on musicxml2ly. It would be much harder to sell it if we talked about lilypond input directly. I'm not 100% sure of this. One of the disadvantages of musicXML is that it is relatively semantic-free. (Of course, that's an advantage in terms of automatic creation of musixXML -- semantics aren't needed to be understood.) I believe that the fundamental of appropriately capturing musical semantics, which is part of the core underpinning of LilyPond, could make it potentially useful for music scholarship. As such, I think it could be an interesting high-risk, high-potential application for a planning grant. Of course, before significant effort would be expended in writing a grant proposal, I'd need to talk with the responsible funding officials in the NEH to see if such an idea is even interesting to them. And before I got to that point, I'd need to put together some talks with musicological researchers so we could formulate a proposal that is even interesting to them. But I won't even go that far if there's no interest from enough of the LilyPond community to cause me to believe that we might be able to put together an international team to do something. So I'd like to ask the developers (and the users): Does this seem interesting to you? Is this something that is worth trying to put together? Is anybody interested in contributing to a grant proposal? I've said that grants are the best way to have commercial funding for lilypond. However, they tend to be country-specific. For David, an EU grant would be best; I am pessimistic that he could be funded with a US grant unless he was willing to move As I mentioned above, a joint US-German grant would work nicely for David, IMO. The other question is whether to aim the grant directly at lilypond, or instead include a bit of lilypond development as part of a different grant. Just like most (US) universities skim 10%-50% off of any grant for operating expenses, a grant could direct 10-20% of its money towards program development, ideally focused on its area. For example, I could imagine a grant to preserve the history of Spanish guitar music spending maybe 10% on general lilypond development, 10% on tablature-specific lilypond development, and the rest on students to typeset guitar music, make scores available online, write a book, etc etc. I'm quite certain that the grant sources I've identified at this point won't support a grant that says Develop LilyPond. Instead, the grant has to be Do something interesting supporting research in humanities (I.e. music). The LilyPond work has to be supported based on achieving the desired academic goals. But I don't think that's unreasonable to propose. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 07:11:26PM +, Carl Sorensen wrote: On 2/8/12 11:01 AM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: I can not see this funding non-Americans working outside of America. If you look at the links, many of the successful grants either invite or require multiple country involvement. ah, I'd missed that! I'd also forgotten about David's American citizenship. And before I got to that point, I'd need to put together some talks with musicological researchers so we could formulate a proposal that is even interesting to them. BTW, you might want to cc Jonathan Kulp directly, since he *is* a US musicologist. Even if his research interests aren't directly tied to lilypond, I'd expect him to at least know others US musicologists who would be directly interested in such a grant. But I won't even go that far if there's no interest from enough of the LilyPond community to cause me to believe that we might be able to put together an international team to do something. Depends on how international you want to go, how closely tied to music it needs to be, and how academic the people need to be. There's Peter Chubb in Australia; he worked on the robotic clarinet player. My supervisor in the UK had a recent phd student who did stuff on a database for musicology, combining sensor readings with lilypond scores. etc. The LilyPond work has to be supported based on achieving the desired academic goals. But I don't think that's unreasonable to propose. Oh, I definitely don't think that's unreasonable to propose! There's definitely potential; it just depends on how much real interest there is in actually coordinating the grant application. - Graham ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:24:08 + Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: Depends on how international you want to go, how closely tied to music it needs to be, and how academic the people need to be. There's Peter Chubb in Australia; he worked on the robotic clarinet player. My supervisor in the UK had a recent phd student who did stuff on a database for musicology, combining sensor readings with lilypond scores. etc. Don't choose musicologists from Germany then. They, in general, don't have a clue about music theory. And if I understand it correctly this is about using the lilypond format to generate and extract more information about the music (from statistics to interpretation). The reason is that musicology here has more to do with Biographics or Sociology. Music instrument training, notation knowledge or other fundamentals of music are not required to study or teach it (University Level) it in Germany. Search instead for Music Theorists, which is a seperate thing here. Often combined with historical composition, it is then called Tonsatz. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsatz . No English translation. I have only read half of this thread, but is it about finding people or supporting the existent Lilypond Developers with money to do their regular great work? Nils ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
On 8 Feb 2012, at 20:57, Nils wrote: The reason is that musicology here has more to do with Biographics or Sociology. Music instrument training, notation knowledge or other fundamentals of music are not required to study or teach it (University Level) it in Germany. Search instead for Music Theorists, which is a seperate thing here. Often combined with historical composition, it is then called Tonsatz. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsatz . No English translation. In English, it is musical composition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_composition This article is linked back to the German https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komposition_(Musik) The Swedish WP entry Tonsättning redirects to Komposition, which is linked to the English article above. Paul Hindemith's book Unterweisung im Tonsatz is in English The Craft of Musical Composition. Hans ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
2012/2/8 Nils l...@nilsgey.de: I have only read half of this thread, but is it about finding people or supporting the existent Lilypond Developers with money to do their regular great work? More of the latter, but to make it possible it might be necessary to find some people first. I.e. there are small chances to receive a grant for David Kastrup. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Thinking about putting together a grant to support development on LilyPond
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: 2012/2/8 Nils l...@nilsgey.de: I have only read half of this thread, but is it about finding people or supporting the existent Lilypond Developers with money to do their regular great work? More of the latter, but to make it possible it might be necessary to find some people first. I.e. there are small chances to receive a grant for David Kastrup. This is more or less what it boils down to at the moment, simply because I am, as it seems, currently the only person who is single-minded enough to not be able to do a regular job in parallel with keeping focus on LilyPond enough to make a difference. In my mind, this is not supposed to be a money sink rather than a starting investment: I hope to contribute to making LilyPond a serious option for further investments. LilyPond has a few things going for it: there is a large inheritage of great music that is already in the public domain. LilyPond would be a great contender for maintaining publically accessible databases of importance. What is needed for that is a robustness in the sources: a) getting serious quality without version-specific tweaks b) a dependable upgrade plan when LilyPond advances c) good conversion to MusicXML d) possibly also good import e) good human readability in case machine translation fails for some reason f) reasonably easy machine readability outside of LilyPond Maintaining a cultural database in proprietary formats like Finale is a recipe for trouble: if at one point company or format or compatibility fail, the content becomes inaccessible. This is a big selling point for LilyPond, and if it makes progress in some other areas, it will become interesting for this sort of task also outside of the public domain area. If it becomes commercially viable to reissue classics using a public LilyPond database as a starting point, there will be a sizable market for LilyPond skills. But I don't see us there yet, and a good part of my focus is on work leading there. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
