Re: clef bass_16
On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 12:24, Valentin Petzel wrote:
>
> To be more general the clef modifier specifies a shift in steps where we start
> with 1 as unison. So as an octave is 7 steps n octaves will have a shift of
> 7*n, but we will add a 1 as we start with 1 = unison, which gives 0+1 = 1, 7+1
> = 8, 14+1 = 15, 21+1 = 22, ...
>
> Also the correct suffix would be 8va for ottava, but not 15va but 15ma for
> quindicesima, and similar then 22ma for ventiduesima.
>
> The suffix 8vb for the lower octavions is sadly quite common nowadays, but
> quite
> stupid. It essentially assumes that 8va would be a contraction of "ottava
> alta" and thus uses 8vb as "ottava bassa", when in fact 8va is only a
> contraction of "ottava".
>
> If anything one should use 8va alta or 8aa for "ottava alta" and 8va bassa or
> 8ab for "ottava bassa" (the va or the first a should be superscript, the a/b
> normal text). The use of 8vb for "ottava bassa" leads to confusion, for if a
> score uses 8va below the staff people will then be confused whether to
> octavate
> that part up or down.
>
> So it is better to avoid the use of 8vb and such, as it is not traditional
> notation, it will cause confusion and does not offer any additional
> information. The only case where this is relevant is when you notate an
> ottavation down above the stave, in which case 8va bassa is much clearer than
> doing 8vb.
>
> With regards to software both Finale and MuseScore have abandoned the use of
> 8vb and Dorico has opted for 8ba. The general preference seems to go in the
> direction of only printing the number, but if we print a suffix at this point
> 8vb is only advocated by Sibelius and the Lilypond glossary (which
> interestingly marks the 8va below as "unusual" as compared to the less
> traditional and more debated 8vb ... also the glossary suggests 15ma above the
> staff and 15va below the staff).
>
> Cheers,
> Valentin
>
I completely agree with you. My take is that ottava markings are such
a debated topic because of overlapping different traditions, increased
usage of instruments' lowest and highest range, the understandable
misunderstanding of abbreviations in Italian language, different
publishers preferences, etc. My personal preference nowadays is to
use only the number, or '8va'. I don't like the highly disputed 8vb,
but I find it completely clear and it seems it is the standard in some
countries / communities.
Also the name of the sign itself can be confusing: is it a bracket, a
sign, a mark, or a line? I personally call it a line or a mark.
However, when I search for how to write it in Lilypond, I have to
remember to google 'ottava bracket'. Otherwise, if I search for
'octave mark' I get either the glossary page (where it is actually
called 'octave mark'), or Lilypond's octave changing mark (' or ,).
Cheers,
Lib
Re: clef bass_16
Le vendredi 23 juin 2023 à 01:11 +0200, Jakob Pedersen a écrit : > You need to use \clef "bass_15" to get it down another octave, not 16. > That's a step too far. Coincidentally, someone was having this exact same problem on the French-speaking list last week. Perhaps LilyPond should emit a (silenceable) warning when the clef transposition is not an integer number of octaves. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: clef bass_16
To be more general the clef modifier specifies a shift in steps where we start with 1 as unison. So as an octave is 7 steps n octaves will have a shift of 7*n, but we will add a 1 as we start with 1 = unison, which gives 0+1 = 1, 7+1 = 8, 14+1 = 15, 21+1 = 22, ... Also the correct suffix would be 8va for ottava, but not 15va but 15ma for quindicesima, and similar then 22ma for ventiduesima. The suffix 8vb for the lower octavions is sadly quite common nowadays, but quite stupid. It essentially assumes that 8va would be a contraction of "ottava alta" and thus uses 8vb as "ottava bassa", when in fact 8va is only a contraction of "ottava". If anything one should use 8va alta or 8aa for "ottava alta" and 8va bassa or 8ab for "ottava bassa" (the va or the first a should be superscript, the a/b normal text). The use of 8vb for "ottava bassa" leads to confusion, for if a score uses 8va below the staff people will then be confused whether to octavate that part up or down. So it is better to avoid the use of 8vb and such, as it is not traditional notation, it will cause confusion and does not offer any additional information. The only case where this is relevant is when you notate an ottavation down above the stave, in which case 8va bassa is much clearer than doing 8vb. With regards to software both Finale and MuseScore have abandoned the use of 8vb and Dorico has opted for 8ba. The general preference seems to go in the direction of only printing the number, but if we print a suffix at this point 8vb is only advocated by Sibelius and the Lilypond glossary (which interestingly marks the 8va below as "unusual" as compared to the less traditional and more debated 8vb ... also the glossary suggests 15ma above the staff and 15va below the staff). Cheers, Valentin Am Freitag, 23. Juni 2023, 03:15:27 CEST schrieb Andrew Bernard: > In notation octavations both up and down are always 8 and 15. Nothing to > do with lilypond specifically. So 8va, 15va, 8vb, 15vb. These apply to > clefs and octavation lines. > > > Andrew signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: clef bass_16
Which most people are not. :-) On 23/06/2023 4:48 pm, Mark Knoop wrote: Unless you're Olivier Messiaen...
Re: clef bass_16
At 11:15 on 23 Jun 2023, Andrew Bernard wrote: > In notation octavations both up and down are always 8 and 15. Nothing > to do with lilypond specifically. So 8va, 15va, 8vb, 15vb. These apply > to clefs and octavation lines. Unless you're Olivier Messiaen... -- Mark Knoop
Re: clef bass_16
In notation octavations both up and down are always 8 and 15. Nothing to do with lilypond specifically. So 8va, 15va, 8vb, 15vb. These apply to clefs and octavation lines. Andrew
Re: clef bass_16
yes, thanks David answered with the '15' which I forgot to include as a thank you to the list. the slash was always part of the piece. thanks to all. j On 2023-06-22 17:11, Jakob Pedersen wrote: Hi j You need to use \clef "bass_15" to get it down another octave, not 16. That's a step too far. Best wishes, J On 23.06.2023 00.58, jh wrote: Hello- I can't seem to find the forum page to ask this, in fact so much has changed that perhaps I will not understand the answer. for Contrabass I have used \clef "bass_8" I need to go down another octave so I input \clef "bass_16" but the notation output prints a note one step higher than expected. example input g, and it's on the bass clef a space. what am I supposed to write? j -- Thank you Sound & Silence 1814 Lake Washington Blvd. So., Seattle, Wa. 98144 _206-328-7694 or messages at 206-308-8189_ _www.soundand.com [1]_ Links: -- [1] http://www.soundand.com
Re: clef bass_16
Hi j You need to use \clef "bass_15" to get it down another octave, not 16. That's a step too far. Best wishes, J On 23.06.2023 00.58, jh wrote: Hello- I can't seem to find the forum page to ask this, in fact so much has changed that perhaps I will not understand the answer. for Contrabass I have used \clef "bass_8" I need to go down another octave so I input \clef "bass_16" but the notation output prints a note one step higher than expected. example input g, and it's on the bass clef a space. what am I supposed to write? j -- Thank you Sound & Silence 1814 Lake Washington Blvd. So., Seattle, Wa. 98144 /206-328-7694 or messages at 206-308-8189/ /www.soundand.com/
clef bass_16
Hello- I can't seem to find the forum page to ask this, in fact so much has changed that perhaps I will not understand the answer. for Contrabass I have used \clef "bass_8" I need to go down another octave so I input \clef "bass_16" but the notation output prints a note one step higher than expected. example input g, and it's on the bass clef a space. what am I supposed to write? j -- Thank you Sound & Silence 1814 Lake Washington Blvd. So., Seattle, Wa. 98144 _206-328-7694 or messages at 206-308-8189_ _www.soundand.com_
