Re: 7.5 package levels

[R P Herrold]

On Thu, 24 May 2018, Timothy Sipples wrote:

> Russ Herrold wrote:
> > It may turn out that we (ClefOS) need to fork and offer two
> > variants
>
> I guess I'd call them "streams" rather than "forks."

One might, but in Red Hat parlance the 'Z' [a namespace
collision here, NOT referring to Arch] extended support tail
is called a 'stream ;)

> For what it's worth, Red Hat seems to offer at least 3 major
> streams now: Fedora (their "community" release), RHEL
> Structure A, and RHEL

The argument might be made, actually that there is a fourth:
CentOS
in light of their take-over and re-casting of that project a
few years back.  As one of its three founders, I was perfectly
happy to simply keep the community's source code resources
available in a binary form, simply replicating RHEL, deviation
for deviation, bug for bug.  Post acquisition, RHT added a
plethora of distractions, and started using CentOS as a second
'testing bench' but without so much of that pesky community
'hoots and hollars' which the Fedoraproject developed

> The RHEL Structure A/RHEL pair of streams is a unique
> offering for the s390x architecture branch, at least for
> now. (Is it a one-time aberration or the start of something
> new? I have no idea, so ask Red Hat, I guess.)

I spent some time researching this yesterday.  The kernel-alt
variant seems to be timed as to release mid RHEL 7, priced and
positioned to be a 'hard core' and high volume performance
engine for (particularly Z based) Docker / Open Shift / Atomic
transient / ephemeral common kernel instances [isolated by
Linux cgroups, and SElinux], rather than lots of 'each running
a potentially different kernel' KVM Open Stack instances,
which may be long-lived.  "Open Shift" vs "Open Stack" is
another of those unfortunately chosen nameings, as the
initials 'O.S.' here as to two differing virtualization
technologies, as well as the commonly used: Operating System
;)

> In RHEL 7.5, Red Hat decided to offer kernel 3.10 (only) for
> all POWER processors prior to POWER9, and (only) kernel 4.14
> for POWER9. For X86-64 it's only 3.10, and for ARM64 it's
> only 4.14.

Look again, but think about shared kernel spaces, and it makes
more sense.  This gets RHT an uplift on the kernel (and the
nice additions for Z in 4.14) and 'buys some time' as to the
fact that the 'long lived Enterprise maintainability' model
that RHEL offers, is really _too long_ for people wanting to
respond in a more _agile_ fashion, and to also provide a
platform capable of running the 'latest and greatest'

RHEL-next (externally, and for partially historical reasons,
RHT employees do not call formally call the next Major release
'8' yet, as it has not shipped yet / some 'leaks' by others
in bug trackers call it '8') has the longest ever interval
after its prior Major.  Up to 1600 days since the RHEL 7 drop
as of Apr 30 2018.  Previous intervals were:
574 days after RHL EE 6.2E
637 days after RHEL 2.1
476 days after RHEL 3
506 days after RHEL 4
1309 days after RHEL 5
1302 days after RHEL 6

> There are certain newer capabilities that RHEL 7.5 doesn't
> support on s390x that RHEL 7.5 Structure A does. Red Hat's
> release notes explain all that.

Lots of new nuggets in those Release Notes which were not in
the Beta copy.  I'll miss sendmail, but not XFS

Actually there was a lightly publicized 'stalking horse'
'testing candidate' as well:
RHEL 7.4 variant with an -alt kernel

I again use 'variant', as it varied, and will not use the
over-loaded word: fork here ;)

> But it's possible to mix RHEL and RHEL Structure A instances
> on the same machine and in a Red Hat supported way. (And,
> for that matter, other supported RHEL releases.)

You have the benefit of potential access in light of IBM's
long time and current collaboration with RHT, and I
hope so, but building a clean testing candidate has been
tricky

It turns out there is also a difference in how an 'El Torito'
capable [needed for one deployment method on Z] CD vs a DVD
image is spun, as there are s390x specific size requirements
that differ from other Arches, and some tooling changes were
needed

It's no big deal to have this kind of delay building a
community rebuild of sources.  The test 7.5 binary packages
will 'yum update' over a base install of an earlier ClefOS 7
variant just fine.  The ability to move the absolute
underlying base kernel back and forth between the 3.10 and the
4.14 series seems unlikely, and really, not something that
might not be better done with a fresh install.  There is the
open question, which I have not tested yet, about trying a
kernel-3 to kernel[-alt]-4 transition, but again, probably
better done with a fresh install.  It will probably end up
with a minimal installer image based on each

Thank you for your insights

> 
> Timothy Sipples
> IT Architect Executive, 

Re: 7.5 package levels

[Neale Ferguson]

Out of curiosity what is in s390utils-2.x that wouldn't work on a 3.10 kernel?

On 5/24/18, 03:01, "Linux on 390 Port on behalf of Viktor VM Mihajlovski" 
 wrote:

On 24.05.2018 06:59, Timothy Sipples wrote:
Specifically, RHEL Structure A is required to run KVM guests on IBM Z.
Guests can be either RHEL and RHEL Structure A. Another thing to keep in
mind is that the s390utils-* releases are different. For RHEL it's
1.23.0 and for RHEL Structure A it's 2.1.0.
 


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Re: 7.5 package levels

[Neale Ferguson]

The 3.10 works fine with Docker. There are a couple of things like criu that 
require things in the 4.1x kernel but this is not essential. I run OpenShift 
Origin 3.9 under docker 1.13 under the 3.10 kernel.

On 5/24/18, 09:19, "Linux on 390 Port on behalf of Terri C. Glowaniak" 
<LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU on behalf of terri.glowan...@regions.com> wrote:

I found this in the RHEL7.5 release notes..

The 3.10 kernel version does not support KVM virtualization and containers 
on IBM z Systems. Both of these features are supported on the 4.14 kernel on 
IBM z Systems - this offerring is also referred to as Structure A.

I run z/VM as the hypervisor, so I am assuming I would need RHEL7 Structure 
A to do containers?


Thanks,
Terri Glowaniak

 

-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of 
Viktor VM Mihajlovski
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 2:01 AM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
    Subject: Re: 7.5 package levels

[External Content] Please use caution.

On 24.05.2018 06:59, Timothy Sipples wrote:
> Russ Herrold wrote:
>> It may turn out that we (ClefOS) need to fork and offer two variants
>
> I guess I'd call them "streams" rather than "forks."
>
> For what it's worth, Red Hat seems to offer at least 3 major streams now:
> Fedora (their "community" release), RHEL Structure A, and RHEL. The 
> RHEL Structure A/RHEL pair of streams is a unique offering for the 
> s390x architecture branch, at least for now. (Is it a one-time 
> aberration or the start of something new? I have no idea, so ask Red 
> Hat, I guess.) In RHEL 7.5, Red Hat decided to offer kernel 3.10 
> (only) for all POWER processors prior to POWER9, and (only) kernel 
> 4.14 for POWER9. For X86-64 it's only 3.10, and for ARM64 it's only 4.14.
>
> There are certain newer capabilities that RHEL 7.5 doesn't support on 
> s390x that RHEL 7.5 Structure A does. Red Hat's release notes explain all 
that.
> But it's possible to mix RHEL and RHEL Structure A instances on the 
> same machine and in a Red Hat supported way. (And, for that matter, 
> other supported RHEL releases.)
>
Specifically, RHEL Structure A is required to run KVM guests on IBM Z.
Guests can be either RHEL and RHEL Structure A. Another thing to keep in 
mind is that the s390utils-* releases are different. For RHEL it's
1.23.0 and for RHEL Structure A it's 2.1.0.
> It looks like the minimum RHEL 7.5/RHEL 7.5 Structure A machine model 
> requirement hasn't changed since RHEL 7.4, so it's z196/z114 
> processors or higher, which includes all LinuxONE machines.
>
> I don't have a strong view on the "right" approach for Linux release 
> streams. It really depends on end users and what they prefer, and they 
> might choose particular Linux distributors based on their different 
> release/service stream approaches. There are some important 
> principles, though. I'd say that maintaining security currency is 
> quite important, as a notable example. But that'll likely mean not 
> waiting too long to exploit new system features since many of those 
> new features are often security-related.
>
> --
> --
> Timothy Sipples
> IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE, 
> Multi-Geography
> E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com
>
> --
> For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or 
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> http://wiki.linuxvm.org/
>


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Regards,
  Viktor Mihajlovski

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vi

Re: 7.5 package levels

[Terri C. Glowaniak]

I found this in the RHEL7.5 release notes..

The 3.10 kernel version does not support KVM virtualization and containers on 
IBM z Systems. Both of these features are supported on the 4.14 kernel on IBM z 
Systems - this offerring is also referred to as Structure A.

I run z/VM as the hypervisor, so I am assuming I would need RHEL7 Structure A 
to do containers?


Thanks,
Terri Glowaniak

 

-Original Message-
From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU] On Behalf Of Viktor VM 
Mihajlovski
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 2:01 AM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: 7.5 package levels

[External Content] Please use caution.

On 24.05.2018 06:59, Timothy Sipples wrote:
> Russ Herrold wrote:
>> It may turn out that we (ClefOS) need to fork and offer two variants
>
> I guess I'd call them "streams" rather than "forks."
>
> For what it's worth, Red Hat seems to offer at least 3 major streams now:
> Fedora (their "community" release), RHEL Structure A, and RHEL. The 
> RHEL Structure A/RHEL pair of streams is a unique offering for the 
> s390x architecture branch, at least for now. (Is it a one-time 
> aberration or the start of something new? I have no idea, so ask Red 
> Hat, I guess.) In RHEL 7.5, Red Hat decided to offer kernel 3.10 
> (only) for all POWER processors prior to POWER9, and (only) kernel 
> 4.14 for POWER9. For X86-64 it's only 3.10, and for ARM64 it's only 4.14.
>
> There are certain newer capabilities that RHEL 7.5 doesn't support on 
> s390x that RHEL 7.5 Structure A does. Red Hat's release notes explain all 
> that.
> But it's possible to mix RHEL and RHEL Structure A instances on the 
> same machine and in a Red Hat supported way. (And, for that matter, 
> other supported RHEL releases.)
>
Specifically, RHEL Structure A is required to run KVM guests on IBM Z.
Guests can be either RHEL and RHEL Structure A. Another thing to keep in mind 
is that the s390utils-* releases are different. For RHEL it's
1.23.0 and for RHEL Structure A it's 2.1.0.
> It looks like the minimum RHEL 7.5/RHEL 7.5 Structure A machine model 
> requirement hasn't changed since RHEL 7.4, so it's z196/z114 
> processors or higher, which includes all LinuxONE machines.
>
> I don't have a strong view on the "right" approach for Linux release 
> streams. It really depends on end users and what they prefer, and they 
> might choose particular Linux distributors based on their different 
> release/service stream approaches. There are some important 
> principles, though. I'd say that maintaining security currency is 
> quite important, as a notable example. But that'll likely mean not 
> waiting too long to exploit new system features since many of those 
> new features are often security-related.
>
> --
> --
> Timothy Sipples
> IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE, 
> Multi-Geography
> E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com
>
> --
> For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or 
> visit
> http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
> --
> For more information on Linux on System z, visit 
> http://wiki.linuxvm.org/
>


--
Regards,
  Viktor Mihajlovski

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Re: 7.5 package levels

[Viktor VM Mihajlovski]

On 24.05.2018 06:59, Timothy Sipples wrote:
> Russ Herrold wrote:
>> It may turn out that we (ClefOS) need to fork and offer two
>> variants
>
> I guess I'd call them "streams" rather than "forks."
>
> For what it's worth, Red Hat seems to offer at least 3 major streams now:
> Fedora (their "community" release), RHEL Structure A, and RHEL. The RHEL
> Structure A/RHEL pair of streams is a unique offering for the s390x
> architecture branch, at least for now. (Is it a one-time aberration or the
> start of something new? I have no idea, so ask Red Hat, I guess.) In RHEL
> 7.5, Red Hat decided to offer kernel 3.10 (only) for all POWER processors
> prior to POWER9, and (only) kernel 4.14 for POWER9. For X86-64 it's only
> 3.10, and for ARM64 it's only 4.14.
>
> There are certain newer capabilities that RHEL 7.5 doesn't support on s390x
> that RHEL 7.5 Structure A does. Red Hat's release notes explain all that.
> But it's possible to mix RHEL and RHEL Structure A instances on the same
> machine and in a Red Hat supported way. (And, for that matter, other
> supported RHEL releases.)
>
Specifically, RHEL Structure A is required to run KVM guests on IBM Z.
Guests can be either RHEL and RHEL Structure A. Another thing to keep in
mind is that the s390utils-* releases are different. For RHEL it's
1.23.0 and for RHEL Structure A it's 2.1.0.
> It looks like the minimum RHEL 7.5/RHEL 7.5 Structure A machine model
> requirement hasn't changed since RHEL 7.4, so it's z196/z114 processors or
> higher, which includes all LinuxONE machines.
>
> I don't have a strong view on the "right" approach for Linux release
> streams. It really depends on end users and what they prefer, and they
> might choose particular Linux distributors based on their different
> release/service stream approaches. There are some important principles,
> though. I'd say that maintaining security currency is quite important, as a
> notable example. But that'll likely mean not waiting too long to exploit
> new system features since many of those new features are often
> security-related.
>
> 
> Timothy Sipples
> IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE,
> Multi-Geography
> E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com
>
> --
> For LINUX-390 subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@vm.marist.edu with the message: INFO LINUX-390 or visit
> http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvindex?LINUX-390
> --
> For more information on Linux on System z, visit
> http://wiki.linuxvm.org/
>


--
Regards,
  Viktor Mihajlovski

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Re: 7.5 package levels

[Timothy Sipples]

Russ Herrold wrote:
>It may turn out that we (ClefOS) need to fork and offer two
>variants

I guess I'd call them "streams" rather than "forks."

For what it's worth, Red Hat seems to offer at least 3 major streams now:
Fedora (their "community" release), RHEL Structure A, and RHEL. The RHEL
Structure A/RHEL pair of streams is a unique offering for the s390x
architecture branch, at least for now. (Is it a one-time aberration or the
start of something new? I have no idea, so ask Red Hat, I guess.) In RHEL
7.5, Red Hat decided to offer kernel 3.10 (only) for all POWER processors
prior to POWER9, and (only) kernel 4.14 for POWER9. For X86-64 it's only
3.10, and for ARM64 it's only 4.14.

There are certain newer capabilities that RHEL 7.5 doesn't support on s390x
that RHEL 7.5 Structure A does. Red Hat's release notes explain all that.
But it's possible to mix RHEL and RHEL Structure A instances on the same
machine and in a Red Hat supported way. (And, for that matter, other
supported RHEL releases.)

It looks like the minimum RHEL 7.5/RHEL 7.5 Structure A machine model
requirement hasn't changed since RHEL 7.4, so it's z196/z114 processors or
higher, which includes all LinuxONE machines.

I don't have a strong view on the "right" approach for Linux release
streams. It really depends on end users and what they prefer, and they
might choose particular Linux distributors based on their different
release/service stream approaches. There are some important principles,
though. I'd say that maintaining security currency is quite important, as a
notable example. But that'll likely mean not waiting too long to exploit
new system features since many of those new features are often
security-related.


Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE,
Multi-Geography
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

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Re: 7.5 package levels

[R P Herrold]

On Wed, 23 May 2018, Timothy Sipples wrote:

> There's a new dual build/delivery approach that Red Hat has
> introduced with RHEL 7.5. RHEL 7.5 offers an alternate build
> stream called "Structure A,"

One reason for Neale's questions in part are that the ClefOS
7.5 build has been being bitten by the two tracks, as we have
tried to spin and test updated ISOs.  The post drop release
notes add color that was not in the Beta release notes

It may turn out that we (ClefOS) need to fork and offer two
variants

-- Russ herrold

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Re: 7.5 package levels

[Timothy Sipples]

There's a new dual build/delivery approach that Red Hat has introduced with
RHEL 7.5. RHEL 7.5 offers an alternate build stream called "Structure A,"
which is a Red Hat supported installation with kernel_alt packages. With
Structure A you get more hardware exploitation, especially on IBM z14 and
LinuxONE Emperor II/Rockhopper II machines, and that might or might not
affect the package version answers. The RHEL 7.5 release notes explain this
all pretty well:

https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/7/html-single/7.5_release_notes/index

RHEL 7.5 either includes kernel 3.10 or, in the Structure A build, kernel
4.14. Red Hat then backports critical fixes to both kernels as it services
RHEL 7.5.

Did you install the Structure A build, Daniel?


Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE,
Multi-Geography
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

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Re: 7.5 package levels

[Neale Ferguson]

Tks

On 5/22/18, 10:59, "Linux on 390 Port on behalf of Daniel P. Martin" 
 wrote:

No info; not installed.  (The image I'm poking with the Stick of Inquiry 
is not yet registered with an entitlement server.)

On 5/22/2018 9:45 AM, Neale Ferguson wrote:
> Thanks Dan. What about openssl-ibmpkcs11?
>
> On 5/22/18, 10:30, "Linux on 390 Port on behalf of Daniel P. Martin" 
 wrote:
>
>  On a recently installed RHEL 7.5 system...
>  
>
>
>
> --
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Re: 7.5 package levels

[Daniel P. Martin]

No info; not installed.  (The image I'm poking with the Stick of Inquiry 
is not yet registered with an entitlement server.)


On 5/22/2018 9:45 AM, Neale Ferguson wrote:

Thanks Dan. What about openssl-ibmpkcs11?

On 5/22/18, 10:30, "Linux on 390 Port on behalf of Daniel P. Martin" 
 wrote:

 On a recently installed RHEL 7.5 system...
 




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Re: 7.5 package levels

[Neale Ferguson]

Thanks Dan. What about openssl-ibmpkcs11?

On 5/22/18, 10:30, "Linux on 390 Port on behalf of Daniel P. Martin" 
 wrote:

On a recently installed RHEL 7.5 system...




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Re: 7.5 package levels

[Daniel P. Martin]

On a recently installed RHEL 7.5 system...


# cat /etc/os-release
NAME="Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server"
VERSION="7.5 (Maipo)"
ID="rhel"
ID_LIKE="fedora"
VARIANT="Server"
VARIANT_ID="server"
VERSION_ID="7.5"
PRETTY_NAME="Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server 7.5 (Maipo)"


... 'yum info' shows me this:


Name    : openssl-ibmca
Arch    : s390x
Version : 1.4.0
Release : 1.el7
Size    : 59 k
Repo    : installed
From repo   : anaconda
Summary : A dynamic OpenSSL engine for IBMCA
URL : https://github.com/opencryptoki
License : ASL 2.0
Description : A dynamic OpenSSL engine for IBMCA crypto hardware on 
IBM zSeries

    : machines.



Name    : libica
Arch    : s390x
Version : 3.2.0
Release : 3.el7
Size    : 242 k
Repo    : installed
From repo   : anaconda
Summary : Library for accessing ICA hardware crypto on IBM zSeries
URL : https://github.com/opencryptoki/
License : CPL
Description : A library of functions and utilities for accessing ICA 
hardware crypto on

    : IBM zSeries.



Name    : s390utils
Arch    : s390x
Epoch   : 2
Version : 1.23.0
Release : 36.el7
Size    : 57 k
Repo    : installed
From repo   : anaconda
Summary : Utilities and daemons for IBM z Systems
URL : 
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/linux390/s390-tools.html

License : GPLv2 and GPLv2+ and CPL
Description : This is a meta package for installing the default 
s390-tools sub packages.
    : If you do not need all default sub packages, it is 
recommended to install the

    : required sub packages separately.
    :
    : The s390utils packages contain a set of user space 
utilities that should to
    : be used together with the zSeries (s390) Linux kernel 
and device drivers.


-dan.

On 5/22/2018 9:22 AM, Neale Ferguson wrote:

Hi,
For those running 7.5 what level of the following packages come with that 
release?

openssl-ibmca
libica
s390utils

Neale

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