Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[guy keren]

this is software. software has bugs.

software packaging only seems simple - but in fact is really not, 
because of the exponential amount of combinations that simply can't be 
exhaustively tested, and because it depends on code written by thousands 
of unrelated developers, that work on their own software, not on the 
"linux disribution".


so occasionally you will have problems that you'll need to fix. how 
often? it's really a matter of luck, factored by the amount of 
configuration changes you do on your system.


--guy


On 12/08/2019 9:45 AM, Jeremy Hoyland wrote:

Just to comment on your original post.
Don't think for one moment that things are any better in Windows.
The difference with APT issues is that there /is/ something you can do 
about it, and ultimately, the problem is resolvable by you.
In Windows things look a lot prettier, but I have often had an installer 
fail with no reason given and then automatically roll-back with no recourse.

The solutions there often required manual editing of the registry.
I prefer APT any day.

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 08:18, Shlomo Solomon > wrote:


Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head", but
relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE despite it
being quite bloated for many years now.

As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends" years
ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80
dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!!

As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about the
problem since I was not really looking for a solution.

The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency and
neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually
deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably fall
on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such scripts,
and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers.

Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think
that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will
probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the monodevelop
IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked for me in the
first place so I probably should have uninstalled it months ago :-).



On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
Steve Litt mailto:sl...@troubleshooters.com>> wrote:

 > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
 > Shlomo Solomon mailto:shlomo.solo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 > > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
 > > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
 >
 > [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]
 >
 > I feel your pain. Probably we all do.
 >
 > And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:
 >
 > 1) The maintainers of your distro
 >
 > 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any
 >
 > 3) The authors of the software concerned
 >
 >
 > DISTRO:
 >
 > Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed apt
 > to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most Debian
 > extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add
 > hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all
 > for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty.
 >
 > Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly
complexifying
 > itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that ball of
 > confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at a remarkable
 > rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: The ultimate
ball of
 > confusion.
 >
 > About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
 > dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
 > both Gnome3 and systemd.
 >
 > I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a
non-systemd
 > init system involves a many-step raindance where you pin this package
 > and hold back that package.
 >
 > Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.
 >
 > Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends into
 > hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret apt
 > meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not packaging
 > it at all. There are usually substitutes and equivalents.
 >
 >
 > DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:
 >
 > Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
 > applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies and
 > promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were obviously
 > a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to control their
 > computers rather than the other way around.
  

Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[Shlomo Solomon]

After more than 20 years using Linux, I have ABSOLUTELY no thoughts
about moving to Windows. My point was that a new user might be daunted
by dependency hell. Whether we like it or not, Windows is the de-facto
OS and if we want to see people moving to Linux, it's got to be better.


 

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:45:26 +0300
Jeremy Hoyland  wrote:

> Just to comment on your original post.
> Don't think for one moment that things are any better in Windows.
> The difference with APT issues is that there *is* something you can do
> about it, and ultimately, the problem is resolvable by you.
> In Windows things look a lot prettier, but I have often had an
> installer fail with no reason given and then automatically roll-back
> with no recourse. The solutions there often required manual editing
> of the registry. I prefer APT any day.
> 
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 08:18, Shlomo Solomon
>  wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head",
> > but relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE
> > despite it being quite bloated for many years now.
> >
> > As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends"
> > years ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80
> > dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!!
> >
> > As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about
> > the problem since I was not really looking for a solution.
> >
> > The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency
> > and neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually
> > deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably
> > fall on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such
> > scripts, and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers.
> >
> > Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think
> > that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will
> > probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the
> > monodevelop IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked
> > for me in the first place so I probably should have uninstalled it
> > months ago :-).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
> > Steve Litt  wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
> > > Shlomo Solomon  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
> > > > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
> > >
> > > [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]
> > >
> > > I feel your pain. Probably we all do.
> > >
> > > And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:
> > >
> > > 1) The maintainers of your distro
> > >
> > > 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any
> > >
> > > 3) The authors of the software concerned
> > >
> > >
> > > DISTRO:
> > >
> > > Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed
> > > apt to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most
> > > Debian extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add
> > > hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all
> > > for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty.
> > >
> > > Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly
> > > complexifying itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that
> > > ball of confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at
> > > a remarkable rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd:
> > > The ultimate ball of confusion.
> > >
> > > About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
> > > dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
> > > both Gnome3 and systemd.
> > >
> > > I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a
> > > non-systemd init system involves a many-step raindance where you
> > > pin this package and hold back that package.
> > >
> > > Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.
> > >
> > > Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends
> > > into hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret
> > > apt meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not
> > > packaging it at all. There are usually substitutes and
> > > equivalents.
> > >
> > >
> > > DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:
> > >
> > > Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
> > > applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies
> > > and promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were
> > > obviously a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to
> > > control their computers rather than the other way around.
> > >
> > > If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to
> > > reduce promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh
> > > at you, of course: Their purpose on this earth is to create
> > > obscenely interdependent black boxes.
> > >
> > > You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
> > > 

Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[Jeremy Hoyland]

Just to comment on your original post.
Don't think for one moment that things are any better in Windows.
The difference with APT issues is that there *is* something you can do
about it, and ultimately, the problem is resolvable by you.
In Windows things look a lot prettier, but I have often had an installer
fail with no reason given and then automatically roll-back with no recourse.
The solutions there often required manual editing of the registry.
I prefer APT any day.

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 08:18, Shlomo Solomon 
wrote:

> Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head", but
> relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE despite it
> being quite bloated for many years now.
>
> As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends" years
> ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80
> dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!!
>
> As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about the
> problem since I was not really looking for a solution.
>
> The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency and
> neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually
> deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably fall
> on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such scripts,
> and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers.
>
> Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think
> that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will
> probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the monodevelop
> IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked for me in the
> first place so I probably should have uninstalled it months ago :-).
>
>
>
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
> Steve Litt  wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
> > Shlomo Solomon  wrote:
> >
> > > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
> > > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
> >
> > [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]
> >
> > I feel your pain. Probably we all do.
> >
> > And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:
> >
> > 1) The maintainers of your distro
> >
> > 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any
> >
> > 3) The authors of the software concerned
> >
> >
> > DISTRO:
> >
> > Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed apt
> > to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most Debian
> > extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add
> > hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all
> > for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty.
> >
> > Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly complexifying
> > itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that ball of
> > confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at a remarkable
> > rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: The ultimate ball of
> > confusion.
> >
> > About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
> > dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
> > both Gnome3 and systemd.
> >
> > I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a non-systemd
> > init system involves a many-step raindance where you pin this package
> > and hold back that package.
> >
> > Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.
> >
> > Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends into
> > hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret apt
> > meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not packaging
> > it at all. There are usually substitutes and equivalents.
> >
> >
> > DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:
> >
> > Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
> > applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies and
> > promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were obviously
> > a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to control their
> > computers rather than the other way around.
> >
> > If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to
> > reduce promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh at
> > you, of course: Their purpose on this earth is to create obscenely
> > interdependent black boxes.
> >
> > You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
> > selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to include
> > desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do this (not very
> > likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it all for you"
> > environments), the "desktop environments" might catch on and put more
> > of a priority on modularity and thin interfaces (or no interfaces
> > where not needed).
> >
> > I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in
> > 2012-2013, and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and
> > slowly but surely I've been kicking its apps and 

Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[Shlomo Solomon]

Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head", but
relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE despite it
being quite bloated for many years now. 

As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends" years
ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80
dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!! 

As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about the
problem since I was not really looking for a solution.

The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency and
neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually
deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably fall
on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such scripts,
and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers. 

Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think
that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will
probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the monodevelop
IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked for me in the
first place so I probably should have uninstalled it months ago :-).  



On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
> Shlomo Solomon  wrote:
> 
> > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
> > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.   
> 
> [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]
> 
> I feel your pain. Probably we all do.
> 
> And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:
> 
> 1) The maintainers of your distro
> 
> 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any
> 
> 3) The authors of the software concerned
> 
> 
> DISTRO:
> 
> Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed apt
> to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most Debian
> extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add
> hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all
> for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty.
> 
> Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly complexifying
> itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that ball of
> confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at a remarkable
> rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: The ultimate ball of
> confusion.
> 
> About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
> dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
> both Gnome3 and systemd.
> 
> I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a non-systemd
> init system involves a many-step raindance where you pin this package
> and hold back that package.
> 
> Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.
> 
> Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends into
> hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret apt
> meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not packaging
> it at all. There are usually substitutes and equivalents.
> 
> 
> DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:
> 
> Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
> applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies and
> promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were obviously
> a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to control their
> computers rather than the other way around.
> 
> If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to
> reduce promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh at
> you, of course: Their purpose on this earth is to create obscenely
> interdependent black boxes.
> 
> You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
> selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to include
> desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do this (not very
> likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it all for you"
> environments), the "desktop environments" might catch on and put more
> of a priority on modularity and thin interfaces (or no interfaces
> where not needed).
> 
> I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in
> 2012-2013, and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and
> slowly but surely I've been kicking its apps and libraries off my
> computer. Now I boss my computer around, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> THE SOFTWARE AUTHORS:
> 
> True story. When using Python writing a piece of free software
> intended to be used by others, I needed one minor but not obvious how
> to code functionality. So I asked how to code it on the Python IRC
> channel. Not one answer, but three or four people told me to use some
> ginormous library, itself having lots of dependencies, that was not
> part of the standard Python distribution.
> 
> I explained that I didn't need all that stuff, I just needed this one
> functionality. I didn't want my users to have to integrate this
> library into their systems. "No problem", 

Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
Shlomo Solomon  wrote:

> Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I solved
> my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam. 

[snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]

I feel your pain. Probably we all do.

And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:

1) The maintainers of your distro

2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any

3) The authors of the software concerned


DISTRO:

Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed apt to
fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most Debian
extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add hypercomplexity
in order to make them more magically "we do it all for you" and "user
friendly", or just to make things look pretty.

Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly complexifying
itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that ball of
confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at a remarkable
rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: The ultimate ball of
confusion.

About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
both Gnome3 and systemd.

I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a non-systemd
init system involves a many-step raindance where you pin this package
and hold back that package.

Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.

Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends into
hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret apt meetings
with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not packaging it at all.
There are usually substitutes and equivalents.


DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:

Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies and
promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were obviously a
bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to control their
computers rather than the other way around.

If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to reduce
promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh at you, of
course: Their purpose on this earth is to create obscenely
interdependent black boxes.

You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to include
desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do this (not very
likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it all for you"
environments), the "desktop environments" might catch on and put more
of a priority on modularity and thin interfaces (or no interfaces where
not needed).

I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in 2012-2013,
and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and slowly but
surely I've been kicking its apps and libraries off my computer. Now I
boss my computer around, not the other way around.


THE SOFTWARE AUTHORS:

True story. When using Python writing a piece of free software intended
to be used by others, I needed one minor but not obvious how to code
functionality. So I asked how to code it on the Python IRC channel. Not
one answer, but three or four people told me to use some ginormous
library, itself having lots of dependencies, that was not part of the
standard Python distribution.

I explained that I didn't need all that stuff, I just needed this one
functionality. I didn't want my users to have to integrate this library
into their systems. "No problem", one of the IRC denizens proclaimed,
"that's what the Python  is for: You can build your own Python
interpreter for your one application, and ship the interpreter along
with the app". Look at your computer's clock: This is not an April Fools
joke, this happened.

If course I said "no", and then the real abuse happened, with the usual
"don't reinvent the wheel" and "scared to learn new things" and a new
creative diss: "Real programmers try new packages just to get familiar
with them, it's a real opportunity!"

Unfortunately, these guys weren't unusual. Way too many programmers, in
the name of avoiding reinventing the wheel, integrate somebody else's
wheel, when all they needed was an easily available single spoke. You
know who suffers? The distro maintainers and the users.

All too many developers put absolutely zero priority on simplicity. The
slightest improvement in "pretty", or the slightest "improvement" to
keep the user from having to use a text editor, is perfect
justification to bring in a gargantuan software library with poorly
documented API, lots of child dependencies, grandchild dependencies,
and who knows how far down the tree it goes. And at any given time,
at least one dependency of that software dependency tree gets buggy or
goes unmaintained or sets a dependency on something so modern it won't
work with your distro, and you get to use a 10 step apt/dpkg

Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[Shachar Shemesh]

  
  

On 11/08/2019 9:05, Shlomo Solomon
  wrote:


  Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I solved my
problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam. 

I'll do my best to defend.

  binations of commands such as:

sudo apt-get --fix-broken install
sudo apt autoremove
sudo dpkg -P mono-complete
sudo dpkg --remove --force-remove-reinstreq mono-complete
sudo apt-get clean
sudo apt-get autoclean
sudo apt-get -u dist-upgrade
sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" upgrade
sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" -f install
sudo dpkg -P --force-all mono-complete
sudo dpkg --configure -a

Or just use aptitude.


It allows you to schedule as many dpkg operations as you need to
  get things working, including multiple suggestions how to
  automatically fix your problem, allowing you to choose between
  them.


  

I discovered that there were some post removal scripts that were
crashing dpkg and the solution was to manually remove several files
from /var/lib/dpkg/info.

WOW - isn't that a "pretty" way to go.

It is not.


In Linux's (Debian's, in this case) defense, a bug in the
  installation script is never easy to recover from. On Windows,
  you'd be in much worse a state under similar circumstances.


Shachar

  


___
Linux-il mailing list
Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il

Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On 11/08/2019 4:42, Ari Becker wrote:
> No, it doesn't have to be that hard. Plugging NixOS:
> https://nixos.org/nixos/about.html which solves this issue by making
> safe rollbacks as easy as rebooting and choosing the previous immutable
> system configuration.

Nixos and the similar Guix indeed disallow any scripts at package install.

>From some anecdotial evidence, at least in some cases this translatest
to more manual changes required by the users in their configuration.

-- Tzafrir

___
Linux-il mailing list
Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il

Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[Shlomo Solomon]

Thanks.
I'm not familair with nixos and I certainly don't want to start a
discussion of which distro is better, but I will comment:

1 - IF this works as stated on the nixos site, I hope it will spread to
other distros

2 - changing distros because of a problem like I had is really overkill

3 - I don't really thing this would work in the situation I had
(although as I said - I'm not familiar with nixos). It's true that I
did not give details earlier, but I can add that it "seems" that
something went wrong when I installed a package about 2 months ago, but
everything worked OK until an update to that package (today) failed and
left the system unstable. So I don't think going back to a breakpoint
from months ago (if it were even possible) would b a viable solution
since it that time I'm made MANY changes to the system - including
installing other packages. Fixing a specific broken package or
dependency should be a trivial thing. 



On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:42:23 +0300
Ari Becker  wrote:

> No, it doesn't have to be that hard. Plugging NixOS:
> https://nixos.org/nixos/about.html which solves this issue by making
> safe rollbacks as easy as rebooting and choosing the previous
> immutable system configuration.
> 
> On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 9:06 AM Shlomo Solomon
>  wrote:
> 
> > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
> > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
> >
> > I've been using Linux for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure a novice
> > would have just quit and either deleted the whole mess or gone back
> > to Windows.
> >
> > Fixing broken dependencies should not be that hard!!
> >
> > I won't bore you with what happened to me, but after trying GUI
> > tools and also numerous combinations of commands such as:
> >
> > sudo apt-get --fix-broken install
> > sudo apt autoremove
> > sudo dpkg -P mono-complete
> > sudo dpkg --remove --force-remove-reinstreq mono-complete
> > sudo apt-get clean
> > sudo apt-get autoclean
> > sudo apt-get -u dist-upgrade
> > sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" upgrade
> > sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" -f install
> > sudo dpkg -P --force-all mono-complete
> > sudo dpkg --configure -a
> >
> >
> > I discovered that there were some post removal scripts that were
> > crashing dpkg and the solution was to manually remove several files
> > from /var/lib/dpkg/info.
> >
> > WOW - isn't that a "pretty" way to go.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shlomo Solomon
> > http://the-solomons.net
> > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
> >
> > ___
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >



-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04

___
Linux-il mailing list
Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il

Re: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard

[Ari Becker]

No, it doesn't have to be that hard. Plugging NixOS:
https://nixos.org/nixos/about.html which solves this issue by making safe
rollbacks as easy as rebooting and choosing the previous immutable system
configuration.

On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 9:06 AM Shlomo Solomon 
wrote:

> Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I solved my
> problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
>
> I've been using Linux for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure a novice would
> have just quit and either deleted the whole mess or gone back to
> Windows.
>
> Fixing broken dependencies should not be that hard!!
>
> I won't bore you with what happened to me, but after trying GUI
> tools and also numerous combinations of commands such as:
>
> sudo apt-get --fix-broken install
> sudo apt autoremove
> sudo dpkg -P mono-complete
> sudo dpkg --remove --force-remove-reinstreq mono-complete
> sudo apt-get clean
> sudo apt-get autoclean
> sudo apt-get -u dist-upgrade
> sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" upgrade
> sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" -f install
> sudo dpkg -P --force-all mono-complete
> sudo dpkg --configure -a
>
>
> I discovered that there were some post removal scripts that were
> crashing dpkg and the solution was to manually remove several files
> from /var/lib/dpkg/info.
>
> WOW - isn't that a "pretty" way to go.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Shlomo Solomon
> http://the-solomons.net
> Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
>
> ___
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
___
Linux-il mailing list
Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il
http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il