Re: Summary: Which Linux distribution is stable yet up-to-date

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2015 12:47:53 +0200
Shlomi Fish  wrote:


> I would recommend against Arch Linux because, like I said, its
> installations can be left in an unusable state if one forgets to
> update it frequently enough. I'm not sure about Void Linux as I never
> used it.

I had that happen to me once on Void. A quick posting to Void's IRC
channel got me the magic incantation I needed to overcome a buried
shovel problem.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

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Re: Summary: Which Linux distribution is stable yet up-to-date

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2015 13:32:20 +0200
Shlomi Fish  wrote:


> Sorry for being unclear, but by "unusable state" I meant that one can
> no longer upgrade the system it using "pacman -Syu" (or whatever the
> command is) because it gives errors. The system itself works fine but
> will run outdated software applications (and often ones with known
> security vulnerabilities). 

I've had this happen several times with Manjaro (and therefore I assume
it would happen with Arch also). All the cases of which I'm aware are
solveable like this:

pacman -Syu --ignore badpkgname

The preceding allows the rest of your upgrade to go through. Report the
problem, and in the near future the bad program will be fixed and you
can upgrade the formerly bad package.

It's really unfortunate that, without --ignore, pacman sees fit to go
through the entire the entire upgrade, perhaps a half hour, and then
tell you there's one bad package and upgrade nothing. Fortunately, in
the time I spent with Manjaro, I saw only two or three cases in which a
package refused to install and took the whole pacman -Syu with it.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

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Re: Summary: Which Linux distribution is stable yet up-to-date

[Yuval Adam]

> 
> I would recommend against Arch Linux because, like I said, its
> installations can be left in an unusable state if one forgets to update
> it frequently enough. I'm not sure about Void Linux as I never used it.
> 

That's factually incorrect. If you current state is stable, it will
remain stable for eternity as long as no updates are made and you do not
attempy any foolish things like system-wide installations without using
your package manager (why would a stable system become unstable otherwise?)

Of course if you never upgrade you miss out on being on the bleeding
edge of upstream packages, don't receive security updates etc. On an
typical Arch setup it's common to run daily or weekly updates with no
other side affects.

Over the past 3 years I only recall a single severe breakage of my
system due to upgrading that required booting from a rescue USB and
fixing a stupid mistake I made in my bootloader configuration.

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Re: Summary: Which Linux distribution is stable yet up-to-date

[Shlomi Fish]

Hello Yuval,


On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Yuval Adam  wrote:

>
> >
> > I would recommend against Arch Linux because, like I said, its
> > installations can be left in an unusable state if one forgets to update
> > it frequently enough. I'm not sure about Void Linux as I never used it.
> >
>
> That's factually incorrect. If you current state is stable, it will
> remain stable for eternity as long as no updates are made and you do not
> attempy any foolish things like system-wide installations without using
> your package manager (why would a stable system become unstable otherwise?)
>
>
Sorry for being unclear, but by "unusable state" I meant that one can no
longer upgrade the system it using "pacman -Syu" (or whatever the command
is) because it gives errors. The system itself works fine but will run
outdated software applications (and often ones with known security
vulnerabilities). I had to decommission several Arch VMs due to this
problem, and it's a well-known problem for other people that can be found
using web searches.

Regards,

-- Shlomi Fish

-- 
--
Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/

Chuck Norris helps the gods that help themselves.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
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Re: Summary: Which Linux distribution is stable yet up-to-date

[Rabin Yasharzadehe]

I never said Fedora is unstable!
Arch can be unstable because it try to be on the bleeding edge,

Fedora is "bleeding edge" as far as a stable release can be.
and it has a short release/support cycle.

--
Rabin

On 1 December 2015 at 20:10, Omer Zak  wrote:

> Yesterday I posted my question about selecting a Linux distribution to
> serve as the host Linux distribution for a system which runs Docker and
> a virtualization system.
>
> For such a system, I'll want to use a stable but up-to-date kernel.
>
> Unstable distributions will be operated inside a virtual machine or a
> Docker container, as needed.
>
> Several people responded with suggestions.
>
> Rabin Yasharzadehe suggested Arch and Fedora - both as unstable
> distributions.
> Shlomi Fish suggested Mageia, which gets a release roughly every 9
> months. Its unstable counterpart is Cauldron. He had a problem using
> VirtualBox (the virtualization solution which I am currently using) on
> Mageia.
> Yuval Adam claims that Arch Linux manages to be extremely stable without
> losing the ability to get frequent updates.
> Jeremy Hoyland suggested the use of Linux Mint. But he said nothing
> about its stability.
> Steve Litt proposes the use of a rolling release. He recommends Void as
> more stable than the alternatives. Unlike me, systemd use or avoidance
> is for him a religious issue.
> Sara Fink suggests Gentoo, which has what to offer to both sides of the
> systemd divide. Not clear how stable is it.
> Tzafrir Cohen pointed out that Debian Stable strives to maintain a
> stable interface to Kernel modules.
>
> The winners so far are Arch and Void.
>
> Yet another option is to use Debian Stable as the host operating system,
> like I did so far, but compile and install my own kernel builds
> according to the instructions in places such as:
>
> http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/debian-ubuntu-building-installing-a-custom-linux-kernel/
>
> User space programs, which rely upon bleeding-edge features of the
> kernel, will be run from containers as needed, thus hopefully
> restricting somewhat any damage they could cause.
>
> Thanks to all responders.
> --- Omer
>
>
> --
> We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children
> more than they hate us.
>Golda Meir (Israeli Prime Minister between 1969-1974)
> My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/
>
> My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
> They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
> I may be affiliated in any way.
> WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>
>
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Summary: Which Linux distribution is stable yet up-to-date

[Omer Zak]

Yesterday I posted my question about selecting a Linux distribution to
serve as the host Linux distribution for a system which runs Docker and
a virtualization system.

For such a system, I'll want to use a stable but up-to-date kernel.

Unstable distributions will be operated inside a virtual machine or a
Docker container, as needed.

Several people responded with suggestions.

Rabin Yasharzadehe suggested Arch and Fedora - both as unstable
distributions.
Shlomi Fish suggested Mageia, which gets a release roughly every 9
months. Its unstable counterpart is Cauldron. He had a problem using
VirtualBox (the virtualization solution which I am currently using) on
Mageia.
Yuval Adam claims that Arch Linux manages to be extremely stable without
losing the ability to get frequent updates.
Jeremy Hoyland suggested the use of Linux Mint. But he said nothing
about its stability.
Steve Litt proposes the use of a rolling release. He recommends Void as
more stable than the alternatives. Unlike me, systemd use or avoidance
is for him a religious issue.
Sara Fink suggests Gentoo, which has what to offer to both sides of the
systemd divide. Not clear how stable is it.
Tzafrir Cohen pointed out that Debian Stable strives to maintain a
stable interface to Kernel modules.

The winners so far are Arch and Void.

Yet another option is to use Debian Stable as the host operating system,
like I did so far, but compile and install my own kernel builds
according to the instructions in places such as:
http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/debian-ubuntu-building-installing-a-custom-linux-kernel/

User space programs, which rely upon bleeding-edge features of the
kernel, will be run from containers as needed, thus hopefully
restricting somewhat any damage they could cause.

Thanks to all responders.
--- Omer


-- 
We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children
more than they hate us.
   Golda Meir (Israeli Prime Minister between 1969-1974)
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html


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Debian Testing (was: Re: Summary: Which Linux distribution is stable yet up-to-date)

[Omer Zak]

Actually, Debian Testing is a bad alternative when wishing to trade off
stability vs. being up-to-date.

On one hand, while Debian Testing is mostly stable, things break all the
time (and get fixed within few days). Not good when you depend upon a
working system for your work. The worst breakages occur during the first
weeks after Debian Testing goes out of freeze, following a Debian Stable
release.

On the other hand, Debian Testing gets frozen (except for bug fixes) for
several months each two years or so, while a new Debian Stable release
is being made.

The best use case for Debian Testing is for someone who develops (or
adapts) software for running in a Debian installation, and needs to test
it in a live system.

On my current main PC I use Debian Stable (Debian Jessie at the moment),
and until recently I used Debian Testing on a netbook which I use for
lecture notetaking. I learned early in the game not to update packages
on the netbook for few days before lectures and other events, for which
I need notetaking.

--- Omer


On Wed, 2015-12-02 at 15:17 +1100, Amos Shapira wrote:
> I tried to avoid this discussion but I'm a little surprised that
> nobody mentioned Debian Testing.
> I've used it as a desktop for a decade or so and it had a great
> combination of very good stability (i.e. I can't recall it ever
> disappointed me) and still relatively up to date.
> But then again - it's been a while since I used it.
> 
> These days I use Ubuntu LTS for servers and Mac for laptop, and for a
> few months around a year ago also Ubuntu LTS for a work laptop.
> 
> On 2 December 2015 at 06:35, Geoff Shang 
> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Dec 2015, Omer Zak wrote:
> 
> Yet another option is to use Debian Stable as the host
> operating system,
> like I did so far, but compile and install my own
> kernel builds
> according to the instructions in places such as:
> 
> http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/debian-ubuntu-building-installing-a-custom-linux-kernel/
> 
> You can also use Debian Backports to get more recent kernel
> releases.
> 
> deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian jessie-backports main
> contrib non-free
> 
> Here's the most recent kernel in jessie-backports at time of
> writing:
> 
> Package: linux-image-4.2.0-0.bpo.1-amd64
> Source: linux
> Version: 4.2.6-1~bpo8+1


-- 
You haven't made an impact on the world before you caused a Debian
release to be named after Snufkin.
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
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Re: Summary: Which Linux distribution is stable yet up-to-date

[Amos Shapira]

I tried to avoid this discussion but I'm a little surprised that nobody
mentioned Debian Testing.
I've used it as a desktop for a decade or so and it had a great combination
of very good stability (i.e. I can't recall it ever disappointed me) and
still relatively up to date.
But then again - it's been a while since I used it.
These days I use Ubuntu LTS for servers and Mac for laptop, and for a few
months around a year ago also Ubuntu LTS for a work laptop.

On 2 December 2015 at 06:35, Geoff Shang  wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Dec 2015, Omer Zak wrote:
>
> Yet another option is to use Debian Stable as the host operating system,
>> like I did so far, but compile and install my own kernel builds
>> according to the instructions in places such as:
>>
>> http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/debian-ubuntu-building-installing-a-custom-linux-kernel/
>>
>
> You can also use Debian Backports to get more recent kernel releases.
>
> deb http://httpredir.debian.org/debian jessie-backports main contrib
> non-free
>
> Here's the most recent kernel in jessie-backports at time of writing:
>
> Package: linux-image-4.2.0-0.bpo.1-amd64
> Source: linux
> Version: 4.2.6-1~bpo8+1
>
> HTH,
> Geoff.
>
>
>
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