Re: Working on a FOSS project (was: Finding a linux related job)
Geoff OK - so you have a negative attitude to programming excellence and managers, maybe you just need a vacation. Let me rebut your points one by one on your own ground: 1) The suits have taken over. It's a well documented fact... - So what. The better the company - the higher the standards for programming excellence AND teamwork. Great companies not only have great programmers - they also have great managers. It will hurt you to hear this but Microsoft has a lot of really talented people that write a lot of great software - if you are not sure about this I suggest you read Jim McCarthy's book Dynamics of software development. Having a few really talented developers is not enough to build a $50M/year software company or even a $5M/year software business. 2) I don't know where you get your statistics or your gross generalization that HR decide who gets hired. I worked at Tadiran, Intel and Rad-Bynet and with over 25 small-large firms in the past 5 years on software security open source consulting gigs and I have run into all kinds of people. The HR people do initial screening but don't decide on hiring a programmer - the hiring manager can be a jerk hiring dunces - but in every single well-run company I am familiar with (Intel, Rad, Tadiran...) there were at least 3 interviews and personal initiative such as FOSS projects always counted for a lot. Programming excellence is valued in the good companies but not at the expense of teamwork. Please don't generalize from your negative experiences. The fact that there is a thriving expert consultant market for Linux and Microsoft developers seems to indicate that there are more than a few managers out there who know what they don't know. Danny On 3/9/07, Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 08:48:56AM -0500, Aviram Jenik wrote: I call double bullsh*t. You called it all right Talented developers look to hire developers that have a passion. This is what separates a dot-net-john-bryce-graduate programmer from a real programmer. It's not the degree, it's the passion. You would be surprised how few talented developers there really are in the world and especialy here. The problem with finding them is there is a small window when they are hiring. In a start-up the team is put together by word of mouth, long before the company is actually formed. In a medium size company, the suits have taken over and they are not concerned with the passion to do good work, change the world, etc. They are concerned with how many hours you will put in to make them look good. It's not just me as you think, it's a well documented fact. The fact you worked in your spare time on a project (regardless of whether they know what FOSS means) gives you credit in places where developer passion is appreciated - and this is probably where you want to work. Yes, and it would be the kind of people I would hire, if I were hiring, but most managers are not intrested in it. They don't see it as relevant, and they want real work experince. Working on a FOSS project is not real experiemce either. There is often no managment, no goals, no timetables, no money for professional level equipment and tools and so on. Also from a practical level, going out of university means you have zero experience (no, university projects rarely count as experience), so working on a project with other developers, a team leader, a schedule, users - all that is important not only for your own personal development but also to show a potential employer what you can do. Not to mention they can download the source code and see first hand how good you really are. True, but the personel person who is vetting your resume will not download anything and in almost every FOSS project I've seen you can't tell one programmers code from another. After a few months in the wild, people often modify it, and it becomes the product of many hands. Some FOSS projects are even prestigious - the google SOC is well regarded, and working on a high-profile project might impress your potential employer. It might, I don't think it will in most cases. Geoffrey, you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder - go to a therapist and work it out. Maybe your world consists of nothing but abusive managers and cheating partners who only want to screw you, but fortunately for the rest of us the world is different. Thanks for the advice, but I was writing public domain (the predecessor to FOSS) and commerical operating system code before you were born. You may been lucky in your choices of employers and projects, IMHO you are just naive. You'll learn. As for a chip on anyone's shoulder and needing therapy, I suggest that since you feel the need to denigrate me and my experirence publicly, you are the one who needs it. In 1978 an IBM Systems Enginer brought in a sign to where I worked, which being young and ambitious at the time laughed at: Old age and treachery
Working on a FOSS project (was: Finding a linux related job)
On Friday 09 March 2007 01:43, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: Personaly I would not waste any time on a FOSS project. Most managers won't care, it has no relevance to their world, and many startup managers will take it that you are more interested in the work than the money and if they do hire you, will take advantage of you (to be polite). I call double bullsh*t. Talented developers look to hire developers that have a passion. This is what separates a dot-net-john-bryce-graduate programmer from a real programmer. It's not the degree, it's the passion. The fact you worked in your spare time on a project (regardless of whether they know what FOSS means) gives you credit in places where developer passion is appreciated - and this is probably where you want to work. Also from a practical level, going out of university means you have zero experience (no, university projects rarely count as experience), so working on a project with other developers, a team leader, a schedule, users - all that is important not only for your own personal development but also to show a potential employer what you can do. Not to mention they can download the source code and see first hand how good you really are. Some FOSS projects are even prestigious - the google SOC is well regarded, and working on a high-profile project might impress your potential employer. Geoffrey, you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder - go to a therapist and work it out. Maybe your world consists of nothing but abusive managers and cheating partners who only want to screw you, but fortunately for the rest of us the world is different. Geoff. - Aviram = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Working on a FOSS project (was: Finding a linux related job)
On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 08:48:56AM -0500, Aviram Jenik wrote: I call double bullsh*t. You called it all right Talented developers look to hire developers that have a passion. This is what separates a dot-net-john-bryce-graduate programmer from a real programmer. It's not the degree, it's the passion. You would be surprised how few talented developers there really are in the world and especialy here. The problem with finding them is there is a small window when they are hiring. In a start-up the team is put together by word of mouth, long before the company is actually formed. In a medium size company, the suits have taken over and they are not concerned with the passion to do good work, change the world, etc. They are concerned with how many hours you will put in to make them look good. It's not just me as you think, it's a well documented fact. The fact you worked in your spare time on a project (regardless of whether they know what FOSS means) gives you credit in places where developer passion is appreciated - and this is probably where you want to work. Yes, and it would be the kind of people I would hire, if I were hiring, but most managers are not intrested in it. They don't see it as relevant, and they want real work experince. Working on a FOSS project is not real experiemce either. There is often no managment, no goals, no timetables, no money for professional level equipment and tools and so on. Also from a practical level, going out of university means you have zero experience (no, university projects rarely count as experience), so working on a project with other developers, a team leader, a schedule, users - all that is important not only for your own personal development but also to show a potential employer what you can do. Not to mention they can download the source code and see first hand how good you really are. True, but the personel person who is vetting your resume will not download anything and in almost every FOSS project I've seen you can't tell one programmers code from another. After a few months in the wild, people often modify it, and it becomes the product of many hands. Some FOSS projects are even prestigious - the google SOC is well regarded, and working on a high-profile project might impress your potential employer. It might, I don't think it will in most cases. Geoffrey, you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder - go to a therapist and work it out. Maybe your world consists of nothing but abusive managers and cheating partners who only want to screw you, but fortunately for the rest of us the world is different. Thanks for the advice, but I was writing public domain (the predecessor to FOSS) and commerical operating system code before you were born. You may been lucky in your choices of employers and projects, IMHO you are just naive. You'll learn. As for a chip on anyone's shoulder and needing therapy, I suggest that since you feel the need to denigrate me and my experirence publicly, you are the one who needs it. In 1978 an IBM Systems Enginer brought in a sign to where I worked, which being young and ambitious at the time laughed at: Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill any time. BTW, if you followed the discussion the person asking the question has almost all of his work experience in non FOSS software. Enough that he could probably get a job today if he promoted it. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Working on a FOSS project (was: Finding a linux related job)
On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 08:48:56AM -0500, Aviram Jenik wrote: I call double bullsh*t. You called it all right Talented developers look to hire developers that have a passion. This is what separates a dot-net-john-bryce-graduate programmer from a real programmer. It's not the degree, it's the passion. You would be surprised how few talented developers there really are in the world and especialy here. The problem with finding them is there is a small window when they are hiring. In a start-up the team is put together by word of mouth, long before the company is actually formed. In a medium size company, the suits have taken over and they are not concerned with the passion to do good work, change the world, etc. They are concerned with how many hours you will put in to make them look good. It's not just me as you think, it's a well documented fact. Another agreement with you both, although I'm in the USA, and I don't know how different that is. Except for my very first two jobs, every interview I've had showed remarkable interest in my non-work related projects, and in fact hired me on the basis of skills I had acquired on those other projects. In fact, since college, allmost all of my new skills have been acquired on non-work related projects. My suggestion is to put your FOSS projects on your resume just as prominenly as your real jobs. Talk about the skills you learned and what your responsibilities were, just like with a regular job. And if it comes up in an interview, don't think of FOSS projects as less important than real jobs. Another thing: Presumably you are involved in FOSS because you feel passionate about it. Let that passion show. People with enthusiasm, motivation, and interest are harder to find than people with just the technical skills. Good luck! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
