Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Andreas Dilger
Malcolm Beattie writes: > Andreas Dilger writes: > > PS - I used to think shrinking a filesystem online was useful, but there > > are a huge amount of problems with this and very few real-life > > benefits, as long as you can at least do offline shrinking. With > > proper LVM

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Oliver Xymoron
On Thu, 24 May 2001, Marko Kreen wrote: > On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 02:23:27AM +0200, Edgar Toernig wrote: > > Daniel Phillips wrote: > > > > > It's going to be marked 'd', it's a directory, not a file. > > > > > > > > Aha. So you lose the S_ISCHR/BLK attribute. > > > > > > Readdir fills in a

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Andreas Dilger
Linus writes: > There are some strong arguments that we should have filesystem > "backdoors" for maintenance purposes, including backup. > > You can, of course, so parts of this on a LVM level, and doing backups > with "disk snapshots" may be a valid approach. However, even that is > debatable:

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Andreas Dilger
Jeff writes: > Here's a dumb question, and I apologize if I am questioning computer > science dogma... > > Why are LVM and EVMS(competing LVM project) needed at all? > > Surely the same can be accomplished with > * md > * snapshot blkdev (attached in previous e-mail) > * giving partitions and

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Andreas Dilger
Peter Braam writes: > On Tue, 22 May 2001, Andreas Dilger wrote: > > Actually, the LVM snapshot > > interface has (optional) hooks into the filesystem to ensure that it > > is consistent at the time the snapshot is created. > > File system journal recovery can corrupt a snapshot, because it

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Andreas Dilger
Peter Braam writes: On Tue, 22 May 2001, Andreas Dilger wrote: Actually, the LVM snapshot interface has (optional) hooks into the filesystem to ensure that it is consistent at the time the snapshot is created. File system journal recovery can corrupt a snapshot, because it copies data

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Andreas Dilger
Jeff writes: Here's a dumb question, and I apologize if I am questioning computer science dogma... Why are LVM and EVMS(competing LVM project) needed at all? Surely the same can be accomplished with * md * snapshot blkdev (attached in previous e-mail) * giving partitions and blkdevs

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Andreas Dilger
Linus writes: There are some strong arguments that we should have filesystem backdoors for maintenance purposes, including backup. You can, of course, so parts of this on a LVM level, and doing backups with disk snapshots may be a valid approach. However, even that is debatable: there is

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Oliver Xymoron
On Thu, 24 May 2001, Marko Kreen wrote: On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 02:23:27AM +0200, Edgar Toernig wrote: Daniel Phillips wrote: It's going to be marked 'd', it's a directory, not a file. Aha. So you lose the S_ISCHR/BLK attribute. Readdir fills in a directory type, so ls

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-24 Thread Andreas Dilger
Malcolm Beattie writes: Andreas Dilger writes: PS - I used to think shrinking a filesystem online was useful, but there are a huge amount of problems with this and very few real-life benefits, as long as you can at least do offline shrinking. With proper LVM usage, the

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-23 Thread Oliver Xymoron
On Wed, 23 May 2001, Daniel Phillips wrote: > > > > *boggle* > > > > > > > >[general sense of unease] > > > > I fully agree with Oliver. It's an abomination. > > We are, or at least, I am, investigating this question purely on > technical grounds - name calling is a noop. I'd be happy to find

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-23 Thread Oliver Xymoron
On Wed, 23 May 2001, Daniel Phillips wrote: *boggle* [general sense of unease] I fully agree with Oliver. It's an abomination. We are, or at least, I am, investigating this question purely on technical grounds - name calling is a noop. I'd be happy to find a real reason why

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-22 Thread Oliver Xymoron
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Daniel Phillips wrote: > > I don't think it's likely to be even workable. Just consider the > > directory entry for a moment - is it going to be marked d or [cb]? > > It's going to be marked 'd', it's a directory, not a file. Are we talking about the same proposal? The one

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-22 Thread Oliver Xymoron
On Mon, 21 May 2001, Daniel Phillips wrote: > On Monday 21 May 2001 19:16, Oliver Xymoron wrote: > > What I'd like to see: > > > > - An interface for registering an array of related devices (almost > > always two: raw and ctl) and their legacy device numbers with a > > single userspace callout

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-22 Thread Oliver Xymoron
On Mon, 21 May 2001, Daniel Phillips wrote: On Monday 21 May 2001 19:16, Oliver Xymoron wrote: What I'd like to see: - An interface for registering an array of related devices (almost always two: raw and ctl) and their legacy device numbers with a single userspace callout that does

Re: Why side-effects on open(2) are evil. (was Re: [RFD w/info-PATCH]devicearguments from lookup)

2001-05-22 Thread Oliver Xymoron
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Daniel Phillips wrote: I don't think it's likely to be even workable. Just consider the directory entry for a moment - is it going to be marked d or [cb]? It's going to be marked 'd', it's a directory, not a file. Are we talking about the same proposal? The one where