Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-18 Thread John Cavan

"Henning P. Schmiedehausen" wrote:
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael H. Warfield) writes:
> 
> > Excuse me?  A 1 billion dolar investment in Linux is not
> >supporting it?
> 
> On their own hardware.

Which is really the point and they won't be the only ones. If IBM wants
to attract and keep customers on their hardware, they will ensure that
the software and Linux drivers for it run very well, if Linux is going
to be their main play to sell hardware. The same will hold true for
other hardware manufacturers, including those the make video cards,
modems, etc, as Linux grows in the marketplace.

Linux will not displace the software industry, it will eventually
displace the commodity portions of it. This is what has Microsoft
afraid, since commodity software is their real play, games and specialty
software isn't. The fact is, the majority of software is written
in-house and through contracted professional services work, not off the
shelf. Linux will make that side of the industry even more valuable, it
will empower the developers and the businesses that hire them to do even
more than they can today. It will empower them to do it right.

As for games and similar specialties, they aren't going anywhere. It
costs far too much money to produce a high-end game and the open source
world either can't afford it or can't produce it fast enough to support
the market.

So Allchin's flag waving is simple posturing. Microsoft may become
irrelevant, but the software industry won't.

John
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-18 Thread Henning P. Schmiedehausen

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael H. Warfield) writes:

> Excuse me?  A 1 billion dolar investment in Linux is not
>supporting it?

On their own hardware.

> Setting up tier 1 and tier 2 support services for a half a dozen
>distributions is not supporting it?  

For their own hardware.

> Porting their AIX file systems and applications is not supporting
> it?

Keeping their legacy customer base on their products. Showing a
migration path that stays on their products and does not move to M$ or
another vendor.

> Porting it to the 390 is not supporting it?

Their own hardware.

>  You bet'cha they are taking advantage of the fact that people want
> it.  They would be damn fools in business if they didn't take
> advantage of that.

They want to stay in business. They don't want to lose their
customers. I remember an interview with an IBM exec which went along
the lines "We're supporting 25 different OS. Linux is OS #26. So, no
news for us here".

> And that means supporting it.  It's to their advantage to support it
> and they see it.  You must have a really bizzare idea of what
> support means...

It means "keep my customer base happy with me, so they give me more
bucks".

I'm sure, that their business plan with Linux says "we get two bucks
for every every one that we spend". IBM is an iron vendor. They have a
strong software product line but their first target is selling "IBM
software on an IBM supported OS on IBM hardware". And if the "IBM
supported OS" is not M$ Windows, which they have to pay a license fee
for but a "license-free OS" which is even developed for them, it's
good for them. And they get "community recognition" and a good press
thrown in for free.

It's "win - win" for them. And, BTW, for us and Linux too, which is a
good thing.

Regards
Henning

P.S.: Oh, look a me. Living in an environment where IBM are the good
guys. The horrors. The horrors. ;-)

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-18 Thread Henning P. Schmiedehausen

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael H. Warfield) writes:

 Excuse me?  A 1 billion dolar investment in Linux is not
supporting it?

On their own hardware.

 Setting up tier 1 and tier 2 support services for a half a dozen
distributions is not supporting it?  

For their own hardware.

 Porting their AIX file systems and applications is not supporting
 it?

Keeping their legacy customer base on their products. Showing a
migration path that stays on their products and does not move to M$ or
another vendor.

 Porting it to the 390 is not supporting it?

Their own hardware.

  You bet'cha they are taking advantage of the fact that people want
 it.  They would be damn fools in business if they didn't take
 advantage of that.

They want to stay in business. They don't want to lose their
customers. I remember an interview with an IBM exec which went along
the lines "We're supporting 25 different OS. Linux is OS #26. So, no
news for us here".

 And that means supporting it.  It's to their advantage to support it
 and they see it.  You must have a really bizzare idea of what
 support means...

It means "keep my customer base happy with me, so they give me more
bucks".

I'm sure, that their business plan with Linux says "we get two bucks
for every every one that we spend". IBM is an iron vendor. They have a
strong software product line but their first target is selling "IBM
software on an IBM supported OS on IBM hardware". And if the "IBM
supported OS" is not M$ Windows, which they have to pay a license fee
for but a "license-free OS" which is even developed for them, it's
good for them. And they get "community recognition" and a good press
thrown in for free.

It's "win - win" for them. And, BTW, for us and Linux too, which is a
good thing.

Regards
Henning

P.S.: Oh, look a me. Living in an environment where IBM are the good
guys. The horrors. The horrors. ;-)

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen   -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-18 Thread John Cavan

"Henning P. Schmiedehausen" wrote:
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael H. Warfield) writes:
 
  Excuse me?  A 1 billion dolar investment in Linux is not
 supporting it?
 
 On their own hardware.

Which is really the point and they won't be the only ones. If IBM wants
to attract and keep customers on their hardware, they will ensure that
the software and Linux drivers for it run very well, if Linux is going
to be their main play to sell hardware. The same will hold true for
other hardware manufacturers, including those the make video cards,
modems, etc, as Linux grows in the marketplace.

Linux will not displace the software industry, it will eventually
displace the commodity portions of it. This is what has Microsoft
afraid, since commodity software is their real play, games and specialty
software isn't. The fact is, the majority of software is written
in-house and through contracted professional services work, not off the
shelf. Linux will make that side of the industry even more valuable, it
will empower the developers and the businesses that hire them to do even
more than they can today. It will empower them to do it right.

As for games and similar specialties, they aren't going anywhere. It
costs far too much money to produce a high-end game and the open source
world either can't afford it or can't produce it fast enough to support
the market.

So Allchin's flag waving is simple posturing. Microsoft may become
irrelevant, but the software industry won't.

John
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-17 Thread Gerhard Mack

On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Dennis wrote:

> BSDI is distributing FreeBSD now. They havent done anything useful to 
> support it. They are just cashing in on it.

That's BS last I heard they were merging their SMP support.

Btw have you submitted bug reports for your networking card? If not you
have no one to blame but yourself for the fact that it's not working on
your system.

Gerhard


--
Gerhard Mack

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<>< As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-17 Thread Michael H. Warfield

On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 02:56:15PM -0500, Dennis wrote:
> At 05:59 PM 02/16/2001, John Cavan wrote:
> >Dennis wrote:
> > > objective, arent we?
> >
> >You might ask yourself the same question...

> > > For example, if there were six different companies that marketed ethernet
> > > drivers for the eepro100, you'd have a choice of which one to buy..perhaps
> > > with different "features" that were of value to you. Instead, you have
> > > crappy GPL code that locks up under load, and its not worth spending
> > > corporate dollars to fix it because you have to give away your work for
> > > free under GPL. And since there is a "free" driver that most people can
> > > use, its not worth building a better mousetrap either because the market is
> > > too small. So, the handful of users with problems get to "fit it
> > > themselves", most of whom cant of course.

> >A large bulk of the investment in Linux is starting to come in from
> >hardware manufacturers, notably IBM. These companies see Linux as a
> >means to sell more hardware, not as a means to sell software. This is
> >critical, because it means that it IS worth the money to make the driver
> >perform correctly, GPL or not, because a bad driver means no sales.


> Thats wrong. The eepro100 is a great example. It works for most people, so 
> the market for an improved one is very limited. Your market is not the 
> whole community, only the community that needs something better. IBM will 
> simply blame linux if it cant handle a situation. They arent supporting 
> linux, they are only taking advantage of the fact that people want it.

Excuse me?  A 1 billion dolar investment in Linux is not supporting
it?  Setting up tier 1 and tier 2 support services for a half a dozen
distributions is not supporting it?  Porting their AIX file systems and
applications is not supporting it?  Porting it to the 390 is not supporting
it?  You bet'cha they are taking advantage of the fact that people want it.
They would be damn fools in business if they didn't take advantage of that.
And that means supporting it.  It's to their advantage to support it and
they see it.  You must have a really bizzare idea of what support means...

> BSDI is distributing FreeBSD now. They havent done anything useful to 
> support it. They are just cashing in on it.

And your point is???

> DB

Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield|  (770) 985-6132   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  (The Mad Wizard)  |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9  |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471|  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-17 Thread Dennis

At 05:59 PM 02/16/2001, John Cavan wrote:
>Dennis wrote:
> > objective, arent we?
>
>You might ask yourself the same question...
>
> > For example, if there were six different companies that marketed ethernet
> > drivers for the eepro100, you'd have a choice of which one to buy..perhaps
> > with different "features" that were of value to you. Instead, you have
> > crappy GPL code that locks up under load, and its not worth spending
> > corporate dollars to fix it because you have to give away your work for
> > free under GPL. And since there is a "free" driver that most people can
> > use, its not worth building a better mousetrap either because the market is
> > too small. So, the handful of users with problems get to "fit it
> > themselves", most of whom cant of course.
>
>A large bulk of the investment in Linux is starting to come in from
>hardware manufacturers, notably IBM. These companies see Linux as a
>means to sell more hardware, not as a means to sell software. This is
>critical, because it means that it IS worth the money to make the driver
>perform correctly, GPL or not, because a bad driver means no sales.


Thats wrong. The eepro100 is a great example. It works for most people, so 
the market for an improved one is very limited. Your market is not the 
whole community, only the community that needs something better. IBM will 
simply blame linux if it cant handle a situation. They arent supporting 
linux, they are only taking advantage of the fact that people want it.

BSDI is distributing FreeBSD now. They havent done anything useful to 
support it. They are just cashing in on it.

DB


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-17 Thread Dennis

At 05:59 PM 02/16/2001, John Cavan wrote:
Dennis wrote:
  objective, arent we?

You might ask yourself the same question...

  For example, if there were six different companies that marketed ethernet
  drivers for the eepro100, you'd have a choice of which one to buy..perhaps
  with different "features" that were of value to you. Instead, you have
  crappy GPL code that locks up under load, and its not worth spending
  corporate dollars to fix it because you have to give away your work for
  free under GPL. And since there is a "free" driver that most people can
  use, its not worth building a better mousetrap either because the market is
  too small. So, the handful of users with problems get to "fit it
  themselves", most of whom cant of course.

A large bulk of the investment in Linux is starting to come in from
hardware manufacturers, notably IBM. These companies see Linux as a
means to sell more hardware, not as a means to sell software. This is
critical, because it means that it IS worth the money to make the driver
perform correctly, GPL or not, because a bad driver means no sales.


Thats wrong. The eepro100 is a great example. It works for most people, so 
the market for an improved one is very limited. Your market is not the 
whole community, only the community that needs something better. IBM will 
simply blame linux if it cant handle a situation. They arent supporting 
linux, they are only taking advantage of the fact that people want it.

BSDI is distributing FreeBSD now. They havent done anything useful to 
support it. They are just cashing in on it.

DB


-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-17 Thread Michael H. Warfield

On Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 02:56:15PM -0500, Dennis wrote:
 At 05:59 PM 02/16/2001, John Cavan wrote:
 Dennis wrote:
   objective, arent we?
 
 You might ask yourself the same question...

   For example, if there were six different companies that marketed ethernet
   drivers for the eepro100, you'd have a choice of which one to buy..perhaps
   with different "features" that were of value to you. Instead, you have
   crappy GPL code that locks up under load, and its not worth spending
   corporate dollars to fix it because you have to give away your work for
   free under GPL. And since there is a "free" driver that most people can
   use, its not worth building a better mousetrap either because the market is
   too small. So, the handful of users with problems get to "fit it
   themselves", most of whom cant of course.

 A large bulk of the investment in Linux is starting to come in from
 hardware manufacturers, notably IBM. These companies see Linux as a
 means to sell more hardware, not as a means to sell software. This is
 critical, because it means that it IS worth the money to make the driver
 perform correctly, GPL or not, because a bad driver means no sales.


 Thats wrong. The eepro100 is a great example. It works for most people, so 
 the market for an improved one is very limited. Your market is not the 
 whole community, only the community that needs something better. IBM will 
 simply blame linux if it cant handle a situation. They arent supporting 
 linux, they are only taking advantage of the fact that people want it.

Excuse me?  A 1 billion dolar investment in Linux is not supporting
it?  Setting up tier 1 and tier 2 support services for a half a dozen
distributions is not supporting it?  Porting their AIX file systems and
applications is not supporting it?  Porting it to the 390 is not supporting
it?  You bet'cha they are taking advantage of the fact that people want it.
They would be damn fools in business if they didn't take advantage of that.
And that means supporting it.  It's to their advantage to support it and
they see it.  You must have a really bizzare idea of what support means...

 BSDI is distributing FreeBSD now. They havent done anything useful to 
 support it. They are just cashing in on it.

And your point is???

 DB

Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield|  (770) 985-6132   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  (The Mad Wizard)  |  (678) 463-0932   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9  |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471|  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-17 Thread Gerhard Mack

On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Dennis wrote:

 BSDI is distributing FreeBSD now. They havent done anything useful to 
 support it. They are just cashing in on it.

That's BS last I heard they were merging their SMP support.

Btw have you submitted bug reports for your networking card? If not you
have no one to blame but yourself for the fact that it's not working on
your system.

Gerhard


--
Gerhard Mack

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-16 Thread John Cavan

Dennis wrote:
> objective, arent we?

You might ask yourself the same question...

> For example, if there were six different companies that marketed ethernet
> drivers for the eepro100, you'd have a choice of which one to buy..perhaps
> with different "features" that were of value to you. Instead, you have
> crappy GPL code that locks up under load, and its not worth spending
> corporate dollars to fix it because you have to give away your work for
> free under GPL. And since there is a "free" driver that most people can
> use, its not worth building a better mousetrap either because the market is
> too small. So, the handful of users with problems get to "fit it
> themselves", most of whom cant of course.

A large bulk of the investment in Linux is starting to come in from
hardware manufacturers, notably IBM. These companies see Linux as a
means to sell more hardware, not as a means to sell software. This is
critical, because it means that it IS worth the money to make the driver
perform correctly, GPL or not, because a bad driver means no sales.

You can't argue from the standpoint of "small market" and then the
destruction of the market itself. By definition, in order for the
software market to be significantly damaged, Linux (and other open
source projects) would have to hold more than a small percentage of the
market. Hence, your market just got big and if you make hardware, you
better make a good driver.

[snip general name calling and other sorts of bashing - remember,
objective?]

John
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/



Re: Linux stifles innovation... [way O.T.]

2001-02-16 Thread John Cavan

Dennis wrote:
 objective, arent we?

You might ask yourself the same question...

 For example, if there were six different companies that marketed ethernet
 drivers for the eepro100, you'd have a choice of which one to buy..perhaps
 with different "features" that were of value to you. Instead, you have
 crappy GPL code that locks up under load, and its not worth spending
 corporate dollars to fix it because you have to give away your work for
 free under GPL. And since there is a "free" driver that most people can
 use, its not worth building a better mousetrap either because the market is
 too small. So, the handful of users with problems get to "fit it
 themselves", most of whom cant of course.

A large bulk of the investment in Linux is starting to come in from
hardware manufacturers, notably IBM. These companies see Linux as a
means to sell more hardware, not as a means to sell software. This is
critical, because it means that it IS worth the money to make the driver
perform correctly, GPL or not, because a bad driver means no sales.

You can't argue from the standpoint of "small market" and then the
destruction of the market itself. By definition, in order for the
software market to be significantly damaged, Linux (and other open
source projects) would have to hold more than a small percentage of the
market. Hence, your market just got big and if you make hardware, you
better make a good driver.

[snip general name calling and other sorts of bashing - remember,
objective?]

John
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/