Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thursday 28 June 2007 13:53:17 Pavel Machek wrote: > Hi! > > > And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight > > translations, but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that > > aren't mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the > > west end up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't "need" > > documenting.. > > Actually docs of cultural differences would be useful even for western > people. I'm working on it. After OLS... Rob -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi! > And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations, > but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't > mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end > up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't "need" documenting.. Actually docs of cultural differences would be useful even for western people. -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi! And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations, but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't need documenting.. Actually docs of cultural differences would be useful even for western people. -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thursday 28 June 2007 13:53:17 Pavel Machek wrote: Hi! And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations, but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't need documenting.. Actually docs of cultural differences would be useful even for western people. I'm working on it. After OLS... Rob -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On 06/24/2007 06:34 PM, Alan Cox wrote: If you've got dates the rest follows That's why they invented birth control. CNR, Rene - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
> Code merged in-tree has to be reviewed by relevant maintainers. This > is not. For in-tree code, hackers are expected to fix whatever they > break. You can't realisticaly expect me updating HOWTO to update > translations as well. Documents need to be dated anyway, and preferably give a last review date. I did that with the watchdogs and was hoping (ha!) that the rest of the world would eagerly follow suit ;) If you've got dates the rest follows Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi! > I see no reason why it can not go in, I'll add it to my queue and you > will get an automated email when it is applied. Again, what is advantage of having this in tree? Maintainers can't grep & update translations, you probably did not verify translation to be accurate (and still you are applying it), ... Code merged in-tree has to be reviewed by relevant maintainers. This is not. For in-tree code, hackers are expected to fix whatever they break. You can't realisticaly expect me updating HOWTO to update translations as well. -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi! I see no reason why it can not go in, I'll add it to my queue and you will get an automated email when it is applied. Again, what is advantage of having this in tree? Maintainers can't grep update translations, you probably did not verify translation to be accurate (and still you are applying it), ... Code merged in-tree has to be reviewed by relevant maintainers. This is not. For in-tree code, hackers are expected to fix whatever they break. You can't realisticaly expect me updating HOWTO to update translations as well. -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Code merged in-tree has to be reviewed by relevant maintainers. This is not. For in-tree code, hackers are expected to fix whatever they break. You can't realisticaly expect me updating HOWTO to update translations as well. Documents need to be dated anyway, and preferably give a last review date. I did that with the watchdogs and was hoping (ha!) that the rest of the world would eagerly follow suit ;) If you've got dates the rest follows Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On 06/24/2007 06:34 PM, Alan Cox wrote: If you've got dates the rest follows That's why they invented birth control. CNR, Rene - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Fri, Jun 22, 2007 at 03:11:45PM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: >On Friday 22 June 2007 13:02:26 Linus Torvalds wrote: >> In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or >> about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy >> and ability to do that exists. I suspect the "policies and processes" >> kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because >> they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never >> discourage anybody from translating anything at all. >> >> That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel >> makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required >> to be part of actually getting things into the "standard" kernel, and as >> such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches >> over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing >> is thus kind of pointless. >> >> But as part of some "documentation site", it makes 100% sense. > >Ok, I've got some documentation site, specifically http://kernel.org/doc (and >I'll be completely redoing it as soon as I've recovered from my recent laptop >crash and OLS). > >Send me translations (preferably in HTML format), and I'll put 'em up. (I've >already got the one that started this thread.) > >Thanks, > Please also send a copy of HTML format to me, I will put them to http://www.kerneltravel.net (A Chinese website about Linux kernel). Thanks! WANG Cong - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Friday 22 June 2007 14:39:36 TripleX wrote: > As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They > write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their > linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers > or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into > kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to > communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People > will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to > the kernel source tree. There are two distinct problems here: 1) Documentation so developers who know C but not English have an easier time working with the kernel. (Again, if you translate it, send it to me and I'll put it on the web. After OLS, though. :) 2) Some kind of "language X patch maintainer", a bilingual person who can accept patches from people who don't speak English, submit them to the mailing list, and pass comments back and forth until issues with the patch are resolved. So there could be a chinese patch maintainer, a spanish patch maintainer, etc. > TripleX Rob -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Friday 22 June 2007 13:02:26 Linus Torvalds wrote: > In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or > about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy > and ability to do that exists. I suspect the "policies and processes" > kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because > they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never > discourage anybody from translating anything at all. > > That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel > makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required > to be part of actually getting things into the "standard" kernel, and as > such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches > over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing > is thus kind of pointless. > > But as part of some "documentation site", it makes 100% sense. Ok, I've got some documentation site, specifically http://kernel.org/doc (and I'll be completely redoing it as soon as I've recovered from my recent laptop crash and OLS). Send me translations (preferably in HTML format), and I'll put 'em up. (I've already got the one that started this thread.) Thanks, Rob -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
> As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They > write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their > linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers > or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into > kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to > communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People > will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to > the kernel source tree. > > TripleX > Well, not necessarily they'll need to go to the source tree. Having a website or something like that would just be fine IMO. tong - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Friday 22 June 2007 05:21:23 Alan Cox wrote: > > The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who > > don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to > > encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in > > Chinese a > > The majority of the world population do not speak English. There are > existing contributors do not speak English (and I'm not being funny about > the USSA here) - you don't notice because they have a team member who > speaks passable English. Ok. Cool. If this is not a problem, that's good to know. > There are also entire non-English sites around things like Linux that > monoglot English speakers generally don't notice exist. I'm aware of this. > > P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web > > page is actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just > > dump together > > For the kernel I would follow the kernel tree so that its always > > /[languagecode]/Documentation/... That PS was about putting up a kernel doc web page, not about the existing kernel Documentation tree. The existing Documentation tree has, at the top level, coding style guidelines, files documenting the kernel community, a file documenting the Amiga "zorro" bus, a half-dozen files about old multiport serial cards, documentation about several different types of locking, a penguin graphic from 1996, your documentation on the tty layer, a document on how to configure BINFMT_MISC to autorun .NET files with mono, and zillions of other random unrelated topics that are sorted based on where random passerby put things down last. I sent a couple patches to shuffle stuff around in there but it got lost on the noise. More to the point, an HTML index can hotlink but text files have a harder time doing that, so if I'm making an HTML index it's probably best to link to the text files but not attempt to navigate with them. Rob -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Friday 22 June 2007 02:07:57 dave young wrote: > > > Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's > > > better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project > > > than to merge them into kernel. > > > > I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel. > > I'm misunderstanded. > > I means: > Yes, I agree with you. > There's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a > standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. I agree, but this is just an opinion. (I see where Greg KH wants to merge it into the kernel.) > > The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who > > don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to > > encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in > > Chinese a better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++? > > (Either way, work resulting from this is much less likely than normal to > > be merged into the kernel.) > > It's another issue. > > Someone don't speak english , but it don't means they haven't > programming skilles. As long as one can help to promote the kernel > development he is welcomed. I agree that programming talent can exist without the ability to speak English. But will the resulting patches get merged if the developer can't communicate with the Linux development community? I dealt with a programmer on the BusyBox project who only speaks Russian, and uses a babelfish variant to translate everything. This was incredibly frustrating: he regularly misunderstood what we were saying, we regularly had no idea what he was saying, his attempts at commenting the code were often worse than not commeting it at all, and after three years his ability to communicate hadn't improved in the slightest. Possibly we'd need some volunteer translators just for the purpose of merging code in languages we'd translated the documentation into? A "chinese patch maintainer" or some such? Rob -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Linus Torvalds wrote: On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and processes will help these people to understand the process better and go smoother in the process. I do agree. I think that the policies and processes parts of the documentation are things that make total sense to encourage translation of, because it's entirely possible that those are interesting and valid even to the people who aren't necessarily directly involved in the actual coding, and may well be relevant to managers etc who may not be _directly_ involed with the rest of the kernel developers. In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy and ability to do that exists. I suspect the "policies and processes" kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never discourage anybody from translating anything at all. That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required to be part of actually getting things into the "standard" kernel, and as such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing is thus kind of pointless. But as part of some "documentation site", it makes 100% sense. And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations, but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't "need" documenting.. As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to the kernel source tree. TripleX - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
A little issue about "when is translation good" I usually tell people to use vimtutor's example to set up syntax highlighting in vim. I usually only install OSs in english because translations tend to be poor and hard to comprehend. Now, I'm from argentina, and I live with a lingüist. He doesn't handle english very well, and he wanted to get rid of Windows, so we installed ubuntu, Locale:SP_ARG. vim is in spanish, and so is vimtutor. vimtutor's spanish translation doesn't have anything on syntax highlighting: the translation is poor. my point: IMHO it's better to have no translation than a poor one T -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| |0|0|0| - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: > > So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to > be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's > necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software > developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. > Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar > and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and > processes will help these people to understand the process better and go > smoother in the process. I do agree. I think that the policies and processes parts of the documentation are things that make total sense to encourage translation of, because it's entirely possible that those are interesting and valid even to the people who aren't necessarily directly involved in the actual coding, and may well be relevant to managers etc who may not be _directly_ involed with the rest of the kernel developers. In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy and ability to do that exists. I suspect the "policies and processes" kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never discourage anybody from translating anything at all. That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required to be part of actually getting things into the "standard" kernel, and as such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing is thus kind of pointless. But as part of some "documentation site", it makes 100% sense. And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations, but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't "need" documenting.. Linus - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
> The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't > speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage > kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a The majority of the world population do not speak English. There are existing contributors do not speak English (and I'm not being funny about the USSA here) - you don't notice because they have a team member who speaks passable English. There are also entire non-English sites around things like Linux that monoglot English speakers generally don't notice exist. > P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web page is > actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just dump together For the kernel I would follow the kernel tree so that its always /[languagecode]/Documentation/... that works fairly well although their are political fights you can get into over China/Taiwan and over Burmese. Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi, 2007/6/22, Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Thursday 21 June 2007 23:23:54 dave young wrote: > Hi, > > 2007/6/22, Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: > > > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > > > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing > > > to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. > > > Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux > > > kernel. > > > > I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at > > http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I > > just don't know if this is a good idea. > > I think it's not a good idea to merge translations into kernel. > > > The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various > > kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development > > is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue > > for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in > > Linus's native Swedish.) > > Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's > better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project > than to merge them into kernel. I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel. I'm misunderstanded. I means: Yes, I agree with you. There's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. I'm doing a web page to put together html versions of lots of kernel documentation in a place Google can find it. Peter Anvin was kind enough to give me http://kernel.org/doc for this. It would not be technically difficult for this web page to host translated versions of this documentation. The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++? (Either way, work resulting from this is much less likely than normal to be merged into the kernel.) It's another issue. Someone don't speak english , but it don't means they haven't programming skilles. As long as one can help to promote the kernel development he is welcomed. I don't know if this is a valid concern or not. That's why I'm asking. Rob P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web page is actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just dump together huge amounts of stuff from Documentation and make htmldocs and linux weekly news' kernel index and kerneltrap and kernel traffic and the kernelnewbies wiki and kernelplanet and man-pages-2.57 coverted to html with doclifter... Ahem. I finally figured out how I wanted it indexed, made a skeleton to hang stuff on, and my laptop blew up. Grrr. Mostly recovered, but now OLS is bearing down on me and I still haven't got a new laptop... Don't mind me, I'll catch up. -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. Regards dave - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
> -Original Message- > From: Rob Landley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 1:33 PM > To: dave young > Cc: Li Yang-r58472; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung; Maggie Chen; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO > > On Thursday 21 June 2007 23:23:54 dave young wrote: > > Hi, > > > > 2007/6/22, Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: > > > > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > > > > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing > > > > to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. > > > > Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux > > > > kernel. > > > > > > I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at > > > http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I > > > just don't know if this is a good idea. > > > > I think it's not a good idea to merge translations into kernel. > > > > > The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various > > > kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development > > > is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue > > > for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in > > > Linus's native Swedish.) > > > > Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's > > better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project > > than to merge them into kernel. > > I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel. > > I'm doing a web page to put together html versions of lots of kernel > documentation in a place Google can find it. Peter Anvin was kind enough to > give me http://kernel.org/doc for this. It would not be technically > difficult for this web page to host translated versions of this > documentation. > > The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't > speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage > kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a > better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++? (Either way, work > resulting from this is much less likely than normal to be merged into the > kernel.) IMHO, the ultimate language for the Linux kernel is C language rather than English. Nothing prevents one with poor English to write good C code except for the comment part. However if the code is really good to be understood on its own, the problem is not that important then. Moreover, the case here is not about people who can't read/write in English completely. It is to help and to encourage people who have some difficulty to deal with the community but has the basic English skill to deal with technical discussion. That's like why we have disability services for special people who can do things actually. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi, 2007/6/22, Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thursday 21 June 2007 23:23:54 dave young wrote: Hi, 2007/6/22, Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. I think it's not a good idea to merge translations into kernel. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel. I'm misunderstanded. I means: Yes, I agree with you. There's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. I'm doing a web page to put together html versions of lots of kernel documentation in a place Google can find it. Peter Anvin was kind enough to give me http://kernel.org/doc for this. It would not be technically difficult for this web page to host translated versions of this documentation. The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++? (Either way, work resulting from this is much less likely than normal to be merged into the kernel.) It's another issue. Someone don't speak english , but it don't means they haven't programming skilles. As long as one can help to promote the kernel development he is welcomed. I don't know if this is a valid concern or not. That's why I'm asking. Rob P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web page is actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just dump together huge amounts of stuff from Documentation and make htmldocs and linux weekly news' kernel index and kerneltrap and kernel traffic and the kernelnewbies wiki and kernelplanet and man-pages-2.57 coverted to html with doclifter... Ahem. I finally figured out how I wanted it indexed, made a skeleton to hang stuff on, and my laptop blew up. Grrr. Mostly recovered, but now OLS is bearing down on me and I still haven't got a new laptop... Don't mind me, I'll catch up. -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. Regards dave - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
-Original Message- From: Rob Landley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 1:33 PM To: dave young Cc: Li Yang-r58472; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung; Maggie Chen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO On Thursday 21 June 2007 23:23:54 dave young wrote: Hi, 2007/6/22, Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. I think it's not a good idea to merge translations into kernel. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel. I'm doing a web page to put together html versions of lots of kernel documentation in a place Google can find it. Peter Anvin was kind enough to give me http://kernel.org/doc for this. It would not be technically difficult for this web page to host translated versions of this documentation. The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++? (Either way, work resulting from this is much less likely than normal to be merged into the kernel.) IMHO, the ultimate language for the Linux kernel is C language rather than English. Nothing prevents one with poor English to write good C code except for the comment part. However if the code is really good to be understood on its own, the problem is not that important then. Moreover, the case here is not about people who can't read/write in English completely. It is to help and to encourage people who have some difficulty to deal with the community but has the basic English skill to deal with technical discussion. That's like why we have disability services for special people who can do things actually. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a The majority of the world population do not speak English. There are existing contributors do not speak English (and I'm not being funny about the USSA here) - you don't notice because they have a team member who speaks passable English. There are also entire non-English sites around things like Linux that monoglot English speakers generally don't notice exist. P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web page is actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just dump together For the kernel I would follow the kernel tree so that its always /[languagecode]/Documentation/... that works fairly well although their are political fights you can get into over China/Taiwan and over Burmese. Alan - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and processes will help these people to understand the process better and go smoother in the process. I do agree. I think that the policies and processes parts of the documentation are things that make total sense to encourage translation of, because it's entirely possible that those are interesting and valid even to the people who aren't necessarily directly involved in the actual coding, and may well be relevant to managers etc who may not be _directly_ involed with the rest of the kernel developers. In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy and ability to do that exists. I suspect the policies and processes kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never discourage anybody from translating anything at all. That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required to be part of actually getting things into the standard kernel, and as such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing is thus kind of pointless. But as part of some documentation site, it makes 100% sense. And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations, but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't need documenting.. Linus - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
A little issue about when is translation good I usually tell people to use vimtutor's example to set up syntax highlighting in vim. I usually only install OSs in english because translations tend to be poor and hard to comprehend. Now, I'm from argentina, and I live with a lingüist. He doesn't handle english very well, and he wanted to get rid of Windows, so we installed ubuntu, Locale:SP_ARG. vim is in spanish, and so is vimtutor. vimtutor's spanish translation doesn't have anything on syntax highlighting: the translation is poor. my point: IMHO it's better to have no translation than a poor one T -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| |0|0|0| - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Linus Torvalds wrote: On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and processes will help these people to understand the process better and go smoother in the process. I do agree. I think that the policies and processes parts of the documentation are things that make total sense to encourage translation of, because it's entirely possible that those are interesting and valid even to the people who aren't necessarily directly involved in the actual coding, and may well be relevant to managers etc who may not be _directly_ involed with the rest of the kernel developers. In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy and ability to do that exists. I suspect the policies and processes kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never discourage anybody from translating anything at all. That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required to be part of actually getting things into the standard kernel, and as such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing is thus kind of pointless. But as part of some documentation site, it makes 100% sense. And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations, but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't need documenting.. As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to the kernel source tree. TripleX - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Friday 22 June 2007 02:07:57 dave young wrote: Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel. I'm misunderstanded. I means: Yes, I agree with you. There's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. I agree, but this is just an opinion. (I see where Greg KH wants to merge it into the kernel.) The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++? (Either way, work resulting from this is much less likely than normal to be merged into the kernel.) It's another issue. Someone don't speak english , but it don't means they haven't programming skilles. As long as one can help to promote the kernel development he is welcomed. I agree that programming talent can exist without the ability to speak English. But will the resulting patches get merged if the developer can't communicate with the Linux development community? I dealt with a programmer on the BusyBox project who only speaks Russian, and uses a babelfish variant to translate everything. This was incredibly frustrating: he regularly misunderstood what we were saying, we regularly had no idea what he was saying, his attempts at commenting the code were often worse than not commeting it at all, and after three years his ability to communicate hadn't improved in the slightest. Possibly we'd need some volunteer translators just for the purpose of merging code in languages we'd translated the documentation into? A chinese patch maintainer or some such? Rob -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Friday 22 June 2007 05:21:23 Alan Cox wrote: The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a The majority of the world population do not speak English. There are existing contributors do not speak English (and I'm not being funny about the USSA here) - you don't notice because they have a team member who speaks passable English. Ok. Cool. If this is not a problem, that's good to know. There are also entire non-English sites around things like Linux that monoglot English speakers generally don't notice exist. I'm aware of this. P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web page is actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just dump together For the kernel I would follow the kernel tree so that its always /[languagecode]/Documentation/... That PS was about putting up a kernel doc web page, not about the existing kernel Documentation tree. The existing Documentation tree has, at the top level, coding style guidelines, files documenting the kernel community, a file documenting the Amiga zorro bus, a half-dozen files about old multiport serial cards, documentation about several different types of locking, a penguin graphic from 1996, your documentation on the tty layer, a document on how to configure BINFMT_MISC to autorun .NET files with mono, and zillions of other random unrelated topics that are sorted based on where random passerby put things down last. I sent a couple patches to shuffle stuff around in there but it got lost on the noise. More to the point, an HTML index can hotlink but text files have a harder time doing that, so if I'm making an HTML index it's probably best to link to the text files but not attempt to navigate with them. Rob -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to the kernel source tree. TripleX Well, not necessarily they'll need to go to the source tree. Having a website or something like that would just be fine IMO. tong - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Friday 22 June 2007 13:02:26 Linus Torvalds wrote: In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy and ability to do that exists. I suspect the policies and processes kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never discourage anybody from translating anything at all. That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required to be part of actually getting things into the standard kernel, and as such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing is thus kind of pointless. But as part of some documentation site, it makes 100% sense. Ok, I've got some documentation site, specifically http://kernel.org/doc (and I'll be completely redoing it as soon as I've recovered from my recent laptop crash and OLS). Send me translations (preferably in HTML format), and I'll put 'em up. (I've already got the one that started this thread.) Thanks, Rob -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Friday 22 June 2007 14:39:36 TripleX wrote: As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to the kernel source tree. There are two distinct problems here: 1) Documentation so developers who know C but not English have an easier time working with the kernel. (Again, if you translate it, send it to me and I'll put it on the web. After OLS, though. :) 2) Some kind of language X patch maintainer, a bilingual person who can accept patches from people who don't speak English, submit them to the mailing list, and pass comments back and forth until issues with the patch are resolved. So there could be a chinese patch maintainer, a spanish patch maintainer, etc. TripleX Rob -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Fri, Jun 22, 2007 at 03:11:45PM -0400, Rob Landley wrote: On Friday 22 June 2007 13:02:26 Linus Torvalds wrote: In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy and ability to do that exists. I suspect the policies and processes kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never discourage anybody from translating anything at all. That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required to be part of actually getting things into the standard kernel, and as such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing is thus kind of pointless. But as part of some documentation site, it makes 100% sense. Ok, I've got some documentation site, specifically http://kernel.org/doc (and I'll be completely redoing it as soon as I've recovered from my recent laptop crash and OLS). Send me translations (preferably in HTML format), and I'll put 'em up. (I've already got the one that started this thread.) Thanks, Please also send a copy of HTML format to me, I will put them to http://www.kerneltravel.net (A Chinese website about Linux kernel). Thanks! WANG Cong - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thursday 21 June 2007 23:23:54 dave young wrote: > Hi, > > 2007/6/22, Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: > > > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > > > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing > > > to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. > > > Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux > > > kernel. > > > > I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at > > http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I > > just don't know if this is a good idea. > > I think it's not a good idea to merge translations into kernel. > > > The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various > > kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development > > is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue > > for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in > > Linus's native Swedish.) > > Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's > better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project > than to merge them into kernel. I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel. I'm doing a web page to put together html versions of lots of kernel documentation in a place Google can find it. Peter Anvin was kind enough to give me http://kernel.org/doc for this. It would not be technically difficult for this web page to host translated versions of this documentation. The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++? (Either way, work resulting from this is much less likely than normal to be merged into the kernel.) I don't know if this is a valid concern or not. That's why I'm asking. Rob P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web page is actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just dump together huge amounts of stuff from Documentation and make htmldocs and linux weekly news' kernel index and kerneltrap and kernel traffic and the kernelnewbies wiki and kernelplanet and man-pages-2.57 coverted to html with doclifter... Ahem. I finally figured out how I wanted it indexed, made a skeleton to hang stuff on, and my laptop blew up. Grrr. Mostly recovered, but now OLS is bearing down on me and I still haven't got a new laptop... Don't mind me, I'll catch up. -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Dear Linus: you aren't at Transmeta anymore. Here's a second attempt to cc: you on this because I need your opinion on a documentation issue: On Thursday 21 June 2007 22:48:32 Rob Landley wrote: > On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: > > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to > > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope > > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. > > I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at > http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just > don't know if this is a good idea. > > The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org > mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a > single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done > in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) > > Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when > translating Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my > question is this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to > follow the documentation, how can they follow any of the technical > discussions necessary to merge their patches back into the mainstream > kernel? Doesn't this encourage the creation of patches that can't easily > be merged back into the kernel? > > It could be that the answer is "no, it's fine". I don't feel qualified to > make this decision. It's very easy for me to accept contributed > translations and put them up, but I'd like some kind of consensus from the > kernel developers that I SHOULD do this. How much use is a Chinese version > of a HOWTO that tells people how to interact with an English community? > > Could somebody more qualified than me speak up on this one so I know what > to do? > > Rob > > P.S. I meant to comment when this topic first came up last week > [http://kerneltrap.org/node/8365] but my laptop's hard drive died and I > lost the link. (Along with any chance of this being a particularly > productive month for me...) -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Fri, Jun 22, 2007 at 11:58:58AM +0800, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: >> -Original Message- >> From: Rob Landley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:49 AM >> >> On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: >> > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. >Currently >> > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially >comparing to >> > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. >Hope >> > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. >> >> I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at >http://kernel.org/doc >> and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if >this is a >> good idea. >> >> The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various >kernel.org >> mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done >in a >> single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be >done >> in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native >Swedish.) >> >> Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when >translating >> Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my >question is >> this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the >> documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions >necessary >> to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this >> encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back >into the >> kernel? > >So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to >be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's >necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software >developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. >Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar >and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and >processes will help these people to understand the process better and go >smoother in the process. > Yes, I agree. Many people from China are trying to contribute to Linux kernel (like me), a Chinese document which describes and explains the non-technical things needed by Linux kernel will help them _much_ to join the development soon. Also, IMO, a translation shows Linux kernel is friendly and open to people from all over the world. Regards! WANG Cong - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 11:58 +0800, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: Rob Landley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:49 AM > > > > On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: > > > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. > Currently > > > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially > comparing to > > > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. > Hope > > > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. > > > > I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at > http://kernel.org/doc > > and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if > this is a > > good idea. > > > > The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various > kernel.org > > mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done > in a > > single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be > done > > in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native > Swedish.) > > > > Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when > translating > > Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my > question is > > this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the > > documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions > necessary > > to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this > > encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back > into the > > kernel? > > So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to > be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's > necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software > developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. > Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar > and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and > processes will help these people to understand the process better and go > smoother in the process. > > - Leo Leo is right. Policies and processes should be clear for all developer including non-native English speakers, while other technical documents do not need to be translated. After I read the translations, I also found something I missed before. Thanks for the work - Bryan Wu - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
> -Original Message- > From: Rob Landley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:49 AM > > On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: > > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to > > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope > > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. > > I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc > and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a > good idea. > > The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org > mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a > single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done > in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) > > Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when translating > Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my question is > this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the > documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions necessary > to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this > encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back into the > kernel? So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and processes will help these people to understand the process better and go smoother in the process. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi, 2007/6/22, Rob Landley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. I think it's not a good idea to merge translations into kernel. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. Regards dave - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when translating Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my question is this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions necessary to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back into the kernel? It could be that the answer is "no, it's fine". I don't feel qualified to make this decision. It's very easy for me to accept contributed translations and put them up, but I'd like some kind of consensus from the kernel developers that I SHOULD do this. How much use is a Chinese version of a HOWTO that tells people how to interact with an English community? Could somebody more qualified than me speak up on this one so I know what to do? Rob P.S. I meant to comment when this topic first came up last week [http://kerneltrap.org/node/8365] but my laptop's hard drive died and I lost the link. (Along with any chance of this being a particularly productive month for me...) -- "One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code." - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 22:40 +0800, Li Yang wrote: > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I tried to find some bugs in this translation, but I failed, -:)). Thanks a lot for your work, I hope I can do some help next time. Best Regards, - Bryan Wu - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
> This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. > > Signed-off-by: Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Signed-off-by: TripleX Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Signed-off-by: Maggie Chen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > --- > Address comments from Wang Cong. > Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO | 536 > + > 1 files changed, 536 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) > create mode 100644 Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO > > diff --git a/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO > new file mode 100644 > index 000..c70debd > --- /dev/null > +++ b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO [...] I read through the translated HOWTO. Looks good to me. Eugene - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 10:40:17PM +0800, Li Yang wrote: >This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently >Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to >its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope >this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. > >Signed-off-by: Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Signed-off-by: TripleX Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Signed-off-by: Maggie Chen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Signed-off-by: WANG Cong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >--- >Address comments from Wang Cong. > Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO | 536 + > 1 files changed, 536 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) > create mode 100644 Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO > >diff --git a/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO >new file mode 100644 >index 000..c70debd >--- /dev/null >+++ b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO Thanks! Looks fine for me this time. However, I have noticed this patch for original HOWTO: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/19/299 Maybe we can ask Greg if that patch has applied. If so, we should also change ours. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 10:40:17PM +0800, Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. Signed-off-by: Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: TripleX Chung [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: Maggie Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: WANG Cong [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Address comments from Wang Cong. Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO | 536 + 1 files changed, 536 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) create mode 100644 Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO diff --git a/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO new file mode 100644 index 000..c70debd --- /dev/null +++ b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO Thanks! Looks fine for me this time. However, I have noticed this patch for original HOWTO: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/19/299 Maybe we can ask Greg if that patch has applied. If so, we should also change ours. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
quote sender=Li Yang This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. Signed-off-by: Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: TripleX Chung [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: Maggie Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Address comments from Wang Cong. Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO | 536 + 1 files changed, 536 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) create mode 100644 Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO diff --git a/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO new file mode 100644 index 000..c70debd --- /dev/null +++ b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO [...] I read through the translated HOWTO. Looks good to me. Eugene - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thu, 2007-06-21 at 22:40 +0800, Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I tried to find some bugs in this translation, but I failed, -:)). Thanks a lot for your work, I hope I can do some help next time. Best Regards, - Bryan Wu - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when translating Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my question is this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions necessary to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back into the kernel? It could be that the answer is no, it's fine. I don't feel qualified to make this decision. It's very easy for me to accept contributed translations and put them up, but I'd like some kind of consensus from the kernel developers that I SHOULD do this. How much use is a Chinese version of a HOWTO that tells people how to interact with an English community? Could somebody more qualified than me speak up on this one so I know what to do? Rob P.S. I meant to comment when this topic first came up last week [http://kerneltrap.org/node/8365] but my laptop's hard drive died and I lost the link. (Along with any chance of this being a particularly productive month for me...) -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi, 2007/6/22, Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. I think it's not a good idea to merge translations into kernel. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. Regards dave - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
-Original Message- From: Rob Landley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:49 AM On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when translating Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my question is this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions necessary to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back into the kernel? So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and processes will help these people to understand the process better and go smoother in the process. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Fri, 2007-06-22 at 11:58 +0800, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: -Original Message- From: Rob Landley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:49 AM On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when translating Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my question is this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions necessary to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back into the kernel? So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and processes will help these people to understand the process better and go smoother in the process. - Leo Leo is right. Policies and processes should be clear for all developer including non-native English speakers, while other technical documents do not need to be translated. After I read the translations, I also found something I missed before. Thanks for the work - Bryan Wu - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Fri, Jun 22, 2007 at 11:58:58AM +0800, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: -Original Message- From: Rob Landley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 10:49 AM On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when translating Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my question is this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions necessary to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back into the kernel? So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms. Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and processes will help these people to understand the process better and go smoother in the process. Yes, I agree. Many people from China are trying to contribute to Linux kernel (like me), a Chinese document which describes and explains the non-technical things needed by Linux kernel will help them _much_ to join the development soon. Also, IMO, a translation shows Linux kernel is friendly and open to people from all over the world. Regards! WANG Cong - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Dear Linus: you aren't at Transmeta anymore. Here's a second attempt to cc: you on this because I need your opinion on a documentation issue: On Thursday 21 June 2007 22:48:32 Rob Landley wrote: On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Setting aside for the moment version skew and coverage issues when translating Documentation, which aren't really serious blocking issues, my question is this: If developers aren't fluent enough with English to follow the documentation, how can they follow any of the technical discussions necessary to merge their patches back into the mainstream kernel? Doesn't this encourage the creation of patches that can't easily be merged back into the kernel? It could be that the answer is no, it's fine. I don't feel qualified to make this decision. It's very easy for me to accept contributed translations and put them up, but I'd like some kind of consensus from the kernel developers that I SHOULD do this. How much use is a Chinese version of a HOWTO that tells people how to interact with an English community? Could somebody more qualified than me speak up on this one so I know what to do? Rob P.S. I meant to comment when this topic first came up last week [http://kerneltrap.org/node/8365] but my laptop's hard drive died and I lost the link. (Along with any chance of this being a particularly productive month for me...) -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Thursday 21 June 2007 23:23:54 dave young wrote: Hi, 2007/6/22, Rob Landley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thursday 21 June 2007 10:40:17 Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. I'm putting together a kernel documentation directory at http://kernel.org/doc and I could easily add translations in there. I just don't know if this is a good idea. I think it's not a good idea to merge translations into kernel. The problem is, the submission of patches happens on the various kernel.org mailing lists, which are all in English. Kernel development is done in a single common language: English. (If you'd like to argue for it to be done in another language, please make the proposal in Linus's native Swedish.) Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel. I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel. I'm doing a web page to put together html versions of lots of kernel documentation in a place Google can find it. Peter Anvin was kind enough to give me http://kernel.org/doc for this. It would not be technically difficult for this web page to host translated versions of this documentation. The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in Chinese a better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++? (Either way, work resulting from this is much less likely than normal to be merged into the kernel.) I don't know if this is a valid concern or not. That's why I'm asking. Rob P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web page is actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just dump together huge amounts of stuff from Documentation and make htmldocs and linux weekly news' kernel index and kerneltrap and kernel traffic and the kernelnewbies wiki and kernelplanet and man-pages-2.57 coverted to html with doclifter... Ahem. I finally figured out how I wanted it indexed, made a skeleton to hang stuff on, and my laptop blew up. Grrr. Mostly recovered, but now OLS is bearing down on me and I still haven't got a new laptop... Don't mind me, I'll catch up. -- One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code. - Ken Thompson. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 05:22:49AM +, dave young wrote: > Hi, > 2007/6/20, Li Yang-r58472 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > -Original Message- > > > From: dave young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:58 AM > > > To: WANG Cong > > > Cc: Li Yang-r58472; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > TripleX Chung; > > > Maggie Chen; Tejun Heo; Fengguang Wu; Chen Li-jun > > > Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO > > > > > > Hi, > > > IMHO, it is not very suitable for translations merging into kernel. > > > > > > first, It's impossible to be 100% accurate. > > > > It can be accurate by meaning. And it can be improved. > > > > > second, two or more language need to be synced with english one, it's > > > a problem in the long run. > > > > This can be done through good maintenance. I don't think it's harder > > than maintaining the code in kernel source tree. > > Yes, but the documents updating are always late than the sources. These files change _very_ slowly, only 5 minor changes in the past 3 years or so. I think the translators can keep up with that :) thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi, 2007/6/20, Li Yang-r58472 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > -Original Message- > From: dave young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:58 AM > To: WANG Cong > Cc: Li Yang-r58472; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung; > Maggie Chen; Tejun Heo; Fengguang Wu; Chen Li-jun > Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO > > Hi, > IMHO, it is not very suitable for translations merging into kernel. > > first, It's impossible to be 100% accurate. It can be accurate by meaning. And it can be improved. > second, two or more language need to be synced with english one, it's > a problem in the long run. This can be done through good maintenance. I don't think it's harder than maintaining the code in kernel source tree. Yes, but the documents updating are always late than the sources. In my personal opinion, Of course chinese translaton is a valuable work, But I don't like huge kernel source with tuns of translations, english only is always better choice. Anyway thanks for the work :) Regards dave - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
> -Original Message- > From: dave young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:58 AM > To: WANG Cong > Cc: Li Yang-r58472; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung; > Maggie Chen; Tejun Heo; Fengguang Wu; Chen Li-jun > Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO > > Hi, > IMHO, it is not very suitable for translations merging into kernel. > > first, It's impossible to be 100% accurate. It can be accurate by meaning. And it can be improved. > second, two or more language need to be synced with english one, it's > a problem in the long run. This can be done through good maintenance. I don't think it's harder than maintaining the code in kernel source tree. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 12:14:59AM +0800, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: >Hi Wangcong, > >Thanks for your comments. Most of the comments are literal. I don't >believe all of them are necessary as language is a matter of personal >preference. :) I will consider your suggestions carefully and pick up >those which are really necessary. Yes. I just give you my comments and hope you can consider them carefully. Making the final decisions is still your work. ;) Thanks! WANG Cong - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 22:21 +0800, Li Yang wrote: > This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. > Currently > Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing > to > its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. > Hope > this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. > Thanks a lot for your valuable work. If you need any help, please feel free to tell me. I will go though the Chinese version HOWTO and give you some feedback. Thanks again Best Regards, - Bryan Wu - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi Wangcong,
Thanks for your comments. Most of the comments are literal. I don't
believe all of them are necessary as language is a matter of personal
preference. :) I will consider your suggestions carefully and pick up
those which are really necessary.
- Leo
> -Original Message-
> From: WANG Cong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:36 PM
> To: Li Yang-r58472
> Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung;
Maggie Chen;
> Tejun Heo; Fengguang Wu; Chen Li-jun
> Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
>
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 10:21:03PM +0800, Li Yang wrote:
> >This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO.
Currently
> >Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing
to
> >its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle.
Hope
> >this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel.
>
> Thanks for your work!
>
> I hope people here who don't understand Chinese won't mind if I
comment the
> following patch in Chinese. ;)
>
{snip}
-
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 10:21:03PM +0800, Li Yang wrote: >This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently >Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to >its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope >this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. Thanks for your work! I hope people here who don't understand Chinese won't mind if I comment the following patch in Chinese. ;) > >Signed-off-by: Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Signed-off-by: TripleX Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Signed-off-by: Maggie Chen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >--- > Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO | 534 + > 1 files changed, 534 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) > create mode 100644 Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO > >diff --git a/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO >new file mode 100644 >index 000..27b0fe7 >--- /dev/null >+++ b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO >@@ -0,0 +1,534 @@ >+???Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO >+ >+If you have any comment or update to the content, please contact the >+original document maintainer directly. However, if you have problem >+communicating in English you can also ask the Chinese maintainer for >+help. Contact the Chinese maintainer, if this translation is outdated >+or there is problem with translation. >+ >+Maintainer: Greg Kroah-Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >+Chinese maintainer: Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >+- >+Documentation/HOWTO 的中文翻译 >+ >+如果想评论或更新本文的内容，请直接联系原文档的维护者。如果你使用英文 >+交流有困难的话，也可以向中文版维护者求助。如果本翻译更新不及时或者翻 >+译存在问题，请联系中文版维护者。 >+ >+英文版维护者： Greg Kroah-Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >+中文版维护者： 李阳 Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >+中文版翻译者： 李阳 Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >+中文版校译者： 钟宇 TripleX Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >+ 陈琦 Maggie Chen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >+ >+以下为正文 >+- >+ >+如何参与Linux内核开发 >+- >+ >+这是一篇将如何参与Linux内核开发的相关问题一网打尽的终极秘笈。它将指导你 >+成为一名Linux内核开发者，并且学会如何同Linux内核开发社区合作。它尽可能不 >+包括任何关于内核编程的技术细节，但会给你指引一条获得这些知识的正确途径。 >+ >+如果这篇文章中的任何内容不再适用，请给文末列出的文件维护者发送补丁。 >+ >+ >+入门 >+ >+ >+你想了解如何成为一名Linux内核开发者？或者老板吩咐你“给这个设备写个Linux >+驱动程序”？这篇文章的目的就是教会你达成这些目标的全部要诀，它将描述你需 翻译成“这篇文章的目标就是传授给你如何达到这些目的的全部诀窍。” 是不是更好一点？ >+要经过的流程以及给出如何同内核社区合作的一些提示。它还将试图解释为什么内 >+核社区是如此运作的。 “它还将试图解释内核社区为何这样运作。”怎样？ >+ >+Linux内核大部分是由C语言写成的，一些体系结构相关的代码用到了汇编语言。要 >+参与内核开发，你必须精通C语言。除非你想为某个架构开发底层代码，否则你并 >+不需要了解（任何体系结构的）汇编语言。下面列举的书籍虽然不能替代扎实的C 语句颠倒一下怎样？ “你并不需要了解...，除非你...” >+语言教育和多年的开发经验，但如果需要的话，做为参考还是不错的： >+ - "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and Ritchie [Prentice Hall] >+ 《C程序设计语言（第2版??新版）》（徐宝文 李志 译）[机械工业出版社] >+ - "Practical C Programming" by Steve Oualline [O'Reilly] >+ 《实用C语言编程（第三版）》（郭大海 译）[中国电力出版社] >+ - "C: A Reference Manual" by Harbison and Steele [Prentice Hall] >+ 《C语言参考手册（原书第5版）》（邱仲潘 等译）[机械工业出版社] >+ >+Linux内核使用GNU C和GNU工具链开发。虽然它遵循ISO C89标准，但也用到了一些 >+标准中没有定义的扩展。内核是自给自足的C环境，不依赖于标准C库的支持，所以 >+并不支持C标准中的部分定义。比如long long类型的大数除法和浮点运算就不允许 >+使用。有时候确实很难弄清楚内核对工具链的要求和它所使用的扩展，不幸的是目 >+前还没有明确的参考资料可以解释它们。请查阅gcc信息页（使用“info gcc”命令 >+显示）获得一些这方面信息。 >+ >+请记住你是在学习怎么和已经存在的开发社区打交道。它由一群形形色色的人组成， >+他们对代码、风格和过程有着很高的标准。这些标准是在长期实践中总结出来的， >+适应于地理上分散的大型开发团队。它们已经被很好得整理成档，建议你在开发 >+之前尽可能多的学习这些标准，而不要期望别人来适应你或者你公司的行为方式。 “way of doing things”翻译成“做事方式”怎么样？ >+ >+ >+法律问题 >+ >+ >+Linux内核的代码都是在GPL（通用公共许可证）的保护下发布的。要了解这种许可 用词不当，请改为“Linux内核源代码”，因为原文是“Linux kernel source code”。 >+的细节请查看源代码主目录下的COPYING文件。如果你对它还有更深入问题请联系 >+律师，而不要在Linux内核邮件组上提问。因为邮件组里的人并不是律师，不要期 >+望他们的话有法律效力。 >+ >+对于GPL的常见问题和解答，请访问以下链接： 原文是“ please see”，所以翻译成“请参考”或许更好一些。 >+ http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html >+ >+ >+文档 >+ >+ >+Linux内核代码中包含有大量的文档。这些文档对于学习如何与内核社区互动，价 >+值不可估量。当一个新的功能被加入内核，最好把解释如何使用这个功能的文档也 翻译成“这些文档对学习...有着不可估量的价值”怎样？而且，这一句前面最好是 逗号，因为原文是个定于从句。 >+放进内核。当内核的改动导致面向用户空间的接口发生变化时，最好将相关信息或 不是“面向用户空间”，而是“导出到用户空间”。 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >+的维护者解释这些变化。 >+ >+以下是内核代码中需要阅读的文档： >+ README >+文件简要介绍了Linux内核的背景，并且描述如何配置和编译内核。内核的新 鉴于原文是“This file...”，所以翻译成“该文件...”会更好些。 而且，“描述”一词后面丢了个“了”。 >+用户应该从这里开始。 >+ >+ Documentation/Changes >+文件给出了用来编译和使用内核所需要的最小软件包列表。 >+ >+ Documentation/CodingStyle >+描述Linux内核的代码风格和理由。所有新代码需要遵守这篇文档中定义的规 >+范。大多数维护者只会接收符合规定的补丁，很多人也只会帮忙检查符合风格 >+的代码。 >+ >+ Documentation/SubmittingPatches >+ Documentation/SubmittingDrivers >+这两个文档明确描述如何创建和发送补丁，其中包括（但不仅限于)： “两份文档”是不是更恰当？ >+ - 邮件内容 >+ - 邮件格式 >+ - 选择收件人 >+遵守这些规定并不能保证提交成功（因为所有补丁需要通过严格的内容和风格 >+审查），但是忽视他们几乎就意味着失败。 >+ >+其他关于如何正确地生成补丁的优秀文档包括： s/其他/其它/ ？？ >+"The Perfect Patch" >+http://www.zip.com.au/~akpm/linux/patches/stuff/tpp.txt >+"Linux kernel patch submission format" >+http://linux.yyz.us/patch-format.html >+ >+ Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt >+论证内核为什么特意不包括稳定的内核内部API，也就是说不包括像这样的特 >+性： >+ - 子系统中间层（为了兼容性？） >+ - 在不同操作系统间易于移植的驱动程序 >+ - 减缓（甚至阻止）内核代码的快速变化 >+
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 11:26:36PM +0800, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: > Hi all, > > I hope this document can get into the kernel tree. As I read through > the discussion about Japanese translation, there are quite some > arguments that one cannot do kernel development effectively without > solid English skill. As a non-native English speaker, I would say that > it is much easier to understand technical terms and effectively discuss > technical matters. But community policies and politics are different > things. They will be very painful for one who doesn't really grasp > English well. IMHO, having these policy documents in different > languages will greatly help these non-native speakers to contribute, > hence greatly benefit the Linux kernel community itself. I see no reason why it can not go in, I'll add it to my queue and you will get an automated email when it is applied. thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi all,
I hope this document can get into the kernel tree. As I read through
the discussion about Japanese translation, there are quite some
arguments that one cannot do kernel development effectively without
solid English skill. As a non-native English speaker, I would say that
it is much easier to understand technical terms and effectively discuss
technical matters. But community policies and politics are different
things. They will be very painful for one who doesn't really grasp
English well. IMHO, having these policy documents in different
languages will greatly help these non-native speakers to contribute,
hence greatly benefit the Linux kernel community itself.
- Leo
> -Original Message-
> From: Li Yang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:21 PM
> To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Li Yang-r58472; TripleX Chung; Maggie Chen
> Subject: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
>
> This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO.
Currently
> Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing
to
> its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle.
Hope
> this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel.
>
> Signed-off-by: Li Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Signed-off-by: TripleX Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Signed-off-by: Maggie Chen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ---
> Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO | 534
> +
> 1 files changed, 534 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)
> create mode 100644 Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO
> new file mode 100644
> index 000..27b0fe7
> --- /dev/null
> +++ b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO
{snip}
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi all,
I hope this document can get into the kernel tree. As I read through
the discussion about Japanese translation, there are quite some
arguments that one cannot do kernel development effectively without
solid English skill. As a non-native English speaker, I would say that
it is much easier to understand technical terms and effectively discuss
technical matters. But community policies and politics are different
things. They will be very painful for one who doesn't really grasp
English well. IMHO, having these policy documents in different
languages will greatly help these non-native speakers to contribute,
hence greatly benefit the Linux kernel community itself.
- Leo
-Original Message-
From: Li Yang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:21 PM
To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Li Yang-r58472; TripleX Chung; Maggie Chen
Subject: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO.
Currently
Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing
to
its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle.
Hope
this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel.
Signed-off-by: Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Signed-off-by: TripleX Chung [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Signed-off-by: Maggie Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO | 534
+
1 files changed, 534 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)
create mode 100644 Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO
diff --git a/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO
new file mode 100644
index 000..27b0fe7
--- /dev/null
+++ b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO
{snip}
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in
the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 11:26:36PM +0800, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: Hi all, I hope this document can get into the kernel tree. As I read through the discussion about Japanese translation, there are quite some arguments that one cannot do kernel development effectively without solid English skill. As a non-native English speaker, I would say that it is much easier to understand technical terms and effectively discuss technical matters. But community policies and politics are different things. They will be very painful for one who doesn't really grasp English well. IMHO, having these policy documents in different languages will greatly help these non-native speakers to contribute, hence greatly benefit the Linux kernel community itself. I see no reason why it can not go in, I'll add it to my queue and you will get an automated email when it is applied. thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 10:21:03PM +0800, Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. Thanks for your work! I hope people here who don't understand Chinese won't mind if I comment the following patch in Chinese. ;) Signed-off-by: Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: TripleX Chung [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signed-off-by: Maggie Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO | 534 + 1 files changed, 534 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) create mode 100644 Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO diff --git a/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO new file mode 100644 index 000..27b0fe7 --- /dev/null +++ b/Documentation/zh_CN/HOWTO @@ -0,0 +1,534 @@ +???Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO + +If you have any comment or update to the content, please contact the +original document maintainer directly. However, if you have problem +communicating in English you can also ask the Chinese maintainer for +help. Contact the Chinese maintainer, if this translation is outdated +or there is problem with translation. + +Maintainer: Greg Kroah-Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] +Chinese maintainer: Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] +- +Documentation/HOWTO 的中文翻译 + +如果想评论或更新本文的内容，请直接联系原文档的维护者。如果你使用英文 +交流有困难的话，也可以向中文版维护者求助。如果本翻译更新不及时或者翻 +译存在问题，请联系中文版维护者。 + +英文版维护者： Greg Kroah-Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] +中文版维护者： 李阳 Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] +中文版翻译者： 李阳 Li Yang [EMAIL PROTECTED] +中文版校译者： 钟宇 TripleX Chung [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 陈琦 Maggie Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] + +以下为正文 +- + +如何参与Linux内核开发 +- + +这是一篇将如何参与Linux内核开发的相关问题一网打尽的终极秘笈。它将指导你 +成为一名Linux内核开发者，并且学会如何同Linux内核开发社区合作。它尽可能不 +包括任何关于内核编程的技术细节，但会给你指引一条获得这些知识的正确途径。 + +如果这篇文章中的任何内容不再适用，请给文末列出的文件维护者发送补丁。 + + +入门 + + +你想了解如何成为一名Linux内核开发者？或者老板吩咐你“给这个设备写个Linux +驱动程序”？这篇文章的目的就是教会你达成这些目标的全部要诀，它将描述你需 翻译成“这篇文章的目标就是传授给你如何达到这些目的的全部诀窍。” 是不是更好一点？ +要经过的流程以及给出如何同内核社区合作的一些提示。它还将试图解释为什么内 +核社区是如此运作的。 “它还将试图解释内核社区为何这样运作。”怎样？ + +Linux内核大部分是由C语言写成的，一些体系结构相关的代码用到了汇编语言。要 +参与内核开发，你必须精通C语言。除非你想为某个架构开发底层代码，否则你并 +不需要了解（任何体系结构的）汇编语言。下面列举的书籍虽然不能替代扎实的C 语句颠倒一下怎样？ “你并不需要了解...，除非你...” +语言教育和多年的开发经验，但如果需要的话，做为参考还是不错的： + - The C Programming Language by Kernighan and Ritchie [Prentice Hall] + 《C程序设计语言（第2版??新版）》（徐宝文 李志 译）[机械工业出版社] + - Practical C Programming by Steve Oualline [O'Reilly] + 《实用C语言编程（第三版）》（郭大海 译）[中国电力出版社] + - C: A Reference Manual by Harbison and Steele [Prentice Hall] + 《C语言参考手册（原书第5版）》（邱仲潘 等译）[机械工业出版社] + +Linux内核使用GNU C和GNU工具链开发。虽然它遵循ISO C89标准，但也用到了一些 +标准中没有定义的扩展。内核是自给自足的C环境，不依赖于标准C库的支持，所以 +并不支持C标准中的部分定义。比如long long类型的大数除法和浮点运算就不允许 +使用。有时候确实很难弄清楚内核对工具链的要求和它所使用的扩展，不幸的是目 +前还没有明确的参考资料可以解释它们。请查阅gcc信息页（使用“info gcc”命令 +显示）获得一些这方面信息。 + +请记住你是在学习怎么和已经存在的开发社区打交道。它由一群形形色色的人组成， +他们对代码、风格和过程有着很高的标准。这些标准是在长期实践中总结出来的， +适应于地理上分散的大型开发团队。它们已经被很好得整理成档，建议你在开发 +之前尽可能多的学习这些标准，而不要期望别人来适应你或者你公司的行为方式。 “way of doing things”翻译成“做事方式”怎么样？ + + +法律问题 + + +Linux内核的代码都是在GPL（通用公共许可证）的保护下发布的。要了解这种许可 用词不当，请改为“Linux内核源代码”，因为原文是“Linux kernel source code”。 +的细节请查看源代码主目录下的COPYING文件。如果你对它还有更深入问题请联系 +律师，而不要在Linux内核邮件组上提问。因为邮件组里的人并不是律师，不要期 +望他们的话有法律效力。 + +对于GPL的常见问题和解答，请访问以下链接： 原文是“ please see”，所以翻译成“请参考”或许更好一些。 + http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html + + +文档 + + +Linux内核代码中包含有大量的文档。这些文档对于学习如何与内核社区互动，价 +值不可估量。当一个新的功能被加入内核，最好把解释如何使用这个功能的文档也 翻译成“这些文档对学习...有着不可估量的价值”怎样？而且，这一句前面最好是 逗号，因为原文是个定于从句。 +放进内核。当内核的改动导致面向用户空间的接口发生变化时，最好将相关信息或 不是“面向用户空间”，而是“导出到用户空间”。 [EMAIL PROTECTED] +的维护者解释这些变化。 + +以下是内核代码中需要阅读的文档： + README +文件简要介绍了Linux内核的背景，并且描述如何配置和编译内核。内核的新 鉴于原文是“This file...”，所以翻译成“该文件...”会更好些。 而且，“描述”一词后面丢了个“了”。 +用户应该从这里开始。 + + Documentation/Changes +文件给出了用来编译和使用内核所需要的最小软件包列表。 + + Documentation/CodingStyle +描述Linux内核的代码风格和理由。所有新代码需要遵守这篇文档中定义的规 +范。大多数维护者只会接收符合规定的补丁，很多人也只会帮忙检查符合风格 +的代码。 + + Documentation/SubmittingPatches + Documentation/SubmittingDrivers +这两个文档明确描述如何创建和发送补丁，其中包括（但不仅限于)： “两份文档”是不是更恰当？ + - 邮件内容 + - 邮件格式 + - 选择收件人 +遵守这些规定并不能保证提交成功（因为所有补丁需要通过严格的内容和风格 +审查），但是忽视他们几乎就意味着失败。 + +其他关于如何正确地生成补丁的优秀文档包括： s/其他/其它/ ？？ +The Perfect Patch +http://www.zip.com.au/~akpm/linux/patches/stuff/tpp.txt +Linux kernel patch submission format +http://linux.yyz.us/patch-format.html + + Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt +论证内核为什么特意不包括稳定的内核内部API，也就是说不包括像这样的特 +性： + - 子系统中间层（为了兼容性？） + - 在不同操作系统间易于移植的驱动程序 + - 减缓（甚至阻止）内核代码的快速变化 +这篇文档对于理解Linux的开发哲学至关重要。对于将开发平台从其他操作系 +统转移到Linux的人来说也很重要。 + + Documentation/SecurityBugs +如果你认为自己发现了Linux内核的安全性问题，请根据这篇文档中的步骤来 +提醒其他内核开发者并帮助解决这个问题。 + +
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi Wangcong,
Thanks for your comments. Most of the comments are literal. I don't
believe all of them are necessary as language is a matter of personal
preference. :) I will consider your suggestions carefully and pick up
those which are really necessary.
- Leo
-Original Message-
From: WANG Cong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:36 PM
To: Li Yang-r58472
Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung;
Maggie Chen;
Tejun Heo; Fengguang Wu; Chen Li-jun
Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Tue, Jun 19, 2007 at 10:21:03PM +0800, Li Yang wrote:
This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO.
Currently
Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing
to
its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle.
Hope
this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel.
Thanks for your work!
I hope people here who don't understand Chinese won't mind if I
comment the
following patch in Chinese. ;)
{snip}
-
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Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Tue, 2007-06-19 at 22:21 +0800, Li Yang wrote: This is a Chinese translated version of Documentation/HOWTO. Currently Chinese involvement in Linux kernel is very low, especially comparing to its largest population base. Language could be the main obstacle. Hope this document will help more Chinese to contribute to Linux kernel. Thanks a lot for your valuable work. If you need any help, please feel free to tell me. I will go though the Chinese version HOWTO and give you some feedback. Thanks again Best Regards, - Bryan Wu - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 12:14:59AM +0800, Li Yang-r58472 wrote: Hi Wangcong, Thanks for your comments. Most of the comments are literal. I don't believe all of them are necessary as language is a matter of personal preference. :) I will consider your suggestions carefully and pick up those which are really necessary. Yes. I just give you my comments and hope you can consider them carefully. Making the final decisions is still your work. ;) Thanks! WANG Cong - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
-Original Message- From: dave young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:58 AM To: WANG Cong Cc: Li Yang-r58472; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung; Maggie Chen; Tejun Heo; Fengguang Wu; Chen Li-jun Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO Hi, IMHO, it is not very suitable for translations merging into kernel. first, It's impossible to be 100% accurate. It can be accurate by meaning. And it can be improved. second, two or more language need to be synced with english one, it's a problem in the long run. This can be done through good maintenance. I don't think it's harder than maintaining the code in kernel source tree. - Leo - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
Hi, 2007/6/20, Li Yang-r58472 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -Original Message- From: dave young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:58 AM To: WANG Cong Cc: Li Yang-r58472; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung; Maggie Chen; Tejun Heo; Fengguang Wu; Chen Li-jun Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO Hi, IMHO, it is not very suitable for translations merging into kernel. first, It's impossible to be 100% accurate. It can be accurate by meaning. And it can be improved. second, two or more language need to be synced with english one, it's a problem in the long run. This can be done through good maintenance. I don't think it's harder than maintaining the code in kernel source tree. Yes, but the documents updating are always late than the sources. In my personal opinion, Of course chinese translaton is a valuable work, But I don't like huge kernel source with tuns of translations, english only is always better choice. Anyway thanks for the work :) Regards dave - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO
On Wed, Jun 20, 2007 at 05:22:49AM +, dave young wrote: Hi, 2007/6/20, Li Yang-r58472 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -Original Message- From: dave young [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:58 AM To: WANG Cong Cc: Li Yang-r58472; linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TripleX Chung; Maggie Chen; Tejun Heo; Fengguang Wu; Chen Li-jun Subject: Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO Hi, IMHO, it is not very suitable for translations merging into kernel. first, It's impossible to be 100% accurate. It can be accurate by meaning. And it can be improved. second, two or more language need to be synced with english one, it's a problem in the long run. This can be done through good maintenance. I don't think it's harder than maintaining the code in kernel source tree. Yes, but the documents updating are always late than the sources. These files change _very_ slowly, only 5 minor changes in the past 3 years or so. I think the translators can keep up with that :) thanks, greg k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
