Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On 06/11/2007 02:14 AM, Adrian Bunk wrote: On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. They should be able to read _and_ reply_ to lkml posts, and read and understnd code _and_ comments_. ... Kconfig is different since the target audience and the majority of users are not kernel developers. Well, hardly. The percentages quoted vary wildly with the point someone is trying to make but "user users" are expected to just use whatever their distribution provided them with meaning the Kconfig target audience is developers and "power users". Enough of the latter around certainly but I have no indication whatsoever that a significant number of them is lost in the water without Kconfig translations either. Internationalization is not very useful, has great potential to introduce even more chronically bit-rotting content and is finally counter-productive in maintaining a non-forking single community, at least in so far as it is today. One should spit on internationalization. Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On 06/11/2007 02:56 AM, Paul Mundt wrote: On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. That's a ridiculous statement. Non-native language abilities and technical competence have very little to do with each other. That sounds nice maybe but it's actually simply false. Natural language abilities and computer language abilities are very much related. You also seem to ignore the other point that you don't _want_ to have significant groups of people go off in different directions and not communicate other than by a few selected interpreters. Here, as in most situations, communication is something to promote, not something you want to make easier to avoid. I see your linux-sh address which seems to point embedded-wise? Really need even better examples of significant groups of developers going off in different directions, not communicating and not doing Linux or themselves a favour? I suggest you step outside of your box and spend more time working with people who speak little to none of the languages you understand. And I suggest the first thing they learn about Linux is enough English. Many did. Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 09:46:11AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: > On Monday 11 June 2007 02:56, Paul Mundt wrote: > > That's a ridiculous statement. Non-native language abilities and > > technical competence have very little to do with each other. People have > > to understand the code and figure out what it is that they want to > > change. As long as this is done cleanly and the intent is obvious, > > language doesn't even factor in beyond the Signed-off-by tag. Explanation > > is necessary from time to time, but it really depends on the area in > > which someone is working. If it's a complicated and involved change, then > > of course it takes a bit more effort on both sides, but that doesn't > > invalidate the importance or necessity of the work. > > Point me to one person who doesn't know English at all > and who has successfully participated in l-k devel. > There are entire architectures that have been merged and maintained by folks who speak little to no english, for example. I'll let you figure out which ones. Many drivers and such, too. Perhaps you've simply never noticed since these folks tend not to be terribly vocal. This is not to say that there aren't communication barriers, but things do gradually get done in any case. > I'm not saying that non-English should banned or something. > In Kconfig it can even make sense. A section on kernel.org > where people can put translations is also a good idea. > I can still think that it is almost useless activity, > but who knows, maybe I'm wrong. > > Just not Documentation//* thing and no i18n of printks. Documentation/* is in enough disarray as it is, I think it's worth having more people looking at it and verifying that things are up to date and accurate, regardless of what language they happen to be working in. Kconfig localization (is is that time of year already?) is another problem entirely, and one that doesn't have a lot of chance of being kept up to date. Documentation/* on the other hand isn't terribly prone to heavy modification, I'd wager most people would rather be lining up to voluntarily rewrite the floppy driver than even accidentally cd in to Documentation/. In any event, the rate of change is far lower, and people at least have a chance of keeping translations updated. Documentation is one area where we simply suck, the more people working on it, the better. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Monday 11 June 2007 02:56, Paul Mundt wrote: > On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: > > On Sunday 10 June 2007 20:58, Rene Herman wrote: > > > All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed > > > percentage of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and > > > shiny, sure, stuff will get translated but in no time at all it'll > > > become a fragmented mess which nobody ever feels right about removing > > > because that would be anti-social to all those poor non-english > > > speaking kernel hackers out there. > > > > I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have > > to know English in order to participate in l-k development. > > That's a ridiculous statement. Non-native language abilities and > technical competence have very little to do with each other. People have > to understand the code and figure out what it is that they want to > change. As long as this is done cleanly and the intent is obvious, > language doesn't even factor in beyond the Signed-off-by tag. Explanation > is necessary from time to time, but it really depends on the area in > which someone is working. If it's a complicated and involved change, then > of course it takes a bit more effort on both sides, but that doesn't > invalidate the importance or necessity of the work. Point me to one person who doesn't know English at all and who has successfully participated in l-k devel. I'm not saying that non-English should banned or something. In Kconfig it can even make sense. A section on kernel.org where people can put translations is also a good idea. I can still think that it is almost useless activity, but who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Just not Documentation//* thing and no i18n of printks. -- vda - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 07:52:28PM +0200, Sam Ravnborg wrote: > On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 09:22:21AM -0700, Greg KH wrote: > > > Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I > > > personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the > > > tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the > > > authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many > > > contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a > > > seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated > > > according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org > > > people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer > > > to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. > > > > No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have > > the space :) > > We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then > the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. > > I advocated that they should stay out back then. > But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles > having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. > > Any opinion about the .po files? I have no objection for them to be around in the tree, it might help out some users who want to build their own kernels, and allow the -stable kernels to catch up on the translations. So I would encourage their addition, if possible. thanks, greg 'not everyone speaks english' k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 07:52:28PM +0200, Sam Ravnborg wrote: On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 09:22:21AM -0700, Greg KH wrote: Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have the space :) We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? I have no objection for them to be around in the tree, it might help out some users who want to build their own kernels, and allow the -stable kernels to catch up on the translations. So I would encourage their addition, if possible. thanks, greg 'not everyone speaks english' k-h - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Monday 11 June 2007 02:56, Paul Mundt wrote: On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: On Sunday 10 June 2007 20:58, Rene Herman wrote: All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed percentage of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and shiny, sure, stuff will get translated but in no time at all it'll become a fragmented mess which nobody ever feels right about removing because that would be anti-social to all those poor non-english speaking kernel hackers out there. I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. That's a ridiculous statement. Non-native language abilities and technical competence have very little to do with each other. People have to understand the code and figure out what it is that they want to change. As long as this is done cleanly and the intent is obvious, language doesn't even factor in beyond the Signed-off-by tag. Explanation is necessary from time to time, but it really depends on the area in which someone is working. If it's a complicated and involved change, then of course it takes a bit more effort on both sides, but that doesn't invalidate the importance or necessity of the work. Point me to one person who doesn't know English at all and who has successfully participated in l-k devel. I'm not saying that non-English should banned or something. In Kconfig it can even make sense. A section on kernel.org where people can put translations is also a good idea. I can still think that it is almost useless activity, but who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Just not Documentation/lang/* thing and no i18n of printks. -- vda - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 09:46:11AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: On Monday 11 June 2007 02:56, Paul Mundt wrote: That's a ridiculous statement. Non-native language abilities and technical competence have very little to do with each other. People have to understand the code and figure out what it is that they want to change. As long as this is done cleanly and the intent is obvious, language doesn't even factor in beyond the Signed-off-by tag. Explanation is necessary from time to time, but it really depends on the area in which someone is working. If it's a complicated and involved change, then of course it takes a bit more effort on both sides, but that doesn't invalidate the importance or necessity of the work. Point me to one person who doesn't know English at all and who has successfully participated in l-k devel. There are entire architectures that have been merged and maintained by folks who speak little to no english, for example. I'll let you figure out which ones. Many drivers and such, too. Perhaps you've simply never noticed since these folks tend not to be terribly vocal. This is not to say that there aren't communication barriers, but things do gradually get done in any case. I'm not saying that non-English should banned or something. In Kconfig it can even make sense. A section on kernel.org where people can put translations is also a good idea. I can still think that it is almost useless activity, but who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Just not Documentation/lang/* thing and no i18n of printks. Documentation/* is in enough disarray as it is, I think it's worth having more people looking at it and verifying that things are up to date and accurate, regardless of what language they happen to be working in. Kconfig localization (is is that time of year already?) is another problem entirely, and one that doesn't have a lot of chance of being kept up to date. Documentation/* on the other hand isn't terribly prone to heavy modification, I'd wager most people would rather be lining up to voluntarily rewrite the floppy driver than even accidentally cd in to Documentation/. In any event, the rate of change is far lower, and people at least have a chance of keeping translations updated. Documentation is one area where we simply suck, the more people working on it, the better. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On 06/11/2007 02:56 AM, Paul Mundt wrote: On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. That's a ridiculous statement. Non-native language abilities and technical competence have very little to do with each other. That sounds nice maybe but it's actually simply false. Natural language abilities and computer language abilities are very much related. You also seem to ignore the other point that you don't _want_ to have significant groups of people go off in different directions and not communicate other than by a few selected interpreters. Here, as in most situations, communication is something to promote, not something you want to make easier to avoid. I see your linux-sh address which seems to point embedded-wise? Really need even better examples of significant groups of developers going off in different directions, not communicating and not doing Linux or themselves a favour? I suggest you step outside of your box and spend more time working with people who speak little to none of the languages you understand. And I suggest the first thing they learn about Linux is enough English. Many did. Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On 06/11/2007 02:14 AM, Adrian Bunk wrote: On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. They should be able to read _and_ reply_ to lkml posts, and read and understnd code _and_ comments_. ... Kconfig is different since the target audience and the majority of users are not kernel developers. Well, hardly. The percentages quoted vary wildly with the point someone is trying to make but user users are expected to just use whatever their distribution provided them with meaning the Kconfig target audience is developers and power users. Enough of the latter around certainly but I have no indication whatsoever that a significant number of them is lost in the water without Kconfig translations either. Internationalization is not very useful, has great potential to introduce even more chronically bit-rotting content and is finally counter-productive in maintaining a non-forking single community, at least in so far as it is today. One should spit on internationalization. Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: > On Sunday 10 June 2007 20:58, Rene Herman wrote: > > All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed > > percentage of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and > > shiny, sure, stuff will get translated but in no time at all it'll > > become a fragmented mess which nobody ever feels right about removing > > because that would be anti-social to all those poor non-english > > speaking kernel hackers out there. > > I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have > to know English in order to participate in l-k development. That's a ridiculous statement. Non-native language abilities and technical competence have very little to do with each other. People have to understand the code and figure out what it is that they want to change. As long as this is done cleanly and the intent is obvious, language doesn't even factor in beyond the Signed-off-by tag. Explanation is necessary from time to time, but it really depends on the area in which someone is working. If it's a complicated and involved change, then of course it takes a bit more effort on both sides, but that doesn't invalidate the importance or necessity of the work. > They should be able to read _and_ reply_ to lkml posts, > and read and understnd code _and_ comments_. > > Those who cannot participate in development because they don't > know English, won't get much help from some bits of semi-obsolete > Documentation/* being available. Ok, they will read it, then what? > How they are supposed to read the code? Write email? etc... > It's arguable whether those that know English well derive any benefit from semi-obsolete Documentation/* files either. One could speculate that not being able to read semi-obsolete documentation and being forced to read the code is actually more productive ;-) Besides, Kconfig localization is more for the end users than the developers anyways. I certainly don't see any problem with this, the more people eyeballing the documentation, the easier it is to find out areas where we're lacking or that are simply wrong. > There is only one practical solution: learn the language. > I suggest you step outside of your box and spend more time working with people who speak little to none of the languages you understand. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 07:52:28PM +0200, Sam Ravnborg wrote: > On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 09:22:21AM -0700, Greg KH wrote: > > > Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I > > > personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the > > > tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the > > > authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many > > > contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a > > > seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated > > > according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org > > > people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer > > > to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. > > > > No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have > > the space :) > > We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then > the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. > > I advocated that they should stay out back then. > But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles > having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. > > Any opinion about the .po files? Why not (if there are people willing to do the translation work). The only thing I consider important is that this doesn't imply any kind of string freeze at some time prior to a release (but .po updates through -stable shouldn't be a problem). > Sam cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 09:41:38PM +0200, Diego Calleja wrote: > El Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:52:28 +0200, Sam Ravnborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > > I advocated that they should stay out back then. > > But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles > > having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. > > > > Any opinion about the .po files? > > These days the configuration menus are not something that users need to > read, they're more like a developer tool. IMO there's not much value in it, > because the people who read it already know english most of the times. The majority of Kconfig users are _not_ kernel developers. There are many different reasons why people compile their own kernel, and "sysadmin who knows his hardware and the filesystems of his disks" is really sufficient for compiling your own kernel. Whether non-English Kconfig texts are important might be a question, but if there are people doing the translation work there's no problem with it. cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: > On Sunday 10 June 2007 20:58, Rene Herman wrote: > > All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed > > percentage > > of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and shiny, sure, stuff > > will > > get translated but in no time at all it'll become a fragmented mess which > > nobody ever feels right about removing because that would be anti-social to > > all those poor non-english speaking kernel hackers out there. > > I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have > to know English in order to participate in l-k development. > They should be able to read _and_ reply_ to lkml posts, > and read and understnd code _and_ comments_. >... Kconfig is different since the target audience and the majority of users are not kernel developers. > vda cu Adrian -- "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. "Only a promise," Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sunday 10 June 2007 20:58, Rene Herman wrote: > All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed percentage > of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and shiny, sure, stuff will > get translated but in no time at all it'll become a fragmented mess which > nobody ever feels right about removing because that would be anti-social to > all those poor non-english speaking kernel hackers out there. I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. They should be able to read _and_ reply_ to lkml posts, and read and understnd code _and_ comments_. Those who cannot participate in development because they don't know English, won't get much help from some bits of semi-obsolete Documentation/* being available. Ok, they will read it, then what? How they are supposed to read the code? Write email? etc... There is only one practical solution: learn the language. It's not about *English* per se. It just happened so historically that CS has originated in English speaking countries. BTW, I learned it by reading sci-fi (Asimov's Foundation was the first thing), and then lkml. :) -- vda - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 08:35:03PM +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote: > > On Jun 10 2007 19:52, Sam Ravnborg wrote: > >> > Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I > >> > personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the > >> > tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the > >> > authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many > >> > contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a > >> > seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated > >> > according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org > >> > people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer > >> > to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. > >> > >> No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have > >> the space :) > > > >We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then > >the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. > > > >I advocated that they should stay out back then. > >But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles > >having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. > > > >Any opinion about the .po files? > > Like with translated doc, they might get out of date easily. Well, if for each document you translate, you record what revision you translated (git hash or kernel release), it's fairly easy to generate diffs and know what changes need to be translated. I don't think keeping the translations of Documentation/ in the kernel tree eases this significantly though. -- Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On 06/10/2007 08:58 PM, Rene Herman wrote: RESIST! UNITE! Stick a ";-)" on that, by the way... Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
El Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:52:28 +0200, Sam Ravnborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > I advocated that they should stay out back then. > But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles > having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. > > Any opinion about the .po files? These days the configuration menus are not something that users need to read, they're more like a developer tool. IMO there's not much value in it, because the people who read it already know english most of the times. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 08:35:03PM +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote: > >> No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have > >> the space :) > > > >We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then > >the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. > > > >I advocated that they should stay out back then. > >But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles > >having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. > > > >Any opinion about the .po files? > > Like with translated doc, they might get out of date easily. The difference here is that with .po files we have tools to report the actual translation status. And having the .po files included in the source makes it much easier to use the latest versions. The Linux Kernel Translation Project http://tlktp.sourceforge.net/ have nice statisitcs for the different translations. Italian is 100% followed by Hungarian with almost 70%. We have a number of dedicated people, so why not make the works available to more users by including it in the kernel. I trust the tlktp people enough that we will not see patches for the language with less than ~5% translated strings. I would assume that Japanese soon get higher btw - there is quite a number of people listed as translators. Sam - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On 06/10/2007 07:52 PM, Sam Ravnborg wrote: We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? From me, the same opinion as about any and all internationalized content in the tree -- please don't. All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed percentage of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and shiny, sure, stuff will get translated but in no time at all it'll become a fragmented mess which nobody ever feels right about removing because that would be anti-social to all those poor non-english speaking kernel hackers out there. In current effect, English is the language of the linux kernel. Its messages are in English, most or all of the useful information available on it is in English, its developers communicate in (some semblance of) English... More importantly even than any current practical situation though it seems this should also be how people should try to keep things. I'm not a native English speaker myself but English serves well as a common language among all us non-native speakers. I really do not so much want to have to learn more languages well enough to be able to understand technical discussions about operating system kernels in them still. America is obviously historically (for a sufficiently short value of history) the main supplier/originator of computer software and as such, using English is often seen as something that needs to be fixed upon expansion but this is wrong. Please do not for a minute believe that internationalization is doing anyone a favour. I know all about constantly translating computer terminology back and forth when a non-computer savvy friend asks something in the context of his/her Dutch language copy of Windows. Internationalization is sometimes _neccessary_ (those same windows desktops) simply because the result needs to be used by people that you don't want to have to expect to be able to use English (because you'd limit your market) and things like adopting a character set that allows people to write down their names is obviously wonderful but generally internationalization only fragments. RESIST! UNITE! Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Jun 10 2007 19:52, Sam Ravnborg wrote: >> > Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I >> > personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the >> > tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the >> > authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many >> > contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a >> > seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated >> > according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org >> > people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer >> > to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. >> >> No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have >> the space :) > >We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then >the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. > >I advocated that they should stay out back then. >But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles >having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. > >Any opinion about the .po files? Like with translated doc, they might get out of date easily. Jan -- - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 09:22:21AM -0700, Greg KH wrote: > > Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I > > personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the > > tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the > > authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many > > contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a > > seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated > > according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org > > people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer > > to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. > > No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have > the space :) We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? Sam - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 09:22:21AM -0700, Greg KH wrote: Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have the space :) We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? Sam - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Jun 10 2007 19:52, Sam Ravnborg wrote: Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have the space :) We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? Like with translated doc, they might get out of date easily. Jan -- - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On 06/10/2007 07:52 PM, Sam Ravnborg wrote: We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? From me, the same opinion as about any and all internationalized content in the tree -- please don't. All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed percentage of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and shiny, sure, stuff will get translated but in no time at all it'll become a fragmented mess which nobody ever feels right about removing because that would be anti-social to all those poor non-english speaking kernel hackers out there. In current effect, English is the language of the linux kernel. Its messages are in English, most or all of the useful information available on it is in English, its developers communicate in (some semblance of) English... More importantly even than any current practical situation though it seems this should also be how people should try to keep things. I'm not a native English speaker myself but English serves well as a common language among all us non-native speakers. I really do not so much want to have to learn more languages well enough to be able to understand technical discussions about operating system kernels in them still. America is obviously historically (for a sufficiently short value of history) the main supplier/originator of computer software and as such, using English is often seen as something that needs to be fixed upon expansion but this is wrong. Please do not for a minute believe that internationalization is doing anyone a favour. I know all about constantly translating computer terminology back and forth when a non-computer savvy friend asks something in the context of his/her Dutch language copy of Windows. Internationalization is sometimes _neccessary_ (those same windows desktops) simply because the result needs to be used by people that you don't want to have to expect to be able to use English (because you'd limit your market) and things like adopting a character set that allows people to write down their names is obviously wonderful but generally internationalization only fragments. RESIST! UNITE! Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 08:35:03PM +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote: No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have the space :) We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? Like with translated doc, they might get out of date easily. The difference here is that with .po files we have tools to report the actual translation status. And having the .po files included in the source makes it much easier to use the latest versions. The Linux Kernel Translation Project http://tlktp.sourceforge.net/ have nice statisitcs for the different translations. Italian is 100% followed by Hungarian with almost 70%. We have a number of dedicated people, so why not make the works available to more users by including it in the kernel. I trust the tlktp people enough that we will not see patches for the language with less than ~5% translated strings. I would assume that Japanese soon get higher btw - there is quite a number of people listed as translators. Sam - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
El Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:52:28 +0200, Sam Ravnborg [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? These days the configuration menus are not something that users need to read, they're more like a developer tool. IMO there's not much value in it, because the people who read it already know english most of the times. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On 06/10/2007 08:58 PM, Rene Herman wrote: RESIST! UNITE! Stick a ;-) on that, by the way... Rene. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 08:35:03PM +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote: On Jun 10 2007 19:52, Sam Ravnborg wrote: Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have the space :) We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? Like with translated doc, they might get out of date easily. Well, if for each document you translate, you record what revision you translated (git hash or kernel release), it's fairly easy to generate diffs and know what changes need to be translated. I don't think keeping the translations of Documentation/ in the kernel tree eases this significantly though. -- Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sunday 10 June 2007 20:58, Rene Herman wrote: All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed percentage of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and shiny, sure, stuff will get translated but in no time at all it'll become a fragmented mess which nobody ever feels right about removing because that would be anti-social to all those poor non-english speaking kernel hackers out there. I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. They should be able to read _and_ reply_ to lkml posts, and read and understnd code _and_ comments_. Those who cannot participate in development because they don't know English, won't get much help from some bits of semi-obsolete Documentation/* being available. Ok, they will read it, then what? How they are supposed to read the code? Write email? etc... There is only one practical solution: learn the language. It's not about *English* per se. It just happened so historically that CS has originated in English speaking countries. BTW, I learned it by reading sci-fi (Asimov's Foundation was the first thing), and then lkml. :) -- vda - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: On Sunday 10 June 2007 20:58, Rene Herman wrote: All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed percentage of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and shiny, sure, stuff will get translated but in no time at all it'll become a fragmented mess which nobody ever feels right about removing because that would be anti-social to all those poor non-english speaking kernel hackers out there. I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. They should be able to read _and_ reply_ to lkml posts, and read and understnd code _and_ comments_. ... Kconfig is different since the target audience and the majority of users are not kernel developers. vda cu Adrian -- Is there not promise of rain? Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. Only a promise, Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 09:41:38PM +0200, Diego Calleja wrote: El Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:52:28 +0200, Sam Ravnborg [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? These days the configuration menus are not something that users need to read, they're more like a developer tool. IMO there's not much value in it, because the people who read it already know english most of the times. The majority of Kconfig users are _not_ kernel developers. There are many different reasons why people compile their own kernel, and sysadmin who knows his hardware and the filesystems of his disks is really sufficient for compiling your own kernel. Whether non-English Kconfig texts are important might be a question, but if there are people doing the translation work there's no problem with it. cu Adrian -- Is there not promise of rain? Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. Only a promise, Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 07:52:28PM +0200, Sam Ravnborg wrote: On Sun, Jun 10, 2007 at 09:22:21AM -0700, Greg KH wrote: Since the common language of most kernel contributors is english I personally feel that we should stick to just that one language in the tree and then perhaps keep translations on a website somewhere. So the authoritative docs stay in the tree, in english, so that as many contributors as possible can read and update them. It would then be a seperate project to generate translations and keep them updated according to what's in the tree. Perhaps we could get the kernel.org people to create an official space for that and then place a pointer to that site in Documentation/ somewhere. No, I think the translated files should be in the tree proper, we have the space :) We once discussed about .po files for kconfig and back then the conclusion was not to keep them in the kernel tree. I advocated that they should stay out back then. But on the other hand I do not see it causing much troubles having scripts/kconfig/po/da.po etc araound. Any opinion about the .po files? Why not (if there are people willing to do the translation work). The only thing I consider important is that this doesn't imply any kind of string freeze at some time prior to a release (but .po updates through -stable shouldn't be a problem). Sam cu Adrian -- Is there not promise of rain? Ling Tan asked suddenly out of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days. Only a promise, Lao Er said. Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: kconfig .po files in kernel tree? [Was: Documentation/HOWTO translated into Japanese]
On Mon, Jun 11, 2007 at 01:59:00AM +0200, Denis Vlasenko wrote: On Sunday 10 June 2007 20:58, Rene Herman wrote: All that stuff only serves to multiply the speed at which a fixed percentage of content obsoletes itself. When it's still new and shiny, sure, stuff will get translated but in no time at all it'll become a fragmented mess which nobody ever feels right about removing because that would be anti-social to all those poor non-english speaking kernel hackers out there. I agree. i18n efforts won't help one iota because people just have to know English in order to participate in l-k development. That's a ridiculous statement. Non-native language abilities and technical competence have very little to do with each other. People have to understand the code and figure out what it is that they want to change. As long as this is done cleanly and the intent is obvious, language doesn't even factor in beyond the Signed-off-by tag. Explanation is necessary from time to time, but it really depends on the area in which someone is working. If it's a complicated and involved change, then of course it takes a bit more effort on both sides, but that doesn't invalidate the importance or necessity of the work. They should be able to read _and_ reply_ to lkml posts, and read and understnd code _and_ comments_. Those who cannot participate in development because they don't know English, won't get much help from some bits of semi-obsolete Documentation/* being available. Ok, they will read it, then what? How they are supposed to read the code? Write email? etc... It's arguable whether those that know English well derive any benefit from semi-obsolete Documentation/* files either. One could speculate that not being able to read semi-obsolete documentation and being forced to read the code is actually more productive ;-) Besides, Kconfig localization is more for the end users than the developers anyways. I certainly don't see any problem with this, the more people eyeballing the documentation, the easier it is to find out areas where we're lacking or that are simply wrong. There is only one practical solution: learn the language. I suggest you step outside of your box and spend more time working with people who speak little to none of the languages you understand. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
