Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
Hi! > >>download & install alsalib > >>download & install alsautils > >>create 1007 nodes in /dev > > I really hope you meant permission 1007 nodes, not 1007 nodes! I'm > checking right now, and if the latter is the case, I'm going to > uninstall alsa, even if that means my computer will forever be silent, > it will be silent in protest. I meant 1007 nodes... well, not literaly. For sound to work on my system, I seem to need at least crw-r--r-- 1 root root 116, 0 Mar 24 2005 controlC0 crw-r--r-- 1 root root 116, 32 Mar 24 2005 controlC1 crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 4 Feb 1 16:33 hwC0D0 crw-r--r-- 1 root root 116, 36 Mar 24 2005 hwC1D0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 8 Feb 1 16:33 midiC0D0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 24 Feb 1 16:33 pcmC0D0c crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 16 Feb 1 16:33 pcmC0D0p crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 48 Feb 1 16:34 pcmC1D0p crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 1 Feb 1 16:33 seq crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 33 Feb 1 16:33 timer ...fact that minor numbers are not allocated in Doc*/devices.txt does not help, either. Pavel -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
Pavel Machek wrote: download & install alsalib download & install alsautils create 1007 nodes in /dev I really hope you meant permission 1007 nodes, not 1007 nodes! I'm checking right now, and if the latter is the case, I'm going to uninstall alsa, even if that means my computer will forever be silent, it will be silent in protest. (Just for the record, I should note that networking is misdesigned in similar way; that's why we have eth0 instead of /dev/eth0, and need special tools to rename network interface. But this mistake dates to BSD days or something, so we got used to it... and at least you do not need to keep libnetwork up to date to keep your net devices working. So networking provides _ugly_ hardware abstraction, but it provides it). I might add it got only worse with wireless support, now you can not configure card without both ifconfig and iwconfig, so not only is the API diverging, the userspace tools to manage it are doing so as well. Zach - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
Hi! > So... in dsp, if I wanted to record sound, I did > > cat /dev/dsp > /tmp/foo; cat /tmp/foo > /dev/dsp > > If that worked, I had usable sound system, and if it broke, I knew it > is kernel fault. > > With alsa it is > > download & install alsalib > download & install alsautils > create 1007 nodes in /dev > launch alsamixer, figure out what to do from inadequate descriptions > launch arecord, try to guess some suitable options > launch aplay, try to guess some options > > ...if it does not work, it may be a kernel problem or userspace > problem; I'm left with debugging both. That makes alsa pretty much > untestable. (Just for the record, I should note that networking is misdesigned in similar way; that's why we have eth0 instead of /dev/eth0, and need special tools to rename network interface. But this mistake dates to BSD days or something, so we got used to it... and at least you do not need to keep libnetwork up to date to keep your net devices working. So networking provides _ugly_ hardware abstraction, but it provides it). Pavel -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
Hi! > > > >I think the sound example to the right really shows it. > > > >/dev/dsp has a > > > >consistent ABI on a ton of systems. The API below it, > > > >varies. Linux got > > > >file_operations and ALSA. Solaris/BSD may have its > > > >vnode-and-so-on-functions and some sort of OSS. > > > > > > I think this is a poor example as applications lose a > > > lot of > > > functionality (multiple stream mixing, software volume > > > control, etc) > > > by going through the legacy /dev/dsp interface vs. using > > > native ALSA. > > > > OTOH /dev/dsp is nice, clean, unixy interface, while alsa creates ugly > > ABI you should not even use unless you are libalsa. ouch. > > Pavel, calm down. I'm pretty calm, thank you. > World is not perfect and there are always probes to > optimize things. We use standard file operations - open/close/ioctl/mmap, > too. Unfortunately AlSA _does not_ provide hardware abstraction. Instead, it relies on libalsa in userland to do the kernel work. That means that testing sound is ugly. Plus, it made some "interesting choices" with naming, basically inventing parallel system to /dev/. (Why do I have to specify "card 0" number in xmms, and WTF it means? Why can't alsa use device paths as rest of sane world?) So... in dsp, if I wanted to record sound, I did cat /dev/dsp > /tmp/foo; cat /tmp/foo > /dev/dsp If that worked, I had usable sound system, and if it broke, I knew it is kernel fault. With alsa it is download & install alsalib download & install alsautils create 1007 nodes in /dev launch alsamixer, figure out what to do from inadequate descriptions launch arecord, try to guess some suitable options launch aplay, try to guess some options ...if it does not work, it may be a kernel problem or userspace problem; I'm left with debugging both. That makes alsa pretty much untestable. (For _my_ usage, something like "alsatest" that is self-contained, preferably statically linked, and just tests microphone and sound output would be nice. But that does not fix the fact that alsa is broken by design). Pavel -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
Hi! I think the sound example to the right really shows it. /dev/dsp has a consistent ABI on a ton of systems. The API below it, varies. Linux got file_operations and ALSA. Solaris/BSD may have its vnode-and-so-on-functions and some sort of OSS. I think this is a poor example as applications lose a lot of functionality (multiple stream mixing, software volume control, etc) by going through the legacy /dev/dsp interface vs. using native ALSA. OTOH /dev/dsp is nice, clean, unixy interface, while alsa creates ugly ABI you should not even use unless you are libalsa. ouch. Pavel, calm down. I'm pretty calm, thank you. World is not perfect and there are always probes to optimize things. We use standard file operations - open/close/ioctl/mmap, too. Unfortunately AlSA _does not_ provide hardware abstraction. Instead, it relies on libalsa in userland to do the kernel work. That means that testing sound is ugly. Plus, it made some interesting choices with naming, basically inventing parallel system to /dev/. (Why do I have to specify card 0 number in xmms, and WTF it means? Why can't alsa use device paths as rest of sane world?) So... in dsp, if I wanted to record sound, I did cat /dev/dsp /tmp/foo; cat /tmp/foo /dev/dsp If that worked, I had usable sound system, and if it broke, I knew it is kernel fault. With alsa it is download install alsalib download install alsautils create 1007 nodes in /dev launch alsamixer, figure out what to do from inadequate descriptions launch arecord, try to guess some suitable options launch aplay, try to guess some options ...if it does not work, it may be a kernel problem or userspace problem; I'm left with debugging both. That makes alsa pretty much untestable. (For _my_ usage, something like alsatest that is self-contained, preferably statically linked, and just tests microphone and sound output would be nice. But that does not fix the fact that alsa is broken by design). Pavel -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
Hi! So... in dsp, if I wanted to record sound, I did cat /dev/dsp /tmp/foo; cat /tmp/foo /dev/dsp If that worked, I had usable sound system, and if it broke, I knew it is kernel fault. With alsa it is download install alsalib download install alsautils create 1007 nodes in /dev launch alsamixer, figure out what to do from inadequate descriptions launch arecord, try to guess some suitable options launch aplay, try to guess some options ...if it does not work, it may be a kernel problem or userspace problem; I'm left with debugging both. That makes alsa pretty much untestable. (Just for the record, I should note that networking is misdesigned in similar way; that's why we have eth0 instead of /dev/eth0, and need special tools to rename network interface. But this mistake dates to BSD days or something, so we got used to it... and at least you do not need to keep libnetwork up to date to keep your net devices working. So networking provides _ugly_ hardware abstraction, but it provides it). Pavel -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
Pavel Machek wrote: download install alsalib download install alsautils create 1007 nodes in /dev I really hope you meant permission 1007 nodes, not 1007 nodes! I'm checking right now, and if the latter is the case, I'm going to uninstall alsa, even if that means my computer will forever be silent, it will be silent in protest. (Just for the record, I should note that networking is misdesigned in similar way; that's why we have eth0 instead of /dev/eth0, and need special tools to rename network interface. But this mistake dates to BSD days or something, so we got used to it... and at least you do not need to keep libnetwork up to date to keep your net devices working. So networking provides _ugly_ hardware abstraction, but it provides it). I might add it got only worse with wireless support, now you can not configure card without both ifconfig and iwconfig, so not only is the API diverging, the userspace tools to manage it are doing so as well. Zach - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
Hi! download install alsalib download install alsautils create 1007 nodes in /dev I really hope you meant permission 1007 nodes, not 1007 nodes! I'm checking right now, and if the latter is the case, I'm going to uninstall alsa, even if that means my computer will forever be silent, it will be silent in protest. I meant 1007 nodes... well, not literaly. For sound to work on my system, I seem to need at least crw-r--r-- 1 root root 116, 0 Mar 24 2005 controlC0 crw-r--r-- 1 root root 116, 32 Mar 24 2005 controlC1 crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 4 Feb 1 16:33 hwC0D0 crw-r--r-- 1 root root 116, 36 Mar 24 2005 hwC1D0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 8 Feb 1 16:33 midiC0D0 crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 24 Feb 1 16:33 pcmC0D0c crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 16 Feb 1 16:33 pcmC0D0p crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 48 Feb 1 16:34 pcmC1D0p crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 1 Feb 1 16:33 seq crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 116, 33 Feb 1 16:33 timer ...fact that minor numbers are not allocated in Doc*/devices.txt does not help, either. Pavel -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Pavel Machek wrote: > Hi! > > > >I think the sound example to the right really shows it. > > >/dev/dsp has a > > >consistent ABI on a ton of systems. The API below it, > > >varies. Linux got > > >file_operations and ALSA. Solaris/BSD may have its > > >vnode-and-so-on-functions and some sort of OSS. > > > > I think this is a poor example as applications lose a > > lot of > > functionality (multiple stream mixing, software volume > > control, etc) > > by going through the legacy /dev/dsp interface vs. using > > native ALSA. > > OTOH /dev/dsp is nice, clean, unixy interface, while alsa creates ugly > ABI you should not even use unless you are libalsa. ouch. Pavel, calm down. World is not perfect and there are always probes to optimize things. We use standard file operations - open/close/ioctl/mmap, too. Jaroslav - Jaroslav Kysela <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer ALSA Project, SUSE Labs - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Re: alsa was Re: ABI coupling to hypervisors via CONFIG_PARAVIRT
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Pavel Machek wrote: Hi! I think the sound example to the right really shows it. /dev/dsp has a consistent ABI on a ton of systems. The API below it, varies. Linux got file_operations and ALSA. Solaris/BSD may have its vnode-and-so-on-functions and some sort of OSS. I think this is a poor example as applications lose a lot of functionality (multiple stream mixing, software volume control, etc) by going through the legacy /dev/dsp interface vs. using native ALSA. OTOH /dev/dsp is nice, clean, unixy interface, while alsa creates ugly ABI you should not even use unless you are libalsa. ouch. Pavel, calm down. World is not perfect and there are always probes to optimize things. We use standard file operations - open/close/ioctl/mmap, too. Jaroslav - Jaroslav Kysela [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer ALSA Project, SUSE Labs - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-kernel in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
