Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Christoph Pfister wrote: > Sorry for the late answer, No worries, I've been keeping busy by discovering yet more info. Discovering a site where not only does everyone know more than me and where all the info I could possibly want is there for the taking, but where I feel more unworthy than usual. So, while I still have yet to mangle the machine-generated output, I did observe the following: It seems that the info for Hansestadt Bremen (Radio Bremen) can be merged into that for Niedersachsen, as the presence of an RB multiplex in the latter disturbed me, until I noted that apparently all the (Bundesland) Bremen frequencies are also used in Bremerhaven. So, one less file to maintain. Not only is Hansestadt Hamburg migrating away from the VHF Band III allocation which kicked off this too-long-running thread, but at some yet unspecified time this year (2009), most if not all of the remaining Band III DVB-T transmitters will also relocate. This affects primarily Bayern, but also a few other sites (FFM, Berlin...) I don't know if the frequencies I've read are confirmed, or mere speculation; further, I know no fixed planned dates. But more importantly, I don't know if it's worth it for me to bother to announce known and confirmed changes, or if I should relax and let the official channels publish the info to be massaged into scanfiles. Any residents who might happen to read the info I post are almost certain to have already been made aware of any such changes through other media... My claim that the information for each Bundesland was not likely to change, could be an untruth. I've seen mention of additional frequency changes that were unknown to me, in addition to vacating VHF DVB-T frequencies to make available more DAB/DMB/DVB-T2 multiplexes nationally and regionally. Apparently Bundesland B-W will not only start two more ARD/SWR multiplexes in Bad Mergentheim at a lower power than the other transmitter sites, but will also start a handful of other lower power sort-of-filler sites, apparently not coordinated with ZDF. (May be R-P; my geography is poor). And there should also be some sort of pilot or comparable introduction of a Private MUX in Stuttgart, quite possibly incompatible with existing practice throughout Germany (may be use of MPEG-4 video, or perhaps DVB-T2, or maybe encryption)... > case you need to mark the individual transmitters). Actually I don't > care about the arrangement, as long as there are machine-implementable > rules for the update. Of course, first of all, I need to get off my lazy butt and actually start sorting the info you've compiled into something that will help me get an overview. Say, for Bayern, which, from the Bayerischer Rundfunk perspective, is divided into North (Franken) and South (also with good beer); to which are added a few Privates in scattered areas, partly using the same frequencies, though widely spaced... As a tradeoff, it could possibly be that some Bundesland files could be merged into a super-region -- notably the NDR and mdr regions, though this is pure speculation as I haven't rearranged any files to imbed them in my brain, and is only suggested at by the Bremen/Bremerhaven union. Talk is cheap. > >> They shouldn't be too excessive, > > I meant the number of transmitters, not the size of the file. Ah, fine, fine. As a comparison, I'll offer Helvetia. The last list of DVB-T transmitters in service I bothered to download includes some 25 pages, each with around 20 or so listed sites, for that small land. No way would I consider attempting to list these -- or even those for a particular language region or SFN part thereof, in a scanfile. > > I just updated overnight, and de-Leipzig no longer exists! > > Aieee!@ Good thing I made a backup copy of that directory > > before I updated > > hg has a good memory as well :) At my age, it's hard to unlearn the convenience of such advanced tools as `grep' and `less' on simple foo,v text files (and Attic directories) to trace a file through time. However, you're right -- I do believe that I had problems with `git' on renamed or obsolete files, and subversion appears hopeless for anything but remaining up-to-date offline, though I have enough SOCKS and https problems with that, so that I'm no longer bothered... Like they say, I learn something new every day. Pity that most days it's the same thing I learned on several previous occasions, when not each day the past week... Anyway, let this be a fore-warning that you will be likely to need to update the files for various Laender a few times this year to keep up-to-date -- and that is not to include changes to MUX contents (renaming one ZDF digital channel, or changes in Private Muxen). So I'm off to the Bundesnetzagentur to see if I can get accurate info about upcoming changes and allocations, though I believe this source will be more suitable for planning, than to generate up-to-the-minute scanfiles. barry bouw
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Sorry for the late answer, 2009/1/29 BOUWSMA Barry : > On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Christoph Pfister wrote: > >> > I intend to take Christoph's files and massage them to add >> > bits of info, reviewing the info by hand, adding missing info > >> I don't mind adding those further bits. They need to be after the main >> block in the file, so that they don't get overwritten when those files >> are updated e.g. because of a new pdf. > > Hmm, actually, the first thing I was planning to do would be > to sort the entries by, for lack of a better term, provider. > That is, roughly, ARD multiplex when appropriate, ZDFmobil, > and regional Dritte multiplex everywhere, and in selected > regions, the remaining of the seven assigned GE06 allocations > or, in short, private providers. > > This is intended to provide an overview of these allocations > and the particular sites where they can be found, as well as > to handle the potential cases of frequency re-use in widely- > separated areas between two muxes with incompatible > parameters -- how often this will occur, I cannot say, as I > do not yet have a complete overview. > > This also can help the case of Tobi, who would prefer to use > two or three transmitter-site files, in that it would be easy > to see which frequencies would be ``local'' (shades of Royston > Vasey here, ``You'll Never Leave''). > > But I'm not sure how well this would work with a PDF-skimming > application... I see some possible ways to deal with this. The one I already mentioned is to separate the auto-generated and the manual part of a file. You could provide further information about the transmitters with comments in the second part of the file. If you want to relax the constraints, you could allow re-ordering of the transmitters either within the auto-generated section or within the whole file (in this case you need to mark the individual transmitters). Actually I don't care about the arrangement, as long as there are machine-implementable rules for the update. > And to Christoph, the danger, as I'm sure you know, of > pulling from a PDF or other single source of information, > is that those will not always be infallible, as we've seen > with a centre-frequency ending in `3' and paste-errors > for Hamburg between VHF and UHF parameters, as well as > absent info for the specific cases of the frequency change > in HH; or for BW, the change planned for Aalen plus the > to-be-in-service status of Bad Mergentheim. They've updated their file and the mapping between channel numbers and frequencies are fixed. So I consider it as a good base point (I need only some fractions of a second to generate updated files :), will commit them soon). The additions are up to people who know more about the story ... > I suppose I ought to write the originator of the PDF to > point out errors, but I suspect I'll get at best a reply > from TV Licensing saying they have no record of me in > their database and that as a non-resident, I have no > grounds for criticism of their offering and I should > stick to the programmes for which I pay the license fee. > (How else can I explain the years-running errors in > linking of teletext pages, that are again changed to > errors when those pages are relocated? ZDF, I'm looking > at you for failing to list your extended programme guide > following ttx page 380...) > > > > Oops, off-topic again. > > >> They shouldn't be too excessive, I meant the number of transmitters, not the size of the file. > Oh dear. The question is, how do I skate the thin line > between providing too much information, and failing to > include useful information? I guess, it depends on your > interest. If all you care about are just the frequencies, > and if I were to say to you `ERP' you would say, ``Oh, do > excuse yourself, you glutton'', then the existing files are > fine. But if you need transmitter sites and info to > help you orient whatever antenna you use, or are otherwise > technically inclined, then perhaps I do not provide enough > info... I'll have to rely on the feedback of others for > this, sad to say, being myself a technical geek... > > >> but for example I prefer if you add the Leipzip transponder >> to the de-whatever file instead of creating a new de-Leipzig file, so > > No worries, I'd add additional information to both the > appropriate Bundesland, as well as to de-Leipzig. Wait, > I just updated overnight, and de-Leipzig no longer exists! > Aieee!@ Good thing I made a backup copy of that directory > before I updated hg has a good memory as well :) >> this point shouldn't cause trouble to you. People don't have to scan >> every day, so it doesn't hurt if the scan time is increased by some > > Another thing that I don't include is the precise channel > layout, as this can churn over time -- particularly with the > private local (non-RTL/Pro7Sat1) multiplexes, as participants > drop out, go bankrupt, lose their licenses, or whatever; or > when a national or regional PSB
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Christoph Pfister wrote: > > I intend to take Christoph's files and massage them to add > > bits of info, reviewing the info by hand, adding missing info > I don't mind adding those further bits. They need to be after the main > block in the file, so that they don't get overwritten when those files > are updated e.g. because of a new pdf. Hmm, actually, the first thing I was planning to do would be to sort the entries by, for lack of a better term, provider. That is, roughly, ARD multiplex when appropriate, ZDFmobil, and regional Dritte multiplex everywhere, and in selected regions, the remaining of the seven assigned GE06 allocations or, in short, private providers. This is intended to provide an overview of these allocations and the particular sites where they can be found, as well as to handle the potential cases of frequency re-use in widely- separated areas between two muxes with incompatible parameters -- how often this will occur, I cannot say, as I do not yet have a complete overview. This also can help the case of Tobi, who would prefer to use two or three transmitter-site files, in that it would be easy to see which frequencies would be ``local'' (shades of Royston Vasey here, ``You'll Never Leave''). But I'm not sure how well this would work with a PDF-skimming application... As a concrete example, what I would create, would look like: # DVB-T Sachsen-Anhalt # Created from http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf # mercilessly mangled by hand, please file in /dev/null # T freq bw fec_hi fec_lo mod transmission-mode guard-interval hierarchy ### ZDFmobil multiplex; E22, E30, E31 T 48200 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE # CH22 Halle T 54600 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE # CH30 Brocken, Magdeburg, Wittenberg T 55400 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE # CH31 Dequede ### MDR-S-A multiplex; E34, E35, E38 T 57800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH34 Brocken, Dequede, Magdeburg T 58600 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH35 Halle T 61000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH38 Wittenberg ### ARD multiplex; E24, E29, E41 T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH24 Halle, Wittenberg T 53800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH29 Brocken, Magdeburg T 63400 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH41 Dequede (This also can make it somewhat more 80-column-friendly, for at least some regions) Tobi, if I may ask you -- I have seen use made of, for example, `K21' in german web fora to refer to the frequency spanned by 470 to 478MHz, while in swiss web fora, I often see `E21' for the same. I know that `K' can be both seen as `Kanal' (channel) and `Kabel' (cable), while I would guess that `E' refers to Europe, to differ the 8MHz spacing from that of, say, Australia or some other land whose name I can't remember but which sort of features prominently in parts of Thee Interweb. But in my experience, cable-TV frequencies by channel number do not always match over-the-air frequencies for that channel. Are you familiar with the `E' usage, can you tell me if there is an accepted international usage that covers all languages, as my attempts to search `e' in g00gle were not impressive... Thanks... Anyway, with the above, after I pull out a map, I can say, oh, this group of transmitters (probably) forms a SFN for ZDF, and that group covers mdr, and so on. That overview was one of the things I was trying to obtain earlier, and will be when I really work on Sachsen-Anhalt. And to Christoph, the danger, as I'm sure you know, of pulling from a PDF or other single source of information, is that those will not always be infallible, as we've seen with a centre-frequency ending in `3' and paste-errors for Hamburg between VHF and UHF parameters, as well as absent info for the specific cases of the frequency change in HH; or for BW, the change planned for Aalen plus the to-be-in-service status of Bad Mergentheim. I suppose I ought to write the originator of the PDF to point out errors, but I suspect I'll get at best a reply from TV Licensing saying they have no record of me in their database and that as a non-resident, I have no grounds for criticism of their offering and I should stick to the programmes for which I pay the license fee. (How else can I explain the years-running errors in linking of teletext pages, that are again changed to errors when those pages are relocated? ZDF, I'm looking at you for failing to list your extended programme guide following ttx page 380...) Oops, off-topic again. > They shouldn't be too excessive, Oh dear. The question is, how do I skate the thin line between providing too much information, and failing to include useful information? I guess, it depends on your interest. If all you care about are just the frequencies, and if I were to say to you `ERP' you would say, ``Oh, do excuse yourself, you glutton'', then the existing files are fine. But if you need transmitter sites and info to h
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
2009/1/27 BOUWSMA Barry : > I intend to take Christoph's files and massage them to add > bits of info, reviewing the info by hand, adding missing info > and generally trying to come up with something like the BW > file I created. > > But I want feedback about that file too, rather than to have > my changes be rejected after I've done the review and work. I don't mind adding those further bits. They need to be after the main block in the file, so that they don't get overwritten when those files are updated e.g. because of a new pdf. They shouldn't be too excessive, but for example I prefer if you add the Leipzip transponder to the de-whatever file instead of creating a new de-Leipzig file, so this point shouldn't cause trouble to you. People don't have to scan every day, so it doesn't hurt if the scan time is increased by some seconds. Thanks, Christoph -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Tobias Stoeber wrote: > > > should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz for > > > Ch 32. > > > > Is this correct, or should the range be from 558 to 566MHz, > > apart from locations (such as the UK and Australia) where an > > offset may be used? > > Well, you may be right ... I recalled that from former norms (analogue) and > the fact, that the digital channels were expected to use the existing > boundaries. Well, the thing is, that where I came from and where I was working as a broadcast technician many decades ago, where a grandfathered norm was in use that makes a good PAL signal appear to be practically high-definition in comparison... The reason for the offset was due to the use of analogue modulation on the video carrier, which causes a sideband to be created on either side of this carrier, corresponding to the frequency of the modulating signal. For simplicity, I'll say that this blurry-o-vision would have a bandwidth of about 3MHz, with some vague colour info squezed above this, and then a separate audio carrier with an offset of 4,5MHz from the video carrier. So, *very* roughly, in ASCII graphics, the frequency spectrum of the modulated carrier could be seen like this... _ I _ / |I| \ignoring the colour and sound. __/ \I/ \__ F-3 F F+3 This would require twice the bandwidth of the actual information, or 6MHz for 3MHz baseband video, and 9MHz when you add in the sound. Strictly seen, the carrier F - modulation frequency f carries the same information as F + f, so one can transmit only the upper sideband without losing any information, and filter out the lower sideband. Because the filter is not perfect, and I've long since drank the precise values from memory, there still will remain a bit of the lower sideband... _ I _ / |I| \ __| \I/ \__ F-3 F F+3 Thus the 1,25MHz offset of F from the lower bound of the frequency range. And the upper bound will not be 8MHz higher, as that's the step to the next carrier frequency here. Those 1,25MHz belong to the leftovers of the lower sideband of the next channel up. So the maximum available bandwidth will be based on 8MHz minus the 1,25MHz, minus a bit for additional services -- I've never grasped the details of the differing norms for audio, as I've never had the need, only having picked up the above as a side-effect from my work outside of television. > http://www.kathrein.de/en/hfc/techn-infos/download/TA-163-164.pdf > it seems, that you are correct (or how to you read the info in the pdf?). I'll have to get to this later with a better net connection... But my basic understanding is that the CODFM signal can be vaguely seen as some 8192 carriers packed within that 8MHz bandwidth (or 2k in early-adopter parts of the UK), and there is not the waste of a leftover bit of sideband that needs the 1,25MHz offset -- instead you could view the carrier as the center of the 8MHz range, as is done. Now there is no guarantee that any of this is right, as I haven't attempted to absorb the multitude of information I've come across to reach the `Aha!' moment of enlightenment that I need. > > Maybe. It's better, in my mind, than the existing case of > > individual sites, which again, may or may not cover the case > > of nearby areas. > > Well, the old style of de-transmitter_region scan file had the charme, that it > is easier (at least for me) to select the transmitter sites in my direct > surrounding and I've no real use of de-federal_state. You also have the advantage of being familiar with the sites you can receive, as well as your local geography. If I were to suddenly be plopped into your general area, I'd have to dig out a map to try and see what might be nearby. I'm an outsider and don't have the background of a native, except in a few places where I've spent more time than I should have. I've only once passed through Braunschweig on the way to Danmark from the sunny south, and it won't be until I take the time to do the research, thus familiarising myself with a region which does not immediately bring to mind Weisswurst or Spätzle, that the individual site files (when they even exist, or when they are even accurate) would be as useful to me. Take a look at fr-*. That's (in my out-of-date mirror) over 100 sites. One reason this is needed is due to the fact that they chose not to make use of Single-Frequency Networks, and so nearby towns are assigned different frequencies, rather than the reuse that I've noted in my comments for B-W. Counting the number of ZDF sites on the ten pages of teletext, I come up with over 130 transmitters, most of which are shared with the ARD and others. But this is not always true, as there are a handful of sites, most in edge cases, where only the ARD/Dritte stations are being sent, so I'll estimate that Christoph will need some 130 to 140 different file
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi, BOUWSMA Barry schrieb: It's just a centre frequency used for tuning purposes. The DVB-T signal should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz for Ch 32. Is this correct, or should the range be from 558 to 566MHz, apart from locations (such as the UK and Australia) where an offset may be used? Well, you may be right ... I recalled that from former norms (analogue) and the fact, that the digital channels were expected to use the existing boundaries. Looking at e.g. http://www.kathrein.de/en/hfc/techn-infos/download/TA-163-164.pdf it seems, that you are correct (or how to you read the info in the pdf?). I'd assume the 1,25MHz offset you list is due to the use of analogue suppressed sideband, where the actual carrier to be modulated would be, for E21: 21 471.250; the sound carrier at some offset to this which I don't remember, not having interest much in the many different analogue norms... Yes, see above. Looking through your files in the zip archive, it rose some questions in my mind: a) is it really useful to have scan files by federal state (Bundesland)? Maybe. It's better, in my mind, than the existing case of individual sites, which again, may or may not cover the case of nearby areas. Well, the old style of de-transmitter_region scan file had the charme, that it is easier (at least for me) to select the transmitter sites in my direct surrounding and I've no real use of de-federal_state. Take a large geographical area like Niedersachsen, so you come to the conclusion, that in most areas you won't need the overwhelming majority of entries in de-Niedersachsen (because transmitters are to far away), but you will in most cases need entries from the de-federal_state files. But don't mind. The work of Christoph to generate de-federal_state files (from quite recent data) will help a lot, because some of de-transmitter_region where a bit outdated or not present at all. I'm trying to decide if a de-all type of file would make any sense, and how to go about it, because I'm dissatisfied with the current state of de-Wherever files. Hmmm :-/ I've posted in the past my suggestion for a de-BW file, made by hand, which tries to address this issue, as well as provide an overview for anyone trying to make sense of the frequencies and broadcast policies, as well as to help with antenna orientation, towerspotting, or anything else that might interest me, in a single location. Have you seen this file? If not, would you care to find it in the archives (or I'll mail you a copy) and tell me what you think of it? Well, I had to look in may list archive, but did find it (your posting from 02 Dec 2008). First, I looks like a lot of wrok, especially because this area not only benefits from other federal staes but also from France and Switzerland. => I personally would prefer to stay with or alternatively provide a region based file, so I could look up and combine the regions of interest. What do you think? A Bundesland-based set of files is a region-based set, or can you better describe the regions you are thinking of? In any case, due to the nature of overlap, there will always be edge cases regardless of region, bar island nations or those where penetration is not aimed at close to 100%... I actually meant scan files for specific DVB-T region like de-Berlin, de-Munich, de-Nuernberg etc. For cases like this, I don't know if it's better to have a separate de-Leipzig file as today, plus something covering a larger region. I would argue the case for keeping, say, de-Stuttgart but losing everything else in favour of de-BW; however, at least two locations there do not just list the local transmitter frequencies (Ravensburg and Mannheim) but list out-of-Bundesland frequencies (the Privates from FFM for the latter, and austrian and maybe swiss frequencies receivable around the Bodensee in the former). In case of Leipzig this is certainly true and there may be other regions where there are some "special cases". But that's just my idea, and really, I would like to hear what you think of the contents of my de-BW file, as the single bit of feedback I got on it was negative. Well, as a (mostly?) complete collection of all transmitting sites that could possibly be received, it's good work, that I would appreciate. On the other hand, I am not so good in geography, so that I would have to use some sort of map to find out, what distances are between my location in Baden-Wuerttemberg (lets for instance say Ulm or Biberach) and the out of area sites. I would say, that for Biberach additonally sites from Bavaria (Bayern) or Switzerland may be correct. I like it, could imagine to do a similar file at least for my Bundesland. Interestingly you also list the height above see level and antenne height of the BW sites. Ideally one would have the data, which ist displayed in the "reception forecast" maps (say location and technical dat
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Tobias Stoeber wrote: > > In reality, when I've been in a new location and done a scan > > without knowing transmitter site details, I've just used a > > general purpose scanfile I've created which goes from 474 in > > 8MHz steps up to 850 or so, like > > ### Kanal 68 UHF > > T 85000 8MHz AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO > > So why then not provide a generic scan file listing all freq with AUTO > parameters? It's a nice idea, but apparently there are some devices which do require particular values and don't work with `AUTO'. Also, it will take some time to scan all these frequencies, so I prefer to limit it where possible to known and nearby in-use frequencies, rather than waiting half an hour to see that just one frequency tunes. And third, while it's the case for germany and most if not all nearby countries, that the actual frequency in MHz will be divisible by two (except for the few remaining VHF) and have no fractional MHz values, this is not the same in all countries where DVB-T is in use. That could be due to the pretty much hard switchover/off having largely happened, with no or a coordinated simulcast, while other areas have to play with offsets, but I'm not so familiar with the status and progress of switchover everywhere. There are apparently also some devices which need to have any offset specified precisely, or they can't tune to that particular frequency. Anyway, one of my reasons for creating my version of de-BW was not only to list the frequencies, but also to provide info as I absorbed it about the transmitter sites and more, that you wouldn't get in a generic universal frequency list. That was prompted by an interest in trying to get my head around the GE06 frequency plan and allocations, which would also mean I'd need to try and understand the planning of the SFNs. That file can be shrunk and expanded by the use of comments to make it more relevant to a particular area -- if you're basking on the Bodensee, you don't need to know anything about France, Hessen, or some 2/3 of all the frequencies scattered throughout the B-W file, and my comments should make that easy. After all, it wasn't until you pointed me to the first pdf list that I was aware that QAM64 was in use in germany, save for bleed out of france, and it will be interesting once I get around to noting the transmitter sites on a printed map. barry bouwsma -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi, hermann pitton schrieb: The reverse effect will be, we have it already with federal state scan files now, that we likely will see more questions about why the hell I don't get this one and tuning failed ... Regarding the de-Sachsen-Anhalt file, apart from 3 or 4 frequency entries the rest is useless being within the state, because regarding transmitters the areas are mostly not coordinated. Brocken and Magdeburg are the only sites with Sachsen-Anhalt that are corrdinated. In fact, it is more common, that transmitters here are coordinated with sites from others states, e.g. "ARD-Das Erste" multiplex in Halle/Saale (Sachsen-Anhalt/Saxony-Anhalt) are coordinated with Leipzig (Sachsen/Saxony) and Gera (Thüringen/Thuringia), because this area is also topographically adjunct. "ZDF" multiplex is coordinated between Hale/Saale and Leipzig ... To share a center frequency over several federal states under such conditions seems to be plain wrong and I wonder if there was a rule. This does not matter, as the transmitters in Brauschweig (Niedersachsen/Lower Saxony) and Halle/Saale (Sachsen-Anhalt) don't interfere with each other (the sites are more than 140 km apart) and there is a buffer zone of about 40 - 50 km between them, where you need a directed roof antenna to either receive one of them. As I've experienced so far while travelling, that there are only very small parts in my federal state (Bundesland) of Sachsen-Anhalt where one can receive more than one transmitter site (and in most of this cases, a roof antenna is required, so you would normally have to direct this to a specific transmitter). Well, I believe both scenarios(scan file for federal state versus scan file for a DVB-T region) have their pros and cons. :( Fortunately programs like "Kaffeine" offer a full auto scan ... Regards, Tobias -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi, Am Dienstag, den 27.01.2009, 23:46 +0100 schrieb Tobias Stoeber: > Hi all, > > I've just conducted a little test using the de-Sachsen-Anhalt scan file. > As expected, only 3 lines actually worked (those muxes transmitted > from Mt. Brocken). > > The line for 498 Mhz (Ch24 Halle-Saale), which is > > T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH24: Das Erste, arte, > Phoenix, EinsFestival > > does actually tune to the Ch 24 from Braunschweig, but fails to > recognize the stations there, because of QAM64: > > >>> tune to: > 49800:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_AUTO:QAM_64:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE > WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0011 > WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x > WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0010 > > Using the correct setting of QAM16 gives: > > using '/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0' and '/dev/dvb/adapter0/demux0' > >>> tune to: > 49800:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_AUTO:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE > 0x 0x4015: pmt_pid 0x0150 RTL World -- RTL Television (running) > 0x 0x4016: pmt_pid 0x0160 RTL World -- RTL2 (running) > 0x 0x4017: pmt_pid 0x0170 RTL World -- Super RTL (running) > 0x 0x4022: pmt_pid 0x0220 RTL World -- VOX (running) > > Both testes 10 times > > BOUWSMA Barry schrieb: > >>=> Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from > >>Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this). > > > > This all depends on the device. At least some of my tuners > > effectively will lock a signal as if I've specified `AUTO' > > in place of everything, even when what I specify is wrong. > > So for my Yakumo DVB-T stick it does matter :( > > > In reality, when I've been in a new location and done a scan > > without knowing transmitter site details, I've just used a > > general purpose scanfile I've created which goes from 474 in > > 8MHz steps up to 850 or so, like > > ### Kanal 68 UHF > > T 85000 8MHz AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO > > So why then not provide a generic scan file listing all freq with AUTO > parameters? > > Regards, Tobias yes, that is to what Christoph pointed his hopes too. But for what is on the markets, and no end in sight, some/many need it exactly, some manage to come through a mixture of exactly and auto, which also breaks such auto capable for more if something is wrong there. Currently I would give the so far last word on it to the maintainer of that mess, but I'm not against Barry and would even consider a "all known universe" scan file including neighboring countries, if this doesn't mean Christoph has it on his back too. The reverse effect will be, we have it already with federal state scan files now, that we likely will see more questions about why the hell I don't get this one and tuning failed ... To share a center frequency over several federal states under such conditions seems to be plain wrong and I wonder if there was a rule. Cheers, Hermann -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi all, I've just conducted a little test using the de-Sachsen-Anhalt scan file. As expected, only 3 lines actually worked (those muxes transmitted from Mt. Brocken). The line for 498 Mhz (Ch24 Halle-Saale), which is T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH24: Das Erste, arte, Phoenix, EinsFestival does actually tune to the Ch 24 from Braunschweig, but fails to recognize the stations there, because of QAM64: >>> tune to: 49800:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_AUTO:QAM_64:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0011 WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0010 Using the correct setting of QAM16 gives: using '/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0' and '/dev/dvb/adapter0/demux0' >>> tune to: 49800:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_AUTO:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE 0x 0x4015: pmt_pid 0x0150 RTL World -- RTL Television (running) 0x 0x4016: pmt_pid 0x0160 RTL World -- RTL2 (running) 0x 0x4017: pmt_pid 0x0170 RTL World -- Super RTL (running) 0x 0x4022: pmt_pid 0x0220 RTL World -- VOX (running) Both testes 10 times BOUWSMA Barry schrieb: => Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this). This all depends on the device. At least some of my tuners effectively will lock a signal as if I've specified `AUTO' in place of everything, even when what I specify is wrong. So for my Yakumo DVB-T stick it does matter :( In reality, when I've been in a new location and done a scan without knowing transmitter site details, I've just used a general purpose scanfile I've created which goes from 474 in 8MHz steps up to 850 or so, like ### Kanal 68 UHF T 85000 8MHz AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO So why then not provide a generic scan file listing all freq with AUTO parameters? Regards, Tobias -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi guys,
2009/1/27 Tobias Stoeber :
> Hi Christoph,
>
> Just had a look at your zip archive and the files.
>
> Christoph Pfister schrieb:
>> I've updated my de-files:
>> - fixed the url (inserted the wrong one by accident)
>> - fixed vhf channels (they were using 8mhz because my trigger was wrong)
>> - add the the "# CHxy: name of programs" information
>> - 563 MHz --> 562 MHz (their pdf seems to use a wrong frequency for channel
>> 32)
As Hermann already pointed out, I've committed these files to hg. I've
extracted as much information as possible from the pdf (there are
still errors remaining: a ch65 <--> 778 MHz mapping somewhere, which
I'll fix myself, and the Hamburg 1/4 <--> 1/8 duplication, which I
won't touch) and I've done some spot checks against the existing scan
data. This should help many regions (where the scan files were just
collecting dust). So please (re-)post your additions relative to these
files.
> You are right. 562 MHz as nominal frequency is correct, because for
> DVB-T this is calculated 306 MHz + channel number x 8 MHz. VHF would be
> 142.5 MHz + channel number x 7 MHz.
>
> It's just a centre frequency used for tuning purposes. The DVB-T signal
> should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz
> for Ch 32.
>
>> But I haven't looked at the new documents proposed in this thread yet.
>
> I didn't compare that either. Could also be difficult, because of
> different revision dates.
>
> Looking through your files in the zip archive, it rose some questions in
> my mind:
>
> a) is it really useful to have scan files by federal state (Bundesland)?
>
> Just let me explain with an example. I live in Sachsen-Anhalt on the
> north of the Harz Mountains area. To effectivly ("best") use DVB-T I do
> combine both transmitters in Sachsen-Anhalt (Mt. Brocken) and from
> Niedersachsen (Braunschweig). This is because some channels are only
> available from a specific transmitting site (private channels only from
> Braunschweig, RBB only from Brocken). The same applies to other regions
> in Sachsen-Anhalt (south east will have reception from Sachsen and
> Thüringen, north east from Berlin / Brandeburg etc.)
>
> I think, this situation will also apply to other federal states.
>
> => I personally would prefer to stay with or alternatively provide a
> region based file, so I could look up and combine the regions of
> interest. What do you think?
There are always "edge" cases, between transmitters, regions or
countries. If you want, you can always c&p from different files (they
don't hurt each other). But the cost-benefit side looks a bit
different: Using that pdf I could (hopefully) produce working data for
many people. Imho taking care of all those intersection cases is more
effort and not necessarily justified. And I reall hope that auto-scan
will spread more ...
> b) Conflicting information
>
> In your "Sachsen-Anhalt" scanfile you list on Ch 24 the ARD multiplex
> with (Halle-Stadt):
>
> T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE
> # CH24: Das Erste, arte, Phoenix, EinsFestival
>
> which is for a large part of Sachsen-Anhalt useless (we can't receive
> that), as we actually receive on Ch 24 (from Braunschweig)
>
> T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
> # CH24: RTL, RTL II, Super RTL, VOX
>
> => have a look at QAM, its QAM64 in your scanfile and QAM16 for Ch24 we
> actually receive.
>
> => Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from
> Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this).
>
> c) You clearly missed out some information. I noticed for instance Ch 37
> in Leipzig (Sachsen) which is the "Leipzig 1" multiplex
>
> Please have a look at the already posted link to SLM or my homepage:
>
> http://www.to-st.de/content/projects/dvb-t/dvbt-sender-leipzig.de.html
>
> On the other hand I doubt, that it would be a useful entry into a
> "Sachsen" scanfile because reception is limited to the area of the city
> of Lepzig.
>
> As I have no overview of regional "special projects" in other area, such
> omissions in the files may apply to other areas too.
>
> @Barry
>
> Just as a sidenote and for historical purposes I may point you to:
>
> http://www.ifn.ing.tu-bs.de/itg/docs/030403Braunschweig/ITG030403Hoehne_Frequenzplanung.pdf
>
> which gives an overview how in 2003 the concept for the north of Germany
> had been planned. This information is obsolete and has changed, but the
> document show a bit, how decisions evolved in consideration of federal
> state and "Medienanstalt" boundaries (e.g. Bremen) etc.
>
> Regards, Tobias
Christoph
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Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Salü, Tobias...
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Tobias Stoeber wrote:
> You are right. 562 MHz as nominal frequency is correct, because for
> It's just a centre frequency used for tuning purposes. The DVB-T signal
> should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz
> for Ch 32.
Is this correct, or should the range be from 558 to 566MHz,
apart from locations (such as the UK and Australia) where an
offset may be used?
I'd assume the 1,25MHz offset you list is due to the use of
analogue suppressed sideband, where the actual carrier to
be modulated would be, for E21: 21 471.250; the sound
carrier at some offset to this which I don't remember, not
having interest much in the many different analogue norms...
> Looking through your files in the zip archive, it rose some questions in
> my mind:
>
> a) is it really useful to have scan files by federal state (Bundesland)?
Maybe. It's better, in my mind, than the existing case of
individual sites, which again, may or may not cover the case
of nearby areas.
I'm trying to decide if a de-all type of file would make any
sense, and how to go about it, because I'm dissatisfied with
the current state of de-Wherever files.
In the case of ch-all, it makes sense, because it's a simple
case of generally a single multiplex per language region, based
on the GE06 frequency allocations, in a smaller geographic area.
> Just let me explain with an example. I live in Sachsen-Anhalt on the
> north of the Harz Mountains area. To effectivly ("best") use DVB-T I do
> combine both transmitters in Sachsen-Anhalt (Mt. Brocken) and from
> Niedersachsen (Braunschweig). This is because some channels are only
I've posted in the past my suggestion for a de-BW file, made
by hand, which tries to address this issue, as well as provide
an overview for anyone trying to make sense of the frequencies
and broadcast policies, as well as to help with antenna
orientation, towerspotting, or anything else that might interest
me, in a single location.
Have you seen this file? If not, would you care to find it in
the archives (or I'll mail you a copy) and tell me what you
think of it?
> => I personally would prefer to stay with or alternatively provide a
> region based file, so I could look up and combine the regions of
> interest. What do you think?
A Bundesland-based set of files is a region-based set, or can
you better describe the regions you are thinking of? In any
case, due to the nature of overlap, there will always be edge
cases regardless of region, bar island nations or those where
penetration is not aimed at close to 100%...
The division by Bundesland works also because of different
management in each Land, which plays out in channel assignments,
SFNs, and common use of a particular modulation, I am seeing by
the overview presented in the first pdf file.
> b) Conflicting information
>
> In your "Sachsen-Anhalt" scanfile you list on Ch 24 the ARD multiplex
> with (Halle-Stadt):
>
> T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE
> # CH24: Das Erste, arte, Phoenix, EinsFestival
>
> which is for a large part of Sachsen-Anhalt useless (we can't receive
> that), as we actually receive on Ch 24 (from Braunschweig)
>
> T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
> # CH24: RTL, RTL II, Super RTL, VOX
I intend to take Christoph's files and massage them to add
bits of info, reviewing the info by hand, adding missing info
and generally trying to come up with something like the BW
file I created.
But I want feedback about that file too, rather than to have
my changes be rejected after I've done the review and work.
> => Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from
> Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this).
This all depends on the device. At least some of my tuners
effectively will lock a signal as if I've specified `AUTO'
in place of everything, even when what I specify is wrong.
In reality, when I've been in a new location and done a scan
without knowing transmitter site details, I've just used a
general purpose scanfile I've created which goes from 474 in
8MHz steps up to 850 or so, like
### Kanal 68 UHF
T 85000 8MHz AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO
> c) You clearly missed out some information. I noticed for instance Ch 37
> in Leipzig (Sachsen) which is the "Leipzig 1" multiplex
> On the other hand I doubt, that it would be a useful entry into a
> "Sachsen" scanfile because reception is limited to the area of the city
> of Lepzig.
For cases like this, I don't know if it's better to have
a separate de-Leipzig file as today, plus something covering
a larger region. I would argue the case for keeping, say,
de-Stuttgart but losing everything else in favour of de-BW;
however, at least two locations there do not just list the
local transmitter frequencies (Ravensburg and Mannheim) but list
out-of-Bundesland frequencies (the Privates from FFM for the
latter, and austrian and maybe swiss frequencies receivab
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi all, BOUWSMA Barry schrieb: ... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your summarization ;) I hope you don't mind. No worries. I've tried to give a view that an outsider could use to better understand the situation and place a logic onto the channel assignments, as it is a bit more detailed than the situation in, say, Switzerland. Or France. Never been there lately, so I don't know nothing about it. Maybe it's just due to the fact, that the grown world of German broadcasting tends to be rather complex. ;) Not to mention radio services, which apart from classical FM (VHF) and AM (medium wave, long wave and short wave) do include DAB, radio over DVB-T and DVB-S and a lot of experiementing like "HD radio" etc. So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference in regional private versus local? Local broadcasters here would include, as examples, HH1, only available in the Hamburg region, or perhaps some of what can be seen in Leipzig, though that appears not to be included in the .pdf file frequency list. Likewise I'd include the different services which can be seen via DVB satellite making up FrankenSat and the like -- simply because I'm not familiar enough with them and their reach -- I'd assume TRP is available in Passau, but not throughout Oberbayern, for example. Okay, now I got that ;) By a region, I mean either a Bundesland, as opposed to those which cover just a large city (Berlin, HH, Bremen...) or a large part thereof. For example, RTL has available a service for Austria and the german part of Switzerland, and for HH SH and HB NDS available via satellite, as does Sat1 with services SAT1 National, SAT1 NRW, SAT1 NS/Bremen, SAT1 HH/SH, SAT1 RhlPf/Hessen, and for Bayern, Test BY. (info may be some months out-of-date) Well, Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen are not a good example, because actually they are a Bundesland ;) But I got the point, you tried to make. Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with the multitude of private broadcasters out there and their coverage areas, due to receiving satellite signals, which lack most of these. Only occasionally will something catch my interest -- for example, was tm3 a local München service, which happened to be available nationally before it perverted into Neun Live and wormed its way into DVB-T multiplexes? And likewise, the service which Hornauer took over before finally sputtering off satellite after a shell game into Austria, whose original name I can no longer remember... I doubt, that apart from a handful of people, a simgle person has a complete overview and knowledge in regard to every little broadcasting station in Germany. Just remember, that there a also a lot of local stations that a distributed via cable only. For instance all the "Offener Kanal" (citizen tv, may I call it so?) stations. The stations must also be licensed in one of the federal states and are required to broadcast are local/regional programme there(!), which results in the fact, that on DVB-T (and before on analogue TV) there are programmes targeted to the region and which are not available on satellite TV. For RTL in Niedersachen/Bremen there is a programme called "Guten Abend RTL" between 18h00 and 18h30, or on Sat.1 there is then a programme called "Sat1 - 17.30 live NDS/Bremen" between 17h30 and 18h00. Actually, these services are now available nationally (and through europe) via DVB-S. Earlier, these were sent at least in part via low-bandwidth transponders in the style of SNG feeds; today they make use of dynamic PMT switching within a full-bandwidth multiplex, in the same way that WDR in particular switches to its many regions for part of the day. Oh, thanks for the information (and correction). As I am not longer able to use satellite / DVB-S, I've lost track on the developments there. If I remember, there is also an occasional multiplex in, if I remember, Nürnberg... I do need to look more in detail at these projects. Would be interting, if you find out any information. As I've searched for a detailed list, I've come across: http://dvb-t.the-media-channel.com/ which has a very uptodate and detailed listing, which I checked for Leipzig (including the SLM city multiplex!): http://dvb-t.the-media-channel.com/mitteldeutschland/dvb-t-leipzig.html These listing contain a lot of technical information (I was really amazed how detailed). What I do notice is that in the frequency list, Leipzig includes only the three PSB multiplexes, including one on VHF channel 9, which eventually should be moved, I would expect. I would not expect, that this VHF Ch 9 will change in the next months. No news about that. That only the 3 PSB multiplexes are listed may be due to the fact, that die technical provider for the "Leipzig 1" mux is not Media Broadcast GmbH (former T-Systems Media&Broadcast GmbH (M&B), now part of TDF from France ... has sort of a monopol on DVB-T in Germany) but
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi, Am Dienstag, den 27.01.2009, 09:30 +0100 schrieb Tobias Stöber: > Moin, moin, > > ... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your > summarization ;) I hope you don't mind. > > BOUWSMA Barry schrieb: > > Certainly. Just as a background, for the one or zero persons who > > care,the situation in germany can be vaguely described thus: There > > exist national public service, regional public > > service,national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters. > > So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference > in regional private versus local? > > > In general, the local and private broadcasters focus theirattention > > on large markets (Berlin, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg,München, and so > > on), and are not to be found so much outsidethese limited regions -- > > with exceptions, like in Oberbayernfrom the Wendelstein, but while > > the public service broadcastershave a remit to reach the general > > population, the privatebroadcasters have chosen to focus their > > financial investmentin those markets where they can reach a larger > > audienceshare for little investment. That is, the RTL and > > Pro7Sat1families can be seen in, say, Hamburg, but far from > > thesemetro areas, you are pretty much limited to a subset of > > thepublic broadcasters. > > That is partially correct. The real reason is in the structure and > history of the German broadcasting market and the introduction of DVB -T > services in different stages. > > After the World War II the western Allies decided to organise > broadcasting similar to that of the BBC (and also a bite like networks > in the US) and give West-Germany a structure of federal states, which > became responsible for broadcasting. Therefore the national government > in Berlin is in most parts not responsible for broadcasting (apart from > public service that is financed from there like Deutsche Welle radio & > tv). The idea behind that was, that the broadcasters should be free from > interference from the government and managed as an independent public > service. > > All decisions and legislation have to be made in the 16 federal state > parliaments (and sometimes the Bundestag to), e.g. the > "Rundfunkfinanzierungsstaatsvertrag" (State Treaty on the Financing of > Broadcasting). > > This law btw required people living in Germany to pay a broadcasting fee > if they possess a radio oder tv set. This fee is use to finance the > public-law broacasting services (like the stations organized in the ARD, > ZDF, national radio service Deutschlandfunk/Deutschlandradio and some > other institutions). You'll be charged for the possession, nit for > actually listening or viewing these stations. I won't go into detail... > > First their existed only the federal public-law broadcasting system, > where a broadcasting institution was responsbile for one (or sometimes > more) federal state(s) / Bundesland. Apart from the where national radio > stations like Deutschlandfunk ... as we talk about DVB-T I will from now > one skip info on radio. > > These stations all are organised in the „Arbeitsgemeinschaft der > öffentlich-rechtlichen Rundfunkanstalten der Bundesrepublik Deutschland“ > (ARD) and have their own local programme (often refererred as he "third" > programme (das Dritte) and also contribute to a national programme > called "Das Erste" (oder sometimes also called "ARD"). > > The leading role for a specific programme contribution rest with a > specific broadcaster (sometimes this changed between them). For > instance, the newscast "Tagesschau" or "Tagesthemen" are produced in > Hamburg and the station in lead is NDR. The political magazine "Report" > is produced and lead be either Bayrischer Rundfunk (BR), then called > "Report München" or SWR, then called "Report Mainz". The magazine "FAKT" > is produced by MDR etc. pp. > > Later there was a national TV service establised, the ZDF with its > headquarters in Mainz and local studios in every federal state. This is > also resembled in the name "Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen" (second German TV). > > East Germany had a state controlled national service before 1990, with 2 > TV programmes and adopted the federal system after reunification. East > and West Berlin were served by SFB (Sender Freies Berlin) For the 5 new > federal states the NDR took over Meckelnburg-Vorpommern (as it was > already responsible for all other coastal regions in Niedersachen, > Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein), Brandenburg became the ORB > (Ostdeutscher Rundfunk Brandenburg), later merged with SFB to now RBB, > and the three other federal states are served by MDR (Mitteldeutscher > Rundfunk). > > There are then other public-law TV stations which result from > cooperation between broadcasters, e.g. KiKA (children channel, coop of > ARD and ZDF), 3sat (coop of ARD, ZDF, ORF from Astria and SRG swiss TV), > arte (coop between ARD, ZDF and France televisio
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Grüezi mitenand!
*Whew*, that was a lot
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Tobias Stöber wrote:
> ... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your
> summarization ;) I hope you don't mind.
No worries. I've tried to give a view that an outsider could
use to better understand the situation and place a logic onto
the channel assignments, as it is a bit more detailed than the
situation in, say, Switzerland. Or France.
> > exist national public service, regional public
> > service,national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters.
>
> So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference in
> regional private versus local?
Local broadcasters here would include, as examples, HH1, only
available in the Hamburg region, or perhaps some of what can
be seen in Leipzig, though that appears not to be included in
the .pdf file frequency list. Likewise I'd include the
different services which can be seen via DVB satellite making
up FrankenSat and the like -- simply because I'm not familiar
enough with them and their reach -- I'd assume TRP is available
in Passau, but not throughout Oberbayern, for example.
By a region, I mean either a Bundesland, as opposed to those
which cover just a large city (Berlin, HH, Bremen...) or a
large part thereof. For example, RTL has available a service
for Austria and the german part of Switzerland, and for HH SH
and HB NDS available via satellite, as does Sat1 with services
SAT1 National, SAT1 NRW, SAT1 NS/Bremen, SAT1 HH/SH,
SAT1 RhlPf/Hessen, and for Bayern, Test BY. (info may be some
months out-of-date)
Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with the multitude of
private broadcasters out there and their coverage areas, due
to receiving satellite signals, which lack most of these.
Only occasionally will something catch my interest -- for
example, was tm3 a local München service, which happened to
be available nationally before it perverted into Neun Live
and wormed its way into DVB-T multiplexes? And likewise, the
service which Hornauer took over before finally sputtering off
satellite after a shell game into Austria, whose original name
I can no longer remember...
> The stations must also be licensed in one of the federal states and are
> required to broadcast are local/regional programme there(!), which results in
> the fact, that on DVB-T (and before on analogue TV) there are programmes
> targeted to the region and which are not available on satellite TV. For RTL in
> Niedersachen/Bremen there is a programme called "Guten Abend RTL" between
> 18h00 and 18h30, or on Sat.1 there is then a programme called "Sat1 - 17.30
> live NDS/Bremen" between 17h30 and 18h00.
Actually, these services are now available nationally (and through
europe) via DVB-S. Earlier, these were sent at least in part via
low-bandwidth transponders in the style of SNG feeds; today they
make use of dynamic PMT switching within a full-bandwidth
multiplex, in the same way that WDR in particular switches to its
many regions for part of the day.
> There are then also some special local DVB-T phenomena, like radio stations
> over DVB-T in Berlin or special projects like the private "Leipzig 1" -
> multiplex which experiments with a small cell SFN nework of low-power
> transmitters within a very small area (area of the city of Leipzig) with 6
> transmitters in that (Leipzig-Mitte, Leipzig-Messe, Leipzig-Grünau,
> Leipzig-Markkleeberg and Leipzig-Lößnig). This project does include TV and
> radio stations (Leipzig Fernsehen, Infokanal Leipzig, BBC World, Bibel TV,
> Radio Horeb, Radio Leipzig).
If I remember, there is also an occasional multiplex in, if I
remember, Nürnberg... I do need to look more in detail at these
projects.
What I do notice is that in the frequency list, Leipzig includes
only the three PSB multiplexes, including one on VHF channel 9,
which eventually should be moved, I would expect.
Also of note is that the dvb-apps scanfile for Leipzig does not
include the frequency for that low-power network. I think I
need to do some homework...
> > The practical example of this would be that while onecan see the same
> > content via ZDFmobil anywhere, theso-called ARD multiplex may
> > contain, by region, EinsPlusor EinsFestival, or perhaps in that
> > region, that regionalmanager's so-called ``Dritte'' (third, after ARD
> > beingfirst and ZDF being second) programme.
>
> Not correct, the ARD-Das Erste multiplex does NOT contain regional ("third")
> programmes! There is always a seperate multiplex for the "third" programmes.
I hate to disagree, but Brandenburg appears to mix rbb-Brandenburg
with ARD, with the `dritte' multiplex containing `arte'; this is
also the same for Berlin and rbb-Berlin -- I'm not sure if the PMT
switching is used here to make the Brandenburg and Berlin local
programming available through the entire area for the few hours
per day when they differ.
Similarly in Bremen, Radio Bremen TV is found where one normally
would see one o
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi Christoph,
Just had a look at your zip archive and the files.
Christoph Pfister schrieb:
I've updated my de-files:
- fixed the url (inserted the wrong one by accident)
- fixed vhf channels (they were using 8mhz because my trigger was wrong)
- add the the "# CHxy: name of programs" information
- 563 MHz --> 562 MHz (their pdf seems to use a wrong frequency for channel 32)
You are right. 562 MHz as nominal frequency is correct, because for
DVB-T this is calculated 306 MHz + channel number x 8 MHz. VHF would be
142.5 MHz + channel number x 7 MHz.
It's just a centre frequency used for tuning purposes. The DVB-T signal
should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz
for Ch 32.
But I haven't looked at the new documents proposed in this thread yet.
I didn't compare that either. Could also be difficult, because of
different revision dates.
Looking through your files in the zip archive, it rose some questions in
my mind:
a) is it really useful to have scan files by federal state (Bundesland)?
Just let me explain with an example. I live in Sachsen-Anhalt on the
north of the Harz Mountains area. To effectivly ("best") use DVB-T I do
combine both transmitters in Sachsen-Anhalt (Mt. Brocken) and from
Niedersachsen (Braunschweig). This is because some channels are only
available from a specific transmitting site (private channels only from
Braunschweig, RBB only from Brocken). The same applies to other regions
in Sachsen-Anhalt (south east will have reception from Sachsen and
Thüringen, north east from Berlin / Brandeburg etc.)
I think, this situation will also apply to other federal states.
=> I personally would prefer to stay with or alternatively provide a
region based file, so I could look up and combine the regions of
interest. What do you think?
b) Conflicting information
In your "Sachsen-Anhalt" scanfile you list on Ch 24 the ARD multiplex
with (Halle-Stadt):
T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE
# CH24: Das Erste, arte, Phoenix, EinsFestival
which is for a large part of Sachsen-Anhalt useless (we can't receive
that), as we actually receive on Ch 24 (from Braunschweig)
T 49800 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
# CH24: RTL, RTL II, Super RTL, VOX
=> have a look at QAM, its QAM64 in your scanfile and QAM16 for Ch24 we
actually receive.
=> Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from
Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this).
c) You clearly missed out some information. I noticed for instance Ch 37
in Leipzig (Sachsen) which is the "Leipzig 1" multiplex
Please have a look at the already posted link to SLM or my homepage:
http://www.to-st.de/content/projects/dvb-t/dvbt-sender-leipzig.de.html
On the other hand I doubt, that it would be a useful entry into a
"Sachsen" scanfile because reception is limited to the area of the city
of Lepzig.
As I have no overview of regional "special projects" in other area, such
omissions in the files may apply to other areas too.
@Barry
Just as a sidenote and for historical purposes I may point you to:
http://www.ifn.ing.tu-bs.de/itg/docs/030403Braunschweig/ITG030403Hoehne_Frequenzplanung.pdf
which gives an overview how in 2003 the concept for the north of Germany
had been planned. This information is obsolete and has changed, but the
document show a bit, how decisions evolved in consideration of federal
state and "Medienanstalt" boundaries (e.g. Bremen) etc.
Regards, Tobias
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Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Hi Barry, another info source regarding HH could be http://www.dvb-t-nord.de/empfangsgebiete/media/hhhlparameter.pdf It unfortunately does not contain recent or comming changes. But it contains detailed info, also technical parameters. Regards, Tobias -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Moin, moin, ... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your summarization ;) I hope you don't mind. BOUWSMA Barry schrieb: Certainly. Just as a background, for the one or zero persons who care,the situation in germany can be vaguely described thus: There exist national public service, regional public service,national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters. So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference in regional private versus local? In general, the local and private broadcasters focus theirattention on large markets (Berlin, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg,München, and so on), and are not to be found so much outsidethese limited regions -- with exceptions, like in Oberbayernfrom the Wendelstein, but while the public service broadcastershave a remit to reach the general population, the privatebroadcasters have chosen to focus their financial investmentin those markets where they can reach a larger audienceshare for little investment. That is, the RTL and Pro7Sat1families can be seen in, say, Hamburg, but far from thesemetro areas, you are pretty much limited to a subset of thepublic broadcasters. That is partially correct. The real reason is in the structure and history of the German broadcasting market and the introduction of DVB -T services in different stages. After the World War II the western Allies decided to organise broadcasting similar to that of the BBC (and also a bite like networks in the US) and give West-Germany a structure of federal states, which became responsible for broadcasting. Therefore the national government in Berlin is in most parts not responsible for broadcasting (apart from public service that is financed from there like Deutsche Welle radio & tv). The idea behind that was, that the broadcasters should be free from interference from the government and managed as an independent public service. All decisions and legislation have to be made in the 16 federal state parliaments (and sometimes the Bundestag to), e.g. the "Rundfunkfinanzierungsstaatsvertrag" (State Treaty on the Financing of Broadcasting). This law btw required people living in Germany to pay a broadcasting fee if they possess a radio oder tv set. This fee is use to finance the public-law broacasting services (like the stations organized in the ARD, ZDF, national radio service Deutschlandfunk/Deutschlandradio and some other institutions). You'll be charged for the possession, nit for actually listening or viewing these stations. I won't go into detail... First their existed only the federal public-law broadcasting system, where a broadcasting institution was responsbile for one (or sometimes more) federal state(s) / Bundesland. Apart from the where national radio stations like Deutschlandfunk ... as we talk about DVB-T I will from now one skip info on radio. These stations all are organised in the „Arbeitsgemeinschaft der öffentlich-rechtlichen Rundfunkanstalten der Bundesrepublik Deutschland“ (ARD) and have their own local programme (often refererred as he "third" programme (das Dritte) and also contribute to a national programme called "Das Erste" (oder sometimes also called "ARD"). The leading role for a specific programme contribution rest with a specific broadcaster (sometimes this changed between them). For instance, the newscast "Tagesschau" or "Tagesthemen" are produced in Hamburg and the station in lead is NDR. The political magazine "Report" is produced and lead be either Bayrischer Rundfunk (BR), then called "Report München" or SWR, then called "Report Mainz". The magazine "FAKT" is produced by MDR etc. pp. Later there was a national TV service establised, the ZDF with its headquarters in Mainz and local studios in every federal state. This is also resembled in the name "Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen" (second German TV). East Germany had a state controlled national service before 1990, with 2 TV programmes and adopted the federal system after reunification. East and West Berlin were served by SFB (Sender Freies Berlin) For the 5 new federal states the NDR took over Meckelnburg-Vorpommern (as it was already responsible for all other coastal regions in Niedersachen, Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein), Brandenburg became the ORB (Ostdeutscher Rundfunk Brandenburg), later merged with SFB to now RBB, and the three other federal states are served by MDR (Mitteldeutscher Rundfunk). There are then other public-law TV stations which result from cooperation between broadcasters, e.g. KiKA (children channel, coop of ARD and ZDF), 3sat (coop of ARD, ZDF, ORF from Astria and SRG swiss TV), arte (coop between ARD, ZDF and France television) etc. or are part of additional or digital bouqets (like ZDF.info, ZDF.doku, phoenix, Eins.extra etc.). Interestingly there was the situation, that if you had only analogue reception, you had to pay for e.g. 3sat and arte (broadcasting fee), but could not
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009, Christoph Pfister wrote:
> > On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Tobias Stöber wrote:
> >> There is a complete listing including parameters from "in area" and also
> >> "out of area" (but with reception in the area) transmitters at
> >> http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf
> I've quickly built a collection of scan files according to this
> document - do you mind having a look at them (although the change that
> will happen in Hamburg sometime and possibly other changes that
> happened since 25th November aren't considered yet)?
Certainly.
Just as a background, for the one or zero persons who care,
the situation in germany can be vaguely described thus:
There exist national public service, regional public service,
national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters.
In general, the local and private broadcasters focus their
attention on large markets (Berlin, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg,
München, and so on), and are not to be found so much outside
these limited regions -- with exceptions, like in Oberbayern
from the Wendelstein, but while the public service broadcasters
have a remit to reach the general population, the private
broadcasters have chosen to focus their financial investment
in those markets where they can reach a larger audience
share for little investment. That is, the RTL and Pro7Sat1
families can be seen in, say, Hamburg, but far from these
metro areas, you are pretty much limited to a subset of the
public broadcasters.
Of the national and regional public broadcasters, the DVB-T
situation can be pretty much described as thusly...
There is a truly national broadcaster, the second german
broadcaster, ZDF, which has a multiplex known as ZDFmobil
which is available nationally, and is identical whether
received in Flensburg or Passau (hey, no heckling, that was
a beloved train ride for me years ago).
The other nominally national broadcaster, ARD, known as the
first german broadcaster ("Das Erste"), suffers regionalisation
both through a local identity in a particular Bundesland,
as well as a regional DVB-T multiplex management that does
not always translate well to match those of neighbouring
lands.
This regionalisation is due to sub-management by a third
party, which, perhaps as a super-regional manager, is
responsible for more than one Bundesland (for our original
case of Hamburg, this would be NDR, together with its
daughter Radio Bremen). These `third parties' taken
together form that first german broadcaster, as well as
having their own distinct regional identities.
The practical example of this would be that while one
can see the same content via ZDFmobil anywhere, the
so-called ARD multiplex may contain, by region, EinsPlus
or EinsFestival, or perhaps in that region, that regional
manager's so-called ``Dritte'' (third, after ARD being
first and ZDF being second) programme.
In other words, nationally, one can receive the ZDF
multiplex, plus two others, which will depend on how
the regional management has decided to configure their
multiplexes. Services such as Phoenix and `arte' will
be available nationally, while the `dritte' multiplex
will contain a selection of out-of-area regionals of
interest due to geography or whatever.
Now, while ZDF has a unified national service, the same
is not necessarily true for what you can receive in
a selected Bundesland. For example, in Hessen, depending
on where you are, you may be able to receive the local
programming from the nearest Bundesland; in the south
of Bayern you can see SWR Baden-Württemberg but temporarily
not Hessen (or the DVB-H which replaced it), while in
the north you will instead see `mdr', although you may
have previously received SWR, which is the reason that
Bad Mergentheim in BaWü, near the border, will need its
own DVB-T transmitter sometime this year.
Now, anyway, for the zero readers who care, that's my
summary of german public broadcasters approach to DVB-T.
I'm happy to be corrected, because I'm an outsider.
So, anyway, there's been forces to cause merging of the
different regional broadcasters; NDR covers several
Bundesländer, with Radio Bremen retaining a bit of
independence; SWR has engulfed SWF and pretty-much-
identical-save-for-a-few-half-hour-bits-here-and-there
programming can be seen on SWR-RP, SWR-BW, and even
SR from the Saarland. This can probably be seen by
looking at the different frequency plans, although I
am too lazy and disinterested to do so now. Anyway,
the Genève frequency allocations look to be based on
geographical locations, independent of the regional
broadcast administrator responsible.
What am I saying by all this tripe? Well, there is a
regional frequency allocation that is presently used
by the public service broadcasters, but so far has
seen spotty adoption by the local and commercial
broadcasters apart from a handful of larger metro
regions, leaving most of the land by area dependent
upon satellite reception for these programmes.
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Mojn, as people say in the north and to the north of northern germany ;-) On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Tobias Stöber wrote: > Well, just have to send this message again, this time to the right & > correct mailing list linux-...@linuxtv.org. (Who by the way had the > insane idea, to set a reply-to address to another mailing list It also means that the original sender may not ever see a reply, unless one overrides this and uses the From: header, which I'm now doing in most replies, because except for a handful of developers, I really have no idea if the original poster of a message to -dvb is even subscribed to any other list. Most of the time, I'll guess they aren't. Meaning the reply stays on -dvb assuming I reply to all. As a result, pretty much everybody is crossposting between -dvb and -media rather than the so-called ``wanted'' effect of abandoning -dvb and keeping all posts in one location, that is, -media. Naturally, posts that are delivered directly to me do not contain this header, so my replies don't make it to that other list. Frankly, I ain't bothered anymore. > As for certain area in Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia there ahve Argh! Don't do this ;-) You're making me run for my englisch-to-german dictionary which contains none of these. But anyway... > in my area (Brunswick), where there had been an ARD Mux on Ch 8. Now it Okay, this isn't in my dictionary either, and while I could guess the others, I have no clue. Sounds Canadian to me, which says more about my background, than of non-native place names which I avoid (Milano it is; I grew up not far from Milan and I am not good-looking and sexy and sophisticated like the italians) But that is neither here nor there... > Information for the whole NDR area will normally be found at > http://www.dvb-t-nord.de. So far, only old info from last year is what I've found there. Likewise, the site for Bayern did not give me any info about plans to migrate the number of VHF frequencies into the UHF band, while it did have a few interesting bits of information not provided by the technically excellent, up-to-date, and informative BayernText teletext pages. > There is a complete listing including parameters from "in area" and also > "out of area" (but with reception in the area) transmitters at > http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf Interesting, thanks. This gives me the overview by region that I lack apart from Baden-Württemberg, Bayern, and the like, as to the modulation in use -- mdr and to some extent WDR do not follow the same pattern as seen in B-W I believe there is a mistake, though, in the data for HH. The guard interval of 1/8 for all frequencies, both VHF and UHF, from one Turm (font too small) does not match the 1/4 used as a general rule throughout germany, and used by all the (UHF) frequencies in the Single-Frequency-Network formed by the other Standort. (The modulation parameters provided in the initial scan file for Lübeck seem to be wrong too -- the one which caught my eye when quickly viewing all de-scanfiles) Even though my original plans to create a comprehensive list of frequencies, transmitter sites, and technical details for each Bundesland have been put on ice, as I don't expect to be doing any travel to these areas in the near future, it will be interesting for me to come up with an overview of available quality in each region, as well as to puzzle over what WDR is doing. I wonder if, in addition to moving from the remaining VHF frequencies, there will be plans in the future to convert to a unified horizontal or vertical polarisation nationally or by region. Though this does not affect tuning data, it is apparently an issue around Nürnberg... barry bouwsma -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)
Moin, moin (as people say in Northern Germany) :) BOUWSMA Barry schrieb: I've just learned that effective 24.Feb, there will be a change made to the channel assignment in the area of Hamburg. This is due to the fact that one existing multiplex is found within the VHF band, which is in the process of being cleared of DVB-T services, moving them to assigned UHF channels, in order to free the VHF band for radio services (DAB/DAB+ and family). Several other areas, such as Bayern, currently make use of VHF frequencies at several transmitter sites. I am not yet aware of what plans exist to change these frequencies... As for certain area in Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia there ahve never been VHF channels in use. Tis applies normally only to area from the first stage of the German DVB-T project. Lower Saxony has recently (November 2008) cleared several channels, like in my area (Brunswick), where there had been an ARD Mux on Ch 8. Now it is on Ch 47. The following diff will add the newly assigned frequency, and remove the old one, with an effective date of 24.Feb. The particular modulation parameters are not confirmed, so I've had to guess based on existing values used elsewhere in the NDR coverage area as well as what generally is used throughout germany. Information for the whole NDR area will normally be found at http://www.dvb-t-nord.de. There is a complete listing including parameters from "in area" and also "out of area" (but with reception in the area) transmitters at http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf So have a look ;) Best regards, Tobias -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
