Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:27 AM, Hans Verkuil hverk...@xs4all.nl wrote: For unmaintained applications the problem is that even those people that have patches for them have no easy way to get them applied, precisely because they are unmaintained. We as v4l-dvb developers don't have the time to make TV apps, but perhaps if we 'adopted' one unmaintained application and just update that whenever we make new features, then that would be very helpful I think. Or perhaps just provide a place for such applications where there is someone who can take community supplied patches and review and apply them. This is the key reason that KernelLabs adopted tvtime - the goal being to: 1. Consolidate all the distro patches floating around 2. Have a source tree that compiles without patches on modern distributions 3. Have a channel for people to submit new patches 4. Make improvements as necessary to make the app just work for most modern tuner cards. The goal is to get the distros to switch over to treating our tree as the official upstream source so that people will finally have a lightweight application for analog tv that just works and ships with their Linux distro by default. Such an application does not have to be in v4l2-utils, it can have its own tree. If the goal is for the LinuxTV group to adopt some of these applications, I would definitely recommend it not be in the v4l-utils tree (for reasons stated in the previous email). that said, I certainly have no objection to it in principle. Anyway, regarding alevt: I believe that the consensus is that it should be moved to v4l2-utils? Or am I wrong? I haven't looked at the alevt code itself but I believe the answer should be based on the following questions: 1. How big is it? Will distros not want to include the package by default because along with a few KB of utilities they also end up with several megabytes of crap that the vast majority of people don't care about? 2. What external dependencies does it have? Right now, v4l-utils is just a few command line tools with minimal dependencies (meaning it is trivial to install in pretty much all environments, including those without X11). If the result is that you would now have to install dozens of packages, then that would be a bad thing. Jamming stuff into v4l-utils should not be seen as some sort of backdoor way to get Linux distributions to include programs that they wouldn't have otherwise. The distributions should see real value in the additional tool. If they value the program, they will package the program if we host it even as a standalone project outside of v4l-utils. Devin -- Devin J. Heitmueller - Kernel Labs http://www.kernellabs.com -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
Hi, On 03/12/2010 08:27 AM, Hans Verkuil wrote: On Thursday 11 March 2010 15:31:32 Devin Heitmueller wrote: On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Douglas Schilling Landgraf dougsl...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/10/2010 02:04 AM, hermann pitton wrote: Hi Hans, both, Am Dienstag, den 09.03.2010, 08:48 +0100 schrieb Hans Verkuil: It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? The second question is whether anyone would object if alevt is moved from dvb-apps to v4l-utils? It is much more appropriate to have that tool in v4l-utils. i wonder that this stays such calm, hopefully a good sign. In fact alevt analog should come with almost every distribution, but the former alevt-dvb, named now only alevt, well, might be ok in some future, is enhanced for doing also dvb-t-s and hence there ATM. Does anyone know of other unmaintained but useful tools that we might merge into v4l-utils? E.g. xawtv perhaps? If for xawtv could be some more care, ships also since close to ever with alevtd, that would be fine, but I'm not sure we are talking about tools anymore in such case, since xawtv4x, tvtime and mpeg4ip ;) for example are also there and unmaintained. I think would be nice to hear a word from Devin, which have been working in tvtime. Devin? Sorry, I've been sick for the last couple of days and not actively on email. I don't think it's a good idea to consolidate applications like xawtv and tvtime into the v4l2-utils codebase. The existing v4l2-utils is nice because it's small and what the packages provides what it says it does - v4l2 *utilities*. I wouldn't consider full blown tv viewing applications to be utilities. The apps in question are currently packaged by multiple distros today as standalone packages. Today distros can decide whether they want the bloat associated with large GUI applications just to get the benefits of a couple of command line utilities. Bundling them together makes that much harder (and would also result in a package with lots of external dependencies on third party libraries). Adding them into v4l2-utils doesn't really solve the real problem - that there are very few people willing to put in the effort to extend/improve these applications (something which, as Douglas pointed out, I'm trying to improve in the case of tvtime). For unmaintained applications the problem is that even those people that have patches for them have no easy way to get them applied, precisely because they are unmaintained. We as v4l-dvb developers don't have the time to make TV apps, but perhaps if we 'adopted' one unmaintained application and just update that whenever we make new features, then that would be very helpful I think. Or perhaps just provide a place for such applications where there is someone who can take community supplied patches and review and apply them. Such an application does not have to be in v4l2-utils, it can have its own tree. Anyway, regarding alevt: I believe that the consensus is that it should be moved to v4l2-utils? Or am I wrong? I'm not in favor of moving alevt into v4l-utils, if there are people who want to pick up its maintenance and host a separate tree for it at linuxtv.org including doing regular tarbal releases for upstream to consume that would seem a good idea to me. Regards, Hans -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
Hi, On 03/11/2010 03:31 PM, Devin Heitmueller wrote: On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Douglas Schilling Landgraf dougsl...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/10/2010 02:04 AM, hermann pitton wrote: Hi Hans, both, Am Dienstag, den 09.03.2010, 08:48 +0100 schrieb Hans Verkuil: It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? The second question is whether anyone would object if alevt is moved from dvb-apps to v4l-utils? It is much more appropriate to have that tool in v4l-utils. i wonder that this stays such calm, hopefully a good sign. In fact alevt analog should come with almost every distribution, but the former alevt-dvb, named now only alevt, well, might be ok in some future, is enhanced for doing also dvb-t-s and hence there ATM. Does anyone know of other unmaintained but useful tools that we might merge into v4l-utils? E.g. xawtv perhaps? If for xawtv could be some more care, ships also since close to ever with alevtd, that would be fine, but I'm not sure we are talking about tools anymore in such case, since xawtv4x, tvtime and mpeg4ip ;) for example are also there and unmaintained. I think would be nice to hear a word from Devin, which have been working in tvtime. Devin? Sorry, I've been sick for the last couple of days and not actively on email. I don't think it's a good idea to consolidate applications like xawtv and tvtime into the v4l2-utils codebase. The existing v4l2-utils is nice because it's small and what the packages provides what it says it does - v4l2 *utilities*. I wouldn't consider full blown tv viewing applications to be utilities. The apps in question are currently packaged by multiple distros today as standalone packages. Today distros can decide whether they want the bloat associated with large GUI applications just to get the benefits of a couple of command line utilities. Bundling them together makes that much harder (and would also result in a package with lots of external dependencies on third party libraries). Adding them into v4l2-utils doesn't really solve the real problem - that there are very few people willing to put in the effort to extend/improve these applications (something which, as Douglas pointed out, I'm trying to improve in the case of tvtime). Ack, What would be good to do IMHO is decide for unmaintained apps like xawtv and alevt if we want to adopt them and if we do, to create separate git trees for them, and become a new upstream including doing regular tarbals releases. Some time ago I did a lot of work on the Fedora xawtv packages and I would be willing to pull such an effort for xawtv. If we start doing this we really should start running some sort of bugtracker on linuxtv.org btw, or ask if we can use bugzilla.kernel.org for this. Regards, Hans -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
Hi, On 03/11/2010 03:14 PM, Douglas Schilling Landgraf wrote: On 03/10/2010 02:04 AM, hermann pitton wrote: Hi Hans, both, Am Dienstag, den 09.03.2010, 08:48 +0100 schrieb Hans Verkuil: It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? I somehow missed the original mail from Hans Verkuil here, so I'm replying here, sorry for messing up the threading. Fixed! Regards, Hans -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Hans de Goede hdego...@redhat.com wrote: Hi, On 03/11/2010 03:31 PM, Devin Heitmueller wrote: On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Douglas Schilling Landgraf dougsl...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/10/2010 02:04 AM, hermann pitton wrote: Hi Hans, both, Am Dienstag, den 09.03.2010, 08:48 +0100 schrieb Hans Verkuil: It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? The second question is whether anyone would object if alevt is moved from dvb-apps to v4l-utils? It is much more appropriate to have that tool in v4l-utils. i wonder that this stays such calm, hopefully a good sign. In fact alevt analog should come with almost every distribution, but the former alevt-dvb, named now only alevt, well, might be ok in some future, is enhanced for doing also dvb-t-s and hence there ATM. Does anyone know of other unmaintained but useful tools that we might merge into v4l-utils? E.g. xawtv perhaps? If for xawtv could be some more care, ships also since close to ever with alevtd, that would be fine, but I'm not sure we are talking about tools anymore in such case, since xawtv4x, tvtime and mpeg4ip ;) for example are also there and unmaintained. I think would be nice to hear a word from Devin, which have been working in tvtime. Devin? Sorry, I've been sick for the last couple of days and not actively on email. I don't think it's a good idea to consolidate applications like xawtv and tvtime into the v4l2-utils codebase. The existing v4l2-utils is nice because it's small and what the packages provides what it says it does - v4l2 *utilities*. I wouldn't consider full blown tv viewing applications to be utilities. The apps in question are currently packaged by multiple distros today as standalone packages. Today distros can decide whether they want the bloat associated with large GUI applications just to get the benefits of a couple of command line utilities. Bundling them together makes that much harder (and would also result in a package with lots of external dependencies on third party libraries). Adding them into v4l2-utils doesn't really solve the real problem - that there are very few people willing to put in the effort to extend/improve these applications (something which, as Douglas pointed out, I'm trying to improve in the case of tvtime). Ack, ACK What would be good to do IMHO is decide for unmaintained apps like xawtv and alevt if we want to adopt them and if we do, to create separate git trees for them, and become a new upstream including doing regular tarbals releases. Some time ago I did a lot of work on the Fedora xawtv packages and I would be willing to pull such an effort for xawtv. Simply creating a tree for an application doesn't really help. At least it needs a commitment to that app to keep it updated. Unless, someone really puts in such an effort, creating a tree doesn't really help, it simplyt adds to the confusion for a normal user as to where he should download his application for his distro, if such a package doesn't exist. Regards, Manu -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
On 03/10/2010 02:04 AM, hermann pitton wrote: Hi Hans, both, Am Dienstag, den 09.03.2010, 08:48 +0100 schrieb Hans Verkuil: It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? The second question is whether anyone would object if alevt is moved from dvb-apps to v4l-utils? It is much more appropriate to have that tool in v4l-utils. i wonder that this stays such calm, hopefully a good sign. In fact alevt analog should come with almost every distribution, but the former alevt-dvb, named now only alevt, well, might be ok in some future, is enhanced for doing also dvb-t-s and hence there ATM. Does anyone know of other unmaintained but useful tools that we might merge into v4l-utils? E.g. xawtv perhaps? If for xawtv could be some more care, ships also since close to ever with alevtd, that would be fine, but I'm not sure we are talking about tools anymore in such case, since xawtv4x, tvtime and mpeg4ip ;) for example are also there and unmaintained. I think would be nice to hear a word from Devin, which have been working in tvtime. Devin? Cheers Douglas -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Douglas Schilling Landgraf dougsl...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/10/2010 02:04 AM, hermann pitton wrote: Hi Hans, both, Am Dienstag, den 09.03.2010, 08:48 +0100 schrieb Hans Verkuil: It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? The second question is whether anyone would object if alevt is moved from dvb-apps to v4l-utils? It is much more appropriate to have that tool in v4l-utils. i wonder that this stays such calm, hopefully a good sign. In fact alevt analog should come with almost every distribution, but the former alevt-dvb, named now only alevt, well, might be ok in some future, is enhanced for doing also dvb-t-s and hence there ATM. Does anyone know of other unmaintained but useful tools that we might merge into v4l-utils? E.g. xawtv perhaps? If for xawtv could be some more care, ships also since close to ever with alevtd, that would be fine, but I'm not sure we are talking about tools anymore in such case, since xawtv4x, tvtime and mpeg4ip ;) for example are also there and unmaintained. I think would be nice to hear a word from Devin, which have been working in tvtime. Devin? Sorry, I've been sick for the last couple of days and not actively on email. I don't think it's a good idea to consolidate applications like xawtv and tvtime into the v4l2-utils codebase. The existing v4l2-utils is nice because it's small and what the packages provides what it says it does - v4l2 *utilities*. I wouldn't consider full blown tv viewing applications to be utilities. The apps in question are currently packaged by multiple distros today as standalone packages. Today distros can decide whether they want the bloat associated with large GUI applications just to get the benefits of a couple of command line utilities. Bundling them together makes that much harder (and would also result in a package with lots of external dependencies on third party libraries). Adding them into v4l2-utils doesn't really solve the real problem - that there are very few people willing to put in the effort to extend/improve these applications (something which, as Douglas pointed out, I'm trying to improve in the case of tvtime). Devin -- Devin J. Heitmueller - Kernel Labs http://www.kernellabs.com -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
On Thursday 11 March 2010 15:31:32 Devin Heitmueller wrote: On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Douglas Schilling Landgraf dougsl...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/10/2010 02:04 AM, hermann pitton wrote: Hi Hans, both, Am Dienstag, den 09.03.2010, 08:48 +0100 schrieb Hans Verkuil: It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? The second question is whether anyone would object if alevt is moved from dvb-apps to v4l-utils? It is much more appropriate to have that tool in v4l-utils. i wonder that this stays such calm, hopefully a good sign. In fact alevt analog should come with almost every distribution, but the former alevt-dvb, named now only alevt, well, might be ok in some future, is enhanced for doing also dvb-t-s and hence there ATM. Does anyone know of other unmaintained but useful tools that we might merge into v4l-utils? E.g. xawtv perhaps? If for xawtv could be some more care, ships also since close to ever with alevtd, that would be fine, but I'm not sure we are talking about tools anymore in such case, since xawtv4x, tvtime and mpeg4ip ;) for example are also there and unmaintained. I think would be nice to hear a word from Devin, which have been working in tvtime. Devin? Sorry, I've been sick for the last couple of days and not actively on email. I don't think it's a good idea to consolidate applications like xawtv and tvtime into the v4l2-utils codebase. The existing v4l2-utils is nice because it's small and what the packages provides what it says it does - v4l2 *utilities*. I wouldn't consider full blown tv viewing applications to be utilities. The apps in question are currently packaged by multiple distros today as standalone packages. Today distros can decide whether they want the bloat associated with large GUI applications just to get the benefits of a couple of command line utilities. Bundling them together makes that much harder (and would also result in a package with lots of external dependencies on third party libraries). Adding them into v4l2-utils doesn't really solve the real problem - that there are very few people willing to put in the effort to extend/improve these applications (something which, as Douglas pointed out, I'm trying to improve in the case of tvtime). For unmaintained applications the problem is that even those people that have patches for them have no easy way to get them applied, precisely because they are unmaintained. We as v4l-dvb developers don't have the time to make TV apps, but perhaps if we 'adopted' one unmaintained application and just update that whenever we make new features, then that would be very helpful I think. Or perhaps just provide a place for such applications where there is someone who can take community supplied patches and review and apply them. Such an application does not have to be in v4l2-utils, it can have its own tree. Anyway, regarding alevt: I believe that the consensus is that it should be moved to v4l2-utils? Or am I wrong? Regards, Hans -- Hans Verkuil - video4linux developer - sponsored by TANDBERG -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
Hi Hans, both, Am Dienstag, den 09.03.2010, 08:48 +0100 schrieb Hans Verkuil: It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? The second question is whether anyone would object if alevt is moved from dvb-apps to v4l-utils? It is much more appropriate to have that tool in v4l-utils. i wonder that this stays such calm, hopefully a good sign. In fact alevt analog should come with almost every distribution, but the former alevt-dvb, named now only alevt, well, might be ok in some future, is enhanced for doing also dvb-t-s and hence there ATM. Does anyone know of other unmaintained but useful tools that we might merge into v4l-utils? E.g. xawtv perhaps? If for xawtv could be some more care, ships also since close to ever with alevtd, that would be fine, but I'm not sure we are talking about tools anymore in such case, since xawtv4x, tvtime and mpeg4ip ;) for example are also there and unmaintained. Cheers, Hermann -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
v4l-utils: i2c-id.h and alevt
It's nice to see this new tree, that should be make it easier to develop utilities! After a quick check I noticed that the i2c-id.h header was copied from the kernel. This is not necessary. The only utility that includes this is v4l2-dbg and that one no longer needs it. Hans, can you remove this? The second question is whether anyone would object if alevt is moved from dvb-apps to v4l-utils? It is much more appropriate to have that tool in v4l-utils. Does anyone know of other unmaintained but useful tools that we might merge into v4l-utils? E.g. xawtv perhaps? Regards, Hans -- Hans Verkuil - video4linux developer - sponsored by TANDBERG -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe linux-media in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
