Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-13 Thread Hans Verkuil
On Saturday 13 March 2010 07:33:57 Hans de Goede wrote:
  To my knowledge the usbvideo driver is probably the least obscure device
  that is still using V4L1.
 
 I think you are confusing the usbvideo driver with the v4l2 usbvision
 driver, which indeed gets used a lot in usb tv devices.

You are correct. I confused those two. Sorry about that.

 
 I think it is ok to drop v4l1 support from tvtime.

I agree.

Regards,

Hans

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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-13 Thread Devin Heitmueller
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 1:33 AM, Hans de Goede hdego...@redhat.com wrote:
 usbvideo

 This actually is a framework for usb video devices a bit like
 gspca one could say. It supports the following devices:

 USB 3com HomeConnect (aka vicam)
 USB IBM (Xirlink) C-it Camera
 USB Konica Webcam support
 USB Logitech Quickcam Messenger

 Of which the Logitech Quickcam Messenger has a gspca subdriver
 now, and is scheduled for removal.

Now that I see the product list, I realize that I actually have a 3com
HomeConnect kicking around in a box.  So if nobody gets around to it,
I could probably kill a few hours and do the conversion (given that
was a fairly popular product at the time).

Or would it be better to convert the products to gpsca (I don't
actually know/understand if that's possible at this point)?

Devin

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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-13 Thread Hans de Goede

Hi,

On 03/13/2010 03:23 PM, Devin Heitmueller wrote:

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 1:33 AM, Hans de Goedehdego...@redhat.com  wrote:

usbvideo


This actually is a framework for usb video devices a bit like
gspca one could say. It supports the following devices:

USB 3com HomeConnect (aka vicam)
USB IBM (Xirlink) C-it Camera
USB Konica Webcam support
USB Logitech Quickcam Messenger

Of which the Logitech Quickcam Messenger has a gspca subdriver
now, and is scheduled for removal.


Now that I see the product list, I realize that I actually have a 3com
HomeConnect kicking around in a box.  So if nobody gets around to it,
I could probably kill a few hours and do the conversion (given that
was a fairly popular product at the time).

Or would it be better to convert the products to gpsca (I don't
actually know/understand if that's possible at this point)?



It would be much better to change it into a gspca subdriver, gspca is
a generic framework for usb webcams, and as such has a lot of code
which all these devices need shared in place, making the subdrivers
quite small, and nice to write as you can focus on the actual
camera specifics instead of on things like getting locking in case of
hot unplug while an app is streaming right.

Regards,

Hans
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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-12 Thread Hans Verkuil
On Friday 12 March 2010 21:11:49 Devin Heitmueller wrote:
 Hello,
 
 I know some months ago, there was some discussion about a few drivers
 which were stragglers and had not been converted from V4L to V4L2.
 
 Do we have a current list of driver which still haven't been converted?

These drivers are still v4l1:

arv
bw-qcam
c-qcam
cpia_pp
cpia_usb
ov511
se401
stradis
stv680
usbvideo
w9966

Some of these have counterparts in gspca these days so possibly some drivers
can be removed by now. Hans, can you point those out?

arv, bw-qcam, c-qcam, cpia_pp and stradis can probably be moved to staging
and if no one steps up then they can be dropped altogether.

According to my notes I should be able to test cpia_usb. I would have to
verify that, though. I think it is only used in a USB microscope. It is
effectively a webcam. I can also test usbvideo (USB 1 TV capture device).
The latter is probably the most important driver that needs converting,
because I think these are not uncommon.

However, I have no time to work on such a driver conversion. But if someone
is seriously willing to put time and effort in that, then I am willing to
mail the hardware.

 I started doing some more tvtime work last night, and I would *love*
 to drop V4L support (and *only* support V4L2 devices), since it would
 make the code much cleaner, more reliable, and easier to test.
 
 If there are only a few obscure webcams remaining, then I'm willing to
 tell those users that they have to stick with whatever old version of
 tvtime they've been using since the last release four years ago.

To my knowledge the usbvideo driver is probably the least obscure device
that is still using V4L1.

Regards,

Hans

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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-12 Thread Devin Heitmueller
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Michael Akey ak...@onid.orst.edu wrote:
 Hans Verkuil wrote:
 These drivers are still v4l1:

 arv
 bw-qcam
 c-qcam
 cpia_pp
 cpia_usb
 ov511
 se401
 stradis
 stv680
 usbvideo
 w9966

 Some of these have counterparts in gspca these days so possibly some
 drivers
 can be removed by now. Hans, can you point those out?

 arv, bw-qcam, c-qcam, cpia_pp and stradis can probably be moved to staging
 and if no one steps up then they can be dropped altogether.


 Does this mean that the bw-qcam driver will be removed in future revisions
 or does this mean it will just never be updated to v4l2?

Hans is suggesting that support for those devices would be dropped
entirely if no developer steps up to convert them to v4l2.

The problem is that supporting the long deprecated API is a burden
that makes it much harder to extend certain aspects of the internal
code.  If we were able to drop those devices, it would be much easier
to improve all the other drivers (of which the *vast* majority have
been converted to v4l2).

It's been over ten years since v4l2 came out.  If nobody has converted
those drivers to v4l2, then it's safe to say it's probably never going
to happen.

Devin

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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-12 Thread Michael Akey

Hans Verkuil wrote:

On Friday 12 March 2010 21:11:49 Devin Heitmueller wrote:
  

Hello,

I know some months ago, there was some discussion about a few drivers
which were stragglers and had not been converted from V4L to V4L2.

Do we have a current list of driver which still haven't been converted?



These drivers are still v4l1:

arv
bw-qcam
c-qcam
cpia_pp
cpia_usb
ov511
se401
stradis
stv680
usbvideo
w9966

Some of these have counterparts in gspca these days so possibly some drivers
can be removed by now. Hans, can you point those out?

arv, bw-qcam, c-qcam, cpia_pp and stradis can probably be moved to staging
and if no one steps up then they can be dropped altogether.
  


Does this mean that the bw-qcam driver will be removed in future 
revisions or does this mean it will just never be updated to v4l2?



According to my notes I should be able to test cpia_usb. I would have to
verify that, though. I think it is only used in a USB microscope. It is
effectively a webcam. I can also test usbvideo (USB 1 TV capture device).
The latter is probably the most important driver that needs converting,
because I think these are not uncommon.

However, I have no time to work on such a driver conversion. But if someone
is seriously willing to put time and effort in that, then I am willing to
mail the hardware.

  

I started doing some more tvtime work last night, and I would *love*
to drop V4L support (and *only* support V4L2 devices), since it would
make the code much cleaner, more reliable, and easier to test.

If there are only a few obscure webcams remaining, then I'm willing to
tell those users that they have to stick with whatever old version of
tvtime they've been using since the last release four years ago.



To my knowledge the usbvideo driver is probably the least obscure device
that is still using V4L1.

Regards,

Hans

  


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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-12 Thread Hans Verkuil
On Friday 12 March 2010 23:20:44 Michael Akey wrote:
 Hans Verkuil wrote:
  On Friday 12 March 2010 21:11:49 Devin Heitmueller wrote:

  Hello,
 
  I know some months ago, there was some discussion about a few drivers
  which were stragglers and had not been converted from V4L to V4L2.
 
  Do we have a current list of driver which still haven't been converted?
  
 
  These drivers are still v4l1:
 
  arv
  bw-qcam
  c-qcam
  cpia_pp
  cpia_usb
  ov511
  se401
  stradis
  stv680
  usbvideo
  w9966
 
  Some of these have counterparts in gspca these days so possibly some drivers
  can be removed by now. Hans, can you point those out?
 
  arv, bw-qcam, c-qcam, cpia_pp and stradis can probably be moved to staging
  and if no one steps up then they can be dropped altogether.

 
 Does this mean that the bw-qcam driver will be removed in future 
 revisions or does this mean it will just never be updated to v4l2?

Removal. At least, that is what I would propose. Greg KH has proposed some time
ago to use the staging tree not only for incoming but also for outgoing drivers.

And drivers that have not seen any development for years and that nobody seems
to be using and where the hardware is obsolete are definitely candidates for
this removal process.

I suspect that the only two drivers that we might need to keep are usbvideo and
cpia_usb. The latter is still used in hardware you can buy today, the same may
also be true of the first, and products supported by the usbvideo driver are
certainly still out there.

If we are indeed left with just two V4L1 drivers that cannot easily be removed,
then we should perhaps try to convert them after all, even though it is hard to
be motivated to do that work.

I definitely agree with Devin that it would be really great to finally remove
the V4L1 support completely from the kernel.

Regards,

Hans

 
  According to my notes I should be able to test cpia_usb. I would have to
  verify that, though. I think it is only used in a USB microscope. It is
  effectively a webcam. I can also test usbvideo (USB 1 TV capture device).
  The latter is probably the most important driver that needs converting,
  because I think these are not uncommon.
 
  However, I have no time to work on such a driver conversion. But if someone
  is seriously willing to put time and effort in that, then I am willing to
  mail the hardware.
 

  I started doing some more tvtime work last night, and I would *love*
  to drop V4L support (and *only* support V4L2 devices), since it would
  make the code much cleaner, more reliable, and easier to test.
 
  If there are only a few obscure webcams remaining, then I'm willing to
  tell those users that they have to stick with whatever old version of
  tvtime they've been using since the last release four years ago.
  
 
  To my knowledge the usbvideo driver is probably the least obscure device
  that is still using V4L1.
 
  Regards,
 
  Hans
 

 
 

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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-12 Thread Mauro Carvalho Chehab
Hans Verkuil wrote:
 On Friday 12 March 2010 21:11:49 Devin Heitmueller wrote:
 Hello,

 I know some months ago, there was some discussion about a few drivers
 which were stragglers and had not been converted from V4L to V4L2.

 Do we have a current list of driver which still haven't been converted?
 
 These drivers are still v4l1:
 
 arv
 bw-qcam
 c-qcam
 cpia_pp
 cpia_usb
 ov511
 se401
 stradis
 stv680
 usbvideo
 w9966

All the above are webcam drivers. I doubt that those drivers would work
with tvtime: this software were meant to test the Vector's deinterlacing
algorithms, so it requires some specific video formats/resolutions found on TV
and require 25 or 30 fps, as far as I remember. For example, It doesn't support
QCIF/QVGA cameras.

If you want to extend tvtime to use webcams, some work is needed. Probably the 
easiest
way would be to use libv4l, that also does the V4L1 conversion, if needed. This 
may
actually make sense even for a few TV cards like em28xx, where you could use a 
bayer
format with a lower color depth and/or lower resolution, in order to allow 
viewing two 
simultaneous streams.

So, I suggest you to just drop V4L1 from tvtime and convert it to use libv4l 
(the conversion
is trivial: just replace open/close/ioctl from the V4L2 driver to the libv4l 
ones). This will
allow you to drop the old V4L1 driver from it, and, if you decide later to 
accept other
resolutions and make it more webcam friendly, you'll just need to allow tvtime 
to accept
other video resolutions and disable the de-interlacing setup if a webcam is 
detected.

-- 

Cheers,
Mauro
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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-12 Thread Devin Heitmueller
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Mauro Carvalho Chehab
mche...@redhat.com wrote:
 All the above are webcam drivers. I doubt that those drivers would work
 with tvtime: this software were meant to test the Vector's deinterlacing
 algorithms, so it requires some specific video formats/resolutions found on TV
 and require 25 or 30 fps, as far as I remember. For example, It doesn't 
 support
 QCIF/QVGA cameras.

Yup, I was indeed aware that tvtime doesn't really work with webcams.
I wanted to see the list of remaining drivers, and now that I see the
list (and also came to the conclusion that they were all webcams), I
feel much more comfortable just dropping V4L1 support.

 If you want to extend tvtime to use webcams, some work is needed. Probably 
 the easiest
 way would be to use libv4l, that also does the V4L1 conversion, if needed. 
 This may
 actually make sense even for a few TV cards like em28xx, where you could use 
 a bayer
 format with a lower color depth and/or lower resolution, in order to allow 
 viewing two
 simultaneous streams.

 So, I suggest you to just drop V4L1 from tvtime and convert it to use libv4l 
 (the conversion
 is trivial: just replace open/close/ioctl from the V4L2 driver to the libv4l 
 ones). This will
 allow you to drop the old V4L1 driver from it, and, if you decide later to 
 accept other
 resolutions and make it more webcam friendly, you'll just need to allow 
 tvtime to accept
 other video resolutions and disable the de-interlacing setup if a webcam is 
 detected.

I have actually been considering converting tvtime to using libv4l for
a while now, as I need it to support cards that use the HM12
pixelformat (such as the HVR-1600).  I wanted to rip out the V4L1
support first to make the conversion more straightforward.

It really isn't my goal to make tvtime support webcams, although they
might just start to work as an unintended side-effect.

Devin

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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-12 Thread Mauro Carvalho Chehab
Devin Heitmueller wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Mauro Carvalho Chehab
 mche...@redhat.com wrote:

 Yup, I was indeed aware that tvtime doesn't really work with webcams.
 I wanted to see the list of remaining drivers, and now that I see the
 list (and also came to the conclusion that they were all webcams), I
 feel much more comfortable just dropping V4L1 support.

Yep. For its target, V4L1 is not needed anymore.

 I have actually been considering converting tvtime to using libv4l for
 a while now, as I need it to support cards that use the HM12
 pixelformat (such as the HVR-1600).  I wanted to rip out the V4L1
 support first to make the conversion more straightforward.
 
 It really isn't my goal to make tvtime support webcams, although they
 might just start to work as an unintended side-effect.

If you take the right decisions with tvtime, you'll end to have it allowing
webcams, even unintentionally.

For example, on a quick brainstorming, I see some interesting features for
the tvtime todo list (just my $0,01 cents):

1) alsa support (undergoing/finished work?);

2) allow adjusting frame rate, to better support environments where the bus 
bandwidth is limited;

3) support for other video formats;

4) a generic control interface (a qv4l2 like interface);

5) support to adjust the resolution based on the screen size (as xawtv does);

6) allow tvtime to record programs;

7) direct access to IR event interface, in order to better work with IR's 
without
needing any extra software like lirc;

8) allow changing video standard without needing to restart tvtime. It is very 
common
on some Countries the usage of two or more simultaneous standard - For example, 
almost
all DVD/STB devices in Brazil outputs in NTSC, while TV is broadcasted in 
PAL-M. As far
as I know, the other Countries where Analog TV is still the main/only broadcast 
standard
have similar issues.

For sure the top priority is Alsa, but, at the end of the day, by handling 
(some) of the
above requirements, its usage with webcams will make more sense, and you won't 
need to
spend any time specifically devoted to webcam support.

Also, assuming that analog TV will end broadcasting some day in the world, the 
usage for
a tvtime-like application will likely be for video surveillance and other 
webcam usages.

So, in brief, I think a webcam support side-effect is a good thing.

-- 

Cheers,
Mauro
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Re: Remaining drivers that aren't V4L2?

2010-03-12 Thread Hans de Goede

Hi,

On 03/12/2010 10:42 PM, Hans Verkuil wrote:

On Friday 12 March 2010 21:11:49 Devin Heitmueller wrote:

Hello,

I know some months ago, there was some discussion about a few drivers
which were stragglers and had not been converted from V4L to V4L2.

Do we have a current list of driver which still haven't been converted?




As Hans Verkuil already said I've been working on steadily converting
v4l1 usb device drivers to gspca sub drivers, removing a lot of
redundant code and making them v4l2.


These drivers are still v4l1:

arv
bw-qcam
c-qcam
cpia_pp



cpia_usb


This one has a gspca subdriver now, and has been marked as
deprecated in 2.6.34, and scheduled for removal.


ov511


This one has a gspca subdriver now, and has been marked as
deprecated in 2.6.34, and scheduled for removal.


se401


Hans Verkuil gave me a camera with such a chip, I've been
meaning to work on this for a while. Note that the v4l1 driver
is completely broken (hanhs the machine) which complicates writing
a v4l2 driver, as I either need to first fix the v4l1 driver,
or just copy do a v4l2 driver based on the info in the v4l1 driver,
without having a driver to compare with.


stradis



stv680


This one has a gspca subdriver now, and has been marked as
deprecated in 2.6.34, and scheduled for removal.


usbvideo


This actually is a framework for usb video devices a bit like
gspca one could say. It supports the following devices:

USB 3com HomeConnect (aka vicam)
USB IBM (Xirlink) C-it Camera
USB Konica Webcam support
USB Logitech Quickcam Messenger

Of which the Logitech Quickcam Messenger has a gspca subdriver
now, and is scheduled for removal.


w9966

Some of these have counterparts in gspca these days so possibly some drivers
can be removed by now. Hans, can you point those out?



See above. Note in order to finish the conversion of drivers to
v4l1 besides time (which can be made every now and then) I really
really need hardware access, so if anyone has one of the usbvideo supported
devices lying around, and is willing to ship it to me, please drop
me a private mail!



arv, bw-qcam, c-qcam, cpia_pp and stradis can probably be moved to staging
and if no one steps up then they can be dropped altogether.



Ack!


According to my notes I should be able to test cpia_usb. I would have to
verify that, though. I think it is only used in a USB microscope. It is
effectively a webcam. I can also test usbvideo (USB 1 TV capture device).
The latter is probably the most important driver that needs converting,
because I think these are not uncommon.



You gave your cpia1 camera to me, so now I have 2 to test with, 1 from
creative and the brandless one from you. Also note that this indeed is
used in microscopes, but also in regular webcams, Either way the cpia1
is supported in gspca now (for the usb version).


However, I have no time to work on such a driver conversion. But if someone
is seriously willing to put time and effort in that, then I am willing to
mail the hardware.



You already did that, you gave me a cpia1, stv0680 and an se401 camera :)


I started doing some more tvtime work last night, and I would *love*
to drop V4L support (and *only* support V4L2 devices), since it would
make the code much cleaner, more reliable, and easier to test.

If there are only a few obscure webcams remaining, then I'm willing to
tell those users that they have to stick with whatever old version of
tvtime they've been using since the last release four years ago.


To my knowledge the usbvideo driver is probably the least obscure device
that is still using V4L1.


I think you are confusing the usbvideo driver with the v4l2 usbvision
driver, which indeed gets used a lot in usb tv devices.

I think it is ok to drop v4l1 support from tvtime.

Regards,

Hans
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