Re: Lisa Office System
That sounds reasonable since Microsoft worked on both Lisa and Macintosh projects. I know Microsoft worked on a version of UNIX for the Lisa (Xenix) but believe it never released it due to the Lisa's short life span. I think I've seen copies floating around. As far as I know, Microsoft's GUI efforts in the early years were based more on Xerox's STAR work than on Apple Lisa work. As such, Microsoft's GUI work was not really a copy of Apple's GUI work, thoght similarities do exist. Microsoft hired several ex-Xexox STAR people for its PC-based GUI (...) This is true. Charles Simonyi and Scott MacGregor are examples of Xerox PARC engineers that got hired at Microsoft. I would say that Microsoft's GUI was based much more on Macintosh than Lisa. Windows 1.0 [1] had many similarities to Mac's System both interface-wise (for example, Get Info menu option, the look of caption-less dialog boxes, etc.) and under the hood (function names bear uncanny resemblance to those of Macintosh System). Prerelease versions of Windows were even more similar, having black pointer and overlapping windows. [2][3] (...) which was announced in 1981 but did not ship as Windows 1.0 until I believe 1985 or so. Windows was announced in November 1983, after Lisa and before Macintosh (although Microsoft has definitely known Macintosh for a long while at that time). The delay between the announcement and release (November 1985) is widely believed to be a marketing ploy to kill other GUIs which might have become popular at that time (GEM [4], VisiOn [5]). Since everybody heard that Windows from Microsoft will be coming, nobody wanted to risk getting involved into a GUI from a lesser-known company (Microsoft back then had already quite a reputation for its programming languages and IBM PC's DOS). You also must factor in IBM's GUI work here too which was occuring at this timeframe too. This was called SAA (system application architecture) by IBM and the GUI component of SAA was called CUI (common user interface). I did not research IBM's GUI development in as much detail as I would love to, but I think it all happened later. First OS/2 1.1 with GUI (joint creation of Microsoft and IBM) was released as late as in 1988. Also, I believe it was called CUA (Common User Architecture). Note that IBM had a name for everything it did - made copyright and tademarking easier for them. The CUI had a feature called MDI (multiple document interface) which was the core interface element for Microsoft Windows. MDI differed radically from Apple's GUI architecture. That's true. MDI model gives an application a master window, and child windows (documents) can only be moved/resized within that window. This is very different from Mac OS, where there is no master window (instead, there is a master menu), and child windows can be moved and interleaved freely on the screen. In my personal opinion MDI was one of the worst choices I've seen, Microsoft tried to back off from it already in 1995 (it was recommended in the official guidelines not to use MDI), but rather unsuccessfully, as for example Photoshop still uses it. MDI results in completely different usage patterns -- most users of Windows have their applications zoomed to full-screen and switch between them using the taskbar. On the other hand, there's less clutter on the screen, and I know Mac users have sometimes the problem with that (hence all the Hide and Hide Others options that are not really necessary on Windows). Marcin Wichary [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be the person to ask about this stuff since he's very knowledgable about the different GUIs. Thanks. I am still trying to untangle this mess -- everyone seems to have a different version of GUI history. [1] http://www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/guidebook/interfaces/windows/win10/ win101 [2] http://www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/guidebook/articles/historical/ microsoftwindows [3] http://www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/guidebook/articles/historical/ microsoftdoeswindows [4] http://www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/guidebook/articles/historical/ romancingaclonegemsmanyfacets [5] http://www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/guidebook/articles/historical/ aguidedtourofvision Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive:
Re: Lisa Office System and GUI
And the following Lines are very interesting, cause Jef Raskin didn't agree with Bruce Horn's notes, so a very very very interesting discussion began and there you can read some remarkable facts, who cloned what (or even copied from whom) and then tried to tell the rest of the world that something revolutionary new has been invented. To put some things into perspective... Apple copied some stuff from Microsoft Windows as well, for example tabs, which appeared in Windows 95 first -- or even in some Windows 3.x apps -- and then later in Mac OS 8. The whole concept of Exposé is said to have been researched in Microsoft before Panther (but this might be as well an overstatement... or the case of parallel research on similar topics). And while Microsoft might've started on a wrong foot, some human-computer interaction experts believe now that Microsoft innovates in GUI and UI fields much more than Apple. For example, you can routinely see many Microsoft employees at the biggest conferences in the field, while Apple people are sadly absent. Also, the whole Mac OS X is considered very conservative, and dock the biggest GUI blunder in ages. Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Lisa Office System and GUI
Marcin, I am aware of Raskin and Horn's Apple GUI commentary. It has lots of good information. There was lots of good work done in this area by Apple. Though many GUI aspects were not original to Apple, Apple did pioneer a few areas and also improved many others. Concerning the Lisa's icon-based GUI, Horn told me many years ago that he actually originated this when he started his Finder work on the Macintosh and showed Bill Atkinson his early Finder prototype. Atkinson then changed the Lisa's GUI from a dialog-based UI to the icon-based UI. Also, I have not forgotten about scanning the Lisa ads I have. I just moved to a new house and have not had time to do this scanning. Will do so by the next week. - David Craig -- From: macmoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LisaList lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com Subject: Re: Lisa Office System and GUI Date: Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 2:31 AM Hi David, very interesting, in deed ! I also recommend this article (hope the link is still alive) published by Glen Sanford with permission of Bruce Horn and Jef Raskin. You can find there some remarkable details between the lines of the 5 page dialogue !!! (Copyright 1996 by Bruce Horn and Jef Raskin. Used by permission. Source: www.apple-history.com 2004) ...Where It All Began For more than a decade now, I've listened to the debate about where the Macintosh user interface came from. Most people assume it came directly from Xerox, after Steve Jobs went to visit Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). This fact is reported over and over, by people who don't know better (and also by people who should!). Unfortunately, it just isn't true - there are some similarities between the Apple interface and the various interfaces on Xerox systems, but the differences are substantial And the following Lines are very interesting, cause Jef Raskin didn't agree with Bruce Horn's notes, so a very very very interesting discussion began and there you can read some remarkable facts, who cloned what (or even copied from whom) and then tried to tell the rest of the world that something revolutionary new has been invented. Unfortunately nearly 99% of all SchWINdoof-users believe that Pro-Microsoft fairytale today. Cause they don't know. I have to translate: the word SchWINdoof is a german expression, which consits of 3 mixed parts: Sch... (for the german word of shit) SchWIN... (for the german word of swindler) WIN (the only winner in the 90ies Apple vs. Microsoft has been Billy with a very strange working justice, we all know) doof (means silly or stupid. This is what you become, when you use MS-Software every day, scientists say) I hope, Dan will not kick off me from the List, due to this words. If somebody doesn't agree with that, just keep in mind: Homour is a wide wide field, with some sharp stones in it. But I believe there are similar expressions in every language around the world. I saw some similarities in a modified spot in U.K. Where do you want to go today was changed in Where can we go today? With a the word can on a papertray... :-))) And another short anecdote, I found in the web (don't know, whether Roger Ebert did really say that): Life is too short to use anything but a Mac. -- Roger Ebert To get back into reality: here's the link, concerning who copied what, and what who invented new: www.apple-history.com/support_files/gui_horn1 or try www.apple-history.com and search then for GUI in the year 1984 or history This site is always in construction and there are always modifications. If you cannot find that, just give a short note and I will send you the text by mail. It's worth reading it. David, you should perhaps remember, cause there are also this lines: ...David Craig, a computer history buff, asks if I have the memo on the design of the one-button mouse. I don't know, someday I may have time to go through my papers and find out greetings TOM from Bavaria more humour ? Check this: www.deschler-web.de/Bilder/gaids.jpg In a world without walls or fences, who needs windows or gates? Am 09.01.2005 um 08:08 schrieb Shirl: ...and he [Bill Gates / Microsfot] needed several years to copy GUI - WOW ! As far as I know, Microsoft's GUI efforts in the early years were based more on Xerox's STAR work than on Apple Lisa work. As such, Microsoft's GUI work was not really a copy of Apple's GUI work, thoght similarities do exist. ... -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com
Re: Lisa Office System
Marcin, I did not research IBM's GUI development in as much detail as I would love to, but I think it all happened later. First OS/2 1.1 with GUI (joint creation of Microsoft and IBM) was released as late as in 1988. My undrstanding is IBM investigated an icon-based GUI _before_ there was a Lisa or Macintosh. This interface was called DATALAND. The Lisa GUI history paper by Perkins talks about this a bit. - David Craig -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Lisa Office System and GUI
Marcin, The field of GUI design seems to be full of creativie copying and alterations ans originality. Many many many people are involved in this area and they learn from each other. At least that is my impression. I think this behavior is very good since it provides innovations which hopefully end up making computers easier to use by their regular users. The only regret I have about this area is the WIMP (windows/icons/mouse pointer) interface is still around. There must be something better than this. I know efforts have been made to develop the WIMP successor, but these seemed to have failed due to WIMP's hegemony in the computing world UI. - David Craig -- From: Marcin Wichary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LisaList lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com Subject: Re: Lisa Office System and GUI Date: Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 3:13 AM And the following Lines are very interesting, cause Jef Raskin didn't agree with Bruce Horn's notes, so a very very very interesting discussion began and there you can read some remarkable facts, who cloned what (or even copied from whom) and then tried to tell the rest of the world that something revolutionary new has been invented. To put some things into perspective... Apple copied some stuff from Microsoft Windows as well, for example tabs, which appeared in Windows 95 first -- or even in some Windows 3.x apps -- and then later in Mac OS 8. The whole concept of Exposé is said to have been researched in Microsoft before Panther (but this might be as well an overstatement... or the case of parallel research on similar topics). And while Microsoft might've started on a wrong foot, some human-computer interaction experts believe now that Microsoft innovates in GUI and UI fields much more than Apple. For example, you can routinely see many Microsoft employees at the biggest conferences in the field, while Apple people are sadly absent. Also, the whole Mac OS X is considered very conservative, and dock the biggest GUI blunder in ages. Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Lisa Office System and GUI
Shirl wrote: The only regret I have about this area is the WIMP (windows/icons/mouse pointer) interface is still around. There must be something better than this. I know efforts have been made to develop the WIMP successor, but these seemed to have failed due to WIMP's hegemony in the computing world UI. The closest, I'd imagine, is the OpenCroquet project... http://www.opencroquet.org/ -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Lisa Office System
My undrstanding is IBM investigated an icon-based GUI _before_ there was a Lisa or Macintosh. This interface was called DATALAND. The Lisa GUI history paper by Perkins talks about this a bit. I think you mean PictureWorld... (Dataland was the one from M.I.T.) True, this one was from 1980, although I never got to read the paper [1] -- anyone knows where it can be found? Apple actually confirmed that it used some of the ideas from PictureWorld, although I was under the impression that it was just a one-off research, and the further work on SAA/CUA was not its direct continuation. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. [1] Schild, W., Power, L., and Karnaugh, M. PICTUREWORLD: A Concept for Future Office Systems, IBM Research Report RC-8384, July 30, 1980. Marcin Wichary e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary Attached w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui Graphical User Interface gallery w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com 10 years of Being Boring w:\ www.usability.pl Usability.pl -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Lisa Office System versions.
On 8 Jan 2005, at 14:07, Marcin Wichary wrote: It wasn't my intention to originally ask for copies of software, just for information. Not sure if the former is even allowed on this list -- however, since Lisa software is 20++ years old, I personally think of it now in terms of preservation, and not breaching the copyright. Anyway, I'd *die* for copies of the following: - Lisa software (LisaCalc, Write, etc.) compatible with Lisa OS 2.0, - Lisa OS and Lisa software 1.x. Anyone has those...? It'd help me immensely in my research. In order to keep Apple's lawyers happy, we probably should make it quite clear that neither LEM nor this list condones software piracy. People who ask for copies of 20-year old software on this list are VERY NAUGHTY BOYS or GIRLS, and deserve to have their bottoms smacked. I know that no-one will respond on-list to such requests, will they? OK? Stuart (Not wishing to step on the toes of the LisaList nanny, but trying to save Dan from some stupid litigious Apple lawyer. Remember, it was Apple who stopped the Mac512 site distributing almost as ancient Mac s/w a couple of years ago, fortunately just after I'd collected it all - all being a relative statement since it easily fits on one CD, let the reader understand.) -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
Re: Lisa Office System
Macmoni: There have been some developer systems, too. These were not available for custom users, but apple supported selected developers with a (or even several) Lisas and software. You are correct. Apple did provide pre-release versions of Lisa software to selected individuals outside of Apple for beta testing purposes. I was never involved with this testing but know of several people who were. This included the Lisa Office System, Lisa Workshop (the development system for the Lisa), and the Lisa-to-Macintosh Migration Kit. wrote, that even Micro[soft] Billy got a Lisa from Apple That sounds reasonable since Microsoft worked on both Lisa and Macintosh projects. I know Microsoft worked on a version of UNIX for the Lisa (Xenix) but believe it never released it due to the Lisa's short life span. Microsoft also worked on a set of data conversion programs for the Lisa-to-Macintosh Migration kit so that Lisa documents could be converted to Macintosh documents. This included LisaWrite to Microsoft Word and LisaCalc to Microsoft Excel or Multiplan. Even if Apple did not provide Microsoft with Lisas, I assume Microsoft would have just bought several. An aside ... One interesting and little know fact about Microsoft and their Macintosh programs is Microsoft originally used an internal development system for its Macintosh programming. This system was never released to outsiders for their Macintosh work. This was a DEC VAX based system whose main language was C with a bit of 68000 assembler support too. Microsoft did not use Apple's Lisa Workshop for its Macintosh progamming as most other Macintosh developers did. Microsoft's development system for the Macintosh produced a variant of p-code (p=pseudo) which allowed them to create object code for a single platform (the p-machine) and then have just a p-code interpreter running on the host computer. I do not believe Microsoft uses p-machine technology today for its programming efforts since p-code is slower than normal machine code. ...and he [Bill Gates / Microsfot] needed several years to copy GUI - WOW ! As far as I know, Microsoft's GUI efforts in the early years were based more on Xerox's STAR work than on Apple Lisa work. As such, Microsoft's GUI work was not really a copy of Apple's GUI work, thoght similarities do exist. Microsoft hired several ex-Xexox STAR people for its PC-based GUI which was announced in 1981 but did not ship as Windows 1.0 until I believe 1985 or so. I assume Microsoft did study the Apple GUI efforts and use some of these ideas for their GUI work. You also must factor in IBM's GUI work here too which was occuring at this timeframe too. This was called SAA (system application architecture) by IBM and the GUI component of SAA was called CUI (common user interface). Note that IBM had a name for everything it did - made copyright and tademarking easier for them. The CUI had a feature called MDI (multiple document interface) which was the core interface element for Microsoft Windows. MDI differed radically from Apple's GUI architecture. Marcin Wichary [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be the person to ask about this stuff since he's very knowledgable about the different GUIs. - David Craig -- From: macmoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LisaList lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com Subject: Lisa Office System Date: Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 12:55 PM Hi, a short remark concerning Lisa OS. There have been some developer systems, too. These were not available for custom users, but apple supported selected developers with a (or even several) Lisas and software. Here's the picture of such a software disk: http://www.deschler-web.de/Bilder/Diskette.JPG P.S. Somewhere in the web I read an article a few month ago, where they wrote, that even Micro Billy got a Lisa from Apple. Don't know, whether that is true, but it's in deed remarkable!!! ...and he needed several years to copy GUI - WOW ! -- LisaList is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and... Shop buy.com and save. http://lowendmac.com/ad/buy.com.html Support Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html LisaList info: http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html -- AOL users, remove mailto:; Send list messages to: mailto:lisalist@mail.maclaunch.com To unsubscribe, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For digest mode, email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscription questions: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/lisalist%40mail.maclaunch.com/ iPod Accessories for Less at 1-800-iPOD.COM Fast Delivery, Low Price, Good Deal www.1800ipod.com
