[WSG Announce] [ADMIN] WSG Conditions update

[Peter Firminger]

This is a one-way list for WSG Announcements

The WSG conditions have been updated as some members seem to have not
actually read the conditions when joining the group. Nothing has actually
changed in the mechanism, it has just been made more prominent in the
conditions.

http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/


READ THIS! 

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-

It previously read (from a December 2003 archive):
http://web.archive.org/web/20031205021558/http:/webstandardsgroup.org/join/


Posts to the discussion list will be archived by mail-archive.com. Email
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-

This is not open for discussion. Please do not respond on-list. The future
of the use of mail-archive will be discussed by the core team later this
month.

Peter



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Re: [WSG] When is use of absolute units acceptable?

[Lachlan Hunt]

Terrence Wood wrote:

On 10/09/2006, at 7:34 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Firstly, pixels are not absolute units, they are defined as relative 
units.  Although this is a very common misconception, try not to get 
confused about the terminology.


I thought the definition of px as a relative unit was an error see: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0187


That e-mail seems to point out that pixels are relative units in CSS and 
the proposed erratum relates to a WCAG checkpoint that failed to 
recognise this fact.  If it were an error in CSS, the issue probably 
would have been raised on www-style and recent drafts of CSS 2.1 would 
reflect that.  But that is not the case, pixels are still defined as 
relative units.


P.S. I just want to point out that, in my previous post, wherever I 
referred the the 'en' unit, I meant 'ex' instead.  There is currently no 
'en' unit defined in CSS.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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[WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[Lynne Pope]

 Getting off topic for Elle (who I hope has had enough ideas now to help with the decision), I'm going to add some comments about Wordpress.
Quoting Chris Williams :> Don't want to come off as the WP zealot here, but some of the busiest blogs> in the world are run on WP...  It has the horsepower...Quoting Lawrence: 
But does it have the horsepower for 20,000+ articles ? (With dynamic caching)
If so.. where do I get the bits and pieces to customise it to do exactly that ?The import scripts I'm using do correctly place the data. It's just the outputand polling of the DB takes an awful long time.
Worpdress is highly configurable and can handle large, busy blogs. BUT none of the freely available caching plugins is worth bothering with. If you want decent caching, you have to write your own. I like Wordpress for some uses, and use it as a CMS BUT would never want to manage thousands of articles with it simply because of the lack of structure in the backend. In that regard, it really shows itself to be a blog, not a system designed for managing content.
Like everything, its a matter of choosing the tool best suited for the job in hand. Regards,Lynne 

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[WSG] jumping content

[Taco Fleur]

Title: Website design - Pacific Fox



We have some jumping content on http://development.yellaterra.com.au:92/products/car-performance/products-results.cfm?modelIdentity=21&btnSubmit.x=82&btnSubmit.y=11 the "Matching products" div in the 
middle.
 
I've read http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html but can't seem to get my head around the 
fix.
Is anyone able to provide a direct fix for this, or point to a 
document that explains it in layman 
terms?
 
Thanks.
 
 

Kind 
regards,Taco 
Fleur 


Pacific 
Foxfree call 
1800 032 982 or mobile 0421 851 786 — fax 07 3414 
6464, international +61 7 3325 5103www.pacificfox.com.au an 
industry leader with commercial experience since 1994 … 
our 
services: 

  
  online, 
  print, marketing & information 
  technology
  
  website, 
  branding, logo, business cards, letterheads
  
  hosting, 
  e-commerce, domain names, sms solutions and web 
strategy

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RE: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[Chris Williams]

There are a number of WP caching plug-ins, and I'm told they work quite
well.  I don't use them [yet], but I know they are in use on sites like
US magazine (that gets hammered every time Brittany gets pregnant) and
the NY Times (that gets hammered anytime...) and they report excellent
results.

Also remember, it's just SQL, a known technology.  I've been around the
database business for 25 years, and I can assure you, you can tune SQL
to meet almost any demand.  Throw indexes and/or memory at SQL and you
can solve almost any performance problem.  20,000 entries in a SQL table
is really not a lot... you really should be able to make this more than
fast enough.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

But does it have the horsepower for 20,000+ articles ? (With dynamic
caching)

If so.. where do I get the bits and pieces to customise it to do exactly
that ?


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Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[absalom]

Quoting Chris Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Don't want to come off as the WP zealot here, but some of the busiest blogs
> in the world are run on WP...  It has the horsepower...

But does it have the horsepower for 20,000+ articles ? (With dynamic caching)

If so.. where do I get the bits and pieces to customise it to do exactly that ?
The import scripts I'm using do correctly place the data. It's just the output
and polling of the DB takes an awful long time.

Yes, I love WP as well, but I just can't seem to get it accessible *and*
scalable to client needs. Drupal scales nicely, but overkill for what I'm
looking for.

Any ideas ?

Thanks

Lawrence Meckan
Absalom Media
http://www.absalom.biz


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RE: [WSG] blogging about teaching web design

[Adam Burmister \(DSL AK\)]

I'm quite surprised by your students home-work assignment questions in
your second part.

I would have though kids learning web-dev these days would find it hard
to find resources/tutorials that use out of fashion tags such as 
and inline styles.

My favorite demonstration of good XHTML/CSS design is to use my mobile
phone to display a site I've done - this is usually to managers and PM's
- it's not as important as screen-readers (arguably) but never less a
good example of why we do use standards and best practices.

Keep up the good work. My uni papers (2 years ago) that touched the
subject of web design (CS degree, so not many) we're rather lacking, so
it's good to see some hard-core people out there doing things.

- A

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, 11 September 2006 11:18 a.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] blogging about teaching web design

Hello group. I just wanted to let you all know that I am blogging
about my experience as a section instructor for the Intro to Web
Design and Programming course at Cornell [1]. My 2 posts so far are
available here:

http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/01/teaching-web-design-part-1/

http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/09/teaching-web-design-part-2/

Ideally I should have a new entry up each week.

I hope this is useful to anyone on the list involved in education. The
demographics of the class would be almost entirely undergraduates from
freshman to senior, most with little or no knowledge of computer
programming.

[1] http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/

-- 
-- 
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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RE: [WSG] blogging about teaching web design

[Jamie Cooper]

Hi,

Thanks...this looks great :)

Regards,
Cooper 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, 11 September 2006 9:18 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] blogging about teaching web design

Hello group. I just wanted to let you all know that I am blogging about my
experience as a section instructor for the Intro to Web Design and
Programming course at Cornell [1]. My 2 posts so far are available here:

http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/01/teaching-web-design-part-1/

http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/09/teaching-web-design-part-2/

Ideally I should have a new entry up each week.

I hope this is useful to anyone on the list involved in education. The
demographics of the class would be almost entirely undergraduates from
freshman to senior, most with little or no knowledge of computer
programming.

[1] http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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[WSG] blogging about teaching web design

[Christian Montoya]

Hello group. I just wanted to let you all know that I am blogging
about my experience as a section instructor for the Intro to Web
Design and Programming course at Cornell [1]. My 2 posts so far are
available here:

http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/01/teaching-web-design-part-1/

http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/09/teaching-web-design-part-2/

Ideally I should have a new entry up each week.

I hope this is useful to anyone on the list involved in education. The
demographics of the class would be almost entirely undergraduates from
freshman to senior, most with little or no knowledge of computer
programming.

[1] http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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Re: [WSG] When is use of absolute units acceptable?

[Rimantas Liubertas]

I thought the definition of px as a relative unit was an error see:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0187



But there is this:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0188.html :

The whole topic is a red herring. It's ultimately a user and user-agent
issue. If Working Group members could rid themselves of the psychosis that
IT DOESN'T WORK IN INTERNET EXPLORER FOR WINDOWS, HENCE IT DOESN'T WORK
FOR ANYONE, we'd be much better off. It is up to the user to adjust font
size. If their browser or device won't let them do that, they need to
choose a better browser or device. This does not excuse authors from any
responsibility whatsoever, but it does excuse them from *ultimate*
responsibility.


I do not always agree with Joe Clark, but I do agree with his view on
this issue...


Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[Bruce]

Quote:
"> MT, Expression and WP, whilst functional for blogs *and* accessible,

don't have the processing grunt of something like Drupal/CivicSpace..
which remains overkill even for a CMS."


As the original one recommending the above, I would say this thread is going 
too far and becoming pointless, as I can only say the above is utter 
nonsense. Now everyone will jump in and defend their "favorite: especially 
those with a vested interest in defending their own.


Opinions opinions, all entitled to them, but this will go noplace..
You are entitled to my opinion though ;)

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign Solutions


- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org


Don't want to come off as the WP zealot here, but some of the busiest 
blogs

in the world are run on WP...  It has the horsepower...


From: Absalom Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

MT, Expression and WP, whilst functional for blogs *and* accessible,
don't have the processing grunt of something like Drupal/CivicSpace..
which remains overkill even for a CMS.




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Re: [WSG] When is use of absolute units acceptable?

[Nick Roper]

Terrence | Lachlan | Lea

Many thanks for the feedback and references - most useful.

Cheers,

Nick

--
Nick Roper


Quoting Terrence Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:



On 10/09/2006, at 7:34 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Firstly, pixels are not absolute units, they are defined as  
relative units.  Although this is a very common misconception, try  
not to get confused about the terminology.


I thought the definition of px as a relative unit was an error see:  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0187



kind regards
Terrence Wood.



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Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[Chris Williams]

Title: Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org



Forgot to mention that my site was achieved without modifying core WP code.  It’s all a “theme” and one small plug-in (about 30 lines of code).

From: Chris Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

Second, WP is not customizable?  Ummm, it’s open-source... Customize to your hearts’ content.  See my site: http://clwill.com, tell me if it looks like WP?  But it’s all WP, top to bottom.  All searchable, all in a CMS.  All free...





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Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[Chris Williams]

Don't want to come off as the WP zealot here, but some of the busiest blogs
in the world are run on WP...  It has the horsepower...

> From: Absalom Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org
> 
> MT, Expression and WP, whilst functional for blogs *and* accessible,
> don't have the processing grunt of something like Drupal/CivicSpace..
> which remains overkill even for a CMS.



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Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[Chris Williams]

Title: Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org



The comments about joomla vs. wordpress are simply wrong.

First, it’s an article about “how to get wordpress to work inside joomla” and why that’s hard.  Duh...  As the old joke goes: if it hurts when you do that, don’t do that.

Second, WP is not customizable?  Ummm, it’s open-source... Customize to your hearts’ content.  See my site: http://clwill.com, tell me if it looks like WP?  But it’s all WP, top to bottom.  All searchable, all in a CMS.  All free...

Third, the list of things it can’t do?  Ummm... My site does them all, I believe??

Finally, I see from your sig, that you might have reason to support Joomla, as the operator of the Joomla shack, and someone who makes a living off it... :)

From: Barrie North <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

Thoughts on Wordpress
http://www.compassdesigns.net/joomla-blog/joomla-reviews/why-you-want-to-use-joomla-instead-of-wordpress.html
(not quite on topic, a post about the wordpress tool for Joomla. Regardless, Joomla is designed to be extended, I would argue WP is not)

Barrie North
www.joomlashack.com  
www.compassdesigns.net  
Phone: (802) 291-3973
Fax: (802) 609-0427
World Class Professional Web Services with Joomla
Read the Joomla Blog
www.compassdesigns.net/joomla-blog  





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Re: [WSG] When is use of absolute units acceptable?

[Terrence Wood]

On 10/09/2006, at 7:34 PM, Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Firstly, pixels are not absolute units, they are defined as  
relative units.  Although this is a very common misconception, try  
not to get confused about the terminology.


I thought the definition of px as a relative unit was an error see:  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0187



kind regards
Terrence Wood.



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Re: [WSG] Re: [WD]: Rethinking Font Size 76%

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Ignore this thread. I sent a response to the wrong list :-)

Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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[WSG] Re: [WD]: Rethinking Font Size 76%

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Rimantas Liubertas wrote:

I am still waiting for the research, showing how many of "majority of
 the planet's web users" have an idea where they can change "their" 
defaults...


I'm waiting too, but I'd like such a research to cover _all_ web users,
and I'd like to reverse the question. I have no idea what the result
would be or what to use it for, but it would be interesting.

Somehow I got the feeling that web designers know best what is suits 
majority of the users -- it's their job, after all.


I hope they know what they're doing - regardless of what title they use.
After all: knowledge is more important than titles - regardless of what
field one's working in. I think that's why we discuss these things.


And, yes, it's ok to size text in pixels.


Of course it is, since all browsers can change or ignore text size -
regardless of unit. Being ok doesn't mean it's a good idea though.

---

My position is that everything starts at 100% - whatever that might be.
Thus, I usually declare 'font-size: 100%' on the first, outer, element
that can take font-size - which depends on what type of layout I'm
creating. This means: it isn't necessarily html and/or body I declare
font-size base on, since some layouts require that I can pick up the
browser's own default for those elements.

An occasional downsizing further into a document is ok - I think, but it
shouldn't matter significantly if a user overrides any font size I
declare - anywhere.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no



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Re: [WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[Absalom Media]

Lynne Pope wrote:
> I tend to agree with Bruce,
>> Movable Type
>> Expression Engine
>> Wordpress
> 
> Don't touch either Joomla or Mambo as neither of them meets your needs.
> Neither are accessible "out-of-the-box' and neither can validate as
> XHTML Strict as no matter what your template is, there is too much
> hardcoding of inappropriate tables and other unneccessary rubbish.
> 
> Drupal and CivicSpace are probably overkill for your needs.
> 
> If you site is primarily a blog, look at blogging scripts. Very few CMS
> have robust blogging features. If you are new to CMS software the very
> last thing you need is to have to learn how to hack something to make it
> work for you. Look for whatever is the closest match to your needs that
> has good documentation and an active user forum to help you when you
> have questions.
> 
> Definitely don't touch Xaraya. I use it and love it, but it is a
> framework on which you can build a CMS, it is not an out-of-the-box
> solution. While some people get by with the contributed modules, very
> few of these render as XHTML and editing modules is not a task for
> people who are new to either CMS or coding.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> Lynne

Second what Lynne says.. Joomla, Mambo and the other Mambo variants
don't provide out-of-box strict accessibility, and even if they did,
that accessibility would not flow onto any or all of the third party
functionality flowing around for these two systems.  I develop in these
systems and after retrofits for 2 years, it's becoming a tad passe to
have the retrofits only affect core functionality. The core code and how
it's structured in M/J remains fundamentally flawed against
accessibility from where I stand.

MT, Expression and WP, whilst functional for blogs *and* accessible,
don't have the processing grunt of something like Drupal/CivicSpace..
which remains overkill even for a CMS.

In that light, there is nothing in the mid-range CMS/AMS sphere as the
major products in the midrange (Mambo, Joomla, Nukes and the like) don't
come up to grade.

Lawrence Meckan

-- 
Lawrence Meckan

Absalom Media
Mob: (04) 1047 9633
ABN: 49 286 495 792
http://www.absalom.biz


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Re: [WSG CMS] Strict CMS

[Tee Peng]

On Sep 10, 2006, at 12:30 AM, Lynne Pope wrote:If you site is primarily a blog, look at blogging scripts. Very few CMS have robust blogging features. If you are new to CMS software the very last thing you need is to have to learn how to hack something to make it work for you. Look for whatever is the closest match to your needs that has good documentation and an active user forum to help you when you have questions. How come nobody mentions Etomite? http://www.etomite.orgI was hestitate to jump in for recommendation as my knowledge of CMS is very little. For two years I was looking for a CMS that can do validate strict markup, tried Mambo, Drupal and Joolma, gave up half way. Few months ago I learned about Etomite, after spending sometimes on forum's archive, I decided to give it try and really like it.For someone who knows very little of PHP, I find Etomite's learning curve quite easy. The core of this beast is the snippets and chunks, and there is no Etomite language you need to learn like with Wordpress and Textpattern ( which I was learning now and actually have difficult to grab the concept).I developed the etomite site like I do with nomal CSS layout, the only difficulty I found was to modify existing snippet to suit my needs, but that is only because I know too little of _javascript_ and PHP.There is an interesting thread about Etomte as CMS framework. http://www.etomite.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5720One of the developer said: Etomite is very flexible, with developers in mind rather than portal users...I am actually not sure if this is a good thing, becaues I thougt most companies that want CMS are because they want to be able to add/edit their websites. But I really don't know enough to make any comment on this.A client site I was working on these past month is powered by Etomite and XHTML strict validated.If you are intersted, please examine my codes. Becaue the site hasn't completed yet so I don't have knowledge if it will be easy for client to do the maintenance with Etomite admin panel. decorsit.comBest, tee
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Re: [WSG] When is use of absolute units acceptable?

[Lachlan Hunt]

Nick Roper wrote:
For example, suppose I have a maincontent div in which other content 
blocks will be positioned. Is it acceptable to set padding on the 
main div, or margins on contained divs, in absolute units - say 30px 
- on the basis that this shouldn't affect the content itself (or 
could it?)


Firstly, pixels are not absolute units, they are defined as relative 
units.  Although this is a very common misconception, try not to get 
confused about the terminology.


Relative units are defined as such because their size is relative to 
something else.  The units em and en are relative to the font size, 
percentages (for width, height, margin, padding and border) are relative 
to the container size and pixels in CSS, as opposed to device pixels, 
are relative to the nominal viewing distance of the device.


Absolute units are a fixed size and are not relative to anything.  They 
include millimetres, centimetres and inches.  I believe the 
misconception occurs because (unlike em, en and %) px are not relative 
to something that the user can easily change like their window size or 
font size.


Secondly, yes it is ok to set sizes in pixels.  However, you must be 
careful not to use pixels in a way that restricts the user's ability to 
make the design comfortable for themselves.  For instance, if the use of 
pixels affects a user's ability to increase the font size or, in extreme 
cases, use a narrower viewport than your own because doing so can 
significantly break the design or makes it difficult to read, then you 
should consider a different technique.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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[WSG CMS] Re: digest for cms@webstandardsgroup.org

[Lynne Pope]

I tend to agree with Bruce,> Movable Type> _expression_ Engine> WordpressDon't touch either Joomla or Mambo as neither of them meets your needs. Neither are accessible "out-of-the-box' and neither can validate as XHTML Strict as no matter what your template is, there is too much hardcoding of inappropriate tables and other unneccessary rubbish. 
Drupal and CivicSpace are probably overkill for your needs. If you site is primarily a blog, look at blogging scripts. Very few CMS have robust blogging features. If you are new to CMS software the very last thing you need is to have to learn how to hack something to make it work for you. Look for whatever is the closest match to your needs that has good documentation and an active user forum to help you when you have questions.
Definitely don't touch Xaraya. I use it and love it, but it is a framework on which you can build a CMS, it is not an out-of-the-box solution. While some people get by with the contributed modules, very few of these render as XHTML and editing modules is not a task for people who are new to either CMS or coding.
Hope this helps.Regards,Lynne

> Hey,
>
> I am new to CMS and find it hard to select one that will work for
me and 
> my client (non-profit organisation) and thought I could use some
advice.
>
> I am interested in a CMS that is:
> * XHTML Strict
> * Built-in Accessibility features.
>
> I also need one that has the following:
> * Blog with commenting
> * RSS syndication
> * Events calendar and option for people to sign up for events
> * Basic image galleries
> * Search options
> * Donation option in the future
>
> I was looking at Xaraya or Web GUI.
> But any advice would be much appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
> Elle
>

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