Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility
Thanks for mentioning the colour blind Dwain, blue colour blindness is the rarest form. 8% of adult males have some form of color blindness. http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Access/index.html#colourblind Tim On 11/01/2007, at 6:39 PM, Dwain Alford wrote: So, not sure what the best way is, but, I myself, tend to go with a lighter shade of the non-visited. Just do something! :) for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited links, etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer from http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ since web sites need to be accessible to everyone, don't forget the color blind, so make sure your colors work for them not just those with normal color vision. dwain *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility
Quoth Dwain Alford at 01/11/07 18:09... for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited links, etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer from http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ since web sites need to be accessible to everyone, don't forget the color blind, so make sure your colors work for them not just those with normal color vision. I find excessive colours distracting and confess that I am guilty of displaying visited and unvisited links the same, and only changing on focus/hover. With the colour blindness issue taken into consideration as well, would it not be better, therefore, to style visited links in a manner where colour is not involved at all? Not being a CSS guru, I would need to check what options are available, but something like a line over and under the word for visited links may be a possibility. Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Tabbed Navigation Review
Hello list. This is my first post, but I have been subscribed and enjoying this list for quite sometime. I work in online newspaper publishing. I'd like to gage some wise opinion from anyone who's interested on tabbed horizontal navigation systems for large publishing sites? Reasons I ask is we're trying to improve our own going forward, to be accessible, usable, intuitive and of course pretty. To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation systems: NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news. INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section under Sport for example. Open questions, open opinions very welcome. Kind Regards Ruairi -- Independent.ie Ruairi Doyle 27-32 Talbot St. Dublin 1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] desk. +353 1 7055873 mobile. +353 86 8800555 http://www.independent.ie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Tabbed Navigation Review
Hello list. This is my first post, but I have been subscribed and enjoying this list for quite sometime. I work in online newspaper publishing. I'd like to gage some wise opinion from anyone who's interested on tabbed horizontal navigation systems for large publishing sites? Reasons I ask is we're trying to improve our own going forward, to be accessible, usable, intuitive and of course pretty. To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation systems: NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news. INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section under Sport for example. Open questions, open opinions very welcome. Kind Regards Ruairi *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
@Matthew: And the only 'tampering' Opera Mini does as far as styling is concerned is ignore background-image rules? Or does it not render images, full stop? Tyssen Design wrote: The launch of Apple's iPhone could also have a significant impact in this area too. On the iPhone's site, I thought the Safari demo [www.apple.com/iphone/internet] was the least impressive thing. The fact that it's the most sophisticated (read: complex) hand-held browser is not necessarily good - for example, the browsing of the nytimes and fandango as demonstrated looked completely ineffectual. Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our ability to decide on what's best for the user. Incidentally, screen-size-sensitive stylesheets are an excellent notion [http://alistapart.com/articles/switchymclayout]. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
James Crooke wrote: Here's one for you. OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the default cursor. But even Krug's Don't Make Me Think has a pointer (the finger cursor) hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and Firefox buttons have the cursor. Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as hyperlinks. I always apply cursor:pointer to my buttons - partly because my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it seems) that it helps usability. Who disagrees? I have resigned myself to this. I decided last night that I couldn't justify the amount of time I spent specifically on IE6 for each project - my design process involves designing the best-case site, building it, and then making it work in IE6+7, which involves a lot of work that I am now not so sure is valid use of time. What I'm getting at is that I'm ditching my .htc and .js ideas for hovering buttons and falling back on this [cursor:pointer] technique, which is actually more than enough to denote interactivity - and has indicated this since time immemorial. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Tabbed Navigation Review
Ruairi Doyle escribió: Hello list. Hi!! To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation systems: NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news. INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section under Sport for example. Open questions, open opinions very welcome. I like very much navigation system of El Pais (www.elpais.com), tab based, it take 2 clicks but there's only 2 nav levels, where level 2 is grouped near level 1. (sorry my english) Cheers! -- /* Daniel Torres Burriel - www.torresburriel.com /* Web design - Usability consulting - IT Press /* More info bio: www.torresburriel.com/perfil/ /* GPG key: 0x43DB2AB7 --= Antes de imprimir este mensaje, por favor compruebe que es verdaderamente necesario. El Medio Ambiente es cosa de todos. =-- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Online Publishing Heavy sites horizontal navigation systems
Hello list. This is my first post, but I have been subscribed and enjoying this list for quite sometime. I work in online newspaper publishing. I'd like to gage some wise opinion from anyone who's interested on tabbed horizontal navigation systems for large publishing sites? Reasons I ask is we're trying to improve our own going forward, to be accessible, usable, intuitive and of course pretty. To cut to the chase what are peoples opinion of the following navigation systems: NYTIMES http://www.nytimes.com/pages/world/index.html Here there is two steps to get to a section under US news. INDY UK http://news.independent.co.uk Here it is full of javascript but it takes 1 step to get to a section under Sport for example. Open questions, open opinions very welcome. Kind Regards Ruairi *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility
Apologies, my reply was to Matthew, not Dwain. Frank -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Smith Sent: Thursday, 11 January, 2007 10:18 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility Quoth Dwain Alford at 01/11/07 18:09... for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited links, etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer from http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ http://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ since web sites need to be accessible to everyone, don't forget the color blind, so make sure your colors work for them not just those with normal color vision. I find excessive colours distracting and confess that I am guilty of displaying visited and unvisited links the same, and only changing on focus/hover. With the colour blindness issue taken into consideration as well, would it not be better, therefore, to style visited links in a manner where colour is not involved at all? Not being a CSS guru, I would need to check what options are available, but something like a line over and under the word for visited links may be a possibility. Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our ability to decide on what's best for the user. Opera would disagree with you - Opera Mobile (their fully-fledged mobile browser, as opposed to Opera Mini which is essentially just a proxy tool) does exactly that - it magically make sites intuitively accessible on small devices J *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
Quoting Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On the iPhone's site, I thought the Safari demo [www.apple.com/iphone/internet] was the least impressive thing. The fact that it's the most sophisticated (read: complex) hand-held browser is not necessarily good - for example, the browsing of the nytimes and fandango as demonstrated looked completely ineffectual. Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our ability to decide on what's best for the user. They could start by honouring media=handheld, rather than pretending that even on a small screen device, your browser should fetch the styling set for normal screens. I've asked a contact of mine at Apple if Safari on iPhone does this, but he couldn't give me any specifics at this stage either. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 10:58:55AM +, Brothercake wrote: Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to Opera would disagree with you Opera, presumably, recognises that a great many websites are designed in a mobile-unfriendly fashion and write code to compensate for it. That doesn't mean they should have to do that. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
Quoth Barney Carroll at 01/11/07 20:48... @Matthew: And the only 'tampering' Opera Mini does as far as styling is concerned is ignore background-image rules? Or does it not render images, full stop? On its own, Opera Mini doesn't do a lot to the content; however, those of us with slower (pre-3G) and expensive connections - we pay by the kilobyte - may be inclined to turn all images off for time/economic reasons. Just like going back to the old, slow, modem days. The challenges of presenting content to Opera Mini are: 1) Keeping the total data size to a minimum 2) Dealing with a very, very small screen 3) No plugins (I have not checked to see whether JavaScript is handled or not.) M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
First things first - what makes you think that Steve Krug designed the cover of that book? My father has authored several books, and I can tell you that he has a fairly low regard for the designers that produce his covers, and routinely place items upside down etc. To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they should have the same curser does not seem valid to me. Mike From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Crooke Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:26 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links Here's one for you. OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the default cursor. But even Krug's Don't Make Me Think has a pointer (the finger cursor) hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and Firefox buttons have the cursor. Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as hyperlinks. I always apply cursor:pointer to my buttons - partly because my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it seems) that it helps usability. Who disagrees? On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Patrick H. Lauke skrev: Quoting Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] : There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow. Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking default functionality in browsers to aid these users is not a sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on the browser's default behaviour. OK, I have now changed the text marker cursor on my own system, much easier to see it now :-) /anders *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Silly point. I'm pretty sure Krug would have designed his cover :S We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users sometimes think oh the button is dead So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to a finger-pointer on a button. On 1/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First things first - what makes you think that Steve Krug designed the cover of that book? My father has authored several books, and I can tell you that he has a fairly low regard for the designers that produce his covers, and routinely place items upside down etc. To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they should have the same curser does not seem valid to me. Mike -- *From:* listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *James Crooke *Sent:* Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:26 PM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links Here's one for you. OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the default cursor. But even Krug's Don't Make Me Think has a pointer (the finger cursor) hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and Firefox buttons have the cursor. Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as hyperlinks. I always apply cursor:pointer to my buttons - partly because my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it seems) that it helps usability. Who disagrees? On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Patrick H. Lauke skrev: Quoting Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] : There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow. Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking default functionality in browsers to aid these users is not a sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on the browser's default behaviour. OK, I have now changed the text marker cursor on my own system, much easier to see it now :-) /anders *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
I think it's good to leave the cursor behavior as it is by browsers default, when using the visual style for button that is also browsers default ( if we are talking about input type=button or submit), but if designer created his own style and it is not so clear that it is a system button then it would be good to change it's cursor properti to pointer... Mihael On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different action to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they should have the same curser does not seem valid to me. You can't deny their similarity though. Seriously - are there any elements more similar to either? A visual distinction is often needed between buttons and anchors (although based on context you could argue against), but as long as they're not identical, I can see why you'd want to emphasise their shared aspects with common semantic styling; hence the hand icon, which traditionally denotes objects you can click on. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
James Crooke We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users sometimes think oh the button is dead A counter argument to that: So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion oh, on this site it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other sites it's dead. It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd argue, is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of information per se). P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Mihael Zadravec wrote: I think it's good to leave the cursor behavior as it is by browsers default, when using the visual style for button that is also browsers default ( if we are talking about input type=button or submit), but if designer created his own style and it is not so clear that it is a system button then it would be good to change it's cursor properti to pointer... Mihael I agree completely. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Patrick Lauke wrote: James Crooke We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users sometimes think oh the button is dead A counter argument to that: So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion oh, on this site it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other sites it's dead. It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd argue, is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of information per se). This is an interesting philosophy. I personally believe that Microsoft and the awful IT education in this country (UK) have created a terrible culture of people who are so steeped in the logic of Microsoft's very worst user interfaces, that they perceive and value objects akin to these systems ahead of innately intuitive interaction processes. A massive amount of common culture must be used on any document for it to be legible, and in the domain of websites there is also a lot of convention to follow. However an integral part of my job is producing 'outside-of-the-box' solutions that don't depend on a user's knowledge of computer systems convention, and instead rely on innate human psychology. This sounds pretentious but good designers do this (or at least they try) all the time. Another aspect includes 'branding' sites. There are those weirdos who want their site to look exactly like a Windows desktop, but most people want a look and feel and way of doing things that is unique to them and their site, which can then be incorporated into their corporate identity. By the way, I'm not a corporate identity or particularly commercial designer, most of my projects are for government and non-profit organisations. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button, (default) arrow cursor or finger-pointer cursor? (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the convention of a default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default attributes to prevent breaking conventions.) So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion oh, on this site it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other sites it's dead. If you have ever conducted a usability test, you will know that users will also voice their opinions on things that effect all websites (like buttons not having state changes). This is where we (as designers) will respond with well err, that's the default so we left it like that. Incidentally, if I flip my Windows XP settings to the XP theme, my default buttons are highlighted on hover (google search button is best example) - whereas before (with Windows Standard theme) they are just grey and have no hover state. Please bear this in mind when talking about breaking the default behaviour. Note: as soon as you change the background color of a button, you have broken the XP themed hover state. Regards James On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Patrick Lauke wrote: James Crooke We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users sometimes think oh the button is dead A counter argument to that: So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion oh, on this site it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other sites it's dead. It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd argue, is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of information per se). This is an interesting philosophy. I personally believe that Microsoft and the awful IT education in this country (UK) have created a terrible culture of people who are so steeped in the logic of Microsoft's very worst user interfaces, that they perceive and value objects akin to these systems ahead of innately intuitive interaction processes. A massive amount of common culture must be used on any document for it to be legible, and in the domain of websites there is also a lot of convention to follow. However an integral part of my job is producing 'outside-of-the-box' solutions that don't depend on a user's knowledge of computer systems convention, and instead rely on innate human psychology. This sounds pretentious but good designers do this (or at least they try) all the time. Another aspect includes 'branding' sites. There are those weirdos who want their site to look exactly like a Windows desktop, but most people want a look and feel and way of doing things that is unique to them and their site, which can then be incorporated into their corporate identity. By the way, I'm not a corporate identity or particularly commercial designer, most of my projects are for government and non-profit organisations. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote: So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button, (default) arrow cursor or finger-pointer cursor? (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the convention of a default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default attributes to prevent breaking conventions.) What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human Interface Guidelines [1]. When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which is why they give different feedback. If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established for a reason. If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system. There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if it hinders it, it becomes a problem. Regards, Nick. [1] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/ Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGCursors/chapter_15_section_2.html#// apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002724-TPXREF101 [2] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/ Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_2.html#// apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3359-TPXREF186 -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which is why they give different feedback. I am not attempting to discredit these distinctions, which bear a lot of relevance; but I strongly doubt the notion that distinctions down to this level (some are indeed needed, and nobody here is suggesting that buttons be indistinguishable from links) are of vital importance to users. Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going to hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and get baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would elucidate the functionality of the button. Action as opposed to navigation is an important difference, and I make it visible. The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference. I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires insight or creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing according to ancient presets without analysis. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Nick Fitzsimons wrote: When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which is why they give different feedback. I am not attempting to discredit these distinctions, which bear a lot of relevance; but I strongly doubt the notion that distinctions down to this level (some are indeed needed, and nobody here is suggesting that buttons be indistinguishable from links) are of vital importance to users. Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going to hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and get baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would elucidate the functionality of the button. Action as opposed to navigation is an important difference, and I make it visible. The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference. I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone mad. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(
Mihael Zadravec wrote: Oh boy..! Ok..!. :D I am not the author of that page. It was just a bad examle of Blind people community website :D But hey!..thanks for links anyway! cya! Mihael Haha! sorry Mihael I thought it was your site and you were asking for comments! d'oh and yes, it is very sad.. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
Sorry, I thought Microsoft were the first to come up with the different cursor styles. I thought that when Susan Kare (designer of the cursors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kare) spent time at Microsoft doing graphic design work she came up with the cursor we all know and love to argue about. I apologise for not knowing my cursor history. I'd rather not argue over an opinion - I have statistics to do that for me. Cheers guys. On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote: So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button, (default) arrow cursor or finger-pointer cursor? (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the convention of a default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default attributes to prevent breaking conventions.) What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human Interface Guidelines [1]. When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which is why they give different feedback. If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established for a reason. If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system. There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if it hinders it, it becomes a problem. Regards, Nick. [1] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/ Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGCursors/chapter_15_section_2.html#// apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002724-TPXREF101 [2] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/ Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_2.html#// apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3359-TPXREF186 -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visited Links and Accessibility
for accessibility purposes in using color (on links and visited links, etc.) i would recommend using the color contrast analyzer fromhttp://www.accessibleinfo.org.au/ This is now at: http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/info.aspx?page=628 Andrew Maben 109b SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Ph: 352-384-9127 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires insight or creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing according to ancient presets without analysis. Sometimes it realy looks like some of us are exaggerating and this issue (cursor style) is like walking on the edge... but somehow, it should be standardized. It is a small issue, but still it is. I think, there is still alot of space for graphic designers to manoevre after or before applying standards... Do user realy care about standards? Most of them don not even know that they exist. That is way we are here. :D I think that the best resolution was: If changed the default style of the button, use pointer, if not changed, and buttons style is browsers default button style, than leave it as it is. Mihael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
P.S For those that are interested: http://www.kare.com - it's an interesting site! On 1/11/07, James Crooke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I thought Microsoft were the first to come up with the different cursor styles. I thought that when Susan Kare (designer of the cursors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kare ) spent time at Microsoft doing graphic design work she came up with the cursor we all know and love to argue about. I apologise for not knowing my cursor history. I'd rather not argue over an opinion - I have statistics to do that for me. Cheers guys. On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote: So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button, (default) arrow cursor or finger-pointer cursor? (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the convention of a default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default attributes to prevent breaking conventions.) What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human Interface Guidelines [1]. When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI design, which is why they give different feedback. If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established for a reason. If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system. There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if it hinders it, it becomes a problem. Regards, Nick. [1] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/ Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGCursors/chapter_15_section_2.html#// apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002724-TPXREF101 [2] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/ Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_2.html#// apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3359-TPXREF186 -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- James -- James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
On 11 Jan 2007, at 14:30:05, Barney Carroll wrote: Conceive of a persona who is not a read-up fan of Apple's UI recommendations (my target audience, incidentally). Are they going to hover their cursor over a button, see it turn into a hand, and get baffled? I very much doubt it. In fact I think it would elucidate the functionality of the button. The point of being consistent is that the user notices nothing. As Jakob Nielsen puts it, Users spend most of their time on other websites... This means that they form their expectations for your site based on what's commonly done on most other sites. If you deviate, your site will be harder to use. [1] The fact that it's a button elucidates its functionality. If you need to offer additional cues, you need to redesign your button. The cursor, in my mind, has no bearing on this difference. On the contrary, the cursor is a crucial element of the user experience. If it starts behaving in ways other than expected, the potential for confusion is there. I don't think I'm flippant in thinking that this is standardisation gone mad - it is at the point where designing no longer requires insight or creativity, and simply demands mechanical processing according to ancient presets without analysis. Please don't take this personally (it so happens it's one of my bugbears, and I tend to start ranting when it comes up) but one of the worst problems on the web is graphic designers who think that their vision or creativity or whatever overrides the need for usability. Graphic design for the web (or, indeed, anywhere) must always be subordinate to usability; great graphic design recognises this, and actually enhances usability, as well as being aesthetically pleasing. As for ancient presets: Apple carried out several years of regular user testing in the process of designing the Mac user interface [2]. They still do this, and the default cursor behaviour is one of the things they have found no reason to change. The expression If it ain't broke, don't fix it is often used inappropriately (as Kent Beck's grandmother says, If it stinks, change it [3]) but in this case I don't believe anything is broken, and you are solving a problem that doesn't exist. Kind regards, Nick. [1] http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html [2] http://folklore.org/StoryView.py? project=Macintoshstory=Do_It.txttopic=User% 20InterfacesortOrder=Sort%20by%20Datedetail=medium [3] Quoted in the book Refactoring: Improving the design of existing code by Martin Fowler et al. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Refactoring- Improving-Design-Existing-Technology/dp/0201485672/sr=8-1/ qid=1168528154/ref=pd_ka_1/026-4118605-6022024?ie=UTF8s=books -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please don't take this personally (it so happens it's one of my bugbears, and I tend to start ranting when it comes up) but one of the worst problems on the web is graphic designers who think that their vision or creativity or whatever overrides the need for usability. Graphic design for the web (or, indeed, anywhere) must always be subordinate to usability; great graphic design recognises this, and actually enhances usability, as well as being aesthetically pleasing. Amen to that! :D Mihael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
James Crooke wrote: P.S For those that are interested: http://www.kare.com - it's an interesting site! Brilliant! I miss Windows 3 so much - it's all downhill from there! Interesting to see the person behind all this. Mihael Zadravec wrote: I think that the best resolution was: If changed the default style of the button, use pointer, if not changed, and buttons style is browsers default button style, than leave it as it is. A very sober conclusion, and the one I've gone with. Neither this nor its opposite are imperative standards in my eyes though. @Nick: I think it's fair to conclude that we simply disagree! I still maintain my belief that the cursor icon does not associate with the difference between link and button in the minds of most. It is also true that usability should not be taken lightly, and my decision to change the cursor over buttons is based entirely on usability considerations. Users spend most of their time on other websites... This means that they form their expectations for your site based on what's commonly done on most other sites. If you deviate, your site will be harder to use. While this is a useful mantra to remember, if it is taken as gospel, it means that a site less confusing and more usable than existing sites is impossible. If I were more cynical, I might say this is blind and hopeless promotion of the status quo, whatever it may be, and shuns innovation. It's like saying you shouldn't vote for people who aren't already in power! Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
On 11 Jan 2007, at 15:36:52, Barney Carroll wrote: @Nick: I think it's fair to conclude that we simply disagree! I agree :-) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links
On Jan 11, 2007, at 6:47 AM, James Crooke wrote: We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users sometimes think oh the button is dead So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to a finger-pointer on a button. We as designers know (presumably!) that a form button performs a different function from a hyperlink - submit/reset a form vs. direct browser to a new URL. To a user (who has no need to know, still less understand the technicalities of this difference) the result in each case is broadly the same: different content is presented in the browser window. As the pointer cursor means click and something will happen, it makes sense to have the pointer appear in each case. (The use of form elements purely for navigation is another discussion...) Where the browser's defaults fall short, i think we have at least the right, if not a duty, to override them. In this instance I'd be astonished if any user whose browser default button cursor is an arrow would exclaim, if presented with the pointer instead, ohmigod! what happened? where's my arrow?, whereas the complementary huh? is this button 'dead'? reaction is fairly predictable. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
I don't know any more... Is it me, or it is some kind of stupid software's sh... problem? Wen layout coded in xhtml and is in one piece.. everithing is qool. But, as I cut it on pieces, and inculde them with php's include_once function, it ads to certain element ( don't get it what is the logical procedur that picks them out ) 12px margin top and bottom... :( Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution? Btw. I'am useing notepad++ for coding... thank you! -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now! It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it renders it properly.. On 1/11/07, Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know any more... Is it me, or it is some kind of stupid software's sh... problem? Wen layout coded in xhtml and is in one piece.. everithing is qool. But, as I cut it on pieces, and inculde them with php's include_once function, it ads to certain element ( don't get it what is the logical procedur that picks them out ) 12px margin top and bottom... :( Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution? Btw. I'am useing notepad++ for coding... thank you! -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
Mihael Zadravec wrote: Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution? Check your white space. IE is known to do this if the doctype is not the absolute FIRST thing in the document source code... no blank lines, no spaces... nothing. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
Hi Mihael, PHP won't do anything to HTML unless you ask it to. Are you sure you aren't introducing extra whitespace into your markup when using the PHP includes? This may introduce unwanted padding / gaps between elements... Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/12/07 07:21... OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now! It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it renders it properly.. Still OK in all browsers when done by hand? I don't know what programming tools you have in Windows, but I would be inclined to write both the hand-coded and PHP generated code to a pair of files and then compare them, using something like the Unix diff utility. Also check the MIME types that the two versions are being presented as. I know that Firefox will render things differently depending on the MIME type with which XHTML content is served - normally margins around the page changing. When creating pages dynamically, I believe it safest to control everything. PHP has a tendency to set its own default headers, which can confuse the issue. I would suggest, at a minimum, you use PHP's header() to control Content-type and cache control. Having done all my early work in Perl, where what you write is what you get, I had some initial problems with PHP, where it tried to be too helpful. Taking back full control of the headers can fix this. If you need any code samples, contact me off-list; I am in the process of writing a CMS (Content Management System) toolkit in PHP, some of which may help you. Cheers M -- Matthew Smith IT Consultancy Web Application Development Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/ Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
well..
INDEX.PHP
-
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; lang=si
head
meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 /
titleToasted Web - Publikacija o spletnih standardih/title
link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href=css/main.css /
link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href=css/meta.css /
/head
body
?php include_once 'header.php'; ?
HEADER.PHP
-
div id=header
h1Site title/h1
div id=logoimg src=slike/twm-logo.gif alt=Toasted Web logo
//div
div id=top_menu
h2 class=struct_labelNavigacija po glavnih rubrikah:/h2
ul
li class=selecteda href=
name=navigacijaNaslovnica/a/li
lia href= name=navigacijaČlanki/a/li
lia href=Literatura/a/li
lia href=Javni razpisi /a/li
lia href=Forum/a/li
/ul
/div
div class=clear_both/div
/div
css
---
html { margin:0; padding: 0; width:100%; height:100%; }
body { margin:0; padding: 0 0 2em 0; }ž
#header { margin:0; padding:0.5em 1em 0 2em; border-bottom:solid 5px
#3497EC; }
no witespaces ... if by those are space in code..
On 1/11/07, Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Mihael,
PHP won't do anything to HTML unless you ask it to. Are you sure you
aren't introducing extra whitespace into your markup when using the PHP
includes? This may introduce unwanted padding / gaps between elements...
Paul
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
Računalniške storitve Toasted Web
Mihael Zadravec s.p.
---
tel: 00386 51 808136
email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec
---
Toasted Web
http://www.toastedweb.com
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
Perhaps a little off topic, but I'd suggest that you may have introduced some white space before and after your php code. Any empty lines between xhtml and php will introduce so-called margins. I don't know any more... Is it me, or it is some kind of stupid software's sh... problem? Wen layout coded in xhtml and is in one piece.. everithing is qool. But, as I cut it on pieces, and inculde them with php's include_once function, it ads to certain element ( don't get it what is the logical procedur that picks them out ) 12px margin top and bottom... :( Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution? Btw. I'am useing notepad++ for coding... thank you! -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
well... if I echo with php the code, than it's ok, but if I include a file ( header.php) it adds a top and bottom margins,... however, there are no whitespaces :D this is killing me... that kind of thing makes me ask my self a few questions that I realy dislike :D On 1/11/07, Sarah Peeke (XERT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps a little off topic, but I'd suggest that you may have introduced some white space before and after your php code. Any empty lines between xhtml and php will introduce so-called margins. I don't know any more... Is it me, or it is some kind of stupid software's sh... problem? Wen layout coded in xhtml and is in one piece.. everithing is qool. But, as I cut it on pieces, and inculde them with php's include_once function, it ads to certain element ( don't get it what is the logical procedur that picks them out ) 12px margin top and bottom... :( Any expierience with that anyone? Maybe the solution? Btw. I'am useing notepad++ for coding... thank you! -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
On 1/11/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/12/07 07:21... OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now! It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it renders it properly.. Still OK in all browsers when done by hand? when done without including content without php, all in one :D it 's ok... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
On 1/11/07, Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/11/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoth Mihael Zadravec at 01/12/07 07:21... OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now! It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it renders it properly.. Still OK in all browsers when done by hand? when done without including content without php, all in one :D it 's ok... THAT actualy had something to do with my notepad++, because I wrote the code again in notepad and save it as header.php ... and it works properly... Is there sometnih that I could have setup incorectly in notepad++? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
Mihael Zadravec wrote: well... if I echo with php the code, than it's ok, but if I include a file (header.php) it adds a top and bottom margins,... however, there are no whitespaces :D Are you checking for whitespace in the final HTML that's sent to the browser, i.e. doing a view source? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: @Matthew: And the only 'tampering' Opera Mini does as far as styling is concerned is ignore background-image rules? Or does it not render images, full stop? Tyssen Design wrote: The launch of Apple's iPhone could also have a significant impact in this area too. Having said this, it should not be the browser manufacturer's job to customise their rendering process to magically make sites intuitively accessible on small devices - and if they do, it impinges on our ability to decide on what's best for the user. IMO the right thing to do is to modify nothing when a handheld stylesheet is present, but if that is not available then use the screen stylesheet and render it down or don't use styles at all. It's easy to argue that mobile browser coders should work on CSS rendering rather than trying to render sites without CSS, but backwards compatibility is always good for business. And that's all IMO. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
Hi Mihael,
In order for people to help you, it would be great if you could answer the
following questions:
1. Is the gap present when viewed in browsers other than Firefox when the code
is all in one file?
2. Is there a place where the files are hosted so we can see the results for
ourselves? (Working code is always far easier to debug than raw code sent in
emails.)
3. There is an odd (for me) character in your CSS after the body style rule:
body { margin:0; padding: 0 0 2em 0; }ž
Is this intentional, or is it an email encoding issue?
If you can't host the files for us to see, could you at least send through the
RENDERED source of each file so we can have something solid to debug.
Once you've done these things, list members will be much more able to help :)
Hope that helps,
Paul
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
There are no white spaces... :D On 1/11/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mihael Zadravec wrote: well... if I echo with php the code, than it's ok, but if I include a file (header.php) it adds a top and bottom margins,... however, there are no whitespaces :D Are you checking for whitespace in the final HTML that's sent to the browser, i.e. doing a view source? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Računalniške storitve Toasted Web Mihael Zadravec s.p. --- tel: 00386 51 808136 email in msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype kontakt: mihael_zadravec --- Toasted Web http://www.toastedweb.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
In order for people to help you, it would be great if you could answer the
following questions:
1. Is the gap present when viewed in browsers other than Firefox when the
code is all in one file?
There is no gap... and no whitespaces
2. Is there a place where the files are hosted so we can see the results for
ourselves? (Working code is always far easier to debug than raw code sent in
emails.)
Nope. :(
3. There is an odd (for me) character in your CSS after the body style rule:
body { margin:0; padding: 0 0 2em 0; }ž
Is this intentional, or is it an email encoding issue?
That was a typo in the mail... Sorry for that... but if anyone interested :D
it is a leeter Z but it has the hook :D like Ž
If you can't host the files for us to see, could you at least send through
the RENDERED source of each file so we can have something solid to debug.
I know , thanks for advice... I provided the code, it realy isn't much to se
in code generated by browsers... there is no whitespaces..
As I changed encoding in notepad++ the problem was solved.. ( from utf-8 to
utf-8 without BOM - and now I am reserching what that BOM actualy is. )
cya!
Mihael
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
OH BOY This is realy making me crazy! All they by now! It happens in IE 6, IE 7 and Opera 9.01... In firefox it looks like it renders it properly.. Still OK in all browsers when done by hand? when done without including content without php, all in one :D it 's ok... THAT actualy had something to do with my notepad++, because I wrote the code again in notepad and save it as header.php ... and it works properly... Is there sometnih that I could have setup incorectly in notepad++? As I changed Encoding from UTF-8 to ANSI, it makes no margins... :D why is that??? funny... or silly me... :D *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
It happened to me one and it was some encoding problems, UTF-8 encoding on windows introduced some extra characters that was hidden from almost all editors except from few of them, i believe that Zend IDE got the extra character, that was only recognized by IE, it was working fine on all other browsers though, it took me 2 days to figure it out and when i removed that hidden characters it worked fine on IE, i think you too have the same problem, it is usually on top before *check here*?php tag, try to remove it. on 01/12/2007 12:44 AM Mihael Zadravec said the following: On 1/11/07, *Mihael Zadravec* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: when done without including content without php, all in one :D it 's ok... THAT actualy had something to do with my notepad++, because I wrote the code again in notepad and save it as header.php ... and it works properly... Is there sometnih that I could have setup incorectly in notepad++? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
On 1/11/07, Abdulrahman Al-Otaiba [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It happened to me one and it was some encoding problems, UTF-8 encoding on windows introduced some extra characters that was hidden from almost all editors except from few of them, i believe that Zend IDE got the extra character, that was only recognized by IE, it was working fine on all other browsers though, it took me 2 days to figure it out and when i removed that hidden characters it worked fine on IE, i think you too have the same problem, it is usually on top before *check here*?php tag, try to remove it. Yes... something like that... so I set the notepad++ to ENCODE UTF-8 WHITOUT BOM and it works all right. Anyone has a clue what that BOM means? Mihael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] including files with php produces 12px margin height ???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_Order_Mark on 01/12/2007 01:23 AM Mihael Zadravec said the following: Yes... something like that... so I set the notepad++ to ENCODE UTF-8 WHITOUT BOM and it works all right. Anyone has a clue what that BOM means? Mihael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Site Question
Dear Travis,
You are asking a lot for a cut and paste job that it may take a lot of
study to appreciate why you cannot slap a compliant site together with
cut and paste and you should employ someone to make a template you can
work with.
Your page validates, but is not accessible. A couple of suggestions.
It needs some meta META tags in the header. Language, Creation date
content, keywords, etc.
meta name=Authorcontent=You /
meta name=language content=en-uk /
Using tables for layout requires much more attention to table headers
and a summary.
th colspan=1 abbr=mobilephonescope=coltitle=About
usServices/th
You will be spammed to death with your email address in the page,
create a contact page or hide the email address in some javascript.
onclick=JavaScript:window.location='#109;'+'ail'+'to:' etc etc
I had a few jobs making memorial webpages for deceased family members,
offer clients an option of a memorial webpage, but contract the work
out.
Tim
http://www.hereticpress.com
On 12/01/2007, at 9:54 AM, Travis D. Falls wrote:
I am developing a site for my business. www.chamberlingranite.com. I
have pasted in the rendered code and the CSS. What I can’t figure out
is:
A I want the footer to appear at the bottom of the page not in the
middle when the content ends.
B I want to get that gradient to push down a bit.
Any pointers would be greatly appreciated… And if you see something
that you think just isn’t done well let me know. I want to make this
the correct way. Thanks!
Travis
*{
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
border-collapse:collapse;
}
html,body{
}
body {
font-family:Verdana, Arial, Serif;
font-size:100%;
width:100%;
vertical-align:top;
text-align:center;
background-image:url(images/BackgroundTileColor.jpg);
}
a{
text-decoration:none;
}
a:hover{
text-decoration:underline;
}
#Container{
width:100%;
height:100%;
margin-top:30px;
vertical-align:top;
text-align:left;
background-position:35% left;
background-image:url(images/BackgroundTile.jpg);
background-repeat:repeat-x;
}
#TopNav{
position:absolute;
right:300px;
top:5px;
}
#TopNav tr td a{
color:#ff;
font-size:85%;
padding-left:10px;
padding-right:10px;
}
#Utilities{
position:absolute;
right:23px;
top:5px;
}
#Utilities tr td a{
font-size:80%;
color:#99;
}
#Utilities tr td a:hover{
color:#ff;
}
#Header{
background-image:url(images/TopBar.jpg);
background-repeat:repeat-x;
width:100%;
height:68px;
}
#Logo{
background-image:url(images/Logo.jpg);
background-repeat:no-repeat;
background-position:left center;
margin-top:6px;
margin-left:20px;
width:210px;
height:57px;
}
#CatchPhrase{
position:absolute;
right:20px;
top:66px;
}
#CatchPhrase span{
font-weight:400;
font-family:Verdana, Arial;
color:#66;
font-size:200%;
}
#Main{
margin:auto;
margin-top:15px;
width:988px;
text-align:left;
}
#Countertops{
z-index:200;
background-image:url(images/Countertop.jpg);
background-repeat:no-repeat;
width:321px;
height:278px;
border-left:solid 2px #ff;
border-top:solid 2px #ff;
border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
}
#Countertops:hover{
background-image:url(images/CountertopOn.jpg);
}
#CountertopsMessage{
z-index:100;
width:321px;
height:278px;
display:none;
}
#CountertopsMessage:hover{
display:block;
}
#Landscape
{
z-index:100;
width:349px;
height:278px;
background-image:url(images/Landscape.jpg);
background-repeat:no-repeat;
border-top:solid 2px #ff;
border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
}
#Landscape:hover{
background-image:url(images/LandscapeOn.jpg);
}
#LandscapeMessage
{
z-index:200;
width:349px;
height:278px;
display:none;
}
#LandscapeMessage:hover
{
display:block;
}
#Memorials
{
z-index:100;
width:318px;
height:278px;
background-image:url(images/Memorial.jpg);
background-repeat:no-repeat;
border-right:solid 2px #ff;
border-top:solid 2px #ff;
border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
}
#Memorials:hover{
background-image:url(images/MemorialOn.jpg);
}
#MemorialsMessage
{
z-index:200;
width:318px;
height:278px;
display:none;
}
#MemorialsMessage:hover
{
display:block;
}
#Products td
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
border-collapse:collapse;
}
#ProductTitles
{
text-align:center;
}
#ProductTitles h1{
color:#ff;
font-size:150%;
font-weight:lighter;
}
#MainContent
{
margin:auto;
margin-top:30px;
vertical-align:top;
RE: [WSG] Site Question
Tim I think you misunderstood what I was asking... I was looking for a tip
on how to get the footer to actually extend to the foot of the page, I
pasted the code so people could see how the code was done. I agree Tables
aren't the way to lay things out but I needed to get this done fast and then
good... ;-) I will be refactoring it again and again. I basically don't
understand why specific containers when given 100% height aren't extending
to 100% Thanks for the advice on the email address... I will do a C#
contact form... again... I was doing this fast, then correct. I had 12 hrs
to do it. :-)
Thanks
Travis
-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Tim
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 6:34 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Question
Dear Travis,
You are asking a lot for a cut and paste job that it may take a lot of
study to appreciate why you cannot slap a compliant site together with
cut and paste and you should employ someone to make a template you can
work with.
Your page validates, but is not accessible. A couple of suggestions.
It needs some meta META tags in the header. Language, Creation date
content, keywords, etc.
meta name=Authorcontent=You /
meta name=language content=en-uk /
Using tables for layout requires much more attention to table headers
and a summary.
th colspan=1 abbr=mobilephonescope=coltitle=About
usServices/th
You will be spammed to death with your email address in the page,
create a contact page or hide the email address in some javascript.
onclick=JavaScript:window.location='#109;'+'ail'+'to:' etc etc
I had a few jobs making memorial webpages for deceased family members,
offer clients an option of a memorial webpage, but contract the work
out.
Tim
http://www.hereticpress.com
On 12/01/2007, at 9:54 AM, Travis D. Falls wrote:
I am developing a site for my business. www.chamberlingranite.com. I
have pasted in the rendered code and the CSS. What I cant figure out
is:
A I want the footer to appear at the bottom of the page not in
the
middle when the content ends.
B I want to get that gradient to push down a bit.
Any pointers would be greatly appreciated
And if you see something
that you think just isnt done well let me know. I want to make this
the correct way. Thanks!
Travis
*{
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
border-collapse:collapse;
}
html,body{
}
body {
font-family:Verdana, Arial, Serif;
font-size:100%;
width:100%;
vertical-align:top;
text-align:center;
background-image:url(images/BackgroundTileColor.jpg);
}
a{
text-decoration:none;
}
a:hover{
text-decoration:underline;
}
#Container{
width:100%;
height:100%;
margin-top:30px;
vertical-align:top;
text-align:left;
background-position:35% left;
background-image:url(images/BackgroundTile.jpg);
background-repeat:repeat-x;
}
#TopNav{
position:absolute;
right:300px;
top:5px;
}
#TopNav tr td a{
color:#ff;
font-size:85%;
padding-left:10px;
padding-right:10px;
}
#Utilities{
position:absolute;
right:23px;
top:5px;
}
#Utilities tr td a{
font-size:80%;
color:#99;
}
#Utilities tr td a:hover{
color:#ff;
}
#Header{
background-image:url(images/TopBar.jpg);
background-repeat:repeat-x;
width:100%;
height:68px;
}
#Logo{
background-image:url(images/Logo.jpg);
background-repeat:no-repeat;
background-position:left center;
margin-top:6px;
margin-left:20px;
width:210px;
height:57px;
}
#CatchPhrase{
position:absolute;
right:20px;
top:66px;
}
#CatchPhrase span{
font-weight:400;
font-family:Verdana, Arial;
color:#66;
font-size:200%;
}
#Main{
margin:auto;
margin-top:15px;
width:988px;
text-align:left;
}
#Countertops{
z-index:200;
background-image:url(images/Countertop.jpg);
background-repeat:no-repeat;
width:321px;
height:278px;
border-left:solid 2px #ff;
border-top:solid 2px #ff;
border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
}
#Countertops:hover{
background-image:url(images/CountertopOn.jpg);
}
#CountertopsMessage{
z-index:100;
width:321px;
height:278px;
display:none;
}
#CountertopsMessage:hover{
display:block;
}
#Landscape
{
z-index:100;
width:349px;
height:278px;
background-image:url(images/Landscape.jpg);
background-repeat:no-repeat;
border-top:solid 2px #ff;
border-bottom:solid 2px #ff;
}
#Landscape:hover{
Re: [WSG] website checker
Silktest and loadrunner will test a site for accessibility if they didnt I would have no job. del usr On 1/9/07, David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 04:50:06PM -, John 'Max' Maxwell wrote: Can someone tell me the best way to check my website for 'accessability'?? Pay an expert (or become one yourself). Email me off list if you want a recommendation, I won't spam the group with it. The RNIB is also likely to be able to make some suggestions. I have done a standard HTML and CSS validation so I can be 100% before advertising the fact in my footer etc. But is there a 1 click Y/N tester for accessibility that works in the same way as the W3 site checker for validity?? No, many aspects of accessibility cannot be programatically tested for. You need some degree of human intervention. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. It is intended solely for the named addressee. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to the addressee), you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by that company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect. This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. It is intended solely for the named addressee. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to the addressee), you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by that company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- PRIVILEGED - PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s) and may contain information which is confidential or privileged. If you receive this email and you are not the addressee(s) [or responsible for delivery of the email to the addressee(s)], please disregard the contents of the email, delete the email and notify the author immediately. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Background images turned off? (was Visited Links and Accessibility)
IMO the right thing to do is to modify nothing when a handheld stylesheet is present, but if that is not available then use the screen stylesheet and render it down or don't use styles at all. I agree - and this is precisely what Opera Mobile does. It begins with a handheld-media stylesheet and honours that if it's there. If not it tries to honour the screen styles, applying increasingly aggresive styles of its own as available space decreases and/or the layout requires. All rather impressive really :) You can see it action using desktop Opera - go View Fit to Width and then progressively reduce the size of the window (while viewing a page), right down to a tiny square. J *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] 3 questions: flash, aimg and Ad Sense
Hey,
Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:
1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every
time a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the
logo. If you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image
loads.
Would you know why this happens?
2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have border-
bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.
Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color:
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.
Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?
3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it
caused errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as
XHTML strict?
Much appreciated any help,
Elle
http://waznelle.com
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] 3 questions: flash, aimg and Ad Sense
Elle
Answer to 1.
Depends if you are viewing the page via Windows or OsX/*nix.
I expect you might be on OsX or *nix and flash does not work the same as on
Windows, put the logo in a iframe and that should fix it.
Nick
On 12/01/07, Elle Meredith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hey,
Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:
1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every
time a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the
logo. If you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image
loads.
Would you know why this happens?
2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have border-
bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.
Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color:
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.
Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?
3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it
caused errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as
XHTML strict?
Much appreciated any help,
Elle
http://waznelle.com
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
[WSG] Images enlarging themselves
www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/flora3.html
I have an image gallery with thumbnails and use js to enable them to
open a larger version in a box on the same page.
The problem is that some thumbnails - like the one shown - enlarge and
distort themselves instead of staying the size they actually are.
This only seems to happen with thumbnails that are taller than they are
wide. I have no idea why this is happening - there should be plenty of
room for them. I make them a max of 80px high
Is there anything in the CSS that is causing this?
Thanks
Lyn
ul id=img
lidiva href=caesia.jpg onclick=return
Genie(this.href,400,533);img alt=Caesia micrantha src=caesiath.jpg /
/a/divpemCaesia micrantha/em - Pale Grass Lily/p
/ul
ul#img {
list-style:none;
font-size: .76em;
margin:0 0 0 2em;
padding:0;
float: left;
width: 90%;
}
ul#img li {
width: 105px;
height: 160px;
float: left;
margin: 0 0.5em 0.5em 0;
background-color:#dba;
}
ul#img li div {
height: 90px;
position:relative;
background-color:#dba;
}
ul#img li img {
display:block;
position:absolute;
bottom:0;
width: 100px;
}
ul#img li p {
margin: .25em;
color: #000;
}
ul#img li p span {
font-weight:bold;
display:block;
margin-top:1em;
}
ul#img:after {
display:block;
content: ;
clear:left;
height:0;
}
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] 3 questions: flash, aimg and Ad Sense
Elle Meredith wrote:
Hey,
Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:
1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every time
a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the logo. If
you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image loads.
Would you know why this happens?
Nick answered that, Flash is an activeX object in windows IE so like
comboboxes it is rendered above everything else.
2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have
border-bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.
Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color:
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.
Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?
It has accepted it it's just that the rules you specified for the anchor
tags themselves aren't the same as the rules you've specified for the
images within the anchor tags. You could add a class to the anchor that
contains the image to differentiate it like so:
a.img { border-bottom: 0; background-color: none; }
3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it caused
errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as
XHTML strict?
You could put the ads in an iframe... not ideal. Google don't do good
markup or valid anything really, you would probably be better off with
xhtml friendly text link ads:
http://www.text-link-ads.com
Much appreciated any help,
Elle
http://waznelle.com
All the best,
Rob O
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] 3 questions: flash, aimg and Ad Sense
The first question sounds like an issue specific to the browser or the
plugin, and the third I have no information on.
For the second question, I discovered, via admittedly limited testing, that
applying a border to an anchor tag--versus text-decoration--seems to provide
some sort of mandatory padding (that's probably not the best term for it),
at least in Firefox on Linux. Declaring a separate class for anchors holding
images, wherein the border and background are eliminated, seemed to do the
trick (but I had to declare background as none, rather than
background-color).
Dan Dorman
On 1/11/07, Elle Meredith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hey,
Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:
1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every
time a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the
logo. If you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image
loads.
Would you know why this happens?
2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have border-
bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.
Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color:
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.
Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?
3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it
caused errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as
XHTML strict?
Much appreciated any help,
Elle
http://waznelle.com
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Images enlarging themselves
Lyn
You give the images a width:
ul#img li img {
display:block;
position:absolute;
bottom:0;
width: 100px;
}
So the browser automatically scales the image, ie if image was 80px high and
50px wide. The image becomes 160px high and 100px wide.
remove: width: 100px from ul#img li img and add it to ul#img li should fix
the problem
--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Images enlarging themselves
It's because you've given those images a width of 100px in your CSS. If they're narrower than that, they're going to come out distorted. On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:05:33 +1000, Lyn Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: www.westernwebdesign.com.au/test/flora3.html -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] History of CSS Question
On 1/11/07, Matthew Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All A question that's been on my mind for quite some time - why is CSS in such a whacky format? By whacky you mean lovely, correct? Can I just go on the record for saying that I think the format is wonderful? For something being used to format (X)HTML, I would have expected XML or something... Formatting it as XML sounds like a good idea for machines and would be nice as an alternative but I think the current format is much more convenient for writing CSS by hand. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Re: History of CSS Question
Title: SilverStripe Newsletter
Mind you, CSS is conveniently brief to write...
Sigurd Magnusson | Operations Director
SilverStripe
http://www.silverstripe.com
Phone:+64 4 978 7332
Fax:+64 4 978 7349
Mobile:+64 21 421 208
Skype:
Level 3, Symes De Silva House
97-99 Courtenay Place
Wellington, New Zealand
Matthew Cruickshank wrote:
Matthew Smith wrote:
A question that's been on my mind for quite some time - why is CSS in
such a whacky format?
CSS1 was designed in pre-XML times ('96), which is why we have CSS's
half-assed XPath (CSS Selectors) and namespaces. It's also why CSS is
it's own weird-ass syntax.
My personal opinion is that when CSS2 came out it should have been
XMLised because CSS1 wasn't a significant legacy (even then, browsers
could have been instructed to parse both). CSS1 didn't even have
layout, aside from floats, and people hadn't invested nearly as much
in it.
.Matthew Cruickshank
http://docvert.org Freely convert MS Word to HTML or any XML
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] History of CSS Question
Christian Montoya wrote:
By whacky you mean lovely, correct? Can I just go on the record for
saying that I think the format is wonderful?
For something being used to format (X)HTML, I would have expected XML or
something...
Formatting it as XML sounds like a good idea for machines and would be
nice as an alternative but I think the current format is much more
convenient for writing CSS by hand.
I also like the format, XML isn't some magical file format that fixes
everything. In fact i'd say it's inappropriate for something like css
which has small file-size as one of it's key benefits.
I would have preferred CSS to support nesting of rules (example below)
but what we've got works pretty well.
#header {
blah: blah;
img { blah: blah; };
+ ul { blah: blah; };
p { blah: blah; };
}
- Andrew Ingram
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
[WSG] Re: 3 questions: flash, aimg and Ad Sense
put the logo in a iframe and that should fix it. I thought iframe was deprecated in xhtml strict. You could put the ads in an iframe... not ideal. Google don't do good markup or valid anything really, you would probably be better off with xhtml friendly text link ads: http://www.text-link-ads.com I will check them next. You could add a class to the anchor that contains the image to differentiate it Declaring a separate class for anchors holding images, wherein the border and background are eliminated, seemed to do the trick I guess a class is the way to go. Thanks guys, Elle http://waznelle.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: 3 questions: flash, aimg and Ad Sense
put the logo in a iframe and that should fix it. I thought iframe was deprecated in xhtml strict. I think it is too However, I think it is the only way to get flash to play fair, so looks like it will have to be html 4.01 strict or xhtml transitional -- Nick Cowie http://nickcowie.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
