Re: [WSG] OT? - spam in forms

2007-02-15 Thread James Crooke

I think it's safe to say that blind AND deaf people surfing with
braille devices are a very small minority, and very aware of the
limitations of their system.

When you target this disabilities group, I guess you have to take the
risk of spamming and NOT use CAPTCHA.

Again, it comes down to the products/services you are selling.

That said, an ever increasing problem that I have found is that spam
bots are using email forms to spam other people; either by injecting
CC: headers into the form fields - which you can obviously detect - or
by simply abusing the form's auto responder - i.e, spamming your
form with innocent users' email addresses in the hope that your auto
responder will send them a copy of the email sent to you.

I had a recent problem where [EMAIL PROTECTED] contacted me
threatening to sue me because I sent him an email (auto responder)
containing spam.  I had to explain to him what happened and in the
end, after it happened twice more, I had to go down the CAPTCHA route.

It just depends on your situation.  You can't please everyone!  Not yet, anyway.

James

On 2/14/07, Dennis Lapcewich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

And if you are deaf, and blind?


Dennis



listdad@webstandardsgroup.org wrote on 02/14/2007 10:54:35 AM:

 I disagree, Captchas are accessible - providing you supply an audio
 alternative of course.





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Re: [WSG] OT? - spam in forms

2007-02-14 Thread James Crooke

I disagree, Captchas are accessible - providing you supply an audio
alternative of course.

On 2/15/07, Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I seem to be going through a spate of getting spam in a form on one of
 my sites (the one in the link, below, actually.)

 So I tried using PHP to randomly display an image and getting the form
 user to input what it says.

 I still get spam!   I'm presuming that this is because the spammer will
 work with javascript turned off, making the js checkform routine useless?


you appear to be doing the checking with javascript client side... that
won't stop spam robots (which ignore javascript) or any browser without
javascript,

You need to do checking for the correct answer on the server - in the php
script.

btw it also might be a good idea to include some kind of id (that can
related to the ip of the browser) as a hidden field in the form so you can
check that
the ip of the browser used to submit the form is the same as when the form
was loaded in the browser
(a lot of spambots use fake ips when posting - so checking that will in
itself keep a lot of them out, unfortunately not all of them though)







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Re: [WSG] OT? - spam in forms

2007-02-13 Thread James Crooke

Bob,

I'm not sure how hard your Captcha code is to programatically
recognise, but make sure that your not relying on sessions like this:

if($_SESSION['captcha_code'] == $_POST['user_code'])

because a robot spammer won't create a session, so its like comparing
 to  if they enter nothing in the user_code

You should do something like this:

if($_SESSION['captcha_code']  ($_SESSION['captcha_code'] ==
$_POST['user_code'])

Failing that, try doing this little trick...

1)  When the user first loads the form, set a cookie
2)  When the form is submitted, check the cookie is there
3)  If the cookie isn't there, its a robot (or someone with cookies disabled)

James



On 2/13/07, Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I seem to be going through a spate of getting spam in a form on one of
my sites (the one in the link, below, actually.)

So I tried using PHP to randomly display an image and getting the form
user to input what it says.

I still get spam!   I'm presuming that this is because the spammer will
work with javascript turned off, making the js checkform routine useless?

Sorry if this is OT - can anyone point me to a solution?

Thanks for any help . . .
--
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links

2007-01-11 Thread James Crooke

Silly point.  I'm pretty sure Krug would have designed his cover :S

We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument is
that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users sometimes think
oh the button is dead

So it's not just my personal preference to have a cursor change to a
finger-pointer on a button.


On 1/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 First things first - what makes you think that Steve Krug designed the
cover of that book? My father has authored several books, and I can tell you
that he has a fairly low regard for the designers that produce his covers,
and routinely place items upside down etc.

To answer your query, I would suggest that buttons have a different action
to hyperlinks (most of the time) so your argument that they should have the
same curser does not seem valid to me.

Mike

 --
*From:* listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *James Crooke
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:26 PM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links


 Here's one for you.

OK, we are all in agreement that its not a good idea to change the default
cursor.

But even Krug's Don't Make Me Think has a pointer (the finger cursor)
hovering over a button on the front cover of his book - yet in IE and
Firefox buttons have the cursor.

Personally I think that all buttons should have pointers, the same as
hyperlinks.  I always apply cursor:pointer to my buttons - partly because
my boss tells me too, but I also agree with him (and Krug, it seems) that it
helps usability.

Who disagrees?


On 1/10/07, Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 Patrick H. Lauke skrev:
  Quoting Anders Nawroth [EMAIL PROTECTED] :
 
  There are people who have problems to spot the cursor when it's the
  vertical bar. That would be a reason to use the arrow.
 
  Some people have very specific problems, but will have to learn how to

  adapt their user agent, or themselves, to cope with them. Breaking
  default functionality in browsers to aid these users is not a
  sustainable solution...and in an attempt to help these people, you're
  creating problems for an other section of users who actually rely on
 the
  browser's default behaviour.

 OK, I have now changed the text marker cursor on my own system, much
 easier to see it now :-)

 /anders


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Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links

2007-01-11 Thread James Crooke

So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button, (default) arrow
cursor or finger-pointer cursor?

(For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the convention of a
default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default attributes to
prevent breaking conventions.)


So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then change
it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion oh, on this

site

it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
sites it's dead.


If you have ever conducted a usability test, you will know that users will
also voice their opinions on things that effect all websites (like buttons
not having state changes).  This is where we (as designers) will respond
with well err, that's the default so we left it like that.

Incidentally, if I flip my Windows XP settings to the XP theme, my default
buttons are highlighted on hover (google search button is best example) -
whereas before (with Windows Standard theme) they are just grey and have no
hover state.  Please bear this in mind when talking about breaking the
default behaviour.  Note: as soon as you change the background color of a
button, you have broken the XP themed hover state.


Regards

James



On 1/11/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Patrick Lauke wrote:
 James Crooke

 We have conducted usability testing on 100's of sites and my argument
 is that when you hover over a button and nothing happens, users
 sometimes think oh the button is dead

 A counter argument to that:

 So they'll get confused on every site that uses a button. You then
change
 it just on one site, which only reinforces their confusion oh, on this
site
 it turns into a hand, so that means I can click it, but on these other
 sites it's dead.

 It's about consistency in browser behaviour/UI feedback (which, I'd
argue,
 is different from making design choices for the visual presentation of
 information per se).

This is an interesting philosophy.

I personally believe that Microsoft and the awful IT education in this
country (UK) have created a terrible culture of people who are so
steeped in the logic of  Microsoft's very worst user interfaces, that
they perceive and value objects akin to these systems ahead of innately
intuitive interaction processes.

A massive amount of common culture must be used on any document for it
to be legible, and in the domain of websites there is also a lot of
convention to follow. However an integral part of my job is producing
'outside-of-the-box' solutions that don't depend on a user's knowledge
of computer systems convention, and instead rely on innate human
psychology. This sounds pretentious but good designers do this (or at
least they try) all the time. Another aspect includes 'branding' sites.
There are those weirdos who want their site to look exactly like a
Windows desktop, but most people want a look and feel and way of doing
things that is unique to them and their site, which can then be
incorporated into their corporate identity.

By the way, I'm not a corporate identity or particularly commercial
designer, most of my projects are for government and non-profit
organisations.

Regards,
Barney


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Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links

2007-01-11 Thread James Crooke

Sorry, I thought Microsoft were the first to come up with the different
cursor styles.  I thought that when Susan Kare (designer of the cursors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kare) spent time at Microsoft doing
graphic design work she came up with the cursor we all know and love to
argue about.

I apologise for not knowing my cursor history.

I'd rather not argue over an opinion - I have statistics to do that for me.

Cheers guys.


On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote:

 So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button,
 (default) arrow
 cursor or finger-pointer cursor?

 (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the
 convention of a
 default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default
 attributes to
 prevent breaking conventions.)

What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in
the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case
since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the
same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human
Interface Guidelines [1].

When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor
when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a
button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely
causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons
aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI
design, which is why they give different feedback.

If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the
cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then
leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established
for a reason.

If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that
would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be
fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system.
There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if
it hinders it, it becomes a problem.

Regards,

Nick.

[1] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/
Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGCursors/chapter_15_section_2.html#//
apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002724-TPXREF101

[2] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/
Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_2.html#//
apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3359-TPXREF186

--
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http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Using cursor:default; on the whole page but links

2007-01-11 Thread James Crooke

P.S  For those that are interested: http://www.kare.com  - it's an
interesting site!

On 1/11/07, James Crooke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Sorry, I thought Microsoft were the first to come up with the different
cursor styles.  I thought that when Susan Kare (designer of the cursors 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kare
) spent time at Microsoft doing graphic design work she came up with the
cursor we all know and love to argue about.

I apologise for not knowing my cursor history.

I'd rather not argue over an opinion - I have statistics to do that for
me.

Cheers guys.


 On 1/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 11 Jan 2007, at 12:53:59, James Crooke wrote:

  So what does everyone think would suit a clickable button,
  (default) arrow
  cursor or finger-pointer cursor?
 
  (For now, let's forget the fact that Microsoft invented the
  convention of a
  default arrow and that we all tend to give in to the default
  attributes to
  prevent breaking conventions.)

 What makes you think MS invented it? On my Mac, the cursor remains in
 the default state (arrow) when over a button. This has been the case
 since I started using Macs in the early 90s. The behaviour is the
 same in all applications, and is in accordance with the Apple Human
 Interface Guidelines [1].

 When using a site which turns the cursor to the link-style cursor
 when hovering over a button, I would tend to assume that it wasn't a
 button (which causes an action [2]) but a hyperlink (which merely
 causes navigation) styled to look like a button. Links and buttons
 aren't the same thing, in terms of the fundamental principles of UI
 design, which is why they give different feedback.

 If your buttons are just links that look like buttons, then set the
 cursor to the link-style cursor; if they are action buttons, then
 leave them with the default cursor. The conventions were established
 for a reason.

 If users are confused as to where or how to click on a site, that
 would suggest to me that the design has deeper problems than can be
 fixed by mucking about with the default behaviour of the system.
 There's no reason that graphic design can't enhance usability, but if
 it hinders it, it becomes a problem.

 Regards,

 Nick.

 [1] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/
 Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGCursors/chapter_15_section_2.html#//
 apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40002724-TPXREF101

 [2] http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/
 Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGControls/chapter_18_section_2.html#//
 apple_ref/doc/uid/TP3359-TPXREF186

 --
 Nick Fitzsimons
 http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] Stylesheet problem

2006-12-02 Thread James Crooke

Hi Carolyn,

This sounds like very strange behaviour.  How are you linking to your
stylesheet?  You should use the following markup to make sure that no matter
how deep you are in the sites directory structure, browsers will always look
for the CSS file in the virtual path:

style type=text/css media=all@import /css/styles.css;/style

If your using this:

style type=text/css media=all@import css/styles.css;/style

or this:

style type=text/css media=all@import ../css/styles.css;/style

Then you will have problems.

Hope this helps

James

On 12/2/06, Carolyn Diaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have a problem with the stylesheet on a huge site. The folders are set
up on the site so that sometimes they are 5 levels deep. For example:

- Folder1

- Folder 1a

- Folder 1b

- Folder 1c

+ Folder 1d


All folders use the same stylesheet, but some of the font sizes seem to
change depending on how deep you are on the site. (I'm using percentages for
font sizes.) The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th levels seem to be using the
stylesheet in the root level as the parent and some font sizes are smaller.
Actually, one whole section of level 5 folders have font sizes that are
larger than the root level.

Has anyone ever had that happen? Will I need to stop using percentages for
font sizes?

I'm afraid I'm on a closed system, so I cannot send a link.

Thanks in advance.

Carolyn

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Re: [WSG] Styling Dynamic Text Replacement h#

2006-11-27 Thread James Crooke

sifr is a great technique!

On 11/26/06, J.D. Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On Nov 26, 2006, at 06:00 AM, CK wrote:

 Hi,

 This technique is most useful, however how can styles override the
 hard-coded PHP?

 http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dynatext

This is a nifty technique, certainly, but if your users have Flash
enabled (which is, what, 98% or something), sIFR (http://
www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/) is much easier and slicker all around.

-jd

J.D. Welch
visual communication  user interface designer
v 206 412 0420 e [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sms [EMAIL PROTECTED] aim/gtalk jaydwelch
http://www.jdwelch.net/





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Re: [WSG] Styling Dynamic Text Replacement h#

2006-11-26 Thread James Crooke

They can't, the php code is rendering an anti aliased font to a PNG image -
that's all.

On 11/26/06, CK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi,

This technique is most useful, however how can styles override the
hard-coded PHP?

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dynatext



CK


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Re: [WSG] WebSite Feedback

2006-11-25 Thread James Crooke

Everyone should use Gmail, it would solve annoyances 1 to 4.

On 11/25/06, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



On Nov 22, 2006, at 3:36 AM, Luke wrote:

 I would like to remind you that there is a advertisement in you e-mail
 signature.

Your message implied that the message from Marvin was a disguise and
that his true intention was to advertise some service.

FIY, webmails like Yahoo, hotmail, MSN and many others auto insert
advertisement at the bottom of the email and Marvin was using hotmail
- there is nothing he could do about the advertisement accept unsub
from hotmail. If it bugs you, you have the following options  1)
unsub; 2) make a  complaint to WSG admin, have them block members who
use yahoo, msn, hotmail and so on - let's pray god that your voice is
heard and your existence at WSG is essential to the WSG existence so
that it makes certain your compliant be heard and action be taken
accordingly by WSG admin; or 3) be tolerate; nobody steps on your toes.

And I would like to ask, which one annoys you most:
1) people who use html email with his/her big company logo and listed
20 lines of the service he/she offers
2) people who didn't turn off vacation notice
3) people who don't trim their messages in reply
4) people who uses hotmail or other webmail services and is innocent
like Marvin but being accused by you



Sincerely,

Tee G. Peng




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Re: [WSG] WebSite Feedback

2006-11-25 Thread James Crooke

It's far better than advertising in your email signature.

On 11/25/06, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On 11/25/06, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  4) people who uses hotmail or other webmail services and is innocent
  like Marvin but being accused by you


On 11/25/06, James Crooke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Everyone should use Gmail, it would solve annoyances 1 to 4.



Actually, the way to solve annoyance 4 is to change your attitude.
Telling someone to change their e-mail client is like telling someone
to change their browser, and we all know you can't expect that to
work. Besides, Gmail may be fancy but I doubt it is very accessible.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com


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Re: [WSG] Your email requires verification verify#ClzcCtK3WXzb3aIZxmdB6mR5lyC4TsGV

2006-11-06 Thread James Crooke
doh
On 11/6/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The message you sent requires that you verify that youare a real live human being and not a spam source.
To complete this verification, simply reply to this message and leavethe subject line intact.The headers of the message sent from your address are show below:From 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Tue Nov 07 01:17:50 2006Received: from [63.134.198.25] (helo=mail.webboy.net.au)by 
krypton.websiteactive.com with esmtp (Exim 4.52)id 1Gh5IK-00063W-A9for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 07 Nov 2006 01:17:50 +1100From: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableDate: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 01:04:03 1100Content-Type: multipart/mixed; charset=iso-8859-1; boundary=SM_c7f40542-dfc0-4b46-9893-e0cdfcf5c82e
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Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread James Crooke
Nice page Rob, I like the scrolling mark-up.
On 11/3/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello there, I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing,a friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it
immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'mstumped as to what might be causing it. The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org
 Anyone run into a similar problem before? I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing theconcept and haven't re-done any graphics yet. Cheers,Rob O
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