Re: [WSG] Article: creating drop cap on the fly

2007-02-20 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Kevin McMonagle wrote:
 

  

I'd appreciate any comment that would help me improve this article:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/the_perfect_drop_cap.asp




Looks good, if you decrease the font size by one or two than the drop cap indent goes way in. 
Is there a way to fix that. 
-best

kvnmcwbn


  


Nice work but using drop-caps you have to pay attention to line-height 
or you end up with unwanted space underneath the image. The image is 
about 57px tall so you want the line-height to be a multiple of that. 
Try adding the following to your example page to see the difference it 
makes:


p { line-height: 19px; clear: left; }

it might be better to use the em equivalent of 19px though.

Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] RSS feeds

2007-02-19 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Teresa Carroll wrote:

Hello All,

I am looking to add RSS feeds to a Web site I am developing. I was 
wondering if anyone has used a
software product that adds the links to a Web site automatically. I 
would like to hear people's thoughts and experiences

 before I began creating this part of the project.

All the best,
Teresa



Hello Teresa
   Are you using a CMS or any server-side scripts at all? It would be 
useful to know that so we can give you more specific advice. As far as 
adding the links to the site you only need to add the link to the feed 
and update the feed as more articles/content/whatever is added. It's a 
lot easier to do when the information is pulled out of a database. Or do 
you mean you want the items in the RSS feed to be listed out on the site?


   Jason - I was wondering, do you use the MagpieRSS PHP to update the 
site content and use a separate app to write articles in RSS format? 
That's a nice publishing solution if so, could be done without a 
database too.


   Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] site check in IE6 - c7designs.com

2007-02-18 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Tee G. Peng wrote:


The site is face-slapping beautiful for the first 80%, and then I
reach the footer and it's like I'm on a different site. Besides the
footer text being incredibly tiny, the lack of alignment among the
form elements makes it look like you just ignored designing that part
of the site. IMO, you should at least use some floats to give it a bit
of a grid appearance.




Hi Chris, I took another look, I think your layout as a whole lacks 
unity - you sure can do pretty design, but attention to detail 
distinguish a good design and a best design IMHO. Christian is right 
about the footer, apart from the issues he raised - input fields, 
radio buttons and textarea, and the text is too small , also, the grey 
isn't a very nice color there. Grey is a very complimenting color, but 
not in the case in your footer. I sometimes wonder, maybe it is a 
culture thing, for countless websites I have visited, that Korean and 
Hungarian designers are maestro of using grey color - they know 
exactly how, when to give grey to live, call out its emotion, make the 
layout pop by using blend, gradient, shadow or with other colors. This 
is very subjective view of me I supposed.


The footer gives an impression that you were in a rush to finish the job.

As for markup and CSS, improvement needed too. I learned from 
experience, that structural markup and CSS go hand in hand, you can't 
be a good CSS coder if you don't understand the use of structural  
semantical markup. One of the obvious example is the use of classes. 
In the front page, the two images are not horizontally line up in 
Opera and Safari. I will use float instead.


In your qualification you listed Strong foundation in web standards 
and accessibility guidelines - I expect to see you site at least pass 
section 508.



tee




Hi Chris,

   Its getting there, one thing you could try to make that form line up 
a little better is to wrap the form inputs with the associated label and 
then set 'display: block;' on the labels, this will also allow you use 
text-align. If you set 'text-align: right;' on the labels aswell it will 
make them line up nicely on that side, should be good a starting point 
for you. Use padding/margin as you see fit.


   I'll make an example tomorrow evening if you're still stuck.

   Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)

2007-02-02 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Sunday John wrote:

Yea, I agree with your comment. Contents that is available through xml for
flash improves performance. Also given the user a choice to switch to
version of site is good idea to meet end users viewing experience.

Like I said, all still boils down to the project goal, target audience and
your client.

Sunday John
Web Developer
www.isslng.com


  


True, I'm starting to realise that more and more now as the works piling 
up =$
Still, at least the world of corporate merchandise e-commerce is a 
little more accessible now =]



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)

2007-02-02 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Christian Montoya wrote:

On 2/2/07, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

miden wrote:
 Interesting letter on The Register WRT accessiblity:

 ...it's very hard to see why the tiny amount of forethought website
 authors could show toward accessibility in the very beginning is so
 terribly absent.

 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/02/letters_0202/


And that's really the key point I was trying to make when I started this
thread (which, as Russ pointed out, has morphed considerably).

Too many 'designers' regard accessibility as something you *do* to your
site *after* you've developed its visual glory, with consequent
compromises, and text-based alternatives.  It should be, instead, a
factor that influences your design choices from the beginning, sort of
given these parameters, how do we get the effect we want which is a
more sensible (and usually cheaper) option. Validate your test models
before polishing and you're more than halfway to creating a site that
satisfies on both criteria.


Now I'm just compelled to mention Faust - Flash AUgmenting STandards.
http://blog.space150.com/2007/1/11/faust-flash-augmenting-standards

A great example of Faust in practice:
http://www.ivyhotel.com/



Thanks for pointing that out Christian, I always loved flash(y) sites 
before I knew anything about web standards etc... it's nice to know that 
there are options out there, at least when I have the ability to make 
something that might be considered arty. Anyone want to lend me a copy 
of flash 8? =P


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Art and accessibility - my opinion ;)

2007-02-01 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Milosz A. Lodowski - New Media Designer wrote:
Christian in your opinion - those sites are inaccessible... without 
any argues

I cannot agree so that's why I've asked...



Accessibility is making a site available and usable to the widest 
possible audience, on as many user agents as possible. A lot of the 
sites you've picked are pure flash, while these can be made somewhat 
accessible (e.g. making the text selectable and perhaps some text 
resizing options, not playing loud music as soon as I open the site, I 
don't really know much more about making flash accessible...) the point 
is these sites will never be as accessible as properly done html/css 
sites. I couldn't use most of those sites from my mobile phone for 
example, whereas with html a stylesheet with a media type of 'handheld' 
could be implemented with no changes to the html.


Basically you can only use most of those sites if you can see and are 
using a mouse. There are lots of levels to accessibility that I'm still 
plumbing the depths of. In terms of the web 
usability/accessibility/code/design all need to work together in the 
right balance because its kind of an omni-media. You can't lump it into 
any one category other than 'web'.


And, like Christian says I'm not sure what you're asking this list for 
with regards to those sites or your idea... Do you want to discuss web 
standards and accessibility with regard to those sites? or do you just 
want to know if we think they're pretty/usable?


What is your opinion on web accessibility?

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [SPAM?] Re: [WSG] Remove 3D Border Effect from Firefox Tables

2007-01-31 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Michael MD wrote:


? I just tried sending a fairly complex HTML email that uses tables
and is *totally* styled with inline CSS to my gmail account -- and
it renders exactly as I'd expect.


That might be fine for webmail accounts where you are using a web 
browser but what about desktop email clients?


(yes Outlook/Outlook Express use IE to render html.. but what about 
others?.. can you be sure everyone's email client can even render 
tables? maybe I might be seen as old fashioned in this regard... 
but for email I prefer PLAIN TEXT - at least you can be sure 
everything can read that!)





Quite right, though I think basic html 4 with a couple of inline styles 
works on the whole.


I don't know if its come up yet on the list but things are going to get 
worse for HTML email...


http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/01/10/microsoft-breaks-html-email-rendering-in-outlook/

The crux of it is the rendering engine they are using for Outlook 2007 
is MS Word...


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] [OT] What happend to WebDesign-L?

2007-01-17 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Carl Reynolds wrote:
I apologize for an off topic question. I tried to get an answer from 
the webstandarsgroup web site first, but got no response. I'm certain 
I have seen some of the same people here and at the WebDesign-L 
mailing list so I wanted to find out if any of you have had problems 
getting mail from that list.


I had a subscription to the WebDesign mailing list at 
http://webdesign-L.com/. Suddenly, a couple months ago, I stopped 
receiving any mail from the list. I have tried to re-subscribe, with 
no response. I have tried sending messages to the list-mom at both his 
list-mom address and his private address. I get a series of responses 
that my mail can't be delivered.


I know that some of the people in the Web Standards Group also 
participate in discussions at WebDesign-List. I was wondering if any 
of the rest of you have had a similar problem with that list or was I 
suddenly banned for some reason I'm not aware of? Does anyone know if 
the WebDesign-List is still in operation?




Thanks for your response,
Carl.


Fraid not, sounds like an ISP/Hosting issue. They may have blocked the 
sender because of high traffic thinking its spam. I still receive email 
from both lists, so it's not the list-serv that's faulty. You might have 
to brave customer services for this one.


Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's

2007-01-12 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Christian Montoya wrote:

On 1/12/07, Marcio Werneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello !

I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag.

Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? - always?


I have done the following with multiple sites:

h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1

And have never seen any issues with regards to SEO.

As for semantics, if you think about it, the title of the site is in
the title tag (you know, in the head), so having a duplicate of
that in the h1 tag really isn't that useful. If you can go with just
using a div for the logo and making the h1 the title of the current
page rather than the title of the site, that's a much better option.



I do this sort of thing too, I usually place both the logo and the site 
title in an h2 in the page header and then the page title in an h1 
associated with the content, depends on the layout and what people are 
likely to be searching for. If its a small site and your page titles are 
things like 'About Us' (and other favourites) then SEO wise you are 
better off putting the site name/company name in the h1. If it's a blog 
then you want the article titles in the h1 and nice readable url.


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's

2007-01-12 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Mihael Zadravec wrote:



On 1/12/07, *Mihael Zadravec* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




On 1/12/07, *Rob O'Rourke*  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Christian Montoya wrote:
 On 1/12/07, Marcio Werneck [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello !

 I have a doubt regarding putting the logo in an H tag.

 Wrapping the website logo in an H1, is a good practice? -
always?

 I have done the following with multiple sites:

 h1img src=logo alt=site title/h1

 And have never seen any issues with regards to SEO.

 As for semantics, if you think about it, the title of the
site is in
 the title tag (you know, in the head), so having a
duplicate of
 that in the h1 tag really isn't that useful. If you can go
with just
 using a div for the logo and making the h1 the title of the
current
 page rather than the title of the site, that's a much better
option.


I do this sort of thing too, I usually place both the logo and
the site
title in an h2 in the page header and then the page title in an h1
associated with the content, depends on the layout and what
people are
likely to be searching for. If its a small site and your page
titles are
things like 'About Us' (and other favourites) then SEO wise
you are
better off putting the site name/company name in the h1. If
it's a blog
then you want the article titles in the h1 and nice readable url.

Rob



I you'd listen to screen reader... (I use JAWS), you could se the
diference in expirience  I still claim it is absolutly better,
if it's headeing... let it be text. Screen reader otherwise reads
it heading one. image graphics. Company logo ... it is much much
more nicer if it says heading one. Company name dash online
computer store

image graphics bla bla... and than you also need to point out with
alt text that the image graphic is Somecompanyname logo...
I prefer the text in headings.



EDIT - ROB, don't get me wrong... When I said If you'd listen to 
screen reader, I was not pointing at you... It was just a figure of 
speech and for those who did not listen to screen reader...


cya!
Mihael




No worries Mihael, i think you wanted to say if you have ever listened 
to a screen reader.


When I say I put the logo in a header it's because It's my opinion that 
it is an important part of the document and should be in the html as 
with other images that are relevant to the document. A website ideally 
should be accessible to everyone, sighted or not so I don't code 
specifically for screen readers nor any user agent. I always try to code 
a nice, meaningful document. 'Try' is the operative word there, one 
thing that's clear is that any consensus from these discussions is hard 
to come by.


I've not managed to get a screen-reader working very well for testing so 
far, does anyone know of one (preferably free) that provides a fairly 
typical screen reader experience?


JAWS is a bit out of my price range.

Cheers
Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Free Screen Readers

2007-01-12 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Hi everyone,

   While we are on the subject I remembered something I came across 
ages ago and never took the time to get to know how to use it.


The site is http://www.webbie.org.uk
The page that explains its use is 
http://www.webbie.org.uk/webbiefordesigners.htm and definitely worth 
more than a quick scan.


I had absolutely no idea about the windows narrator function (windows 
key + U) which webbie works with to give something like the screen 
reader experience. Not exact obviously but close enough to provide some 
insight, and its FREE =]


I'm going to evaluate it further this time, see how useful it can be.

Happy coding everyone,
Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-11 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Mihael Zadravec wrote:


Oh boy..! Ok..!.  :D I am not the author of that page.
It was just a bad examle of Blind people community website :D

But hey!..thanks for links anyway!

cya!
Mihael



Haha! sorry Mihael I thought it was your site and you were asking for 
comments!


d'oh

and yes, it is very sad..



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] 3 questions: flash, aimg and Ad Sense

2007-01-11 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Elle Meredith wrote:

Hey,

Just got 3 questions that are actually on 3 separate subjects:

1. I have a flash slide show in a page header and the page's logo is 
positioned absolutely with higher z-index on top of the flash object 
but only some of the logo is on top of the flash slideshow. Every time 
a new image loads up in the flash movie, it hides part of the logo. If 
you hover on the logo, it comes back up till the next image loads.

Would you know why this happens?


Nick answered that, Flash is an activeX object in windows IE so like 
comboboxes it is rendered above everything else.




2. Situation is:
I declare a general rule that says that all my links will have 
border-bottom of some kind or background color when hovering on them.

Then I have an image that is also a link.
Even though I declare: a img {border-bottom: 0; background-color: 
none;}, it doesn't have any effect and I still get a border-bottom or 
can see background color on hover where I have padding around the image.

Why wouldn't it accept my second rule?



It has accepted it it's just that the rules you specified for the anchor 
tags themselves aren't the same as the rules you've specified for the 
images within the anchor tags. You could add a class to the anchor that 
contains the image to differentiate it like so:


a.img { border-bottom: 0; background-color: none; }

3. I recently added Google AdSense to my validated pages and it caused 
errors on my page.
Is there anything I could do to still have pages that validate as 
XHTML strict?




You could put the ads in an iframe... not ideal. Google don't do good 
markup or valid anything really, you would probably be better off with 
xhtml friendly text link ads:

http://www.text-link-ads.com


Much appreciated any help,

Elle
http://waznelle.com   



All the best,
Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] ainput//a - how wrong?

2007-01-10 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Barney Carroll wrote:

...snip...

Update:
Couldn't get csshover.htc to work - dumped it in with my stylesheets 
and called it via body{behavior:url(stylesheets/csshover.htc)} but it 
wouldn't have any effect... May turn out to be a stupid oversight...

...snip...

Regards,
Barney




Hi Barney,
I knew there was something not quite straightforward about the htc, 
forgot to add this link. It may be to do with your hosting provider, if 
you can get in touch and confirm the mimetype they deliver htcs with is 
set to text/x-component it should work. If thats not the issue send us a 
link or test page.


http://support.microsoft.com/kb/306231


Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-10 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Hassan Schroeder wrote:

Steve Green wrote:
  

We do a lot of user testing with screen reader users,...



  

Also Flash movies are made in layers.



Have you tested any (non-timelined) Flex-based sites or apps?

  


Just my two pence but I think what you really need to do is add an audio 
layer to that flash site. As an example one of the sites we host (its 
not at all accessible code-wise) has audio to say hello and indicate 
what you can do on a page. I think similar use of audio on that site to 
read it from the flash would be a nice touch. Then it'd be accessible to 
blind users who don't have a screenreader too (...they must exist)


Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-10 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

Audio opens up a new can of worms. It certainly should not start
automatically because that causes problems for several user groups, not just
those with disabilities. It could benefit some users but you shouldn't
implement it in a way that is to the detriment of others.

Some blind people use Braille displays rather than screen readers but this
is not common. I don't see the benefit of adding audio unless the Flash
content is 100% accessible, in which case it ought not to be necessary.
Navigating with a screen reader or Braille device is a lot slower than using
a graphical browser, so users don't want to spend time doing anything that
isn't really necessary.

Steve
 

  


Hi Steve,

To be honest I'd not thought about the problems audio in flash could 
cause further than interfering with whatever music i've got on in the 
background =$


I'd like to find out more about it because I've just made an audio blog 
for my brother, can you point me to any resources or articles that 
discuss the topic?


Rob

PS. Its just clicked, will a screen reader play the audio and try and 
read text at the same time? I can imagine that would get a bit 
cacophonous (my big word for the day).



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Use of audio in Flash and on web pages in general - FROM: my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-10 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Matthew Smith wrote:

Quoth (haha) Rob O'Rourke at 01/11/07 03:57...

Just my two pence but I think what you really need to do is add an 
audio layer to that flash site. As an example one of the sites we 
host (its not at all accessible code-wise) has audio to say hello and 
indicate what you can do on a page. I think similar use of audio on 
that site to read it from the flash would be a nice touch. Then it'd 
be accessible to blind users who don't have a screenreader too 
(...they must exist)


Unanticipated sound can cause issues.  I have problems with Web 
content that a) makes noises without asking and/or b) has movement 
without asking.*


Please don't do this, unless it is by activation of a 'play audio' 
control.


Cheers

M

* Presentation: The Forgotten Difficulties - Fatigue and the Web
http://www.smiffysplace.com/ozewai2006/



Cheers Steve and Matthew,

I've created a new topic because its not related to the previous topic 
any more.


I can see the issue with this, I've removed the autostart I had on the 
flash player, the nice thing is I can add javascript controls to the 
page (I've already got a cookie that remembers the players current state 
when you navigate to another page/elsewhere).


I have a div with skip-to links positioned off page, do you think it 
would be enough to add a header that says mp3 player controls and then 
list them there?


I've tried it anyway, i would appreciate your (everyones) thoughts on 
the accessibility of this approach.


The site is http://brendan.o-rourke.org, not much on there content wise 
yet because i still have to show him how to use textpattern =P


Cheers


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-10 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Jermayn Parker wrote:

The thing that gets me with this discussion is why create all these features 
to cover up the problem?

If you created it in XHTML/ php etc and not flash, you would not have these 
problems and then you would not have to spend extra time fixing the problems 
that has been caused by using flash.


  


My apologies for confusing the issue at hand:
Mihael only has a single splash page with flash. The rest is a heavily 
table-based layout using frames, a slightly bigger problem I think 
(despite not being able to navigate to the rest of the site without 
flash as was pointed out).



Mihael, have a look at the CSS-Discuss wiki for some good articles about 
creating layouts like yours using CSS:

http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts

In particular there are some ready made three column layouts that might 
be useful.


Also when/if you do update the site make use of the w3c validators to 
check your code:

http://validator.w3.org/ - for html
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ - for css


Just ask if you get stuck.
Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Last letter of a line appearing on next row (IE6...)

2006-12-14 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:

On 13 Dec 2006, at 22:18:42, Rob O'Rourke wrote:

I need to get control of what hasLayout and what doesn't before I can 
work out what's really going on.




Use Microsoft's IE Developer Toolbar's DOM Inspector:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=e59c3964-672d-4511-bb3e-2d5e1db91038displaylang=en 



It will allow you to walk through the DOM tree for your page; 
hasLayout will show up in the Styles pane for all elements having 
that most peculiar property.


HTH,

Nick.
--Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/



I like it, thanks!
I need to turn google toolbar off to use it though, tried outlining 
inputs and it crashed my PC. It doesn't surprise me in the least 
though... I'm getting a mac for christmas =]


Cheers Nick

Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] Last letter of a line appearing on next row (IE6...)

2006-12-13 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Hi all,

I had the last letter of some floated form elements appearing on the
next line. I've managed to get rid of the letter itself with position:
relative; on the form input but there's still a 'phantom line' in IE
adding a load of 'padding' to the bottom of the label or fieldset.

The problem wasn't there when I isolated the 'my details' fieldset
however it is apparent when you look at the whole form:

http://www.sanchothefat.com/dev/phantom-line.html
(CSS is inline)

There are some other problems I've noticed when viewing the form in a
fluid state, namely with the password fieldset being out of alignment
when the page first loads in IE6 and also the shorter post code input
can't decide if it's on the form or not. The rendering in Firefox, IE7
and Opera is what I'm after although Opera puts a little bit of space in
front of the email and password inputs, I'm guessing it's white-space so
not too big a deal.

I've tried everything I can think of so far but hopefully it's an easy
one to fix...

Thanks in advance,
Rob




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Last letter of a line appearing on next row (IE6...)

2006-12-13 Thread Rob O'Rourke

� wrote:

Rob O'Rourke wrote:
I had the last letter of some floated form elements appearing on the 
next line. I've managed to get rid of the letter itself with

position: relative; on the form input but there's still a 'phantom
line' in IE adding a load of 'padding' to the bottom of the label or
fieldset.



http://www.sanchothefat.com/dev/phantom-line.html


Have you tried adding...
* html option {display: none;}
...?
That addition improves things in my IE6 (on win2K).

regards
Georg


Nope, I would never have considered that option! (no pun intended) very 
bizarre behaviour... but then again it's IE6. Thanks a million Georg.


I found the PIE page i was looking for [1], it was the duplicate 
characters bug however none of the triggers mentioned on that page were 
present... as far as i could work out anyway. At least the fix mentioned 
on the page works, along with overflow: hidden;


* html option { display: none; }
* html label.del-post-code { margin-right: -3px; overflow: hidden; }
* html label.business-type { margin-right: -3px; overflow: hidden; }

This seems to have done the trick but I still can't work out why the 
initial page rendering is off sometimes. At least it doesn't appear out 
of line in the layout its currently starring in so that's something.


Thanks again Georg,
Rob O

[1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/dup-characters.html


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Last letter of a line appearing on next row (IE6...)

2006-12-13 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:

On 13 Dec 2006, at 19:39:17, Rob O'Rourke wrote:
I found the PIE page i was looking for [1], it was the duplicate 
characters bug however none of the triggers mentioned on that page 
were present... as far as i could work out anyway.

[1] http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/dup-characters.html


It's probably your input type=hiddens; they're mentioned as 
triggering the bug in the paragraph beginning Update! July 5, 2004 
about halfway down the page.


Regards,

Nick.
--Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/



Hi Nick,

Thats just it, there are no input type=hiddens or any none displayed 
elements in the places it says are the trigger points e.g. between 
floats. I read the whole PIE page but it describes the cure and not the 
symptom in this case. Unless of course you want to generalise and 
describe the symptom as IE6 =P


I need to get control of what hasLayout and what doesn't before I can 
work out what's really going on.


Thanks,
Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Semantics of news

2006-12-09 Thread Rob O'Rourke

What about
h2Title of the article span class=date9-12-2006/span/h2

?

I must admit i'm a bit of a css positioning junkie, I always do stuff 
like that in my h1s but thats the structure i use for my news articles.


Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Semantics of news

2006-12-09 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

Mike,

Thats an interesting point.  I always thought that any given dt or 
dd should hold one piece of information only. If nesting stuff 
inside them like that is completely legit that certainly opens up a 
lot of possibilities.


Consider this:

dl
   dtimg src=house_photo.jpg //dt
   dt123 Property Address/dt
   dd3 Bedrooms | 1.5 Baths/dd
   dd$150,000/dd
   ddView Link/dd
/dl

This is how I've been marking up property lists (single list unit 
shown), which is where my previous example was coming from.  Your 
example seems to capture the information relationship pretty well 
thoughh


Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:


I'm curious, Joseph, wouldn't that be better like this?

h2Our News/h2
dl
   dt2006-12-09/dt
   dd
   h3News Headline/h3
   pTeaser statement for the article./p
   pLink to Full Story/p
   /dd
/dl

Assuming of course this would be valid as it would be with any other 
kind of list (I didn't check).


Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/




Hi,

On the topic of using definition lists in this sense I know some people 
would argue that the examples above aren't semantically accurate. I have 
seen dls used as a way of organising Name-Value pairs which I've 
recently implemented on some product detail screens but is an article's 
*date* defined by its *excerpt*? Wouldn't an ordered list be better? (or 
unordered, I'm not that fussy =P) eg.


ul class=news-articles
   li
  div class=date09-12-2006/div
  h2Article title/h2
  pExcerpt here/p
  a href=full-articleRead the whole thing/a
   /li
/ul

Also, why does the date need to come first? And does it really need to 
be a heading?  I'm actually asking because I've thought about it but 
never really drawn any solid conclusions.


Just some thoughts,
Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Semantics of news

2006-12-09 Thread Rob O'Rourke

akella wrote:

The date in design - so it's just better for it to go first in code
too. 


Right, thanks. It makes sense and it seems to be the norm on every news 
related thing I've looked at in the last half hour.



So my problem was that i just cant use h3-h2 - considering its
not logically correct.
As for your structure
ul class=news-articles
  li
 div class=date09-12-2006/div
 h2Article title/h2
 pExcerpt here/p
 a href=full-articleRead the whole thing/a
  /li
/ul

May be then this would be the best one:
small09-12-2006/small
h2Article title/h2
pExcerpt here/p



Yep, or any variation on that I guess. Ideally there'd be a date tag 
but lets not go there :-)


Cheers,
Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] containing div not streching

2006-12-05 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Robin @ Xplore.net wrote:

I am having a problem in firefox with my outer div not streching when the
inner div content exceeds the template width, the page looks ok in ie7,
could anyone enlighten me please.

http://gilescadman.com/test_folder/index.htm

thanks

Robin 

  
Sounds like IE7 is incorrectly expanding the height of #main, you can 
either float #main to contain the two floated columns or set overflow: 
hidden; on #main to contain them.


You may find those images at the bottom have the bottom border going 
over the top of them aswell, add position: relative; to #images or to 
the images themselves e.g. #images img and you should be ok... hopefully =]


Im not sure how well I explained that, if i've confused you let me know 
and i'll go into more detail.


Have fun,
Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] The Decline of Print Styles

2006-12-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
There is a few PHP (and php+perl/etc) things out there that do html to 
pdf but none of them are quite right. One will find that they need to 
spend a lot of time tweaking their output and if you are printing with 
complex floats even add additional markup to compensate for bugs. So 
thats not quite a good option yet either.



Ive been writing print stylesheets and then printing to PDF from the 
browser (firefox) with PrimoPDF (http://www.primopdf.com) to create pdf 
files when I or a client needs them, doesn't quite solve the problem but 
it comes in handy. I think those sites that use a stylesheet-switcher to 
switch to a printer-friendly version to make the layout and so on 
simpler, hiding useless/irrelevant objects from the printed page and 
still maintaining the look and feel of the sites formatting work very 
well on the whole.


If we never use the print css tools people will never catch on and 
browser support will continue to be flaky. On the topic of weird and 
wonderful print css glitches never use white-space: pre; with IE6 print 
css because it's well... you guessed it, it's broken (at least in 
conjunction with lists that is).


Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] Accessibility of forms, do you always need a label with drop downs?

2006-11-22 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Hi all,

   Just a quick question, I was wondering if anyone has had any
experience with or has read something about the accessibility of a form
that uses the value attribute to convey what the field is for. I'm
talking about those forms where there is something already filled in for
the field to tell you what it's for. I'm not keen on the practice myself
but the case I'm curious about is when using a select drop down box.
   The search form here http://www.tradeonly.co.uk takes this approach.
The site isn't by any means a shining example of accessibility anyway
but I'm just interesting in your views on this approach.

   I was thinking about positioning the labels off-screen as a 
workaround (much as I don't want to but it's a request from above).


   Cheers,
   Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Accessibility of forms, do you always need a label with drop downs?

2006-11-22 Thread Rob O'Rourke

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

We come across this sort of thing a lot during user testing and we find that
default text in textboxes and text areas causes loads of problems. However,
using the default value of a combobox as the label generally works well and I
have never seen it cause any problems.

I suppose there could be a minor problem if that field also appears on a
subsequent page (such as in a multi-stage transaction) because it will be then
set to the value the user selected originally rather than the default value.
However, not only is this situation rare, but the user ought to recognise that
it is displaying the value they selected.

The technique works particularly well when more than one combobox is used for
a single piece of data such as date of birth. The use of multiple labels for
such fields causes both visual and audible (for screen readers) clutter, in
which case it is often preferable to have a single text label for the whole
group and use the default combobox values as labels for each field.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk



  

That's great, thanks Steve and thanks Mike.
Every day's a school day...

Cheers,
Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] FF understands body:last-child

2006-11-16 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Barney Carroll wrote:

Anybody know about this?

body:last-child ... {}

I saw this a while back and chuckled, but today I found cause to use 
it. It's supposedly a hack for WebKit browsers (I don't understand how 
there could be any ambiguity over what the last child of the body 
could be, but there you go). I've seen examples of such rules only 
being picked up by my Safari, with everything else I've got ignoring 
it - however when I applied it myself it was picked up by Safari and 
my Firefox.


Any idea why this is?

Regards,
Barney



It's CSS3, there're loads of cool pseudo classes like this coming along 
in the future but Firefox supports a few already. I can't remember which 
exactly. Have a look at this article, interesting stuff:


http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200601/css_3_selectors_explained/

Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] how to retain equal height without losing layout integrity when user resizes font size

2006-11-06 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Tee G. Peng wrote:




Seems odd that resizing the font would affect the bottom margins. Do 
you have a demo or screenshot? I'll have a go at getting it to work 
myself but I think that the table-layout method would be best for 
forward compatibility. Keep us posted.




Rob, was experimenting different methods and I must say, using Georg's 
method for advanced browsers and height with EM [1] for IE works 
appear to be  the best for my situation (still need refinement for the 
two buggers though!)


I am posting the results for different approaches I have tried.


This page is set the height with EM (no content wrapper) for all 
browsers that you want to see. The height shrink or expand depending 
on the font size increases /decreases. I thought this is the normal 
behavior for EM value, not quite understand why you said it shouldn't.

http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/SH-new/with_height.html


I meant that I don't know why there would be an undesirable amount of 
space at the bottom. I've put together a quick example to demonstrate my 
idea, works in FF, IE6 and Opera. I've placed CSS background-colours on 
the blocks to avoid that white background showing through and a div at 
the top with the darker background-colour set in the CSS too.


http://www.sanchothefat.com/dev/list-help/tgp.htm

That's the kind of thing I was getting at, I'm afraid I don't have time 
to play with the display: table stuff right now, good luck with it!




Finally comes the one with Georg' method
http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/SH-new/georg_method.html

in IE 6, the background images for each block are gone, I think it's 
caused by (overflow:hidden), whereas in IE 7, the vertical scrolling 
still exist  (with overflow:hidden), and the background images are 
pushed to the very bottom of the page. Georg, please help!




Are they pushed to the bottom even when the background-position is set 
to top?


Take it easy,
Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-04 Thread Rob O'Rourke

~davidLaakso wrote:

Rob O'Rourke wrote:

~davidLaakso wrote:
And perhaps a little contemplation about the questions you did not 
ask with regard to that page...? 


I wanted to think about other things for a while... I'd love to hear 
any suggestions as to where I could improve it. I honestly don't know 
what other questions to ask, I've had no other criticism bar the 
Safari issue so far.

No criticism here. Just some light entertainment and food for thought:
-- If it can be said a page exists for a reason, just what is the 
reason your page exists?




Woops forgot to change the email address to the list. It's a fair 
comment, but I'm currently looking for work in the Liverpool/Manchester 
area (UK), hopefully it'll get me some interviews...


Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-04 Thread Rob O'Rourke



snip


Sorry everyone, went OT there. That last reply to my thread wasn't meant 
to go to the list.


Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] how to retain equal height without losing layout integrity when user resizes font size

2006-11-04 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Tee G. Peng wrote:
Hi, I am doing a layout that requires equal height for each column and 
row, however the contents inside of each column and row are different 
and in some pages, in certain sections, the length of the content will 
be decided by end users' data feed. Each column, each row has its own 
background color (gradient image). I don't want to set 'height' 
attribute; I maybe able to play with pixel perfect with precise 
calculation  to obtain equal height but when a user resize font size, 
the integrity will be lost.


Here is a mockup screen shot, client got everything precisely line up:
http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/ss.png

an untidy layout I just did
http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/ss02.png

my markup is such:

div class=left_colFirst row, first column /div   
div class=right_colFirst row, second column /div


div class=left_colsecond row, first column /div   
div class=right_colsecond row, second column /div


I was thinking if I insert a wrapper for each row so it looks like so

 div class=wrapper
div class=left_colFirst row, first column /div   
div class=right_colFirst row, second column /div

/div

 div class=wrapper
div class=left_colsecond row, first column /div   
div class=right_colsecond row, second column /div

/div


However with different background colors that are controlled by 
gradient images, it seems pointless to do so.


Your suggestion deeply appreciated!

Thanks!

tee



Hi Tee,

If those blocks always contain similar output you could float your 
blocks left to stack them up and set the height in ems. Seems to me the 
easiest way to do a layout like that.


e.g.

div id=container

div class=left id=bookmarks/div
div class=right id=people/div
div class=left id=sites/div
div class=right id=tags/div

/div

and then CSS like:

#container { width: 830px; } /* to leave a 30px gap in the middle e.g.  
|400px| 30px |400px|  */
.left, .right { height: 60em; width: 400px; margin-bottom: 30px; } /* 
whatever your dimensions need to be */

.left { float: left; clear: left; }
.right { float: right; clear: right; }


That way your blocks have equal height and width, will stack as per the 
image and you have a nice semantic unique id on each to apply styles 
with. Might need some tweaking for cross-browser goodness but in a fixed 
width layout that code should be safe to work from.


Hope that gives you some ideas.
Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Hello there,

   I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing,
a friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it
immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'm
stumped as to what might be causing it.

   The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org

   Anyone run into a similar problem before?

   I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing the
concept and haven't re-done any graphics yet.


   Cheers,
  Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump
immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is when it
jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you press the Tab
key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is turned off.
Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it.

  


Thanks for confirming that Steve,

I've taken all the javascript out because its kinda pointless in this 
instance. Can you check if the same happens on this page please?:


http://robert.o-rourke.org/undex.php

I've removed the anchor link which might have been the reason for it... 
guess it's a process of elimination from here on.



Cheers,
Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but I
never tried it).

If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page continuously
reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender and Web
Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the 'beachball of
death' appears and I have to force quit the browser.

We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this.

Steve


  


:$

poop... I don't think on online cv that breaks safari is going to get me 
very far...

I've stripped out the CSS now... any joy?

It seems to work ok in swift except it loads up with the high contrast 
large print css for some reason.


Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke



It's now jumping on load to the bit where you have:

object style=display:none; data=#robert-orourke class=include 
type=text/html/object


just before

h3 class=summary titleWeb Designer and Developer/h3

so it looks like something to do with the object referencing part of 
the page via a URL hash.


As to why you're embedding the page in itself as an object, I really 
can't guess...


HTH,

Nick.
--Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/




=D

Nice one Nick, I think you've cracked it

Those objects are in there to reference my personal hCard from my 
experience ones its one of the microformats design patterns, I was just 
trying to be all fancy-pants clever so I've used hyperlinks instead.


Cheers for the help guys, 'preciate it

Rob O



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

It seems better but when I hover over a link it still reloads, jumps down to
the Cocktail Bartender subheading then up to the Web Designer subheading. At
least it doesn't bounce up and down continuously and crash the browser.

Steve
 

  
Is that even with the objects removed? If so I'll take out those links 
altogether and get on the uF-discuss list about it.


Cheers,

Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Steve Green wrote:

No, it's ok now. My last post was before you removed the objects.

Steve
 

  


WooHoo! I was all ready to drown my sorrows in lager but this deserves a 
martini =]


Nice one

Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Are we turning the tide?

2006-11-03 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Dwain Alford wrote:



Where I am (Ithaca NY), there's very little CSS-based work; they even
teach outdated practices:
http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/11/02/advanced-html/


where i am (winfield, alabama) they still use frames and tables and do 
it wysiwyg.  they know nothing of seo.  a new client can't even use 
the domain name they are paying for because the host who registered 
the name registered it in his name and won't transfer the name to them.


sorry, i stray.  when adobe, macromedia and microsoft gave us go live, 
dreamweaver and front page, they did to web design what george eastman 
did to photography; everybody became a web designer and a photographer.


i haven't been designing with css and xhtml very long (2 years this 
past summer) and there is much i still have to learn, but when i knew 
there was a better way and began to learn about standards i jumped on 
board with both feet.



i try to promote standards whenever i can.  i try to educate our small 
client base to the importance of standards and seo.  i might even 
start a group for web designers in this booming metropolis of around 
4,000 and see if we can get together and make the web a better place.



ok, i'm getting delusional, so i'll stop.  in closing, if one designer 
a day can be brought into the ranks of standards compliant design then 
there is hope.


dwain



The only answer is to keep up the good work, I think web standards must 
be gaining a lot of ground because when I started out learning I was 
almost immediately directed to the CSS zengarden by a friend. After 
trolling through tons of everyone else's code and learning by doing I 
saw the value in it and found the enthusiasm of other standardistas 
infectious.


I'm in the fortunate position of never having learnt any old-hat methods 
and having potential bad habits drummed out of me by peer review on 
mailing lists such as this. Hopefully this will be true for more and 
more new designers and developers in the coming years. The good news is 
that advocates of web standards will more than likely be at the top of 
the search engine results these days. That's usually the first place 
anyone looks for good tutorials/info.


Also, just in this past year I've noticed many websites e.g. The 
University Of Bristol's website have been brought up to speed (only the 
public facing section so far but it's a start). Sites that don't catch 
up will eventually fall behind and drop off the radar (fingers crossed).


Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Rotten Standardistas

2006-11-02 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Tony Crockford wrote:

Christian Montoya wrote:

Otherwise I
will just have to keep on assuming that these specters don't exist.


There are one or two font-size fanatics that will accuse you of not 
respecting your users if you feel the need to set a font size other 
than default.


does that count?


I used to think so till I found out why exactly. Different users may 
have an unusual default font-size set, if you set anything other than 
the default font-size *on the body* it means they end up not getting the 
size they wanted/need. You can set your different font-sizes on the 
elements within at your leisure. I still don't quite get what the 
difference is but seeing as font-size on the web is completely arbitrary 
(or should be) it doesn't make a difference. You have to set font-sizes 
relative to the users default for your elements anyway.


The choice is yours but at least base it on what you know for a fact 
about every potential visitor in your target audience.


Rob O


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Correct markup for a chat board?

2006-10-24 Thread Rob O'Rourke

morten fjellman wrote:

Hi list,
I'm marking up a chat board, and I'm wondering how I should tag the 
actual message? The message would typically be:

NickName says:
Ain't this cool?

I was thinking a DL, like this:

dl
 dtNickName says:/dt
 ddAin't this cool?/dd
/dl

Am I way off here?

Kind regards
Morten



   Looks good to me, you could then do the skype style thing where if 
NickName types two messages in a row you'd just write out another dd. 
I prefer that to other IM programs.
   For marking up the relationship between name and message(s) I 
couldn't think of a more suitable structure offered by HTML.


   Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Correct markup for a chat board?

2006-10-24 Thread Rob O'Rourke

James Crooke wrote:

*frowns*




Using dl for marking up dialogue is generally frowned upon because
dl is
widely considered to be for marking up definitions.  Tantek has
provided
a more semantic example of in a old presentation of his.

See XHTML Compound: Conversation.
http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/#slide22
http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/#slide22




You should probly take Tantek's advice there Lachlan =]



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Correct markup for a chat board?

2006-10-24 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

Rob O'Rourke wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:
Using dl for marking up dialogue is generally frowned upon 
because dl is widely considered to be for marking up 
definitions.  Tantek has provided a more semantic example of in 
a old presentation of his.


See XHTML Compound: Conversation.
http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/#slide22


You should probly take Tantek's advice there Lachlan =]


Why? What are you referring to?

I meant Morten should use Tantek's example, I was getting my wires 
crossed. Seriously they're all over the place...
Anyway my bad, Tantek's method of marking up a chat will blatantly be 
right on or at least closer to the money is what I meant to say.

Sorry for any confusion.

Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] remove links to self the easy way

2006-10-23 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Anders Nawroth wrote:


Terrence Wood skrev:
Here's the easy fix: just remove the href attribute. An anchor 
element sans ANY attribute is perfectly acceptable HTML[3]. It 
inherits CSS as expected and doesn't appear in any link collection.




I've found that IE has problems when applying CSS to an anchor tag that 
has no href. It depends on whether you style the anchor on it's own ie. 
a {  } or as a:link { ... } in the CSS, I think this method requires 
the former selector.




I use this a lot.

Still one problem:
Sometimes it is confusing, not beeing able to tab into the menu item.
(Like in a tree menu, where the current item is a folder in the menu.)
In that case I set the href to javascript:; and use a class or id to 
style it.
(actually, I do this with client-side scripting, and have no href 
attribute in the markup)


/AndersN



I also find that instead of removing the anchor tag altogether, 
replacing it with another tag like strong or em provides the 
necessary CSS hook to keep the menu nice. The difference is also visible 
without extra CSS if its a plain list.


My two pence,
   Rob





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] can the legend include block level elements

2006-10-13 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Mel wrote:

on 13/10/2006 19:29 Rob O'Rourke said the following:

I thought the legend tag was supposed to offer some effects for 
screen readers when reading out the form controls. Out of curiosity 
do you know which screen reader it is?


JAWS? I've come across some evidence that suggest that, when in Forms 
Mode, JAWS will only read text enclosed in form controls. Assuming 
that JAWS correctly identifies legend as a bona fide form control, it 
should render the legend before reading out the inputs. Text within 
the form tags that aren't enclosed in form controls, however, may be 
missed.


I'm currently trying to find out if this is still the case with the 
latest version of JAWS and whether it's an issue with other screen 
readers. If it is, it impacts on additional text/instructions that 
might accompany specific inputs.


JAWS isn't all that good if thats the case... I'm interested in hearing 
what you find out, i tried installing JAWS once but it broke everything 
so I've not dared since.


If I we're you I'd just give the legends an accesskey, then you have 
navigation across more of browser land.


How do you communicate the approprate accesskey to the user? My own 
research amongst keyboard navigators suggest that very few, if any, 
will bother to 'learn' accesskeys associated with a specific site. 
After all, would you? If people don't already 'know' the relevant 
accesskey, its usefulness becomes debatable.


Mel


Fair point but it depends on a lot of things, if the form is used 
regularly like a login or cms backend or shopping basket then accesskeys 
couldn't hurt, although it would require some preamble text to let the 
user what they are. If Personally if I really needed them I'd learn them 
but even if the user can't be bothered learning them it couldn't hurt to 
have them in there whether its on a legend or not.

Interesting topic this one.

   Take it easy,
  Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

2006-10-11 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Tee G. Peng wrote:

Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because 
her client's programmer said dl is not standard practise. She also 
questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she 
said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation 
from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting.




Alright Tee,

Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have 
multiple dds ? That might be what they were getting at. You can nest 
almost anything inside a dd so that might be another solution.


Do you know what the scripts will be doing with the markup e.g. 
resizing, hiding, doing backflips etc..?


Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be 
why. Annoying as it may be.


   Rob


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

2006-10-11 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Christian Montoya wrote:

On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Tee G. Peng wrote:

 Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because
 her client's programmer said dl is not standard practise. She also
 questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she
 said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation
 from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting.


Alright Tee,

Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have
multiple dds ?


Yes.


Cool


Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be
why.


Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as
long as it is a block by default in this case.


Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been messing 
with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE quirks and 
cross browser differences even before adding any scripts. I'm just 
offering suggestions as to why the programmer might have said its not 
standard. I don't think its right to make a judgement about their html 
abilities without more info from Tee.


   Take it easy,
  Rob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise

2006-10-11 Thread Rob O'Rourke

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Rob O'Rourke wrote:

Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been 
messing with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE 
quirks and cross browser differences even before adding any scripts.


Strange, I've never had issues like that with DLs...unless some bits 
of CSS got lost in the leaky internet tubes. Do you have any more info 
on this?


Patrick


   I do indeed, its a combination of lost CSS (the tubes round here are 
FULL of holes) and too much CSS dependency going on (bad habit of mine).


   The problems were with a liquid form layout I was doing for a new 
cms with tooltips floated left and the labels and form controls in 
regular flow inside the dd's. Plus nearly everything had % widths which 
doesn't make things any easier for IE. Anyway, fluid stuff and floats 
can cause some issues if the CSS is not specific enough but quirksmode 
sorted it all out in the end.


   Rob (random css department)



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***