RE: [WSG] layout - choices?

2007-02-22 Thread Steve Green
Could you elaborate on the misuse of dls?

I can't remember any specific instances but over the last year on this list
there have been numerous discussions where people were trying to shoehorn
tabular data into definition lists when they clearly should have been using
tables. Nick has obviously noticed the same trend. I don't have time to look
them up but I'll let you know if I remember any. I'll certainly shout the
next time someone does it!

Steve


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barney Carroll
Sent: 22 February 2007 16:24
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] layout - choices?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I would disagree with the statement It is all semantics, and will be 
 seen by most designers as fundamentally incorrect and misleading. I 
 suspect the actual figure would be nearer 0.1% of designers, although 
 most on this list would likely agree with the statement.
 
 Steve

Steve, you're probably a bit nearer the mark on that one. I was talking
within the context of markup nerd lists (which I occasionally forget are not
all that indicative of the real world).

Could you elaborate on the misuse of dls?


Regards,
Barney


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RE: [WSG] Site check andrewingram.net

2007-02-19 Thread Steve Green
It's not just blind users. In our user testing we find that new windows
cause problems for many user groups, although the reasons differ.
 
Screen magnifier users are often unaware that a new window has opened
because even a relatively small window fills their entire screen area.
 
Screen reader users are notified that a new window is opening but sometimes
don't notice this warning because they are still digesting the content they
were listening to on the previous page.
 
Even a fully able user with voice recognition software repeatedly failed to
notice new windows opening in some recent tests we conducted. I believe this
is purely due to a lack of attention, perhaps because the voice recognition
software and a large screen allow the user to adopt a more relaxed, distant
viewing position.
 
We also find that people are very selective in what they read, and often
miss very clear instructions stating that new windows will open or the new
page contains a different document format. I really don't know how you
address this other than by not opening new windows and not using alternative
document formats.
 
With regard to the document format, all the assistive technologies mentioned
above behave differently when reading PDFs, Word documents etc compared with
HTML pages. Very often the users did not notice the change of format and
were hence confused because the pages did not respond as expected. By all
means provide these formats for downloading and distribution but wherever
possible it is best to keep to HTML.
 
Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk
 

  _  

From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 19 February 2007 12:50
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Site check andrewingram.net


Lisa,
For a blind user, it is very annoying for a new window to open, breaking the
back button. If you want further evidence, there is plenty out there, and
pretty much all of it says don't use new windows
 
Mike


  _  

From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of lisa fox
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site check andrewingram.net


Tim,
Agreed.  However, from a user-friendly perspective, it is very annoying to
close a window and realise that you have lost where you were.  This is where
you make the decision on the purpose of the website, whether it is purely to
display that you can comply with strict or whether it is for the user. 
 
Lisa
 


 
On 2/18/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Lisa,

You can't open new windows and still have  a Strict DOCTYPE as Andrew
has!

Personally I think pdf are annoying and would I prefer to see the 
content in a webpage, maybe an option to download the pdf.

Tim

On 18/02/2007, at 2:04 PM, lisa fox wrote:

 Hi Andrew
 You are better to open the pdf and Word document in a new window.
 Most viewers would click on the link,the pdf/Word opens in the same
 browser window. They would finish reading and out of habit close the
 window forgetting that it is the same window. If the documentsopen 
 in a new window the viewer can close the window and remain on your
 site.
 
 Lisa
 

 
 On 2/18/07, Andrew Ingram [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote: Hey all,

 It's been a long week, but i've got my basic site template integrated
 with Expression Engine (from scratch, in my wisdom I decided it would
 be 
 a good idea to delete all the default templates and build everything
 from nothing :/)

 So I invite you all to check for accessibility, semantics and all that
 jazz.I welcome any suggestions provided that the suggestion isn't to
 switch to a liquid or elastic layout :)

 Basically, anything you can think of (especially things that are an
 easy 
 fix) would be most welcome.

 http://www.andrewingram.net/

 Thanks,
 Andrew Ingram


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Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: [WSG] Usability Questions for Quicktime

2007-02-05 Thread Steve Green
It may just be that our customers are not very good designers but many of
the Flash-based multimedia projects we have tested have had problems with
resource utilisation. Often the video will use 2 or 3 times as much CPU and
memory when it is embedded in Flash compared with playing it in a media
player. I have seen this kill reasonable spec machines like a 2GHz P4 when
the original video would play ok on a machine half that speed.

I just finished such a project today. One video had been compressed to three
different levels to allow it to be streamed at different rates. All three
videos used the same CPU and memory even though the file sizes varied by a
factor of 4 to 1. It means that people with different connection speeds can
make an appropriate choice but people with low-specification hardware (1GHz
PIII and below in this case) cannot.

We are not designers, just testers, so I don't know if there is a simple
solution to this. However, we work for a lot of clever people and they often
revert to a non-Flash solution.

You also need to be careful how you embed your Flash content because some
techniques (I believe Satay is one) are not accessible to screen readers. At
this very moment I am testing a site where this happens. Unfortunately a
very loud Flash-based audio track starts when the page loads and the button
for silencing it is not accessible because JAWS does not even recognise that
the page contains a Flash movie.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk



-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jan Brasna
Sent: 05 February 2007 23:47
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Usability Questions for Quicktime

 1. What is the best way to hide the movie from browsers that don't 
 support quicktime (or from users who don't want to download quicktime)?

To use an UFO/SWFObject alternative for QT, or Satay-like QT alternative w/
fallbacks.

 2. Is there a different file format which is more universal?

Flash - FLV. Great compression effectiveness, 97% reach (compared to ca. 
66% of QT), pretty much platform independent (sans non-x86 or x64 unix).

--
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net




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RE: [WSG] Title attributes

2007-01-25 Thread Steve Green
The use of hidden headings for navigation is of benefit to anyone whose user
agent does not support CSS, not just screen reader users. We are seeing an
increasing number of sites built that way and there isn't a downside that I
can think of so perhaps it should become standard practice.

Screen readers do not read 'title' attributes by default. You can configure
some to read 'title' attributes instead of the on-page text but no one is
going to have that as a permanent setting. You can also read the 'title'
attribute for a specific element but that presupposes the user knows which
elements have 'title' attributes.

Tooltips of any kind can be a nuisance for screen magnifier users because
even a small one can obscure a large proportion of the screen at modest
magnification levels. It is even worse when the tooltip is caused by the
'title' attribute for a structural element such as a paragraph or a div
because the user does not know where to move the mouse to get rid of it. It
may not even be possible if the element fills the entire screen. For this
reason I would not recommend using a 'title' attribute for a list.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk





From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Antonios Sarhanis
Sent: 24 January 2007 23:00
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attributes


I give headings to my navigation, as well as other areas on the page, but
the headings are hidden (position: absolute; left: -100em) so that they can
be read by a screen reader.

From what I've read, title attributes should only be sparingly and in
special cases where more information might be helpful rather than annoying. 

Having the title say exactly what a piece of text says is completely
useless, 
and having the title say something slightly different to what a piece of
text says only makes things annoying for users with a screen reader that
might have to read both instances of the very similar text. 



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[WSG] JAWS Screen Reader Demo

2007-01-25 Thread Steve Green
We are doing another free JAWS screen reader demo (our 7th!) on the
afternoon of Monday 19 February 2007. A couple of the places are already
booked but there are still six left. We limit the demo to 8 people so book
early.

The demo starts at 1:30pm and a free light buffet is available from 12:30
for those who want to come early. We are scheduled to finish at 5:30pm but
you are welcome to stay afterwards to get some hands-on experience or look
at some more websites.

If anyone would like to attend this demo or a future one please fill in the
form at http://www.accessibility.co.uk/free_jaws_demo.htm.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk



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RE: Does a Navigation Block *really* need to be identified as such? (was RE: [WSG] Title attributes)

2007-01-25 Thread Steve Green
John,

I would agree that there is little or no value in providing a heading for a
single list. However, we often work on sites that have thousands of pages,
that have at least two levels of navigation menus and sometimes three. There
are often other lists at the top of the page, such as to the Sitemap, A-Z
List, Accessibility Options etc.

These lists are usually styled visually so it is obvious what each list is,
but it can be difficult to differentiate between all these lists when they
are linearised in a non-CSS user agent such as Lynx, Webbie or some mobile
devices. Rather than search for a specific link (assuming you know what you
are looking for), it is easier to scan the page for headings, which most of
these user agents style differently from the list items.

I have to say that my opinion is based mostly on my experience of testing
with mobile devices and Lynx rather than testing with other users, although
some screen reader users have commented positively on the provision of these
headings. When a screen reader user is navigating within a page, they
benefit from having landmarks like this. I have had no adverse comments on
the hidden headings, but they would not have been visible to most of the
users we have tested with.

I really don't understand your objection and certainly don't see it as
'segregation'. We do all kinds of things to benefit specific user groups,
and this is just another.

Steve

-

Steve,

Is this based on your user-testing feedback (no downside)?  My only concern
is that we're hiding the heading via CSS for the majority of mainstream
users, yet leaving it in for the others - I find this hard to accept.
This segregation feels like a downside to me...

Who here really has a problem understanding the following:

SUPER-DUPER WEB SITE
 * Home
 * About this Site
 * Frequently Asked Questions
 * Contact Us
 * Site Map

...? I suggest that even the newest beginner, sighted or otherwise, will
quickly and easily grasp both the concept and the function of that list - it
is, after all, the foundation of the web itself - click on those link-words
and that's where you go.  Screen readers in particular will announce each as
a link, whereas un-styled sites/user-agents will also indicate that they are
links (blue underline, etc.).  Do we really need to hit them over the head
harder than that?

As I was thinking about this, it occurred to me that one person who might
also have some insight into this would be Jonathan Chetwynd of Peepo
(http://www.peepo.com/), who has done some extensive and valuable work with
Downs Syndrome users, and has a very clear grasp of users with severely
cognitive impairments.  Yet a check of his site (which is essentially a list
of navigation links) shows that he has not bothered announcing that his list
of navigation links is a list of navigation links. (Even just typing that
out makes it seem kind of redundant).

To be sure, a consistent placement and treatment of site navigation on each
site is important, perhaps even critical.  As Roger's OzWai presentation[1]
alluded to however, even here the location of the primary navigation block
was less critical than the consistency - that said it also left me with the
feeling that all things being equal, newer, less experienced users showed a
slight preference for site navigation at the top of the document. (And
Roger's testing panel was very small).  With this in mind, and convention
being what it is, it would seem (to me) that for the majority of users, the
initial list of links at the top of any page are used for navigation - we
don't need to keep telling them that (after all, if we include it on the
first page, it will be on *every* page, and I'm sure your non-sighted
userbase have comments about overt verbosity...)

I think at this time we are still very much in the realm of *opinion*, and I
respect that many in the field of web accessibility and web standards are
well meaning, well versed in the issues, and want to do everything they
can to improve and maximize the user-experience for all; but I also honestly
think we need imperial data and proof that this *is* the best practice
before we start floating it as such - I for one remain skeptical.

JF

[1] If you missed the original link:
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/




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RE: [WSG] IE7/CSS issues on a site

2007-01-22 Thread Steve Green
It is not displaying correctly in IE7. The tabs are too low so only half the
text is visible. I have sent you a screenshot.
 
Steve

  _  

From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of GALLAGHER Kevin S
Sent: 22 January 2007 18:59
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] IE7/CSS issues on a site


I have a site which seems to work fine in Firefox and IE6 but heard (I don't
have IE7) that the navigation is not displaying correctly. Can someone with
IE7 confirm this or not?
 
http://www.snagedu.com/
 
Thanks,
Kevin S Gallagher

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RE: [WSG] Free Screen Readers (was: Logo and H1's)

2007-01-13 Thread Steve Green
I am currently doing a review of all the screen readers that are available.
This will take a few months because there are more than you may imagine.
Here are some initial observations:

JAWS - Eye wateringly expensive but it's the best there is despite having
plenty of shortcomings. Has at least 50% market share.

WindowEyes - Expensive but pretty good. Better than JAWS for some
applications but not others. Not much different for web browsing.

HAL and SuperNova - Similar to WindowEyes.

Those three are serious professional products that work to varying degrees
with Windows and most applications.

Note that you can not use the trial versions for testing. Read the license
terms. The trial version is to help you make a purchasing decision. It is
not a convenient loophole for people who cannot or do not want to buy it.

IBM Home Page Reader - Little used and no longer supported. I don't know
much about it.

Virgo - I only recently found out about this screen reader and have not used
it yet.

Thunder - I am not very familiar with this but one of our blind trainers has
evaluated it and is not very impressed. It has potential but the creators
need funding to improve it. The creators say it is not intended for reading
web pages directly. You are supposed to use it in conjunction with Webbie,
which creates a linearised version of the page but also removes semantic
structure.

VoiceOver - Comes with Mac OS X 10.4 and above. All OS X applications have
some level of support. I am pretty unimpressed because for instance it does
not announce the presence of any semantic structure such as headings and
lists, and all keyboard controls require 3 keys, which gets tiring. It has a
tiny but strong following but these appear to be typical Apple fanboys who
would never admit it was less than perfect even if it crashed every two
minutes. Also they have few alternatives.

Narrator - Built into Windows 2000 and XP and works to some extent with all
applications. Only really any use for getting you out of trouble if your
primary screen reader fails. On web pages it only reads the links.

Fire Vox - Free extension for Firefox. I have tested this extensively and
corresponded with its creator, who has been very helpful. However, it is
really just a pet project and it is a long way short of being usable as a
primary screen reader. The user experience is nothing like JAWS. If you're
looking for a free screen reader it's better than nothing but don't imagine
you're getting the equivalent of one of the big 3.

Fangs - Don't bother. It claims to produce a text version of what JAWS would
read but there are some significant shortcomings. Firstly the behaviour of
JAWS varies from version to version; which version is it emulating? The
biggest issue is that it doesn't remotely give you any idea of the user
experience. Assessing the comprehensibility of a page involves much more
than simply knowing what words will be spoken. It would help if the text was
laid out in an approximation of the mental model the user will build but
frankly it's not worth the trouble.

The problem with most of the cheap or free screen readers is that they don't
convey semantic structure and the user experience is nothing like the big 3
professional products.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk

 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Matthew Smith
Sent: 12 January 2007 22:36
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Free Screen Readers (was: Logo and H1's)

Quoth Rob O'Rourke at 01/13/07 08:25...

 I've not managed to get a screen-reader working very well for testing 
 so far, does anyone know of one (preferably free) that provides a 
 fairly typical screen reader experience?
 
 JAWS is a bit out of my price range.

You could try the Fangs[1] extension for Firefox.  Fangs renders the page as
text, but the text that would (probably) be spoken by Jaws.  I have never
managed to get it working myself, but it may be worth a look.

Cheers

M

References

1 - http://www.standards-schmandards.com/projects/fangs

--
Matthew Smith
IT Consultancy  Web Application Development
Business: http://www.kbc.net.au/
Personal: http://www.smiffysplace.com/
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/smiffy


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RE: [WSG] Logo and H1's

2007-01-13 Thread Steve Green
 
Patrick wrote

In general terms, what I'm trying to convey here is: it's easy to pick up a
screenreader as a sighted user, do some testing, and come to some
conclusions, all with the right intentions of course, like oh, this must be
annoying for those users...but, not being a blind user who uses that
technology day in, day out, it's also possible to draw some erroneous
conclusions, or to seek absolute, black and white maxims (this should never
be done) where there are really just opinions, personal preferences, and
lots of shades of gray.


Which leads perfectly into a plug for our free JAWS screen reader demos. One
of our blind testers talks about how blind people visualise web pages and
navigate through them. We then have some practical examples where he visits
sites he has not seen before so you see his approach to browsing, the
problems he encounters and how he overcomes them (if he can!). The next one
on Monday is fully booked (maybe I can squeeze in one more) but there will
be another in February. You can register at
www.accessibility.co.uk/free_jaws_demo.htm

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk



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RE: [WSG] Logo and H1's

2007-01-13 Thread Steve Green

I bought your book - isn't that enough? And if you make the 300-mile round
trip to the demo I'll even buy lunch.

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 13 January 2007 19:53
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Logo and H1's

Steve Green wrote:

 Which leads perfectly into a plug for our free JAWS screen reader demos.

Pssst...where's my agreed commission? ;)

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re-
+ dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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RE: [WSG] Re: usage of fieldset

2007-01-12 Thread Steve Green
I have seen several sites that have done this, presumably for the visual
effect of having a border around each subsection of content; some browsers
will give that border round corners. Of course the same effect can be
achieved with the correct use of CSS but maybe they just thought this way is
easier.

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barney Carroll
Sent: 12 January 2007 14:59
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: usage of fieldset

Mihael Zadravec wrote:
 Hi!
 
 What would be your reaction, if you'd see someone using fieldset for 
 something else than containing forms?
 
 eg. something like...
 
 fieldset
 legendSome tite here/legend
 div class=notification
 pThis is some content./p
 /div
 /fieldset
 
 cya!
 Mihael

It's incorrect and pointless. Why would anyone want to do such a thing?

Regards,
Barney


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RE: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-10 Thread Steve Green
We do a lot of user testing with screen reader users, and this is the basis
for most of my contributions to this list.
 
Flash support has increased over the last few years so the user experience
depends both on the make of screen reader and the version. The user
experience can be good if the designer has taken the appropriate steps to
label buttons and correct the tab sequence. However, this does not happen by
default, and most developers do not take the necessary measures so links are
often read as button one, button two etc. Often some content is not
read, some links are not on the tab sequence and some events are not exposed
to the screen reader.
 
Also Flash movies are made in layers. It is common for them to be designed
such that only the top layer is clickable at certain times (e.g. modal
dialogs), but screen readers can often programmatically access content in
layers that should not be accessible. This can be extremely confusing.
 
The bottom line is that Flash can be reasonably accessible but usually isn't
and it can never approach the accessibility of HTML.
 
Screen readers are available at most price points from free up to nearly
$2000. I am currently evaluating several to determine how they differ, and
have nearly finished evaluating Fire Vox, which is a free extension for
Firefox. Surprisingly, the user experience is very different from JAWS and
in my opinion it needs a lot of work to be considered a viable option. In
fact it makes you appreciate how good JAWS is. I will be publishing the
results on our website but that won't be for a couple of months yet.
 
Steve
 
 

  _  

From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mihael Zadravec
Sent: 10 January 2007 07:52
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(


Hello Steve!

Do you have any information about screen reader users expirience with flash
elements like navigation or others? Is the flash content ok with them or is
it not?

I also think that 1,000 $ is too much for a software like screen reader...
Becasue of its nature, this software should be more reachable to its
audience.. 

Mihael



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RE: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-10 Thread Steve Green
We have tested many Flex-based applications, mostly for e-learning, and the
same issues apply. If anything Flex-based applications are worse because
they tend to be more interactive. Designers often create their own form
controls so they can style them however they want, and these are almost
never accessible.

Furthermore, Flex-based applications are often accesible to such an extent
that the screen reader user thinks they are working correctly even though
some static and/or dynamic content is not accessible or is not presented
correctly. This can cause frustration and waste time, and it would sometimes
be preferable if the application presented a barrier from the outset rather
than sucker the user into thinking it works when it actually doesn't.

I think we're getting way off topic here so anyone who wants to discuss this
further should contact me off-list.

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder
Sent: 10 January 2007 15:54
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

Steve Green wrote:
 We do a lot of user testing with screen reader users,...

 Also Flash movies are made in layers.

Have you tested any (non-timelined) Flex-based sites or apps?

--
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com

  dream.  code.




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RE: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-10 Thread Steve Green
Audio opens up a new can of worms. It certainly should not start
automatically because that causes problems for several user groups, not just
those with disabilities. It could benefit some users but you shouldn't
implement it in a way that is to the detriment of others.

Some blind people use Braille displays rather than screen readers but this
is not common. I don't see the benefit of adding audio unless the Flash
content is 100% accessible, in which case it ought not to be necessary.
Navigating with a screen reader or Braille device is a lot slower than using
a graphical browser, so users don't want to spend time doing anything that
isn't really necessary.

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke
Sent: 10 January 2007 17:27
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

Hassan Schroeder wrote:
 Steve Green wrote:
   
 We do a lot of user testing with screen reader users,...
 

   
 Also Flash movies are made in layers.
 

 Have you tested any (non-timelined) Flex-based sites or apps?

   

Just my two pence but I think what you really need to do is add an audio
layer to that flash site. As an example one of the sites we host (its not at
all accessible code-wise) has audio to say hello and indicate what you can
do on a page. I think similar use of audio on that site to read it from the
flash would be a nice touch. Then it'd be accessible to blind users who
don't have a screenreader too (...they must exist)

Rob O


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RE: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

2007-01-09 Thread Steve Green
The Flash movie is accessible with JAWS 7.0 although it does not pronounce
the first letter of the words 'Center', 'Slabovidnih' and 'Starejsih'. I
guess these must be images.

When the page loads JAWS says page has no links but this is because it is
only looking at the HTML content. When you navigate through the Flash
content it reads both links and they both work.

On the next page none of the graphics in the menu has an 'alt' attribute.
JAWS therefore reads the folder name and the filename without the extension.
The filenames are very similar to the text in the graphics so this may be
comprehensible. I can't tell because my Slovenian is a bit rusty and JAWS is
reading it in American. JAWS does not have a Slovenian phoneme set so it
wouldn't pronounce the words correctly even if the 'language' attribute was
specified, which it isn't. Does anyone know what screen reader Slovenians
use?

The frames and tables have no impact on screen reader users. In fact the use
of frames can help the user understand the structure of the page,
particularly if there is little or no semantic structure, as is the case
with this site.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk

 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paul Novitski
Sent: 09 January 2007 19:06
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] my world, my country.. :(

At 1/9/2007 10:15 AM, Mihael Zadravec wrote:
This is realy sad... but this is the website of a Blind peopele 
comunnity Škofja Loka from Slovenija (where I live, but in 
Ljubljana...)

Center slepih in slabovidnih Škofja Loka 
http://www.css-sl.si/http://www.css-sl.si/

any comments on the code, usabillity and accessability issues?


I don't have a screen-reader and can't determine whether the Flash
application is in any way accessible, but on the surface the home page is
wholly INaccessible as it doesn't contain any text or even any link to text.
The sub-pages I looked at are frame-based and table-based which also present
accessibility issues.

It surprises me that anyone would design a website for a blind community
that can't be easily read by blind people.  Now *that* is sad.

Regards,
Paul 



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RE: [WSG] Does this hurt accessibility

2007-01-04 Thread Steve Green
I expect this will degrade the experience for anyone using a screen
magnifier. We find that even relatively small tooltips hide a large
proportion of the viewport when using magnification levels above x3, and
these popups are a lot bigger.

A magnifier user will typically move around the page by dragging the mouse
to one edge of the screen (they only use the scrollbars when they reach the
edge of the page), so they will often hover over links unintentionally,
particularly graphical links since they are typically bigger than text
links.

I think it would be quite unpleasant to have these things pop up all the
time, especially as they may entirely fill the viewport.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of John S. Britsios
Sent: 05 January 2007 04:14
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Does this hurt accessibility

Dear members,

We are thinking of implementing this service
http://www.snap.com/about/spa1A.php on our web site, and our question is, if
you think that it can hurt our site accessibility in someway?

We sure will implement the noscript tag if that solves the problem.

Thanks a lot for your kind suppport.

Best wishes,

John

--
John S. Britsios
Web Architect  Business Consultant

Webnauts Net  SEO Workers (Main Office) Koblenzer Str. 37A
D-33613 Bielefeld

Webnauts Net  SEO Workers (U.S. Office)
5 Ivanhoe Drive
Urbana IL 61802

http://www.webnauts.net
http://www.seoworkers.com




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RE: [WSG] New UK rules

2007-01-03 Thread Steve Green
The full story is here - http://out-law.com/page-7594

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk

 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Frances Berriman
Sent: 03 January 2007 23:42
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] New UK rules

On 03/01/07, Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 My service provider sent the following out in the latest newsletter. I 
 was not aware of this, so in case any of you weren't aware either, I 
 include it here:

 REGULATION ISSUE
  From today, companies in the UK must include certain information on 
 their Web sites and in their e-mail footers or they will breach the 
 Companies Act and risk a fine. The minimum information needed on any 
 business site includes the name, geographic address and e-mail address 
 of the business and the legal name of the organisation with which the 
 customer is contracting. Also, if the business is a company, the 
 registered office address and the registration number. If the business 
 is a member of a trade or professional association, membership 
 details, including any registration number, should be provided. If the 
 business has a VAT number, it should be stated - even if the Web site 
 is not being used for e-commerce transactions. Prices on the site must 
 be clear and unambiguous and state whether they include tax and delivery
costs.

 Bob

 www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


Interesting.  Did they say where this regulation comes from?  A document or
such?

--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com


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RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Steve Green
I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump
immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is when it
jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you press the Tab
key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is turned off.
Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke
Sent: 03 November 2006 16:08
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

Hello there,

I've been putting my CV together but I don't have a mac for testing, a
friend of mine who does said that when the page loads up in safari it
immediately jumps to where it says 'Web designer and developer'. I'm stumped
as to what might be causing it.

The page in question is at http://robert.o-rourke.org

Anyone run into a similar problem before?

I'm planning to make the cut-out thing smaller, I was developing the
concept and haven't re-done any graphics yet.


Cheers,
   Rob O



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RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Steve Green
Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but I
never tried it).

If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page continuously
reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail Bartender and Web
Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till the 'beachball of
death' appears and I have to force quit the browser.

We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke
Sent: 03 November 2006 17:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

Steve Green wrote:
 I'm running Safari 2.0 and it does jump. However, it does not jump 
 immediately. When you hover over a link the page reloads and this is 
 when it jumps (not always to the same place). The same happens if you 
 press the Tab key after the page loads. It does this even if JavaScript is
turned off.
 Sorry, I have no idea why it's doing it.

   

Thanks for confirming that Steve,

I've taken all the javascript out because its kinda pointless in this
instance. Can you check if the same happens on this page please?:

http://robert.o-rourke.org/undex.php

I've removed the anchor link which might have been the reason for it... 
guess it's a process of elimination from here on.


Cheers,
Rob O


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RE: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

2006-11-03 Thread Steve Green
It seems better but when I hover over a link it still reloads, jumps down to
the Cocktail Bartender subheading then up to the Web Designer subheading. At
least it doesn't bounce up and down continuously and crash the browser.

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rob O'Rourke
Sent: 03 November 2006 19:13
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] page loads in safari and then jumps to the middle

Steve Green wrote:
 Wow, it's even worse now (or maybe it would have done this before but 
 I never tried it).

 If I hover the mouse over a link and leave it there, the page 
 continuously reloads and it jumps up and down between the Cocktail 
 Bartender and Web Designer subheadings. It gets slower and slower till 
 the 'beachball of death' appears and I have to force quit the browser.

 We've seen some weird stuff in our time but nothing quite like this.

 Steve


   

:$

poop... I don't think on online cv that breaks safari is going to get me
very far...
I've stripped out the CSS now... any joy?

It seems to work ok in swift except it loads up with the high contrast large
print css for some reason.

Rob O



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RE: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

2006-11-02 Thread Steve Green
A 'go to text version' link certainly won't hurt, but our experience of user
testing is that they are rarely used. In fact we did a test project last
week where the site had a text version, an audio version and a built-in
magnifier, but only one of the three users (who was a screen reader user)
even noticed any of them. However, despite having some difficulties with the
site he never tried the text-only version.

Maybe this is because in the past text-only versions were maintained (or
not) separately and often had outdated or incomplete content. Obviously it
is possible to generate both versions from the same content but few sites do
this.

We also came across a site that had no fewer that six 'skip to' links such
as 'skip to main navigation', 'skip to sub navigation', 'skip to main
content' etc. The whole thing was so verbose that they really needed a 'skip
past all these skip links' link. The point being that screen reader users
benefit from pages being as terse as possible (i.e. less to remember), and
that sometimes they are hindered by features that have been added to help
them.

With regard to 'title' attributes, by default these are not read by most
screen readers. Some have an option that allows the user to read them but
that's little use because the user has no way of knowing if an element has a
'title' attribute except by trial and error, and it's too much hard work to
keep checking.

My email program mangled my previous emails today, so in case anyone missed
it, we're running a free JAWS demo on 27 November. Full details and booking
form at www.accessibility.co.uk/free_jaws_demo.htm.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk



-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: 02 November 2006 23:28
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Articles/reasearch/experience of screen readers

I have been following this with great interest.
What I have been considering (I know its been covered before) is putting a
link at the top of the page, go to text version Go to menu

I would think that screen reader users would find that a good addition to be
able to read an article in text only, and a shortcut to scan articles which
also have brief title tags in addition to descriptive titles.

In my design content comes first already...

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign Solutions



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RE: [WSG] Browser stats

2006-08-01 Thread Steve Green



That argument may seem reasonable but it is flawed. If 
users with particular user agents can't use your site or find it difficult to 
use then they are less likely to return. Your stats will then show a low number 
for these users. You might conclude that the low number means you don't need to 
botherfixing the site to caterfor these users but in factthe 
exact opposite is true.

Steve



From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seb 
FrostSent: 01 August 2006 14:20To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Browser 
stats

The only way to get accurate statistics is to gather your own, on each 
individual site. Then you're guaranteed a relevant sample. If you 
look at statistics of any other site, no matter what they might claim, you're 
not getting the information you need! 

Make the site, put it up, check your stats, make any changes you deem 
necessary. If it's a design question then go for 800x600 for now, and 
change later if/when you decide you have enough 1024x768+ users.

- seb
On 01/08/06, Paul 
Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 

  
  
  Hi all, 
  
  Just wondered if anyone has a good resource for 
  Browser stats. Currently I've got a few but most get their stats from visitors 
  to the site which can bea bit biased.
  
  Currently I've got
  http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm
  http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/July/browser.php 
  
  
  Anyone got better?!
  
  Cheers**The 
  discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for 
  some hints on posting to the list  getting 
  help** 
**The 
discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See 
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the list  getting 
help**

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RE: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 and 'Until user agents...'

2006-07-24 Thread Steve Green
I disagree with Patrick's assessment on several points:

10.2 - Some user agents such as Lynx linearise the page but do not support
label elements so it is still important to correctly position the labels.

1.5 - Some users are not able to use image maps for a variety of reasons so
I would always provide redundant text links. One reason is that it is often
difficult to see which area of the map has focus when using keyboard
navigation.

In our experience image maps are no obstacle for screen reader users but
they are more of a problem for users of screen magnifiers because they often
require both vertical and horizontal scrolling. Also the label for each area
is often provided by means of a tooltip because the areas are too small for
a text label, and the tooltip is often not fully visible without scrolling.
For these users a combobox is far more accessible.

10.3 - One of my testers still uses ZoomText 7, in which the Doc Reader
function does do a screen scrape and therefore reads across columns. Version
9 does not do this but there will be plenty of people still using earlier
versions.

10.4 - Totally agree. Default placeholding text does more harm than good.

All this raises an interesting issue. Does until user agents... mean
until some user agents... or until most user agents... or until all
user agents...? And how would we know when any of these criteria are met,
because I am not aware of any statistics for the usage of the various makes
and versions of user agent or AT?

With the exception of 10.3 all of these checkpoints are easily implemented
at little or no cost and they have little or no impact on the design so I
generally don't ignore any of them except 10.3.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk

 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 24 July 2006 09:13
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 and 'Until user agents...'

Lindsay Evans wrote:

 I'm in the process of defining accessibility guidelines for a new 
 site, and am thinking it would be helpful to eliminate certain WCAG 
 checkpoints that are no longer relevant and could possibly lead to 
 usability problems if followed to the letter

Here are my thoughts on which WCAG 1.0 checkpoints can be knowingly ignored:

10.2 Until user agents support explicit associations between labels and form
controls, for all form controls with implicitly associated labels, ensure
that the label is properly positioned.

(though it's still best practice from a usability point of view)

10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent
links distinctly, include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by
spaces) between adjacent links.

(as long as there is at least a single space, and the styling of your page
is clear enough - e.g. maybe a bit of extra horizontal padding for inline
links)

1.5 Until user agents render text equivalents for client-side image map
links, provide redundant text links for each active region of a client-side
image map.

(as far as I know, all modern user agents should cope fine with properly
marked up client-side image map...as long as you provide ALTs for each AREA)

10.3 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render
side-by-side text correctly, provide a linear text alternative (on the
current page or some other) for all tables that lay out text in parallel,
word-wrapped columns.

(since most AT looks to the document source, rather than simply visually
scraping the screen, this shouldn't cause any more issues)

10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default,
place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas.

(apart from old braillers, this is not an issue anymore; in fact, having
place-holding content can be a usability issue, as users need to go the
extra step of first deleting the default content)

Unfortunately I don't have an exact list showing what current UAs/ATs
support...this is mainly based on empirical evidence, discussions with users
of specific ATs, and a bit of gut instinct.

Patrick
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re-
+ dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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The discussion

RE: [WSG] email stripping out the css from tables?

2006-07-02 Thread Steve Green



We do loads of email testing on a wide variety of email 
clients and web-based email services and I endorse everything in the article 
that Mathew recommended - it's spot on. In particular the web-based services do 
some horrible things; in one email we tested, one of them (Hotmail or Yahoo, I 
can't remember) rewrote the code for a form so it used GET instead of POST, with 
the result that the form no longer worked.

Ordinarily I would offer to test the email for you and 
help fix it (free of charge) but I am up to my backside in alligators this week 
- hence I'm working at 1am on Sunday night! I would be happy to do this in the 
future if anyone has a similar problem.

Steve GreenDirectorTest 
Partners Ltd / First Accessibilitywww.testpartners.co.ukwww.accessibility.co.uk



From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bojana 
LalicSent: 03 July 2006 00:57To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] email stripping out the 
css from tables?


No, at the moment my 
css is embedded in the html, in the head part. I am trying to force the 
table to display the text with the particular styling. 


Is the following code 
valid? It probably isnt, as it doesnt work, but how do I use inline styles to 
force the whole table to a certain font style etc. 


table 
width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" style="font: 100%/1.5 Verdana, 
Lucida, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"





From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of Nick LazarSent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:18 
AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] email stripping out the 
css from tables?

Do you have an absolute path to the style sheet in the 
header? i.elink rel="stylesheet" href=""http://your-domain.com/css/stylesheet.css">http://your-domain.com/css/stylesheet.css" 
type="text/css" media="screen" /



I think you'll find it will work if you do this. It's 
also a good idea to include the absolute URL for any images as 
well



Regards,



Nick.




On 3 Jul 2006, at 09:39, Bojana Lalic 
wrote:


Hi 
all

I am building 
a newsletter for the email.

I used css 
initially but then the client complained that html wasnt displaying the content 
as it should be. Instead of displaying two columns it only displays one and also 
strips out all the css.

I have now 
started modifying the template and plan to use a table (the client doesnt care) 
and a lot of inline styles. So far, I have included a table, however, when the 
newsletter is sent in an email the table doesnt seem to preserve the styling 
any more. It looks perfect in the browser but not in the email. Is email 
stripping out the css out of tables a known problem?

Any tips 
regarding the use of css and tables in emails would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Bojana 
Lalic





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RE: [WSG] IE7 padding, maybe?

2006-06-27 Thread Steve Green
Yes, I've been getting them all evening too.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joe
Sent: 28 June 2006 00:07
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] IE7 padding, maybe?

It seems as though many of the posts from yesterday are being duplicated
today.  Is anyone else receiving duplicates - or is it just me?

Nathan - 

Thanks for the suggestion.  I've also thought about doing it this way, but I
was trying to get around doing this without editing the logo.  The logo is
used on other documents for the company and I didn't want to 'accidentally'
mix up the web use one with the actual one.  O yah, and I'm not a grate
speler. :)

Jough

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:30 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] IE7 padding, maybe?

Hi Jough,

What you are trying to achieve is quite tricky. I see some issues with
implementing it as you have, because if you start adjusting font size (like
I do with my poor eye-sight) then your logo/brand goes out of whack. I would

recommend a strategy such as this:

Include a h1 and use an image replacement technique to insert your logo to

the top right. then use an image editing program to clip the bottom part of
your logo where the blue bands go across (which also includes the bottom
part of the r and e in Pre. Then create the navigation bar and make it

the width of the header. Crop the header so that the top part of your logo
(above the blue bands). In you navigational menu, make it with a blue
background and position the cropped bottom part of the logo as a background
(obviously make it line up nicely). Now if the test size grows, so will the
blue band and your logo will stay in proportion!! I hope this makes sense? 
For example

--
#header   TOP PART OF LOGO
--
#navigationBackground bottom cropped part of logo
--

Does anyone else see a better solution?

Cheers

Nathan

P.S. Don't take this offensively, I just wanted to let you know that
navIgation was spelt wrong in your markup (and resulting CSS)

- Original Message -
From: Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 5:40 AM
Subject: [WSG] IE7 padding, maybe?


 Maybe I'm making this harder than it has to be...

 The webpage in question is located at www.preleads.com/index-dev2.php

 On every computer here in the office (on IE6 and FF1.5) the page displays
 fine.  But, on one particular computer with IE7 installed the PreLeads 
 logo
 in the top right has about one third of the bottom cut off.  I understand
 why this is happening (the padding on #header) but do not know if this is
 just an IE7 problem if it is even a problem at all.  Does anyone else see
 the cut-off logo?  Does anyone know what is wrong?

 Thanks in advance!

 Jough



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RE: [WSG] Screenreaders and AJAX and bears...oh my...

2006-06-12 Thread Steve Green



Having just returned from a user-testing session with 
someone who has severe colour perception impairment (caused by retinitis 
pigmentosa) I am appalled by this "it's not the designer's problem" attitude. 
This person uses the ZoomText magnifier, which has a wide range of colour 
substitution features but on the site we were testing some of the colour 
combinations were unreadable regardless of which filter was used. It is 
essential that sites have sufficient colour and brightness contrast to begin 
with.

The difficulty with AJAX and screen readers is how to 
notify the user when the content has changed, how to tell them which content is 
now different and how it is different. This is not covered by any standards so 
it is no surprise that different screen readers behave differently as shown by a 
couple of recent research articles. I do not believe that this is something the 
screen reader vendors can resolve by themselves, and it will require input from 
all sides of the industry to define the required behaviour.

However, it is not simply a technical problem because 
any successful solution will be dependent on the user creating a mental model of 
the page, modifying it each time the page is updated and keeping track of 
successive updates. This is no mean feat given that even static websites can be 
difficult to visualise, and I have no confidence that there will ever be a 
viable solution that involves asynchronous or 'push' 
technologies.

Steve 
GreenDirectorTest Partners Ltd / First Accessibilitywww.testpartners.co.ukwww.accessibility.co.uk


From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James 
LaugesenSent: 12 June 2006 23:57To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Screenreaders and AJAX 
and bears...oh my...
I think the only burden placed on developers is to ensure their site 
can be realisticly processed by a computer.When I consider "accessability", 
I consider it reffering to accessability by computers... I know that's not how 
the term is usually used, but that's just how I think about it. Because, in most 
cases some computer system is acting as an interface between the site/software 
and the disabled user. The 'old' tables and slicing method left the html 
virtually useless; the browsers had no idea what they're processing, they can 
only render it and hope the human viewing the screen can understand it.XHTML 
is essentially about acheiving that... semantics... and ultimately 
accessability. I think that's a reasonable responsibility to place on all 
developers (not just web).However I do think it's unreasonableto expect WEB 
developers to implement generic solutions to accessability problems, ie, why 
implement your own screen reader? Or provide facility to change font size? IMO 
even considering colour blindness is counter-productive, colour correction 
should be a feature of an 'acccessability-friendly' browser. I'm not 
much up-to-speed with screen readers; anyone care to educate us? What's hot, 
what's not, etc?Any WSG members use screen readers? (due to dissability I 
mean, not just for testing).J
On 13/06/06, Gene 
Falck [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
Hi 
  Mike,You wrote:However, what I've noticed that you do not 
  see are articles pushingthe screen reader manufacturers to make more 
  capable and intellegentreaders for the browsers.they seem to be 
  able to do this for desktop applications (at least to a reasonable 
  level).It seems thatmany of the efforts we are making (as 
  well as the WSG) to enableaccessibility are in fact disabling (and in 
  many cases abandoning) the rich features on the net - this goes back 
  to the whole "magazinearticle" site versus the "application" site - 
  two different purposes,two different needs - both based on the same 
  underlying technologies, and both need to be accessible.IMO 
  this is because physical access rules came after there werewheelchairs 
  that had, in turn, been developed long after most ofthe physical 
  structures we take for granted were standardized. In spite of that 
  timeline, there were some things that had to bechanged such as the 
  provision of ramps.In web development, we are, then, figuratively, 
  trying to builddoorways and invent the wheelchair at much the same time. 
  Not only is there a major emphasis on web sites doing a lot of thework 
  on this but also our efforts may be obsolete as soon as thenext generation 
  of assisting software is introduced.That may be a discouraging 
  prospect, but I think we still have to keep up as best as we 
  can.--Regards,Gene Falck[EMAIL PROTECTED]**The 
  discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See 
  http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor 
  some hints on posting to the list  getting help 
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discussion list for 

RE: [WSG] UPDATE TO: Using PHP to hide email, script made, testing needed

2006-06-09 Thread Steve Green
The W3Schools website states that 10% of users do not have JavaScript but I
do not know the methodology behind this measurement nor the demographics of
the audience. Some of their stats are wildly different from the other
sources we use, and their figure of 25% market share for Firefox is clearly
not representative of the market as a whole. I suspect their figures are
purely or mostly from visitors to their own site.

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2006/May/javas.php gives a figure of the
order of 5% although their figures don't quite add up so there may also be
another couple of percent with old versions that cannot be relied on to
support all the features built into new sites. I believe these figures are
drawn from a much larger and more diverse audience and as such should be
more realistic.

Earlier this week I was discussing this issue with a web developer at a
London hospital and he told me that JavaScript is disabled by means of Group
Policies on all of their 1500 PCs.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk

 

-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder
Sent: 09 June 2006 16:47
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] UPDATE TO: Using PHP to hide email, script made, testing
needed

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I think the most recent stats quote a figure of only 75% or so - 1 in 
 4 are not going to be happy!

Do you have a citation for that figure?  Because I've been working with Web
technology since before JavaScript existed, and I've never seen so much as
*one* non-technical user with JS disabled.

And I realize there are IT departments that disable active content
company-wide -- but I've never been in such a company, nor seen any figures
on how widespread that practice actually is...

--
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com

  dream.  code.




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RE: [WSG] Is there a way to stop a horizontal text-based Navbar breaking ...?

2006-06-08 Thread Steve Green
Alternatively you can put a no-break-space between the words instead of a
space. A no-break-space is the six-character string nbsp; so the link would
be something link Contactnbsp;Us

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility
www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk



From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Susie Gardner-Brown
Sent: 09 June 2006 01:06
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Is there a way to stop a horizontal text-based Navbar
breaking ...?


I'm setting up a small site that will have horizontal text-based navigation
at the top. There's quite a lot of links so it's almost certain to go onto
two lines. Some of the links are two words ... Is there a way to stop a
two-word link breaking and leaving one word at the end of line 1 and the
next at the beginning of line 2?

If there isn't, the only other thing I can think of is to make them images
... But maybe someone here has another suggestion? I can't change the number
or wording of the links, and they do have to be horizontal.

:) 
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