Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
I know it seems incredible, but there are many large businesses that I know of that will only allow IE to be used. I was as shocked as you but on further investigation into one such organisation it seemed to be a matter of cost as the users didn't have permission to download any programmes/software/etc so IT would have to come round to everyone's machine individually to install it. and that would cost money pants excuse I think...but these kind of organisations won't listen to any sort of reason! L-J --- Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SunUp wrote: I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. Banned?! What for? What kind of nazis *are* these people? Is this some kind of perceived security issue? And when you say the FF site, do you mean using FF as a browser? L-J Lacey subtle as a fish developing websites today for tomorrow http://www.subtleasafish.com/ ___ Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
L-J Lacey wrote: I know it seems incredible, but there are many large businesses that I know of that will only allow IE to be used. I was as shocked as you but on further investigation into one such organisation it seemed to be a matter of cost as the users didn't have permission to download any programmes/software/etc so IT would have to come round to everyone's machine individually to install it. and that would cost money pants excuse I think...but these kind of organisations won't listen to any sort of reason! We-ell, having been an IT manager in my time, 90% of your user base in a big company is less than technically ept, to say the least, and half the rest just want to load up Kazaa so they can download music. Most large organizations I know of lock down the desktop to minimize damage. It's frustrating when you're one of the few who is capable of downloading useful stuff and maintaining your own machine, but IT managers are responsible for any illegal software found on the network, and they'll get a right bollocking if an audit finds porn on some tosser's system as well. It's the exceptions that are the expensive items in terms of support. If everyone runs the same desktop, it can be a lot simpler to maintain. The IT managers who have my respect are the ones who recognize that not all users are created equally and can make exceptions that help the business. But then, I don't respect that many IT managers :-p cheers Mark Harris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Mark, I agree with you 100%. I understand why the IT teams have to do it, but wish they'd have a little leeway at times (ie when a non pleb wants to use something a lot better than IE). The IT managers who have my respect are the ones who recognize that not all users are created equally and can make exceptions that help the business. But then, I don't respect that many IT managers :-p cheers Mark Harris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** L-J Lacey subtle as a fish developing websites today for tomorrow http://www.subtleasafish.com/ ___ All new Yahoo! Mail The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use. - PC Magazine http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
very true indeed - thankfully our IT manager let me have admin rights on my first day : lets be honest the first thing I did was download iTunes and y! messenger but AFTER that I got the important stuff. definately can't let anyone download anything they want though - that would be chaos! - Original Message From: Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, 4 August, 2006 9:34:31 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats) L-J Lacey wrote: I know it seems incredible, but there are many large businesses that I know of that will only allow IE to be used. I was as shocked as you but on further investigation into one such organisation it seemed to be a matter of cost as the users didn't have permission to download any programmes/software/etc so IT would have to come round to everyone's machine individually to install it. and that would cost money pants excuse I think...but these kind of organisations won't listen to any sort of reason! We-ell, having been an IT manager in my time, 90% of your user base in a big company is less than technically ept, to say the least, and half the rest just want to load up Kazaa so they can download music. Most large organizations I know of lock down the desktop to minimize damage. It's frustrating when you're one of the few who is capable of downloading useful stuff and maintaining your own machine, but IT managers are responsible for any illegal software found on the network, and they'll get a right bollocking if an audit finds porn on some tosser's system as well. It's the exceptions that are the expensive items in terms of support. If everyone runs the same desktop, it can be a lot simpler to maintain. The IT managers who have my respect are the ones who recognize that not all users are created equally and can make exceptions that help the business. But then, I don't respect that many IT managers :-p cheers Mark Harris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
I agree with all of this. You could probably find an old classic iMac on eBay or Craigslist for not a wicked lot of money. Cheers, Dani ~~ Dani Nordin the zen kitchen Graphic and web design with a touch of green 1 Fitchburg Street, B160 Somerville, MA 02143 401.787.5178 mobile See a full portfolio and sign up for our monthly newsletterthoughts on design, life, food and other trivialitiesat http://www.tzk-design.com Read our notes from the zen kitchenweekly(ish) articles on design, the environment, and life as a business owner - at http://zenkitchen.blogspot.com On 8/3/06 1:07 AM, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SunUp wrote: It's the Mac problem. There's no way my department's budget will extend to purchasing an old Mac just for testing purposes, and even if that happened, I'd then have a fight on my hands with our IT department about network points and security issues. If I was in that situation, I would either: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. * find a friend or collegue with Mac and ask them for help * buy a cheap iMac and test at home or * ask this list for help (send us the URL!) Cheers, Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
On 8/2/06 11:57 PM, SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd then have a fight on my hands with our IT department about network points and security issues. Security issues? From a Mac?? If they can maintain security with Windows workstations, they don't need to worry about adding a Mac -- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
On 8/3/06, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SunUp wrote: It's the Mac problem. There's no way my department's budget will extend to purchasing an old Mac just for testing purposes, If I was in that situation, I would either: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Sunny wrote:
I know how to prevent v.4 browsers from getting my styles, but
how do I stop IE5/Mac from getting them?? All I know how to do is
to give them
something different, not how to exclude them entirely.
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:54:46 +1000, Geoff Pack replied:
see: http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] url('styles.css'); /* excludes NS4, Mac IE5 */
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 'styles.css'; /* excludes NS4, IE4, Mac IE5 */
You may also want to give some styles to that browser alone.
I believe that this does it:
@import (ie5mac.css)
Cordially, David.
--
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
* refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. sunny(fed-up-with-it) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
On 8/3/06, SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. Yes, it's easy for me to talk, isn't it? Give me your bosses phone number, I'll call up and straighten things out. ;) I salute your commitment to Doing the Right Thing and, in short, I think you're doing it. -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
SunUp wrote: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. That's a head-in-the-sand attitude that is disturbingly widespread. The MS marketing machine has done an astonishingly successful job of convincing a significant proportion of the world that 'This is a PC, this is what it does. Don't think; just use it as it is.' It's understandable to get this attitude from home users who don't know better, but in a business environment it's just plain crazy. It's like opening a retail shop and then barring anyone who chooses to wear red socks from entering. Why would you willingly and knowingly ignore *any* source of potential business? I think it's an important part of our job as designers/developers to educate out clients, bosses, and site visitors about the medium. After all, whether we're freelancers or employees, aren't we hired because we know more about this stuff than the person hiring us? I *always* include, at the preproduction stage of a project, a clear explanation to the client that their site will NOT look the same to all of their visitors, and I show them samples of previous sites to illustrate the kind of (usually minor) variations they might expect - including sparsely or unstyled versions in older browsers. You need to find someone in management who cares enough about their business to allow you to reach the largest number of potential customers possible, and explain carefully and simply that their IE-only approach is hurting their business. If you can't, frankly, you should give careful thought to whether these are people that you want to work with long-term. Easy to say, I know, but you'll discover, eventually, that there's a lot of power in saying no - and you'll certainly sleep better at night. As a freelance, I'm now (thankfully) able to choose who I work with. If they get what I do, fine. If they don't, and they resist my approach as your bosses appear to be doing, I Just Walk Away. Some people just refuse to be educated, even if it's to their detriment. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. Banned?! What for? What kind of nazis *are* these people? Is this some kind of perceived security issue? And when you say the FF site, do you mean using FF as a browser? I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. It certainly is, but it's not *all* you can do. If you track back through this thread, you'll see that my original suggestion was to serve IE5Mac typographic styles but not layout styles - you can still make a web page that looks a whole lot nicer than a completely unstyled one; you just have to check that your content still works OK when it's delivered in linear fashion. sunny(fed-up-with-it) Don't be; it's a learning experience for you too - embrace it! And as dealing with and educating bosses/clients is probably drifting a bit OT for this list (although I think the concept of 'selling' Standards is perfectly relevant), feel free to contact me offlist if you'd like to continue the discussion. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Hi, 30 mintues ago I got a call from a user of our site (a department in a major public health institution) to say our site doesn't work for him. I established that he is using IE5/Mac (OS9). ... He took extreme umbrage ... You've experienced a web developer rite of passage - phone call from enraged user, specifically the mac user variety ;) To see what went wrong for them, you could run your site through browsercam (www.browsercam.com). The free trial will show you how it works and give you an idea of what your page looks like in IE5.2/Mac. Personally I see this as evidence of why we should serve entirely unstyled (or very simply styled) pages out to IE5.2 - pages remain functional without falling foul of design issues. The user can't say they don't work, although they might think the pages look boring. The only exception would be a site with a massive proportion of IE5.2/Mac which justifies the cost of writing the extra stylesheet. We've actually removed IE5/Mac from our supported list and onto our actively recommend you upgrade list. We generally do that for browsers with known rendering, scripting and security issues - for IE5.2 it was mostly due to Microsoft formally ending its life. If a security issue is found, it won't be patched; and we feel it's an unreasonable risk to users and advise them accordingly. Still, none of that helps when the user is already upset. cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Sunny, I'm sorry you had to go through this. If developing for IE is a genuine issue for you, one of the things I do is I actually have a completely craptastic Windows laptop that I test every site I create on. It was given to me by my mother, runs Windows XP, I can't get the resolution to go above 800 x 600, and it's got an oldish version of IE on it. It's the best thing I've ever done in terms of web design, because it lets me see right away what's barfing. I'm sure you could find a cheapish one on eBay or something similar; if you can, I would highly suggest itthe older the better. Cheers, Dani ~~ Dani Nordin the zen kitchen Graphic and web design with a touch of green 1 Fitchburg Street, B160 Somerville, MA 02143 401.787.5178 mobile See a full portfolio and sign up for our monthly newsletterthoughts on design, life, food and other trivialitiesat http://www.tzk-design.com Read our notes from the zen kitchenweekly(ish) articles on design, the environment, and life as a business owner - at http://zenkitchen.blogspot.com On 8/2/06 10:02 PM, SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone wrote: Out of interest, does anyone know how many OS 9 users are still out there? Amazing timing: 30 mintues ago I got a call from a user of our site (a department in a major public health institution) to say our site doesn't work for him. I established that he is using IE5/Mac (OS9). Someone else wrote: People who regularly use old computer/browser combinations are use to sites refusing them entry, crashing their browser or serving up unusable chaos as a web site. If you serve them good clean semantic X\HTML and CSS that does not kill their browser, you will be surprised as the positive reactions you will get. I DO serve up good clean semantic HTML/CSS, but I cannot test for IE5/Mac because I don't have the luxury of having a gazillion computers at my disposal. I do use the IE5/Mac Band Pass Filter to serve a separate sheet, but it only contains styles that are fixes for known issues ... everything else that might go wrong is an unknown for me. My explanations about using current best practice and web standards didn't go down well with him .. He said every other site works just fine, except yours. He asked what's so good about it now compared to the old one? .. and was singularly unimpressed with the answer (especially about accessibility issues: Well, *I* can't access it, can I?). He took extreme umbrage at my suggestion that it was a 10 year old browser that even Microsoft doesn't support any more (and our own IT department won't even support Mac), and that it was a bit of a dinosaur. In the end, all I could do was apologise that I couldn't support the browser he was using due to the constraints of my design environment, and wished him luck with his upgrade (he's been planning an upgrade, but hasn't gotten around to it). I felt deflated and close to tears (yea, I'm such a girl) ... I've worked damn hard on this site, and tried very hard to do The Right Thing all the way along, and tested it as much as I am able (but can't even test IE7 because I don't have XP). He said the one good thing is that at least our catalogue still works for him. Oh, great .. that's something that cost us a small fortune and was built by programmers who don't give a rats about good clean HTML, and makes me shudder with all its nested-table-spacer.gif ugliness. They're out there, folks, lurking, waiting to rise up and destroy ... sunny ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
SunUp wrote: I know how to prevent v.4 browsers from getting my styles, but how do I stop IE5/Mac from getting them?? All I know how to do is to give them something different, not how to exclude them entirely. Wrap all styles you don't want IE/Mac to see in an @media rule. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
On Aug 3, 2006, at 12:23 PM, SunUp wrote:
I know how to prevent v.4 browsers from getting my styles, but how do
I stop IE5/Mac from getting them?? All I know how to do is to give
them something different, not how to exclude them entirely.
wrap your entire stylesheet in a @media statement, like so:
@media screen {
/* all my ruleblocks */
}
then a the very top of your stylesheet, add a link to a IEMac
stylesheet, hidden from other browsers:
/*\*//*/
@import /path-to/ieM.css;
/* ie mac */
That said, I never had big problems in supporting IE Mac. A few extra
rules needed, but much less than what iExploder windows needs.
Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Dani wrote: If developing for IE is a genuine issue for you, ... I'm sure you could find a cheapish one on eBay or something similar; Thanks Dani, but I have IE5, IE5.5 and IE6.0 running on my PC, .. it's not that... (although IE7 testing is proving difficult).. It's the Mac problem. There's no way my department's budget will extend to purchasing an old Mac just for testing purposes, and even if that happened, I'd then have a fight on my hands with our IT department about network points and security issues. It's just so frustrating .. I can have all the best intentions in the world, and sing my I support this but I can't/won't support that song as long as I want .. bottom line = if even one user feels like they are being cheated of an experience that everyone else gets, then I feel like I've failed. sunny ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
one of the things I do is I actually have a completely craptastic Windows laptop that I test every site I create on. On a related note... apparently Virtual PC is now free! http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/default.mspx I haven't had time to play with it though Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Sunny wrote:
I know how to prevent v.4 browsers from getting my styles, but how do
I stop IE5/Mac from getting them?? All I know how to do is to give
them
something different, not how to exclude them entirely.
see: http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
@import url('styles.css'); /* excludes NS4, Mac IE5 */
@import 'styles.css'; /* excludes NS4, IE4, Mac IE5 */
But my experience is that IE 5 Mac does not take much effort to make
work. The main problems seem to be with foats, which always looks worse
than they actually are. There really is no need to give it an unstyled
look or a separate stylesheet when adding a couple of filters will fix
things.
cheers,
Geoff.
==
The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and
may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for
the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this
email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or
any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not
represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before
opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is
limited to resupplying any email and attachments
==
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
SunUp wrote: It's the Mac problem. There's no way my department's budget will extend to purchasing an old Mac just for testing purposes, and even if that happened, I'd then have a fight on my hands with our IT department about network points and security issues. If I was in that situation, I would either: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. * find a friend or collegue with Mac and ask them for help * buy a cheap iMac and test at home or * ask this list for help (send us the URL!) Cheers, Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
* refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Looks like that's the way to go, because .. * find a friend or collegue with Mac and ask them for help don't have any .. * buy a cheap iMac and test at home not in any financial position to even consider that ... and .. * ask this list for help (send us the URL!) hell no. not at all ready to be ripped to shreds yet. Thanks very very much to all advice and opinions. /me gets back in her box. s. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Paul Collins wrote: so when clients ask me what to build for I can justify building for IE5 Mac. Given that IE5/Mac is now officially obsolete, why not group it with other dinosaurs (NN4.x et al) with flaky CSS support and filter your CSS delivery so that browser only receives a stylesheet for nice typographic presentation, but not the full layout? This is what I've started doing... Generate the CSS for typography, bg colour/s, etc (e.g. basic.css) and a separate file for (e.g.) layout.css. Use the Tantek hack in the call for the second file in the head of your (X)HTML file, thus: link rel='stylesheet' type='text/css' media='all' href='inc/basic.css' / style type='text/css' media='screen'/*\*/@import inc/layout.css;/**//style and voila, IE5/Mac only recognises the first file. It saves hours of trial and error trying to get layouts to work in IE5M as they do in compliant browsers, and keeps your layout.css file clear of multiple instances of the Tantek hack. And as a bonus, because of the media attributes, your print styles are taken care of as well... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Nick Gleitzman wrote: Umm... OSX/Classic? Ah, you want details. Well, the web folks do use OSX/Classic... we are the select few that get that luxury. As for the rest of the newsroom folks, they are on older 7100's/Beige G3's and such... Upgrading to OSX just to run classic mode means a whole lot of cash. The best most employees can expect is a hand-me-down G3 blue-and-white or G4. Actually, now that you bring it up, I am realizing that there is too much to explain... Hehe, maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. :) Cheers, Micky ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Steve Green wrote: I would hardly call OSX an 'upgrade' - it's a major investment. It's not just the £100 or so for the OS, it's the cost of all the new applications like an office suite and all the other stuff you need plus the installation time and hassle of migrating email accounts etc. I know only too well... My tongue *was* firmly in cheek in calling this an upgrade... I don't have current figure for OS9 usage but in June 2004 (i.e. 3 years after OS X launched) Steve Jobs announced that 50% of the 24 million Mac users were now using OS X. That means 50% were still on OS9 or earlier. ...and that's 2 years ago now - a long time in computing! In the developed world we're used to having pretty up to date kit but don't forget that a large proportion of the world's population can't afford this and still use much older kit, often machines that have been discarded here precisely because the software cannot be upgraded. OK, sure - which brings me back to my suggestion of delivering a no-frills version of sites to people with no-frills gear. For the sake of nine characters, you can make sure your sites are accessible (=usable in this context) by the max number of visitors. Not as pretty, maybe, but what's more important - the layout or the content? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
