Re: Donations link
Ceki Gülcü wrote, On 24/07/2003 2.13: This whole donations crap is really not worth the trouble. I actually regret I brought it up especially after the discussion held on the fundraising@ list. Instead I think it was right. Whatever the outcome and the discussion on the fundraising list, it's good that there is increased awareness that funding is important and has to be part of the projects. So I thank you for coming out with a proposal and wilingness to help on this issue, as it's important, regardless of the final decisions that will be taken. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Donations link
This whole donations crap is really not worth the trouble. I actually regret I brought it up especially after the discussion held on the fundraising@ list. It is not like log4j every user would donate something. I expect less than one in every 10'000 log4j users per year to make a donation. Assuming donations of 20 USD, it amounts to less than 2'000 US dollars per year of which 30% go to the ASF. Let see. With the remaining 1'400 dollars, I intend buy out Microsoft in an offensive bid, help the world's poor and give the rest to Mark so he can buy IBM and save the rest of the world. BTW, the 1 in 10'000 is probably quite an accurate estimate. More comments below. At 09:21 AM 7/24/2003 +1000, Oliver Burn wrote: This is a tough issue, with no obvious answer. I had thought about doing something similar for the Checkstyle project I work on. As I see it, the major problem if you collect donations, is to determine how the money should be divided up among the people who commit to Log4J. I am assuming that you are not planning to keep all the money for yourself, as this would be unfair to people like Mark, who also contribute a lot of time/effort. So, assuming you are planning to divide up the money, how would you plan to do this? This has the potential to open up a Pandora's box of issues. Much in the same way there are issues in paying bonuses to programmers in the work environment. It also has the potential to kill off people being willing to contribute to Log4J. Look at the issues that surround JBoss. I wouldn't write off JBoss just yet. The rumors of its demise are vastly exaggerated imho. Any long term effort for serious development requires monetary resources. One way to secure those funds is to have a big corporation pay the salary of the developers. Another possibility is to have the developers do for-pay consulting work, a la JBoss. I don't know fully understand the MySql model. Personally, with the Checkstyle project I decided that it was far easier to avoid these problems and not collect donations. I work on Checkstyle for personal enjoyment, plus for professional gain through experience gained. Just my $0.02, Oliver > It appears that the non-profit status of the ASF does precludes such > links. A non-profit organization is not allowed to act as a front > for a for profit organization. > > Good to know. > > At 04:32 PM 7/23/2003 +0200, Ceki Gülcü wrote: >>Hello, >> >>I would like to set up a donations link on the log4j pages similar to >>the Jave project (http://www.jave.de/). The donations will be >>collected by QOS.ch (my company). Thirty percent (30%) of the >>proceedings will be transferred to the Apache Software Foundation in >>order to pay for our infrastructure, legal expenses and shore up >>reserves. The rest (70%) will be used to cover up the expenses of log4j >>development. >> >>What do you think? Is everyone comfortable with this idea? >> >>Let me add that the amounts involved are not very big. I really do not >>expect donations to exceed $2K per year. >> >>I have not yet asked the ASF board for their approval. I wanted to test >>the waters here first. > > -- > Ceki For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual" > ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual" ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Donations link
This is a tough issue, with no obvious answer. I had thought about doing something similar for the Checkstyle project I work on. As I see it, the major problem if you collect donations, is to determine how the money should be divided up among the people who commit to Log4J. I am assuming that you are not planning to keep all the money for yourself, as this would be unfair to people like Mark, who also contribute a lot of time/effort. So, assuming you are planning to divide up the money, how would you plan to do this? This has the potential to open up a Pandora's box of issues. Much in the same way there are issues in paying bonuses to programmers in the work environment. It also has the potential to kill off people being willing to contribute to Log4J. Look at the issues that surround JBoss. Personally, with the Checkstyle project I decided that it was far easier to avoid these problems and not collect donations. I work on Checkstyle for personal enjoyment, plus for professional gain through experience gained. Just my $0.02, Oliver > It appears that the non-profit status of the ASF does precludes such > links. A non-profit organization is not allowed to act as a front > for a for profit organization. > > Good to know. > > At 04:32 PM 7/23/2003 +0200, Ceki Gülcü wrote: >>Hello, >> >>I would like to set up a donations link on the log4j pages similar to >>the Jave project (http://www.jave.de/). The donations will be >>collected by QOS.ch (my company). Thirty percent (30%) of the >>proceedings will be transferred to the Apache Software Foundation in >>order to pay for our infrastructure, legal expenses and shore up >>reserves. The rest (70%) will be used to cover up the expenses of log4j >>development. >> >>What do you think? Is everyone comfortable with this idea? >> >>Let me add that the amounts involved are not very big. I really do not >>expect donations to exceed $2K per year. >> >>I have not yet asked the ASF board for their approval. I wanted to test >>the waters here first. > > -- > Ceki For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual" > ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Donations link
It appears that the non-profit status of the ASF does precludes such links. A non-profit organization is not allowed to act as a front for a for profit organization. Good to know. At 04:32 PM 7/23/2003 +0200, Ceki Gülcü wrote: Hello, I would like to set up a donations link on the log4j pages similar to the Jave project (http://www.jave.de/). The donations will be collected by QOS.ch (my company). Thirty percent (30%) of the proceedings will be transferred to the Apache Software Foundation in order to pay for our infrastructure, legal expenses and shore up reserves. The rest (70%) will be used to cover up the expenses of log4j development. What do you think? Is everyone comfortable with this idea? Let me add that the amounts involved are not very big. I really do not expect donations to exceed $2K per year. I have not yet asked the ASF board for their approval. I wanted to test the waters here first. -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual" ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Donations link
Ceki Gülcü wrote, On 23/07/2003 17.20: At 04:57 PM 7/23/2003 +0200, you wrote: For apache members, this is the list that discusses these things: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd suggest to see there what can be done. Nicola, Are you suggesting this proposal would be inappropriate or would meet opposition? I guess that since log4j is an Apache project, the donations gotten through Apache pages should go totally to Apache. Getting then $ support by Apache is another topic that can be discussed. I mean, if Apache gets more than enough $ to finance infrastructure and publicity, would it make sense to fund the project developers? Is it legally possible? (non-profit and stuff) Would be interesting to investigate, but I don't think it may happen that soon in any case. Anyway, before reaching consensus here at log4j-dev, there is not point in asking for approval from the board or the fundraising committee... Anyway, I totally support fundraising initiatives, as it's IMO important that Apache gets funding, but it's also important that the way it happens gets concerted and is approved by Apache, so that's why I posted the fundraising ML link. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Donations link
At 04:57 PM 7/23/2003 +0200, you wrote: For apache members, this is the list that discusses these things: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd suggest to see there what can be done. Nicola, Are you suggesting this proposal would be inappropriate or would meet opposition? Anyway, before reaching consensus here at log4j-dev, there is not point in asking for approval from the board or the fundraising committee... -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual" ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Donations link
Ceki Gülcü wrote, On 23/07/2003 16.32: ... I have not yet asked the ASF board for their approval. I wanted to test the waters here first. For apache members, this is the list that discusses these things: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd suggest to see there what can be done. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Donations link
At 10:41 AM 7/23/2003 -0400, you wrote: No objections at all in principle. Just curious what's meant, exactly, by "cover up the expenses of log4j development." It should have read "cover" not "cover up". It ain't the pizza-connection. :-) To answer your question, any amount of sustained development takes time and thus costs money. Although I do not expect to be fully paid for the time dedicated for log4j, a small of compensation would be welcome. I hope this answers your question. -Original Message- From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Donations link Hello, I would like to set up a donations link on the log4j pages similar to the Jave project (http://www.jave.de/). The donations will be collected by QOS.ch (my company). Thirty percent (30%) of the proceedings will be transferred to the Apache Software Foundation in order to pay for our infrastructure, legal expenses and shore up reserves. The rest (70%) will be used to cover up the expenses of log4j development. What do you think? Is everyone comfortable with this idea? Let me add that the amounts involved are not very big. I really do not expect donations to exceed $2K per year. I have not yet asked the ASF board for their approval. I wanted to test the waters here first. -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual" ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual" ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Donations link
No objections at all in principle. Just curious what's meant, exactly, by "cover up the expenses of log4j development." -Original Message- From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:33 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Donations link Hello, I would like to set up a donations link on the log4j pages similar to the Jave project (http://www.jave.de/). The donations will be collected by QOS.ch (my company). Thirty percent (30%) of the proceedings will be transferred to the Apache Software Foundation in order to pay for our infrastructure, legal expenses and shore up reserves. The rest (70%) will be used to cover up the expenses of log4j development. What do you think? Is everyone comfortable with this idea? Let me add that the amounts involved are not very big. I really do not expect donations to exceed $2K per year. I have not yet asked the ASF board for their approval. I wanted to test the waters here first. -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual" ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
