Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Dominik Psenner]

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that 
I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize 
the current state of the vote:


log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->d...@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ 
->u...@logging.apache.org

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4

Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to 
half of them less than five minutes ago.


This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing 
lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:


log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
d...@logging.apache.org 
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
u...@logging.apache.org 


commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for 
the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To 
distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:


[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help 
in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.


Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no 
-1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be 
open for at least 72 hours.


--
Matt Sicker >

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Thorsten Schöning]

Guten Tag Apache,
am Mittwoch, 8. März 2017 um 13:38 schrieben Sie:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting.
> The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply
> because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want
> to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

-0 from me.

You surely already discussed most/all pros and cons... So while I
prefer the language based organization of the lists as well, I'm
somewhat sure I can live with your suggestion if it makes life easier
for others.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Thorsten Schöning

-- 
Thorsten Schöning   E-Mail: thorsten.schoen...@am-soft.de
AM-SoFT IT-Systeme  http://www.AM-SoFT.de/

Telefon...05151-  9468- 55
Fax...05151-  9468- 88
Mobil..0178-8 9468- 04

AM-SoFT GmbH IT-Systeme, Brandenburger Str. 7c, 31789 Hameln
AG Hannover HRB 207 694 - Geschäftsführer: Andreas Muchow

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker]

Based on the voting so far, it looks like merging user lists isn't desired.
I'm cool with that, so I'll -1 the user list merge as well. I'm still +1
for merging developer lists unless someone has a better idea. We shouldn't
have to rely on the private list for public discussions.

On 8 March 2017 at 06:38, Apache  wrote:

> The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC
> had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC
> members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not
> possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker  wrote:
>
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> d...@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> u...@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker 
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker 

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Apache]

The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC had to 
discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC members don't 
subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not possible to have 
the discussion on the correct mailing list.

Ralph

> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker  wrote:
> 
> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of 
> them less than five minutes ago.
> 
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. 
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
> 
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> 
> d...@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> 
> u...@logging.apache.org
> 
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
> 
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the 
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish 
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
> 
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
> 
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in 
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
> 
> Voting:
> 
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
> 
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no 
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for 
> at least 72 hours.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Sicker 

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Stefan Bodewig]

On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.

> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> d...@logging.apache.org

+1

> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> u...@logging.apache.org

-1

I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).

Stefan

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker]

No wait, the lazy voting thing at Commons is just the same form we use for
code, just with an email plus a 72 hour notice. Makes sense for repository
changes since those are a pain to reverse once the format is changed to git.

On 7 March 2017 at 23:07, Matt Sicker  wrote:

> The -1 thing is mentioned here 
> regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
> anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
> context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
> whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers  wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
>> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
>> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
>> opposed.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker  wrote:
>>
>> This is my +1.
>>
>> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
>> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
>> out in the bylaws.
>>
>> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker  wrote:
>>
>>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to
>>> half of them less than five minutes ago.
>>>
>>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>>
>>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>>> d...@logging.apache.org
>>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>>> u...@logging.apache.org
>>>
>>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>>
>>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>>
>>> [java]
>>> [net]
>>> [cxx]
>>> [php]
>>>
>>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>>
>>> Voting:
>>>
>>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>>
>>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>>> for at least 72 hours.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt Sicker 
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker 
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker 
>



-- 
Matt Sicker 

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker]

The -1 thing is mentioned here 
regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally
anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that
context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though
whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers  wrote:

> +1
>
> Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything
> else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally
> strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are
> opposed.
>
> Ralph
>
> On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker  wrote:
>
> This is my +1.
>
> If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
> instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
> out in the bylaws.
>
> On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker  wrote:
>
>> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
>> of them less than five minutes ago.
>>
>> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing
>> lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>>
>> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
>> d...@logging.apache.org
>> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
>> u...@logging.apache.org
>>
>> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>>
>> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for
>> the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To
>> distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>>
>> [java]
>> [net]
>> [cxx]
>> [php]
>>
>> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
>> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>>
>> Voting:
>>
>> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
>> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
>> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
>> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>>
>> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
>> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
>> for at least 72 hours.
>>
>> --
>> Matt Sicker 
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker 
>
>
>


-- 
Matt Sicker 

Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

[Matt Sicker]

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority
instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled
out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker  wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.
>
> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:
>
> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> d...@logging.apache.org
> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> u...@logging.apache.org
>
> commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.
>
> The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the
> combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish
> between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:
>
> [java]
> [net]
> [cxx]
> [php]
>
> Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in
> gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.
>
> Voting:
>
> +1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
> +0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
> -0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
> -1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!
>
> This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no
> -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open
> for at least 72 hours.
>
> --
> Matt Sicker 
>



-- 
Matt Sicker