### Re: Maths Problem

```
Chris Benson wrote:
Mmmm, so if there are 3 water lilies with circular leaves, what
is the largest they can grow on the surface of a sphere without
overlap? On a circle it's easy to see it's just less than the
radius of the circle.  Not so easy with a sphere.

Well, first off, the circles won't be circles as we know them since
they're not 2D circles but have a 3D component (or they wouldn't be on the
surface of the sphere but rather cutting a slice through it).

However, I'd imagine that with three such bulgy circles, the best you can do
is space them equally around the equator.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### Re: Maths Problem

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:01:05AM +0100, Chris Benson wrote:
Mmmm, so if there are 3 water lilies with circular leaves, what is the
largest they can grow on the surface of a sphere without overlap?
On a circle it's easy to see it's just less than the radius of the
circle.  Not so easy with a sphere.

Looks like evenly-spaced around the equator. With only three points,
they'll _have_ to be coplanar by definition. And, of course, a belt
of n points around the equator is even spacing, but doesn't look good...

Roger

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
Dave Cross wrote:
On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:53:30PM +0200, Paul Johnson
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
I'll have to be an honourary member since I'm in Switzerland
at the moment

That's just down the road in comparison to some of the people that
consider themselves members of london.pm :)

Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably?

(I suppose Simon Cozens had him beat while he was in Japan, but was he part
of London.pm then? I think he is now.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
Greg McCarroll wrote:
I was just playing around and wrote

http://217.34.97.146/~gem/perl/lpm_cpan_lb.cgi

Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable
to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, [EMAIL PROTECTED] and inform
them of the time the error
occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Apache/1.3.14 Server at 217.34.97.146 Port 80

(Oh, and I don't think [EMAIL PROTECTED] is a valid address
according to RFC 2?822. Bad Apache.)

Cheers,
Phi I got a '500 Server Error'. What's wrong with my script? lip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
Greg McCarroll wrote:
I'll cleanup/optimize/add error checking tommorow. but
i thought i'd let you see it tonight for fun and
advance warning.

And remove the trailing comma? (Perhaps use 'join' rather than 'map \$_,'
or whatever?)

If i haven't got your CPAN id included in the list at the
bottom please email me off list, i just skipped through
the who's who very quickly getting a decent list of people
who looked london.pm-ish to test it.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### RE: early peek at a bit of fun

```
From: Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 7:33 AM

Dave Cross wrote:
On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:53:30PM +0200, Paul Johnson
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
I'll have to be an honourary member since I'm in Switzerland
at the moment

That's just down the road in comparison to some of the people that
consider themselves members of london.pm :)

Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably?

(I suppose Simon Cozens had him beat while he was in Japan, but was he
part
of London.pm then? I think he is now.)

Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in Australia.

Leon, how about a london.pm world map :)

Dave...

--

The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error, please
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.

```

### Re: YAPC::Europe: flights, hotels and minigolf.

```
On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

* Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Well, I'm now 'official' all the way, flights and hotel.

Easyjey seem to have worked it out and have put up the flight
costs by a couple of quid (£71 inc card charg of 3 quid)!

still thats not bad

what i think they do is start cheap then slowly raise the price
as seats get booked up

i'm wondering how many London.pm are going to be on this flight

shit i just had a thought, do easy jet serve drinks? do they?
please say they do? *panic starts to set in* ;-)

There is a semi-decent bar at Gatwick airport anyhow  Or we could all
meet up for a pints in Horley first :)

/J\

```

### Re: YAPC::Europe: flights, hotels and minigolf.

```
* Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

* Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Well, I'm now 'official' all the way, flights and hotel.

Easyjey seem to have worked it out and have put up the flight
costs by a couple of quid (£71 inc card charg of 3 quid)!

still thats not bad

what i think they do is start cheap then slowly raise the price
as seats get booked up

i'm wondering how many London.pm are going to be on this flight

shit i just had a thought, do easy jet serve drinks? do they?
please say they do? *panic starts to set in* ;-)

There is a semi-decent bar at Gatwick airport anyhow ..

we can even stand outside the business lounge and wave in
at Dave Cross who will be stroking his gold plated cat and
enjoying a gimlet

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```

Now imagine a big field, with a treasure chest in the middle
of it - this is your security.

Now, imagine the chest is buried in the field, and no-one saw me bury it.
This is my security.

Snip enormous security through obscurity tirade

However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that
really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the
trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round
killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See
also the way diamonds are transported around Hatton Garden (i.e. in
people's pockets, not in securicor vans).

--
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```
* Jonathan Peterson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

Now imagine a big field, with a treasure chest in the middle
of it - this is your security.

Now, imagine the chest is buried in the field, and no-one saw me bury it.
This is my security.

Snip enormous security through obscurity tirade

However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that

you should of let me know, and we could of played MP, the same goes
for any other BG2 or freeciv (just for you *nix compulsives) players
out there.

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```

### Re: YAPC::Europe: flights, hotels and minigolf.

```

we can even stand outside the business lounge and wave in
at Dave Cross who will be stroking his gold plated cat and
enjoying a gimlet

Is this some SM reference? How does one enjoy a gimlet? Gouge it into the
cat maybe

--
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

```

### Re: CMS frameworks

```
On Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 10:33:57AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
Some guys out here in Brizzle want to do Yet Another CMS. Are there
any frameworks out there they can plug together to make something
plausible?

I guess bits of the 2.0 slashcode do the job nicely, what with being
TT based and all.

If you're into XML and AxKit, I think that Matt Sergeant has made the
stuff he uses for take23.org available.

sound type=mailbox_rummage/

Ah yes, AxKit-NewsMaker.  Available for download from:

http://axkit.org/download/

I haven't actually looked at how easy it is to work with, but it'll
probably require fairly good XML familiarity.

-Dom

--
| Semantico: creators of major online resources  |
|   URL: http://www.semantico.com/   |
|   Tel: +44 (1273) 72   |
|   Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |

```

### Re: YAPC::Europe

```
Paul Mison wrote:

On 15/06/2001 at 09:17 +0100, Dean wrote:
Are there any plans for a group of London PMer's to fly over together
or is
the whole thing going to be ad hoc?

Not yet, no. (Oh, and what are the cheapest flights from London City?
Living in skanky East London's got to be good for *something*.)

I was hoping for a lovely cheap flight from London City to Amsterdam but
VLM (who I can get cheap flight from) only fly to Rotterdam :(

There are flights to Amsterdam from there but they're about 120 quid :(

Will try and see if I can get cheapo flight through my contacts.

Organising anything for London.pm once a year is enough. (Oh, did the
pub evaluation sessions happen this week, or did I miss something?)

No, I was really busy last week. Will try and do them this week.

--
simon wistowwireless systems coder
only second toughest

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
Greg McCarroll wrote:

If i haven't got your CPAN id included in the list at the
bottom please email me off list, i just skipped through
the who's who very quickly getting a decent list of people
who looked london.pm-ish to test it.

But I have two modules up there at the moment ... File::Binary and
Apache::Session::SharedMem so I should at least 3=

:(

/me pouts

--
simon wistowwireless systems coder
only second toughest

```

### Re: Government Websites

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:59:52AM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:

Tired of government websites that only cater for browsers with non-standard
proprietary extensions (cf http://www.gateway.gov.uk. Don't jsut sit there
complaining - do something positive about it!

http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/Browse/Fulltextjob/0,1755,100124337,00.html

An understanding of HTML and applications such as Dreamweaver, Photoshop,
Fireworks, Flash, Perl, JavaScript, ASP and XML is essential, as is the
ability to see the web through users' eyes

How many errors in one paragraph!

1) Interesting, Perl is now an application as are all the others.

2) Oh, yea, make your designers code and your coders design,
that'll make for a good site - honest.

3) see the web through users' eyes - easy, they can't all
see it - does that mean you don't have to do anything ?

:)

Leo

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```
Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Now imagine a big field, with a treasure chest in the middle
of it - this is your security.

Now, imagine the chest is buried in the field, and no-one saw me bury
it. This is my security.

Snip enormous security through obscurity tirade

However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say
that really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want
found, the trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is
going to go round killing every peasant in the land to find the one
with the treasure. See also the way diamonds are transported around
Hatton Garden (i.e. in people's pockets, not in securicor vans).

Don't remind me. I used to work in Hatton Gardenm, and bought Gill's
engagement ring there. Well, that's not quite true, I bought the
*pieces* of Gill's engagement ring there. Which is a story in itself
that I'll tell at a London.pm social evening one time.

The scariest bit was handing over £400 or so worth of gem + gold to
the bloke who was going to turn it into a real ring. A bloke who I had
never met before that moment. Who was going to do the work for 15
quid. And he looked surprised when I asked for a receipt.

--
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com

```

### Re: Government Websites

```
Leo Lapworth wrote:
2) Oh, yea, make your designers code and your coders design,
that'll make for a good site - honest.

Though if the designers have some idea of what is and what isn't
possible/easy to implement, maybe we wouldn't have so many image roll-overs,
blank one-pixel GIFs, tables within tables withing tables, etc.

3) see the web through users' eyes - easy, they can't all
see it - does that mean you don't have to do anything ?

Users will say: I don't have Flash and don't want to download it.
Therefore, I should leave out the Flash bits of the site. Users will say: I
read that JavaScript can expose security holes, so I'll turn it off.
Therefore, I will make all my navigation work without JavaScript turned on.

Sounds like a good idea to me so far.

Cheers,
philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### RE: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On 18/06/2001 at 09:02 +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:

(I suppose Simon Cozens had him beat while he was in Japan, but was
he part of London.pm then? I think he is now.)

Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in
Australia.

Leon, how about a london.pm world map :)

Combine it with the (sadly mythical) IP2LL and it'd be easy.

--
:: paul
:: 'aggressive is a big M - and the misses generally
::  don't survive aeroplane crashes.' dadadodo

```

### Re: CMS frameworks

```
Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Any other offers?

http://scoop.kuro5hin.org/

Why do all these things have to look like Slashdot? It that now the
ONLY metaphor for these things. I know Nielsen would approve of the
familiarity part but...

'cos they're all based on the Slash code? Which isn't all that amenable
to total reskinning.

--
simon wistowwireless systems coder
only second toughest

```

### Re: YAPC::Europe

```
Simon Wistow wrote:
[Rotterdam]
There are flights to Amsterdam from there but they're about
120 quid :(

So take the train? Only takes an hour with the IC, and it's probably cheaper
than flying on such a short distance.

You can even go straight to Diemen Zuid if you're going to the conference
first (and it's closer to the hotel as well); change at Leiden Centraal or
at Schiphol(Airport). Still only 1:02 or 1:12, depending on your connection.
(Although you'd have to get to Rotterdam Centraal from the airport, I
admit.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
Paul Mison wrote:

On 18/06/2001 at 09:02 +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:

(I suppose Simon Cozens had him beat while he was in Japan, but was
he part of London.pm then? I think he is now.)

Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in
Australia.

Leon, how about a london.pm world map :)

Combine it with the (sadly mythical) IP2LL and it'd be easy.

There are modules out there for doing IP2LL

http://www-unix.mcs.anl.gov/~olson/IPtoLL.html/ and
http://www.caida.org/tools/utilities/netgeo/

But it just isn't all guaranteed to be accurate for various reasons.
Getting, say 70% accuracy isn't taht hard, the next 20% is very hard,
the next 10% after that is nigh on impossible.

other links
http://www-pablo.cs.uiuc.edu/Project/VR/ip2ll/faq.htm
http://www.twoshortplanks.com/simon/ip2ll/
http://www-unix.mcs.anl.gov/~laszewsk/java/doc1/api/org.globus.applications.mapper.GeographicalLocator.html

--
simon wistowwireless systems coder
only second toughest

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:39:31 +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
If i haven't got your CPAN id included in the list at the
bottom please email me off list, i just skipped through
the who's who very quickly getting a decent list of people
who looked london.pm-ish to test it.

Please include PMH on that list. Thanks

--
Peter Haworth   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Everyone is a genius.
It's just that some people are too stupid to realize it.

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:58:09 +0100, Peter Haworth wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:39:31 +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
If i haven't got your CPAN id included in the list at the
bottom please email me off list, i just skipped through
the who's who very quickly getting a decent list of people
who looked london.pm-ish to test it.

Please include PMH on that list. Thanks

Damn, damn and thrice, damn! This was, of course, supposed to be off-list.

Incidentally, I sent a request to the modules list over a week ago, and I haven't had
any response yet, nor is my module in the list. I'm sure it was quicker for the other
two requests I submitted.

--
Peter Haworth   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If we do not hang together, we shall surely all hang separately.

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
Simon Wistow sent the following bits through the ether:

There are modules out there for doing IP2LL

http://www.astray.com/Bath.pm/near.cgi
even worked in Montreal. Fails for btinternet atm though...

Leon
--
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/

... Dyslexics of the world, untie!

```

### Re: CMS frameworks

```
Simon Wistow sent the following bits through the ether:

'cos they're all based on the Slash code? Which isn't all that amenable
to total reskinning.

Oh look, that slashcode 2.0 uses Template Toolkit...

Leon
--
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/

... Did you know there's a guy living in our closet?

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote:

However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that
really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the
trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round
killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See

That is unless you're Herod. Then Herod, when he saw that he had been
tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all
the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years
old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise
men.

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. That's the only
way to be sure.

Later.

Mark.

--
s''  Mark Fowler London.pm   Bath.pm
http://www.twoshortplanks.com/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
';use Term'Cap;\$t=Tgetent Term'Cap{};print\$t-Tputs(cl);for\$w(split/  +/
){for(0..30){\$|=print\$t-Tgoto(cm,\$_,\$y). \$w;select\$k,\$k,\$k,.03}\$y+=2}

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:35:08AM +0100, Paul Mison wrote:
On 18/06/2001 at 09:02 +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:

Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in
Australia.

Leon, how about a london.pm world map :)

Combine it with the (sadly mythical) IP2LL and it'd be easy.

Just require that to join london.pm you must have a LOC record in your
DNS.  Ah hell, let's require HINFO as well.

--
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:11:50PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:

I must have imagined London.pm.

Thank God! It was all a horrible, horrible dream!!!

Alex
--
Four pints of milk, a turkey baster and some plastic
tubing, that's all you need.
http://www.cpio.org/~grimoire
http://www.livejournal.com/users/diffrentcolours

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Eh-hem.  Apparently my nearest five groups are Belfast, SouthWales, Glasgow,
Bathgate and Manchester.

I couldn't tell, sorry. Use the map instead.

Waah, it hates me!
--
rob partington % [EMAIL PROTECTED] % http://lynx.browser.org/

```

### e-smith

```

Tangentially on-topic for this list because of skud's involvement...

I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on
the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and
install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling,
file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server.

And if my memory isn't letting me down completely, skud will be giving a
talk on e-smith at YAPC::E.

Dave...

--

The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this communication in error, please
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.

```

### Re: e-smith

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:

Tangentially on-topic for this list because of skud's involvement...

What is this 'topic' of which you speak?

I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on
the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and
install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling,
file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server.

Bleah.

--
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie

```

### Re: Government Websites

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 11:41:57AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:

Users will say: I don't have Flash and don't want to download it.
Therefore, I should leave out the Flash bits of the site. Users will say: I
read that JavaScript can expose security holes, so I'll turn it off.
Therefore, I will make all my navigation work without JavaScript turned on.

Sounds like a good idea to me so far.

Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!.

R

```

### Re: Government Websites

```
Roger Burton West wrote:
Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!.

You need to get some better users.

Cheers,
philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### Re: e-smith

```
David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:

Tangentially on-topic for this list because of skud's involvement...

What is this 'topic' of which you speak?

Something matching /^[fyreub ]+\z/i, I think.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### Re: Government Websites

```
- Original Message -
From: Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Government Websites

Roger Burton West wrote:
Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!.

You need to get some better users.

That could be a viable business opportunity. A site where businesses could
rent quality users for their software/websites etc. :-)

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```

On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Mark Fowler wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote:

However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that
really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the
trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round
killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See

That is unless you're Herod. Then Herod, when he saw that he had been
tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed
all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two
years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained
from the wise men. I say we take off and nuke the entire site from
orbit. That's the only way to be sure.

I play Herod in a school play once.  Go figure.

L.
Mmm, caffeine...

```

### Re: www.gateway.gov.uk

```
On Jun 17, David Cantrell wrote:
Out of interest, does anyone know if it's done in-house or contracted out?
(I strongly suspect the latter)

The latter.  Via EDS and Microsoft, I believe.

*shudder* EDS. That explains it then!

This incompetence is further manifested in their choice of platform.
even if I *could* use it, I wouldn't use it anyway, as I do not have
sufficient confidence in the integrity of the server for such important
information as my (eg) medical and tax data.

Err, why? What do you know about its implementation as opposed to any other
government website?

david@lapdog:~\$ HEAD http://www.gateway.gov.uk|grep ^Server
Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0

That, and EDS and Microsoft being involved.

Ah, so primarily blind bigotism then.

Note that whilst other government sites may suffer from the same problems,

What problems? Other than the people behind it you've not mentioned any.

--
| Mark Hynes  [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
| What are you trying to incinerate? |

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```

On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Alex Page wrote:

On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:11:50PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
I must have imagined London.pm.

Thank God! It was all a horrible, horrible dream!!!

Yeah, well at least you all didn't dream about that guy with the
cheese...

L.
Speako.

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```

On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Lucy McWilliam wrote:

However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that
really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the
trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round
killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See

That is unless you're Herod.

I play Herod in a school play once.  Go figure.

Aargh...played.  Maybe I should go and imbibe some of that caffeine stuff.

L.
Mmm, caffeine...

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```
* Lucy McWilliam ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

I play Herod in a school play once.  Go figure.

Aargh...played.  Maybe I should go and imbibe some of that caffeine stuff.

For what its worth I saw nothing wrong with your original message.

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```

### Re: www.gateway.gov.uk

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 02:00:32PM +0100, Mark Hynes wrote:

On Jun 17, David Cantrell wrote:

david@lapdog:~\$ HEAD http://www.gateway.gov.uk|grep ^Server
Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0

That, and EDS and Microsoft being involved.

Ah, so primarily blind bigotism then.

No, they're using software with a poor reputation, and having the site
developed in conjunction with two companies with a poor reputation.

--
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie

```

### Accomodation for YAPC::Europe

```

Jouke is currently arranging reasonably priced hotel accomodation
for London.pm. He needs you to fill out the little informal form
he posted on YAPC::Europe's mailing list. This is an excellent
way to get your accomodation arranged quickly and easily and end
up spending time in a hotel with other mongers (that is mean't
to be a plus point). People can also share twin rooms to reduce
the cost further.

I'm note sure, but I'd imagine there is some limit on the number
of spaces that will end up being available. Especially when you
consider room configurations.

Greg

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:33:11AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably?

Me  Andy M. probably, living on the left coast.

Paul

```

### Templating Solutions

```

Friends,

HELP!

In a moment of stupidity[1] I agreed to write an article for lathos on
templating solutions for Perl. This was an attempt to finally break my
writing block/issues/mindset problems. It is going to be a compare and
contrast article and so far I've looked at,

Template Toolkit
HTML::Mason
Text::Template
HTML::Template
HTML::Embperl

First, are there any others that I should look at? Also I'd really like
any objective input people have about templating with these modules. It
is important to me to try and not just get the article done and dusted,
but for once to write a piece of text that I am happy with.

Greg

[1] I get lots.

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
Paul Makepeace wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:33:11AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably?

Me  Andy M. probably, living on the left coast.

You forgot Damian (as had I).

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
In a moment of stupidity[1] I agreed to write an article for lathos on
templating solutions for Perl. This was an attempt to finally break my
writing block/issues/mindset problems. It is going to be a compare and
contrast article and so far I've looked at,

Template Toolkit
HTML::Mason
Text::Template
HTML::Template
HTML::Embperl

First, are there any others that I should look at? Also I'd really like
any objective input people have about templating with these modules. It
is important to me to try and not just get the article done and dusted,
but for once to write a piece of text that I am happy with.

Very simple, but what I've done in the past is simply read in a file and
do something like:

\$text =~ s/\\$(\w+)/\$1/eeg;

Which substitutes any perl vars in the file for stuff in your current
program.  Not very pretty, but cheap and easy.

-Dom

--
| Semantico: creators of major online resources  |
|   URL: http://www.semantico.com/   |
|   Tel: +44 (1273) 72   |
|   Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```

Greg,

I did this (just for TT2 and HTML::Template) for torrington,
results (REALLY badly formatted *blushes to admit it was done
in word and saved to HTML*) can be seen at:

http://torrington.cuckoo.org/template_systems.shtml

No (c) on it.. so feel free to hack and copy as you will.

Hope it's of some use, obviously it's aimed at a specific
audience, e.g. the Agency and trying to get them to move
from HTML::Template to TT2 (personally I think that's why
they went under - not using TT, but it's just my consipricy theory)

:)

I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no!
(ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy
HTML and thy Perl in the same file).

Leo

On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
In a moment of stupidity[1] I agreed to write an article for lathos on
templating solutions for Perl.

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
Greg McCarroll sent the following bits through the ether:

In a moment of stupidity[1]

Fool.

There are at least 30 other Perl templating systems. See the
templating systems benchmark last week on the mod_perl list for
example. Perrin Harkins is presenting Choosing a Templating System
at oscon, so you could at least ask him for his list...

Leon

ps speed isn't important
--
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/

... If I were you, who'd be me?

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
At 04:36 PM 6/18/01 +0100, Greg wrote:
In a moment of stupidity[1] I agreed to write an article for lathos on
templating solutions for Perl. This was an attempt to finally break my
writing block/issues/mindset problems. It is going to be a compare and
contrast article and so far I've looked at,
[list of CPAN templating modules]

I'm sure many of us have written and used home grown templating systems
such a simple regex over a basic template. It may be a good idea to compare
the templating systems available on CPAN to a home grown one. What
advantages they give and what are the disadvantages etc

Rob

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
Oi,

Rob,

What's this,

Home grown (and not smokable),

I left Emap too early if your not a TT2 convert yet.

We can 'do lunch' later this week and I'll bash you
with some TT2 docs or something :)

Leo

On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:57:17PM +0100, Robert Price wrote:
It may be a good idea to compare
the templating systems available on CPAN to a home grown one. What
advantages they give and what are the disadvantages etc

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Template Toolkit
HTML::Mason
Text::Template
HTML::Template
HTML::Embperl

Also Apache::ASP

searching for template on CPAN also gets quite a lot of hits...

--
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness.  -- mark twain

```

### Re: YAPC::Europe

```
Quoting Simon Wistow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
I was hoping for a lovely cheap flight from London City to Amsterdam but
VLM (who I can get cheap flight from) only fly to Rotterdam :(

So?

There are flights to Amsterdam from there but they're about 120 quid :(
Will try and see if I can get cheapo flight through my contacts.

Rotterdam is my favourite airport to fly to in Holland, together with
Maastricht. It will take you about 4 minutes to get from your plane seat
to your taxi seat. No kidding. 1 minute to walk to the building, 1
minute queuing with the other 20 passengers for the two customs
officials, 1 minute waiting for your bag, 1 minute walking to your taxi.

It will cost you 15 guilders (less then 5 pounds) to get to the central
station with a taxi in 5 minutes, then about 30 guilders (less then 10
pounds) to get to Amsterdam in 1 hour. (45 minutes and you will be
passing Schiphol airport). I will bet you that the moment you pass
Schiphol, the people that landed at the same time are still walking to
their luggage, for which they will have to wait another half hour. If it
arrived there, and didn't send to Timbuktu.

Plus you don't have to sit between the stag|hen-party-goes-Amsterdam
easyjet, or heaven forbid even worse London.pm, rabble. :-) I really
like checing in as well, with 20 people on a flight it is the most
relaxing thing ever, especially compared with the Easyjet approach of
let's open the free-seating for all check-in 20 minutes before we close
for these 400 people now. Or when we finish our nailpolish.

Cheers,
--
Merijn Broeren | Fact: GPRS does not work if the Mobile Station (your phone,
Software Geek  | that is) moves faster than 500 km/h. Tip: NEVER drive faster
than 450 km/h if you are wapping while driving!

```

### Re: Government Websites

```
Quoting Roger Burton West ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!.

Poing-poing-poing!
--
Merijn Broeren | Fact: GPRS does not work if the Mobile Station (your phone,
Software Geek  | that is) moves faster than 500 km/h. Tip: NEVER drive faster
than 450 km/h if you are wapping while driving!

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```

I like ePerl, comprised of
Apache::ePerl
Parse::ePerl

It's a very simple does what it says on the tin way of embedding perl in
any other (text) fine, plus it has low level access to what it does in it's
parse routine. Handy in many situations, I find.

No new versions since 1998 and none planned, so it's stable. Or dead,
depending on your viewpoint.

--
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, +44 (0)20 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

First, are there any others that I should look at? Also I'd really like
any objective input people have about templating with these modules. It
is important to me to try and not just get the article done and dusted,
but for once to write a piece of text that I am happy with.

Key distinction is: what sort of code is going into the page? Is it
something fairly basic (H::T, T::T in some ways of using it) or
something closer to actual perl? (In the latter case, of course, it is
Evil, because it removes any possibility of separation of code and
data - you might as well be writing PHP.)

The main reason I prefer H::T to T::T is that H::T templates can be
given to Dreamweaver monkeys to edit without my having to worry that
they'll screw them up.

Roger

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
Simon Wilcox wrote:
I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason  Apache::ASP because they all
embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm).

Why is that so evil?

I'm willing to be enlightened here.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
* at 18/06 17:21 +0100 Roger Burton West said:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

The main reason I prefer H::T to T::T is that H::T templates can be
given to Dreamweaver monkeys to edit without my having to worry that
they'll screw them up.

That is an important consideration although in my experience a
taleneted dreamweaver mokey can screw up pretty much anything that
isn't created by dreamweaver in the first place.

struan

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
* Philip Newton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Simon Wilcox wrote:
I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason  Apache::ASP because they all
embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm).

Why is that so evil?

i think it one of two schools of thought

is your template a Template or a Rich Template

by Rich Template i mean it has some programming language
type structures such as loops

i think, if i recall my limited research correctly, MJD talks about
this in the pod for Text::Template under the section Philosophy

Greg

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Simon Wilcox wrote:
I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason  Apache::ASP because they all
embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm).
Why is that so evil?
I'm willing to be enlightened here.

Mainly maintainability. In the same way as it's evil to mix two types of
language - Perl and SQL, although people seem to be a lot more prepared
to do this :-(

The point is that if you are embedding perl, there are too many places
that things can be changed. It is possible to write embedded perl templates
well, but a lot more difficult than if they are separated out.

MBM

--
Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://colondot.net/

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:39:11PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Simon Wilcox wrote:
I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason  Apache::ASP because they all
embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm).
Why is that so evil?
I'm willing to be enlightened here.

Mainly maintainability. In the same way as it's evil to mix two types of
language - Perl and SQL, although people seem to be a lot more prepared
to do this :-(

The point is that if you are embedding perl, there are too many places
that things can be changed. It is possible to write embedded perl templates
well, but a lot more difficult than if they are separated out.

Most of the Java thingies that I've looked at start talking about MVC at
this point as a good solution to the problem.  But I don't know anything
about that, and I would love somebody to explain it to me in nice
perlisms.

I'd love to have a decent solution to keeping lots of code out of the
HTML files.  At the moment, I'm thinking that it might just be simplest
to move things over to AxKit taglibs...

-Dom

--
| Semantico: creators of major online resources  |
|   URL: http://www.semantico.com/   |
|   Tel: +44 (1273) 72   |
|   Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
Leo Lapworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Oi,

Rob,

What's this,

Home grown (and not smokable),

I left Emap too early if your not a TT2 convert yet.

We can 'do lunch' later this week and I'll bash you
with some TT2 docs or something :)

Oooh! Me too!

--
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Simon Wilcox wrote:
I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason  Apache::ASP because they all
embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm).

Why is that so evil?

I'm willing to be enlightened here.

Separation of code and data - or in this case, layout, content
and logic. You can have multiple template files (say, for HTML,
WAP, I-mode, and whatnot) while keeping a single, fairly simple
program as the back-end (which doesn't need to know what sort of
platform it's filling in a template for, just which template file
to load).

Roger

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:38:44AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that
really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the
trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round
killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See
also the way diamonds are transported around Hatton Garden (i.e. in
people's pockets, not in securicor vans).

And if you have a rouge stone worth 1500 gold you shouldn't put it in a
chicken while a shady guy is watching, since said shady guy might tell some
feisty adventurers about it for a small fee. Especially if you live in Umar
Hills.

--
Niklas Nordebo -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- +447966251290
The day is seven hours and fifteen minutes old, and already it's
crippled with the weight of my evasions, deceit, and downright lies

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
Philip Newton wrote:

Simon Wilcox wrote:
I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason  Apache::ASP because they all
embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm).

Why is that so evil?

I'm willing to be enlightened here.

A couple of reasons.

Separation of code  presentation is good because it means that your
designers can concentrate on the design  html whilst your programmers
concentrate on function.

It helps if those not familiar with perl don't have to worry about it.
They get a domain specific language that is easy to understand (TT2
scores well here because it hides the differences between scalars,
arrays, hashes and object methods), and hopefully difficult for them to
break.

See this thread for Andy's take on this.

http://www.template-toolkit.org/pipermail/templates/2001-June/001076.html

Secondly, it helps with maintenance  reusability if all your perl code
is in one place, there's less to change and less chance of thiongs going
wrong.

This really helps when the PHBs come along and ask if you can redesign
the pages for a particular client.

Whilst this can be done if you've mixed up perl into your template it
makes it much harder because there is a lot more for the designers to
break (and let's not even mention asp/php/jsp :)

Now I accept that if you are the sole programmer/developer/designer on a
project then it maybe doesn't matter but I have found that it helps me
to work in a separated way, so when they say, as they have, ah, we need
the first two years in this table and the rest in that one it becomes a
presentation issue and not a perl coding issue [1].

HTH,

Simon.

[1] It was really easy to do in a TT2 template as well !

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```
* Niklas Nordebo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:38:44AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say that
really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want found, the
trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is going to go round
killing every peasant in the land to find the one with the treasure. See
also the way diamonds are transported around Hatton Garden (i.e. in
people's pockets, not in securicor vans).

And if you have a rouge stone worth 1500 gold you shouldn't put it in a
chicken while a shady guy is watching, since said shady guy might tell some
feisty adventurers about it for a small fee. Especially if you live in Umar
Hills.

you know that game far to well! ;-)

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```

### Re: Government Websites

```

- Original Message -
From: will [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Government Websites

- Original Message -
From: Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Government Websites

Roger Burton West wrote:
Users will say: Ooh! Shiny!.

You need to get some better users.

That could be a viable business opportunity. A site where businesses could
rent quality users for their software/websites etc. :-)

I just need something in the middle, I can find expert users that do what
they are told and dont break the software, and then I can find complete
idiots that can't even work out how to open the software when its the only
icon on the desktop, its on the startbar and the quicklaunch bar, and in the
program launcher thing on the task bar, and they still can't open it.

I need to be able to rent an idiot who can get into the software but can't
quite remember how to do tasks so that they click and select the wrong thing
so they can break it and i can fix it again rather than doing it the way i
do it which works fine.  There just doesnt seem to be a happy medium any
more. Idiots have got worse and the people in the know have got smarter.

D

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:38:02PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Paul Makepeace wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:33:11AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably?

Me  Andy M. probably, living on the left coast.

You forgot Damian (as had I).

I've never been able to keep track of jetsetting rockstars... Wasn't his
Mayfair penthouse good enough?

Paul

--
Put in earplugs

```

### Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

```
* Niklas Nordebo ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:11:39PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
you know that game far to well! ;-)

Probalby.

While we're on the subject of computer games I recently found Civilization:
Call to power on sale at HMV. Since I didn't like Civ 2 I'd been sceptical,
but it was only five quid so I picked it up, and the let the box lie
unopened for a couple of weeks, than I opened it and started playing last
week and now I'm seriously addicted.

you should play freeciv

64 bytes from 212.78.195.170: icmp_seq=2 ttl=236 time=3009.3 ms
64 bytes from 212.78.195.170: icmp_seq=3 ttl=236 time=3012.4 ms

err maybe you shouldn't ;-)

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```

### Technical Meeting - 21st June

```
Oh... er... it's only three days to the technical meeting and so far I don't
seem to have any talks for it.

I'll write my Perl for the People talk tonight and give that, and I think
that Robin wanted to do something.

There must be others out there who want to practice talks that they'll be
giving at TPC or YAPC::E. Please let me know.

Dave...

--

Don't dream it... be it

```

### Re: e-smith

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:56:15PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:

I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on
the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and
install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling,
file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server.

Bleah.

Whilst it might not be what you're looking for, it is what any number of
small business are crying out for (even if they don't know it yet grin).

Now personally I'd rather hand build a box using FreeBSD but I can appreciate
someone having a go at producing a 'packaged' solution.

Once I have a spare box, I'll probably give e-smith a looksie, just to see
if it can teach me anything.

Neil.
--
Neil C. Ford
Managing Director, Yet Another Computer Solutions Company Limited
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.yacsc.com

```

### Re: e-smith

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:
I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on
the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and
install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling,
file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server.

Friend of mine recently launched http://www.rocksteady.com/

Paul

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:46:25PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote:

I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no!
(ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy
HTML and thy Perl in the same file).

It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application.
So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with
the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT.  Why are
those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for
other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't?

--
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:54:36PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application.

You're missing a word from the end of the sentence, and that's Ilogic.
If you add it you're obviously wrong though...

So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with
the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT.  Why are
those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for
other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't?

TT's toy language is a presentation language, not a programming one.
It's different enough so that you can't easily put too much
programming logic into it, IME at least.

--
Richard Clamp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
so we've got a deadline.
we can do deadlines.

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On 18 Jun 2001, Steve Mynott wrote:

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Template Toolkit
HTML::Mason
Text::Template
HTML::Template
HTML::Embperl

Also Apache::ASP

I did have this crackhead idea a week or two ago about making something
that 'Compiled' HTML to modules with something like a DOM interface (much
like the thing with Enhydra does ) - this of course would not really be
Templating but something more like manipulating the HTML directly through
method calls ...

I wont bore you with the code as its not at all finished.

/J\

```

### Re: e-smith

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:29:31PM +0100, Neil Ford wrote:
Once I have a spare box, I'll probably give e-smith a looksie, just to see
if it can teach me anything.

Well, I can tell you now, from experience that the blackcat power cycler
works wonders, because I remembered (too late) that ipfw's default behaviour
is deny ip from any to any. So something that does the firewalling can
definitely be a good idea. :-)

MBM

--
Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://colondot.net/

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Roger Burton West wrote:

On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:30:24PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Simon Wilcox wrote:
I avoided HTML::Embperl, HTML::Mason  Apache::ASP because they all
embed perl into the template which is a Bad Thing (tm).

Why is that so evil?

I'm willing to be enlightened here.

Separation of code and data - or in this case, layout, content
and logic.

As a reference for this kind of thing one might ( if one can be arsed to
look at Java stuff ) to look at the way the Enhydra thingy does things in
creating classes in directories like :

business  data  presentation  resources

/J\

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:54:36PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:46:25PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote:
I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no!
(ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy
HTML and thy Perl in the same file).
It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application.
So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with
the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT.  Why are
those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for
other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't?

Ohmigod, I'm agreeing with Cantrell on something!!

Despite having written an embedded perl templating system, I'm now very
much in favour of one where the tags are just delimiters as far as possible.
Thus I think things like HTML::Template are actually better than TT2,
precisely because the toy language in TT2 is just as bad as embedding code.

See my point about SQL, as it's related to this.

MBM

--
Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://colondot.net/

```

### Re: Maths Problem

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:29:28AM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:01:05AM +0100, Chris Benson wrote:
Mmmm, so if there are 3 water lilies with circular leaves, what is the
largest they can grow on the surface of a sphere without overlap?

Looks like evenly-spaced around the equator. With only three points,
they'll _have_ to be coplanar by definition. And, of course, a belt
of n points around the equator is even spacing, but doesn't look good...

But that limits the diameter of each to 1/3 the circumference ...
I was sort of thinking that you'd get a larger area by offsetting
them
O O
O
, that doesn't really cut it does it?

I'm going off to cut out some circles and look for a ball ...
--
Chris Benson

```

### Re: Maths Problem

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 11:56:59AM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:29:18AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
Chris Benson wrote:
Mmmm, so if there are 3 water lilies with circular leaves, what
is the largest they can grow on the surface of a sphere without

Well, first off, the circles won't be circles as we know them since
they're not 2D circles but have a 3D component (or they wouldn't be on the
surface of the sphere but rather cutting a slice through it).

Leaves aren't that strong -- they'd flop into curve to fit the sphere :-)

However, I'd imagine that with three such bulgy circles, the best you can do
is space them equally around the equator.

Yes.  However you arrange them they're going to be on a plane, and so to
have them the maximum distance apart you make sure the plane also contains
the centre of the sphere.  It gets interesting for N3

I thought N=4 was the easy one: points of a tetrahedron!
--
Chris Benson

```

### Re: e-smith

```
In lists.community.perlmongers.london, you wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:12:33PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:
I see that the new edtion of Linux Format comes with a copy of e-smith on
the CD. According to the blurb, e-smith is a complete, easy to use and
install server/gateway system that manages mail, firewalling,
file-sharing, prinintg - everything you need from your server.

Friend of mine recently launched http://www.rocksteady.com/

I only just got on this list, and should probably check the archives,
but I wanted to chime in for e-smith.

I work for them, and I chose to work for them because they have a bloody
nice product.  It's a slick little distro, built on lots of Perl, and
it's extensible and modular and geek-friendly under the hood, in ways
that most server appliances or similar distros aren't.

I use it for my home network, and I'm slowly converting lots of my geek
friends to it, and they seem to be pretty happy.  The point is: if you
don't have to spend a day figuring out how to set up your cable modem, you
have more time to hack on whatever it is that actually floats your
boat... in my case, Perl stuff.  (If setting up cable modems under Linux
*is* what floats your boat, then more power to you, but this is not the
case for most people.)

I'm speaking about it at YAPC::Europe but would also be happy to answer
any questions that anyone might have either on-list or privately.

K.

--
Kirrily 'Skud' Robert - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://infotrope.net/
Reality is for those who can't face Science Fiction.

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:24:13PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:54:36PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:46:25PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote:
I'd also like to mention HTML::Mason - Euuu, No, no and thrice no!
(ok, has some nice 'bits' but NO - thou shalt not put thy
HTML and thy Perl in the same file).
It is NOT POSSIBLE to completely divorce presentation/application.
So you end up with all sorts of languages made up to be mixed in with
the presentation - like PHP and the mini-language of TT.  Why are
those OK (I'm thinking specifically of TT - we all know PHP sucks for
other reasons) but plain ol' perl isn't?

Ohmigod, I'm agreeing with Cantrell on something!!

What am I doing wrong? ;-)

Seriously, I agree 100% that you should strive to seperate application
from your presentation as much as possible, but seeing that you can not
do this entirely, you may as well embed perl in your HTML and save
yourself the trouble of inventing a whole new wheel.

You can still stick your business logic elsewhere and have that called
by the perl embedded in the templates.

Despite having written an embedded perl templating system, I'm now very
much in favour of one where the tags are just delimiters as far as possible.
Thus I think things like HTML::Template are actually better than TT2,
precisely because the toy language in TT2 is just as bad as embedding code.

See my point about SQL, as it's related to this.

Think of SQL as being a cross-language extension to the 'host' language
and you'll feel much better about it :-)

--
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it-- Agatha Christie

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:06:40PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

if dha supplies me with a list of cpan ID's and names for NY i'll
do a similar page of NY and include the % of each on both pages

I'll have to go through the CPAN and see who of our group has IDs.  Of
course, there are all those non-london, non-ny mongers who are on the
NY.pm list...

dha, wondering if he gets any credit for Semi::Semicolons or DWIM...

--
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
Free Randal Schwartz!  http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
(ok, maybe not free, but competitively priced!)

```

### Re: early peek at a bit of fun

```
On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:02:01AM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:
From: Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Who holds the distance record? dha, presumably?

Last I heard, we had at least one subscriber currently living in Australia.

Leon, how about a london.pm world map :)

Hm... I should probably work on a dha.pm map...

Let's see, London, St. Louis, Melbourne...

Hm.  *that's* where all that email comes from!

:-)

dha
--
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it.
- Donald Knuth

```

### Re: Templating Solutions

```
Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
It is possible to write embedded perl templates well, but a
lot more difficult than if they are separated out.

How does non-embedded Perl look like, then?

Is Perl the outside layer and basically does '#include navbar.html' at
certain points?

Or is HTML the outside layer and does something like % require
read-database.pl; read; %?

Or what does it look like if they're *not* in the same file?

I have next to no experience with separated code and data (yes, my SQL
statements are also in my Perl source files); I've written toy CGI scripts
(HTML embedded in Perl) and my day job at the moment includes StoryServer
(Tcl embedded in HTML), so I don't think I have much idea of how something
else would work.

Explanations welcome.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

```

### post from Elizabeth Castro's bbs

```

# Subject : I like poo
# Posted By: Sreejayanth
# Date: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 1:45 a.m.
#
# I like poo

Remind me again why you hang out here Dave?

--
Greg McCarrollhttp://217.34.97.146/~gem/

```