the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Jo Walsh


lets kill off the old list before the two get too far out of sync

jo


ps sorry about mail bounces from partyvibe it will be down til next week
:(

-- 
a member of the state51 conspiracy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Re: one liner

2001-01-11 Thread Shevek

On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:

 I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
 printed copies of.
 
 Maybe we should see about costs for getting some of them printed fairly
 nicely and bound.

I think the uni offers such a service here.

--
Shevek
I am the Borg.
sub AUTOLOAD { ($s=$AUTOLOAD)=~s/.*:://; eval qq{ *$AUTOLOAD=$s
?sub {$s*{$s-1}} :sub {1}; }; goto $AUTOLOAD; } print {'4'}; 




Re: one liner

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 12:24:59PM +, Shevek wrote:
 On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
 
  I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
  printed copies of.
  
  Maybe we should see about costs for getting some of them printed fairly
  nicely and bound.
 
 I think the uni offers such a service here.

What about us poor, benighted souls who aren't at a uni? :)



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Leon Brocard

Jo Walsh sent the following bits through the ether:
 
 lets kill off the old list before the two get too far out of sync

Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-)

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... All new improved Brocard, now with Template Toolkit!



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 12:32:46PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
 Jo Walsh sent the following bits through the ether:
  lets kill off the old list before the two get too far out of sync
 Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-)

Yeah, we want our own mailing list server.

And a pony.



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Struan Donald

* at 11/01 12:51 + Michael Stevens said:
 On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 12:32:46PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
  Jo Walsh sent the following bits through the ether:
   lets kill off the old list before the two get too far out of sync
  Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-)
 
 Yeah, we want our own mailing list server.
 
 And a pony.

who needs a pony when we have a camel?

-- 
Struan Donald
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Code Flunky, 365 Plc.
http://www.365corp.com/



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Peter Corlett

In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write:
 Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-)
 Yeah, we want our own mailing list server.

Mmph, it's not that hard to install Majordomo is it? If need be, just give
me the root password and I'll go and set it up...

 And a pony.

It's running Apache already, surely?



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Jo Walsh

  And a pony.
 
 who needs a pony when we have a camel?
 
 
when are we going to see the camel

i would sooner install qmail/ezmlm than mailman
would ppl object?

-- 
a member of the state51 conspiracy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]






Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:16:19PM +, Jo Walsh wrote:
 i would sooner install qmail/ezmlm than mailman
 would ppl object?

I'd rather see exim/mailman but qmail is cool too.

The most important bit is to get *something* working :)

Michael



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Greg Cope

Roger Burton West wrote:
 
 On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:11:45PM +, Peter Corlett wrote:
 
 Mmph, it's not that hard to install Majordomo is it? If need be, just give
 me the root password and I'll go and set it up...
 
 ...and once you've installed Majordomo, _everyone_ has the root
 password...
 
 (Supposedly Mjd 2 is going to be better, RSN.)
 
 Smartlist is good. Mailman is good.
 
 R

ezmlm is better

Greg



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:20:33PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 (Supposedly Mjd 2 is going to be better, RSN.)

IIRC the postgresql mailing list are actually using it, or were. Don't
think that it is done yet, tho.

 Smartlist is good. Mailman is good.

ezmlm and qmail actually seem pretty nice, apart from the usual
bernstein factor.

Michael



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:11:45PM +, Peter Corlett wrote:
 In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write:
  Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-)
  Yeah, we want our own mailing list server.
 
 Mmph, it's not that hard to install Majordomo is it? If need be, just give
 me the root password and I'll go and set it up...

/me has a bone to pick with majordomo.

majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

  Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:27:50PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
 /me has a bone to pick with majordomo.
 majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt

It's doable, you'll just wish you hadn't.

Michael



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:25:26PM +, Greg Cope wrote:

 Roger Burton West wrote:

  Smartlist is good. Mailman is good.
 
 ezmlm is better

Other than its unfortunate reliance on qmail.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

  Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



RE: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread dcross - David Cross

From: Peter Corlett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11 January 2001 13:12

 In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write:
  Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-)
  Yeah, we want our own mailing list server.
 
 Mmph, it's not that hard to install Majordomo is it? If need 
 be, just give me the root password and I'll go and set it up...

We've had this discussion before (maybe in irc or in the pub) and decided
that installing Majordomo would be a bad idea. I thought we'd decided on
mailman as it seems to be the best MLM out there. Yes it's written in
Python, but there's plenty of other software on the box which isn't written
in Perl...

...and besides, there's a rumour that Andy Wardley has a hacked version of
mailman that doesn't have the 'Powered by Python' logos :)

Dave...

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
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system.



From whence cometh www.fnord.demon.co.uk?

2001-01-11 Thread Andy Wardley

Is anyone here responsible for www.fnord.demon.co.uk, or know
someone who is?

It's really only a matter of curiosity[1].  I was drawn there after
last night's Mark Thomas Product on Channel 4 and noticed a cryptic
Perl 3 liner (which I couldn't get to work) prominently placed on a
front page.

  http://www.fnord.demon.co.uk/mt/fifth/

Some time later on the same site I came across a reference to Mark
being a "Meeja Hor" and it rung a London.pm bell.

Anyone?  Class?  Anyone?



A

[1] Although I would like to suggest a version of the site that
doesn't require various plugins.

-- 
Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Signature regenerating.  Please remain seated.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:39:18PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:27:50PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
  /me has a bone to pick with majordomo.
  majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt
 
 It's doable, you'll just wish you hadn't.

It's all working swimingly now.  But I *really* regret redirecting mail
to root to my phone.

Good thing: the error messages were short enough to fit into an SMS
Bad thing: they contained no useful information whatsoever

I Will Not Give In.  I Will Not Install Python.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

  Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: Pubs! (was: RE: Forthcoming Meetings - Summary)

2001-01-11 Thread Greg McCarroll

* dcross - David Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Whilst exploring this area at lunchtime I found a pub called the Elusive
 Camel. 
 I don't know what it's like outside, but further investigation has
 revealed that there are others in Victoria and Waterloo. Has anyone tried
 them? Should we investigate further?

i drank in the elusive camel on occasion near victoria, its ok, its
an office crowd with a wicker chair style deco, i get the feeling
however they wouldn't like 20 drunk geeks - not quite cool enough
if you know what i mean

its the type of pub that turns into some peoples idea of hell when it
is office party season


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Mark Rogaski

An entity claiming to be David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: 
: majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt
: 

With a virtual user table under Sendmail, I would imagine it's not _that_
bad.

Mark

-- 
Mark Rogaski  | "I've said this before but I'll say it again:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Smashing Pumpkins IS REO Speedwagon."
http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo |  -- Steve Albini
__END__   |

 PGP signature


RE: From whence cometh www.fnord.demon.co.uk?

2001-01-11 Thread dcross - David Cross

From: Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 11 January 2001 13:57

 Is anyone here responsible for www.fnord.demon.co.uk, or know
 someone who is?

I used to hang around with the MTCP groupies, but haven't spoken to any of
them for some time. You might get more information from the
slightly-more-official http://www.mtcp.co.uk or the mailing list
http://www.mtcp.co.uk/online/list/join.html.

 It's really only a matter of curiosity[1].  I was drawn there after
 last night's Mark Thomas Product on Channel 4 and noticed a cryptic
 Perl 3 liner (which I couldn't get to work) prominently placed on a
 front page.
 
   http://www.fnord.demon.co.uk/mt/fifth/
 
 Some time later on the same site I came across a reference to Mark
 being a "Meeja Hor" and it rung a London.pm bell.

The Mark Thomas usage came first. A couple of years ago, he wore t-shirts
with weird slogans on for each show. A couple of them were 'Meeja Hor' and
'Mor Hor'. The first was obviously ripe for appropriation and lengthening (a
kind of "Embrace and Extend").
 
 [1] Although I would like to suggest a version of the site that
 doesn't require various plugins.

And, especially, a version that _doesn't_ insist on playing horrible midi
files at you on every page :(

Dave...

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:51:15PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
 Good thing: the error messages were short enough to fit into an SMS
 Bad thing: they contained no useful information whatsoever
 I Will Not Give In.  I Will Not Install Python.

I actually kinda like python, from the little I've played with it.

Michael



Re: From whence cometh www.fnord.demon.co.uk?

2001-01-11 Thread Andy Wardley

On Jan 11,  2:10pm, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 The Mark Thomas usage came first. A couple of years ago, he wore t-shirts
 with weird slogans on for each show. A couple of them were 'Meeja Hor' and
 'Mor Hor'. The first was obviously ripe for appropriation and lengthening (a
 kind of "Embrace and Extend").

I thought that might be the case.  A quick google only came up with a
couple of references, mostly related to MT.

  [1] Although I would like to suggest a version of the site that
  doesn't require various plugins.

 And, especially, a version that _doesn't_ insist on playing horrible midi
 files at you on every page :(

My annoyance is the pop-up window appearing on every page telling me to go
and install a plugin so that it can play horrible midi files at me on
every page.

I half heartedly contemplated installing the plugin, but it turns out
that I need to register with AOL/Netscape before I can download it.
And alas, the user name "FuckOffBastard" has already been taken. :-(


A

-- 
Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Signature regenerating.  Please remain seated.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/



Re: From whence cometh www.fnord.demon.co.uk?

2001-01-11 Thread Robin Houston

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:56:32PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
 ... a cryptic Perl 3 liner (which I couldn't get to work) ...

See http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/rsa/ for an explanation
of that particular cryptic 3-liner  :-)

 .robin.

-- 
Santa, oscillate my metallic soatnas!



Re: From whence cometh www.fnord.demon.co.uk?

2001-01-11 Thread Andy Wardley

On Jan 11,  3:54pm, Robin Houston wrote:
 See http://www.cypherspace.org/~adam/rsa/ for an explanation
 of that particular cryptic 3-liner  :-)

D'Oh!  I really could have guessed that if I bothered to engage my brain!

Curiosity satiated.  Ta.

A


-- 
Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Signature regenerating.  Please remain seated.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/



Re: one liner

2001-01-11 Thread Tony Bowden

On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 07:38:04PM +, Dave Cross wrote:
  Oh, and Amazon.com have the Learning Tk book at 90% off at the minute
  if anyone's interested ..
 That'll explain the increase in sales that Nat noted the other day then :)

Well, I expected one of their "Oops, we made a pricing error, so we can't
sell you the large quantity of the book you requested, but hey, we're nice
people, so we'll let you have one of them cheap instead" emails.

But they claim to have shipped them all. At 90% off. Which I like.

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
the woods are lovely, dark, and deep, but I have promises to keep
-



For all you nu meeja types

2001-01-11 Thread Jonathan Peterson

Found on UKNM mu meeja marketing list - credit to Tim Hayward for original
post, credit to me for reformatting to 72 cols.

-

No, hang about... I'm right up for it.


Let's start a whip round now for all those poor bastards who are going
to end up cannon fodder in the .Com Wars in the next year.

I reckon a 20ft high sculpture rising from the ruins of 'The Foundry'.
Laser cut from pure silicon and looking something like that monumental
bugger in Russia - The Factory Worker and the Collective Farm Girl. The
plinth will be made entirely of leased blueberry Imacs compressed into
an enormous slab under staggering heat and pressure. The male figure
will be resplendent in an ironic Mullet, a grey outfit looking not
unlike the paper jammies they give you during ECT and a kind of highly
complex trainer/sandal combination that defies definition anywhere
outside of a Tokyo teenager's bedroom. He'll, of course, be standing
next to a vintage BMX bike which, were he ever to actually ride it,
would make him look like one of Billy Smart's chimps.

His companion will have a Hoxton helmet, a sort of tabard like frock
made of two pieces of thick felt cut to shape with round ended scissors
and Copydexed around the edges (Joseph Beuys meets Blue Peter - Remember
when Valerie used to say 'It will cost a fraction of what it would in
the shops and it's every bit as good' - It was a lie then and it's a lie
now) some species of knitted, striped tights that are faintly redolent
of leg irons and footwear of such abiding ugliness that a mere glimpse
can throw you right off your Miso Blackened Cod Fillet.

Both will gaze idealistically toward the City with a look that speaks an
enlightened combination of greed, ignorance, arrogance and naiivety.

She'll hold the symbolic keys of their leased office, leased loft,
leased Audi TT whilst he carries aloft an everlasting flame in the form
of a burning sheaf of stock options








Re: For all you nu meeja types

2001-01-11 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Jonathan Peterson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Found on UKNM mu meeja marketing list - credit to Tim Hayward for original
 post, credit to me for reformatting to 72 cols.
 

that was a truly beautiful image *sob*, however here's the good news 

 ^
/ \
|  \
 WE ARE  ---+  /\
  HERE  |  | \
|  /
 ^  * |
/ \  /
   -   \ |
  / \   / 
 -   \  |   
/ \/
   -
  / 
 -  
/   


[ if the above looks doesn't come out right go get yourself a decent
  mailer, i recommend mutt ]

the above is the technology adoption/prophitability curve that occurs
in all technology areas, you have an initial boom, then it goes bust.
then you have a very very steep and difficult period where the
technology gets hard ( visual basic / javascript programmers need
not apply ). but the actually maturity of the market, product and 
profitability is better.

its basically a case of lessons learnt and doing things right in
a disciplined fashion. 

greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Technical Meeting Agenda

2001-01-11 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 XML::Schema - Andy
 

can we finish this with some sort of SIG meeting on XML::Scheme
seeing as its all just ideas in the fevoured mind of Mr Wardley
so far, i'm sure there are the usual suspect who'd like to vent
their own opinions
 
 Hopefully it'll all be over by 9:30 and we can all bugger off to the
 nearest hostelry.

ack, if i'm going to speak i'll have to allow myself a one beer
ration


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread David H. Adler

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:07:20PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:

 In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing
 list manager.

So why haven't you reimplemented it in perl?  :)

dha

-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
Good marriages work this way too, by the way.  I love my wife
differently than I did at the beginning, but I certainly don't love
her any less.- Larry Wall



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:07:20PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
 
  In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing
  list manager.
 
 So why haven't you reimplemented it in perl?  :)
 

previous_comment delivery="gentle" 

because we are the perl community, all we ever do is talk or if you are
lucky work on personal projects

/previous_comment

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread David Hodgkinson

"David H. Adler" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:07:20PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
 
  In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing
  list manager.
 
 So why haven't you reimplemented it in perl?  :)

As an XML and perl based application server?

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Paul Makepeace

From: "Andy Wardley" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing
 list manager.

Yes it is. Majordomo is the wrong choice for the 21st century.

Once again I'll offer to run the list on euro.pm.org but if y'all'd rather
debate stuff go ahead :-)

Paul




XML::Schema, YAPC::Europe, mod_perl, Camel Visit, !RANT!

2001-01-11 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 "David H. Adler" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:07:20PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
  
   In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing
   list manager.
  
  So why haven't you reimplemented it in perl?  :)
 
 As an XML and perl based application server?
 

don't you go thinking about that Dave, your pencilled in to delivering
this mod_perl solutions website you spoke about perviously ;-)

it seems to me at the last technical meeting we had a lot of enthusiasm
for this, and i'd guess we'll have a lot of enthusiasm for the XML::Schema
stuff this time - what we need to do is to form SIG's of london.pm to
drive these project forward

so as far as i see it - we have the following projects to be carried out
by london.pm and others ...

Caml (i'll leave that typo as it might get mjd excited) Visit  - David Cross
Completion of account creation for initial donators, 
 establishment of a administration committee and setting
 criteria for new donators - Jo + D.Cross
The Mod Perl Evangelist Site   - Dave Hodge..
The Final YAPC::Europe 2000 Site   - me + LB + JP

i'm pretty sure that these are the tasks we have at the minute as a 
group/community

time_out

ok the above seem's pretty anal but i get the feeling we need to 
add a bit of `` `` project management '' '' [1] to the group for 
the benefit of Perl - and this is a subject i'd love to see a
thread on

/time_out

ok yes i know, this is whole mail has probably been purely been caused by
my lower alchohol levels for january, but i can't help it - goddamnit i
love perl and i love london.pm and i want london.pm to work to help perl

-greg

[1] double double quotes to indicate how much removed this is from the 
crap some of us suffer at work

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Paul Makepeace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 From: "Andy Wardley" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing
  list manager.
 
 Yes it is. Majordomo is the wrong choice for the 21st century.
 
 Once again I'll offer to run the list on euro.pm.org but if y'all'd rather
 debate stuff go ahead :-)


speaking from a personal opinion 

its a kind offer Paul, but it really should be run off the london server
(currently) penderel.state51.co.uk (thanks state51!) - we've invested
in the beatie and it would be a shame to see it not being used

for instance i've logged on and seen it with 0% CPU usage, why don't
we run at least the distributed net client on it - well the reason
is we need organisation of the running of it, jo's deserves a 
sainthood (or the female version of it) for what she has done so far
but we need to organise it properly - anyway see the other mail i sent
recently

thanks again for the offer!

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Paul Makepeace

From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Exactly.  I just can't handle bernsteinisms when there are good
alternatives
 available - exim (easy), postfix (secure), mailman.  I can only put up with
 his oddities when the alternative is worse.  djbdns vs bind.

Totally agreed. FWIW, exim + mailman is a slick, effective solution.

# apt-get install mailman

and implementing http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman.html

Paul




Re: XML::Schema, YAPC::Europe, mod_perl, Camel Visit, !RANT!

2001-01-11 Thread Neil Ford

[snip]

so as far as i see it - we have the following projects to be carried out
by london.pm and others ...

Caml (i'll leave that typo as it might get mjd excited) Visit  - David Cross
Completion of account creation for initial donators,
  establishment of a administration committee and setting
  criteria for new donators - Jo + D.Cross
The Mod Perl Evangelist Site   - Dave Hodge..
The Final YAPC::Europe 2000 Site   - me + LB + JP

So you won't be needing Natalie's help with the website then? Someone 
perhaps ought to tell her before she does much more work trying to 
get the schedules together.

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org