Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Roger Burton West

On or about Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:08:29PM +, Piers Cawley typed:

And if the Big Cheese does hand down decisions that override the
Minion then the contract between developer and client should stipulate
that the client pays for the wasted time.

Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my
experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some
excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to
annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
in customer relations than I've ever seen - and if that firmness were
present, we wouldn't need XP anyway...

Roger



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Mark Fowler

Roger claimed that:

 This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
 in customer relations than I've ever seen - and if that firmness were
 present, we wouldn't need XP anyway...

One of the main problems with full disclosure with the client is that it
can only ever work when you've only got one client.  In my job you tend to
be working on more than one project at any given time;  I certainly don't
think I'd like to be the one to tell the client 'sorry this is late, but
there was this unexpected problem with some work we were doing for another
client and it took up all our time'.

Later.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








Damian/TPC Papers

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Cross

I see that in Damian's latest diary entry (you _are_ reading Damian's
diary I assume) he talks about the ridiculous number[1] of papers, talks
and tutorials that he's proposing to give at TPC5.

The piece also seems to act as an advert to encourage other people to
submit proposals to the conference committee. This, together with Nat's
recent posting on the same subject and the extension to the submission
dates lead me to beleive that the committee members haven't had as many 
submissions yet as they might have liked. This would therefore seem to
be a good time to get your proposals in. It would be nice to see a very
strong speaking presence from london.pm at the conference.

Damian's article is at:

http://www.yetanother.org/damian/diary_January_2001.html#day_19

Dave...

[1] We certainly seem to be getting our money's worth out of him :)  



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread James O'Sullivan

On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
  Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
  originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my
  experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some
  excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to
  annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
 
 I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the
 issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific
 you attempt to be.


All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control
process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that
specific job.

A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what
the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the
project timeline.  This will need to be read and physically signed off by
the client before any work is undertaken.

This, in theory, should make the client think whether they really need
this "small change" or if it can wait until a later date.  It also gives
you some ammo if the client changes their mind as there should be no
ambiguity.

--
James





Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Mark Fowler

On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Leon Brocard wrote:
 Dave Mee sent the following bits through the ether:
  One of the best solutions I've come accross to this problem is to take an
  iterative approach to development.
 
 Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day /
 week you have changed something and can show it to the client
 again. This way the client really understands what he really wants.

This even works well if you are working on projects for yourself.  It's a
very good way of maintaining focus and not going off on tangents when
you're programming.

Later.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Cross

At Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:42:46 +, Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dave Mee sent the following bits through the ether:
 
  One of the best solutions I've come accross to this problem is to 
  take an
  iterative approach to development.
 
 Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day /
 week you have changed something and can show it to the client
 again. This way the client really understands what he really wants.

And if you don't want to buy the XP books, but want to know more...

http://www.extremeprogramming.org/

Dave...



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Simon Wistow

Andy Wardley wrote:

 Having said that, I do very little "real" work at work, instead
 spending my time reading/writing email, chatting to people, playing
 table tennis, having meetings, and doing other brain dead tasks.

I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my
time. 

I mean I *know* I can pull out the stops and work my arse off for
extended periods of time but I can't seem to get myself to get into work
at 9:30am work till lunch, 45 mins having a sandwich then work till
5:30-6:00pm and still be productive. In fact now I don't think I could
do it at all.  But I get my work done and people seem to be happy with
the quality and how fats it gets delivered so ... shrugs



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:26:18AM +, James O'Sullivan wrote:
 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
  On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
   Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
   originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my
   experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some
   excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to
   annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
  
  I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the
  issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific
  you attempt to be.
 
 
 All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control
 process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that
 specific job.
 
 A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what
 the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the
 project timeline.  This will need to be read and physically signed off by
 the client before any work is undertaken.

a) you need to be able to persuade management this is a good idea

b) you need to get someone writing specs who is actually able to be specific.
And you need to have some way of dealing with a client who will refuse to
pay until you implement something that they say is contained within the
spec, and you don't. Despite the fact you're both reading the same spec.

From memories of my last job, both of these can be a problem.

Michael



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Leon Brocard

Mark Fowler sent the following bits through the ether:

 Two points:

Picky, picky. Fine. I'd say that of the bits I've tested, I've found
that continuous testing is a very important part. Writing the tests
before the code is cool too. But you know this already ;-)

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... For Sale: Slightly used message. Enquire within



Re: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?

2001-01-22 Thread Robert Shiels

 So who's bankrolling the van and who wants to be BA?

 Neil.
 (whose tounge is ever so slightly on his cheek!)
 --
Sorry, but I can't resist pointing out that this amusing misspelling. I
guess I'd pronounce this a bit like lounge. Tongue is a pretty stupid way to
spell it anyway, tung would be better.

Now back to your regular (extreme) programming.

/Robert




Re: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?

2001-01-22 Thread Greg Cope

Neil Ford wrote:
 
 
 The "A-Team" - scenario is one in which a team goes in to rescue a failing
 project, or go in and retune/redesign an existing project that works but has
 become a victim of its own success.  Think of this work as bespoke
 enhancements.
 
 That just has me conjering up images of turning up at a client site
 in a big black van (screeching tyres obligatory) and either leaping
 out laptops in hand or just unrollong some CAT5 and plugging into
 their network :-)
 
 So who's bankrolling the van and who wants to be BA?

lol - monday's been c*** so far (Linx rooter down apparently - sounds
like something off an excuse sheet).

Men in black theme - we must all have black suits - dark glasses
avliable from Macy D's soon, and we can get a clapped out van from BT
for next to nothing 

Greg 


 
 Neil.
 (whose tounge is ever so slightly on his cheek!)
 --
 Neil C. Ford
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.binky.ourshack.org



No Subject

2001-01-22 Thread Greg McCarroll


is it still 12:30 at the new world today?

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



RE:

2001-01-22 Thread Jonathan Peterson

 is it still 12:30 at the new world today?

My God, they're trapped in a time hole! It's been 12.30 here for years. Get
back to the Tardis, quick!




Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Steve Mynott

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, you wrote:
 
  Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day /
  week you have changed something and can show it to the client
  again. This way the client really understands what he really wants.
 
 wow ... "a client that understands what they want"  ... Mr Brocard,
 for gods sake WALK to the meeting, DO NOT drive. I have no idea what
 you're taking but I want some .. do you get to see little blue spacemen
 too ;))

Further to this most clients aren't even interested in understanding
what they want (that's _your_ job).

They just _want_ it.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

imagination is more important than knowledge. -- albert einstein



Re:

2001-01-22 Thread Neil Ford

is it still 12:30 at the new world today?

That does indeed seem to be the plan.

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Steve Mynott

Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my
 time. 

There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of results come from
20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter).

No need to feel guilty since this is the way things are.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
-- philip k. dick



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  2. I first heard about building at the end of the day in Brooke's
 Mythical Man Month.

Continuous integration and smoke testing. Oh yes.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The overiding thing should be 'make this the very best company to work
 for AND the very best company to have work done by' A1 bleeding edge code
 written by the planets happiest programmers ... sounds like a good recipe
 to me. 

Not sure about the bleeding edge part, but certainly "using the
highest productivity techniques known to man" would certainly rank
high up there.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 and this template toolit thing rocks dunnit .. (now I have the hang of it
 .. sorta)

It is the rockingest thing I've rocked to since the last one.


-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Men in black theme - we must all have black suits - dark glasses
 avliable from Macy D's soon, and we can get a clapped out van from BT
 for next to nothing 

Don't forget the welding gear.

Actually, I'm more for the Ghostbusters theme: boiler suits, handhled
nuclear weapons, a disused fire station and an ambulance.


-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Robert Shiels



 Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my
  time.

 There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of results come from
 20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter).


Often, when I do something that I consider really easy and spend little
effort on it, I get lots of really good feedback. Alternatively if I spend
weeks on a trickey problem, no one says anything. This seems like a similar
rule.

C'est la vie.

/Robert




RE: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Jonathan Peterson

  There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of
 results come from
  20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter).
 

 Often, when I do something that I consider really easy and
 spend little
 effort on it, I get lots of really good feedback.

Glad I'm not the only one. I spend three days futzing around unable to get
stuck into a problem, and then eventually manage a decent half days work to
get it done before the deadline. Then, while I'm worrying about having
wasted 2 1/2 days someone comes and says what a good document it was. I
don't get it.

I wouldn't mind if it weren't for the way other people in the office seem to
beaver away steadily.




Lunch

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Hodgkinson


Lunch was fabulous if only to hear Cantrell say: "this is nice, what
the hell is it?" (or something).

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Leftover ORA bumpf finds good home

2001-01-22 Thread DJ Adams

evidence:

http://www.pipetree.com/~dj/nr.pm/jan01/

:-)

dj



Re: Lunch

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Cross

At 22 Jan 2001 12:18:05 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Lunch was fabulous if only to hear Cantrell say: "this is nice, what
 the hell is it?" (or something).

Any chance of someone posting a summary of the discussion?

Dave...



Re: Lunch

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Any chance of someone posting a summary of the discussion?

"Three bowls of noodle soup, some of those crab things on a stick, one
each of the ho fun..."


-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Lunch

2001-01-22 Thread David Cantrell

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 09:18:09AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:

 Any chance of someone posting a summary of the discussion?

pdcawley:  talk talk take charge talk bully us into having a clue
dcantrell: is there any tea left?
food:  wriggle, but in a nice-tasting way

NB: :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

  This is nice.  Any idea what body-part it is?



[OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread DJ Adams

Hi folks

Am I going mad or is there no way I can start my fav client program
PuTTY and specify a saved 'session' directly with a switch?

(i.e. I can specify a hostname, but I _want_ to specify a session
name - to have my colours / fonts etc)

cheers
dj



Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread Simon_Wilcox


I make a shortcut and then put something like this in the Target field in
Properties.

"C:\Program Files\Putty\putty.exe" @SessionName

HTH,

Simon.







Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

   From   DJ Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Date   22
January 2001


To  
London PM [EMAIL PROTECTED]Time  15:32 



  Copy to (bcc: Simon Wilcox/BASE/WilliamsLea)



  Bcc Simon Wilcox/BASE/WilliamsLea



  Fax to



  Subject   [OT] Putty invocation





Hi folks

Am I going mad or is there no way I can start my fav client program
PuTTY and specify a saved 'session' directly with a switch?

(i.e. I can specify a hostname, but I _want_ to specify a session
name - to have my colours / fonts etc)

cheers
dj











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Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread DJ Adams

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:40:48PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 "C:\Program Files\Putty\putty.exe" @SessionName

wow - excellent. Thanks. I don't think I would have come upon '@' in 
my guessing ;-)

cheers
dj



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Andy Wardley

On Jan 22,  3:33pm, Andy Wardley wrote:
 Please consider yourself emailed.

Damn, damn, damn!

OK, it was my stupid mistake that I didn't check the headers before I
clicked send, but I can't help thinking that the default Reply-to
header should be to the sender, not the entire group.

And I also note that this was originally sent to the defunct list (at least
I think this is the defunct list???), so I've changed the To: header.

So without wishing to start another holy war, is it possible to change
the mailing list configuration to have a more sensible default Reply-to?

And Dave, if you're reading this please add me to the conslutancy
list.


A


-- 
Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Signature regenerating.  Please remain seated.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:52:08PM +, DJ Adams wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:47:03PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
  So without wishing to start another holy war, is it possible to change
 too late ;)
  the mailing list configuration to have a more sensible default Reply-to?
 No no! Please no!

holy war
Why surely the most sensible reply-to is no reply-to at all...
/holy war



Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:32:58PM +, DJ Adams wrote:
 Hi folks
 Am I going mad or is there no way I can start my fav client program
 PuTTY and specify a saved 'session' directly with a switch?
 (i.e. I can specify a hostname, but I _want_ to specify a session
 name - to have my colours / fonts etc)

And does anyone know how to get putty to save settings like they key
for backspace, etc, rather than my having to set them every time I start
it?

Michael



Conslutency Location

2001-01-22 Thread Andy Wardley

On Jan 21,  1:20pm, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 potential london clients will be put off dealing with a company
 not in london

Surely you jest, sir!

What about the M3/M4 corridor, otherwise known as "Silicon Alley"?
What about places like Stockley Park (next to Heathrow), or the
Surrey Research Park (where we're based, just a few doors down from
Red Hat UK), just to name two off the top of my head?

Are all those huge IT companies based in places like Bracknell (archetypal
Silicon Alley town, but butt ugly), like Oracle, ICL/Fujitsu, Informix,
etc., etc., not doing business with anyone else because they're not based
in London?  I think not.

Anyway, the solution is simple.  We have a London office and a Guildford
office.  The former is convenient for people in London, the latter
convenient for both airports, M3, M4, M25, Brighton, and me! :-)=

We give everyone a nice laptop and have desks with monitors, keyboards
and telephones in the offices.  They can work in one or other place,
depending on where they are, what they're doing and/or who they're
currently working with in terms of team members and/or clients.


A

-- 
Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Signature regenerating.  Please remain seated.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Simon Wistow

Andy Wardley wrote:

 So without wishing to start another holy war, is it possible to change
 the mailing list configuration to have a more sensible default Reply-to?

rant
I have arguments with Leon about this. He usually quotes 'Reply To
munging considered harmful'
(http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html) but as I keep trying to
point out to him this document is bollocks.

The main statemests it makes are ...

1) It violates the principle of minimal munging. 
Well, can't argue against that. Although I think the uses outway the
principle.

2) It provides no benefit to the user of a reasonable mailer. 
What mailer? I use Netscape which amkes it a pain in the arse. But
Netscape isn't a decent mailer you'll say. Ok. Pine. Pine has, IIRC a
Reply and a 'Reply To All' capability. I believe Mutt is the same? How
does non munging help here?  

3) It limits a subscriber's freedom to choose how he or she will direct
a response. 
Bollocks. 

4) It actually reduces functionality for the user of a reasonable
mailer. 
Bollocks.

5) It removes important information, which can make it impossible to get
back to the message sender. 
Bollocks.

6) It penalizes the person with a reasonable mailer in order to coddle
those running brain-dead software. 
What mailer? Put it this way. How many times are you replying to a list
and you actually want to reply to a person individually. 1 in 10? 1 in
50? So non-mungin helps in those cases. Whereas munging helps in the
other 9 or 49 depednign on how concillitory you're being.

7) It violates the principle of least work because complicates the
procedure for replying to messages. 
See above.

8) It violates the principle of least surprise because it changes the
way a mailer works. 
Not true. You are in genrral reply-ing to the list. Not to the
individual person. 

9) It violates the principle of least damage, and it encourages a
failure mode that can be extremely embarrassing -- or worse. 
Hmmm. Fair enough I suppose. But more often I've replied to a mail and
then gone back to repost it to the list.

10) Your subscribers don't want you to do it. Or, at least the ones who
have bothered to read the docs for their mailer don't want you to do it. 
Subjective you honour. The prosecution is leading. 
/rant



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Struan Donald

* at 22/01 16:22 + Simon Wistow said:
 Andy Wardley wrote:
 
  So without wishing to start another holy war, is it possible to change
  the mailing list configuration to have a more sensible default Reply-to?
 
 rant
 I have arguments with Leon about this. He usually quotes 'Reply To
 munging considered harmful'
 (http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html) but as I keep trying to
 point out to him this document is bollocks.
 
 The main statemests it makes are ...
 
snip
 
 2) It provides no benefit to the user of a reasonable mailer. 
 What mailer? I use Netscape which amkes it a pain in the arse. But
 Netscape isn't a decent mailer you'll say. Ok. Pine. Pine has, IIRC a
 Reply and a 'Reply To All' capability. I believe Mutt is the same? How
 does non munging help here?  

actually mutt has cool mailing list functions in that you can define a
mailing list  in the config and then l (or L, i forget) replies to the
list rather than the person.

not that i want this to degenerate into a mail client holy war :)

struan



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Wistow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Andy Wardley wrote:
 
  So without wishing to start another holy war, is it possible to change
  the mailing list configuration to have a more sensible default Reply-to?
 
 rant
 I have arguments with Leon about this. He usually quotes 'Reply To
 munging considered harmful'
 (http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html) but as I keep trying to
 point out to him this document is bollocks.
 
 The main statemests it makes are ...
 

i'm ignoring all your points 

reply-to having the address of the sender is the right thing,

it means when you reply to a message you reply to author of
that message, when you reply-all you reply to all

its just the right thing

so there 




Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Wistow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  reply-to having the address of the sender is the right thing,
  
  it means when you reply to a message you reply to author of
  that message, when you reply-all you reply to all
 
 No. When you reply-all it replies to the sender *AND* the list. So the
 sender gets two copies of everything. Which is just fricking irritating
 *AND* a waste of bandwidth.

la la la la *has hands over ears* i cant here you, la la la la

 Yes I could have a procmail rule to delete duplicate message IDs but
 some places I work (like here) I can't use procmail. 

i can and do

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread Robert Shiels

 And does anyone know how to get putty to save settings like they key
 for backspace, etc, rather than my having to set them every time I start
 it?

Do you mean setting the backspace to Control-H in the keyboard tab isn't
working, or are there other esoteric things you want to set?

/Robert




Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Struan Donald

* at 22/01 16:33 + Greg McCarroll said:
 * Struan Donald ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  actually mutt has cool mailing list functions in that you can define a
  mailing list  in the config and then l (or L, i forget) replies to the
  list rather than the person.
  
  not that i want this to degenerate into a mail client holy war :)
  
 
 war implies a large struggle, this would be more like a 5 second
 knockout - everyone knows mutt is the one true mail client

well yes but some people are stubborn, plus there's always the school
of thought that everyting should be done from within emacs...

struan



Munging Reply-To

2001-01-22 Thread Andy Wardley

On Jan 22,  4:26pm, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 reply-to having the address of the sender is the right thing,
[...]
 its just the right thing

Nail meets hammer.  thwack/

If I explicitly set the Reply-To: in a message posted to the list then
the software is munging it to set it to reply to the list.  Therefore,
the current behaviour is wrong, even according to the "Munging Reply-To
considered harmful" arguments (which we don't necessarily accept as
valid).




A


-- 
Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Signature regenerating.  Please remain seated.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread DJ Adams

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 04:26:32PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 reply-to having the address of the sender is the right thing,
 
 it means when you reply to a message you reply to author of
 that message, when you reply-all you reply to all

trying...to...resist...AARGH!

No no no!

You're on a mailing list because you're corresponding with the group as a
while so you want ot reply to the group as a whole too. 

Mailing list parallel in IRC:

type something (i.e. path of least resistance) : goes to channel
/dcc chat (extra effort) : goes to individual

having a reply-to sender as default for a mailing list is very rude as
you're presuming the 'default' exclusion of the very collective you're
conversing with.

If you want to make an aside to the person who actually posted something,
then by all means change the To: to their email address.

:-)

DJ
who thinks people who refer to the "...Considered Harmful" doc are guilty of 
cargo-cult meme-mongering.

P.S. nice to come back to the list on a juicy non-Perl (!) topic ;-)



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread DJ Adams

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 04:33:33PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  
 
 war implies a large struggle, this would be more like a 5 second
 knockout - everyone knows mutt is the one true mail client

Now _that_ is something I can agree with g

dj
happy just to have realised he'll be able to make next week's meet



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 04:33:34PM +, Simon Wistow wrote:
 Greg McCarroll wrote:
  reply-to having the address of the sender is the right thing,
  it means when you reply to a message you reply to author of
  that message, when you reply-all you reply to all
 No. When you reply-all it replies to the sender *AND* the list. So the
 sender gets two copies of everything. Which is just fricking irritating
 *AND* a waste of bandwidth.

So you use list-reply like sensible people.

Or you actually take the time to pay attention to who you're sending
the message to.

Aargh. help! i'm being drawn in!

Michael



Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 04:33:11PM -, Robert Shiels wrote:
  And does anyone know how to get putty to save settings like they key
  for backspace, etc, rather than my having to set them every time I start
  it?
 Do you mean setting the backspace to Control-H in the keyboard tab isn't
 working, or are there other esoteric things you want to set?

The backspace-ctrl-h. I can set it once in putty, and it works, but if I
quit putty and restart, new sessions don't get it.

Michael



Re: Munging Reply-To

2001-01-22 Thread Robin Houston

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 05:10:57PM +, alex wrote:

 there is only one right way, and that's to give people the choice.
 
 that's what i do, and in my experience the majority prefer to have their
 reply-to's munged on discussive lists such as this one.

I wonder whether that's really true, or if it's simply that
most people don't bother to change from the default because
they're not that interested?

If the default was an unmunged (void) and (void-munged) was
also available for the munging fanatics, which would be the
majority then?

Don't know, but wondering...

 .robin.



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Robert Shiels

 
 i'm ignoring all your points 
 
 reply-to having the address of the sender is the right thing,
 
 it means when you reply to a message you reply to author of
 that message, when you reply-all you reply to all
 
 its just the right thing
 
 so there 

Define sender then?  the mailing list is the sender IMO (no H :-)

/Robert




Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread Robert Shiels

 On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 04:33:11PM -, Robert Shiels wrote:
   And does anyone know how to get putty to save settings like they key
   for backspace, etc, rather than my having to set them every time I
start
   it?
  Do you mean setting the backspace to Control-H in the keyboard tab isn't
  working, or are there other esoteric things you want to set?

 The backspace-ctrl-h. I can set it once in putty, and it works, but if I
 quit putty and restart, new sessions don't get it.

You need to change it individually for each session that you save as it's
not a global thing. I've got it working here.

/Robert




Re: Hardware Upgrade Fund

2001-01-22 Thread Philip Newton

alex wrote:
 I'd prefer to do it the other way round if you don't mind, and say you
 have just one month to send a cheque for 50 pounds made out 
 to C A McLean [1] to state51, 8 rhoda street, bethnal green, e2 7ef ,
 or brought along to the next social or technical meeting.

Hm, random question -- is penderal just for London.pm members or might it
conceivably be opened to a wider public? For example, what about honourary
London.pm members such as dha?

To come to the point, I might be interested in buying a share since I don't
really have a decent machine anywhere else besides a shell account somewhere
in California. And colocating a machine of my own seems a bit costly to me
at the moment. However, I can imagine you might be wanting to keep penderel
a London thingy, which is why I thought I'd ask.

Cheers,
Philip



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Piers Cawley

"James O'Sullivan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
  On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
   Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
   originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my
   experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some
   excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to
   annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
  
  I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the
  issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific
  you attempt to be.
 
 
 All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control
 process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that
 specific job.
 
 A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what
 the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the
 project timeline.  This will need to be read and physically signed off by
 the client before any work is undertaken.
 
 This, in theory, should make the client think whether they really need
 this "small change" or if it can wait until a later date.  It also gives
 you some ammo if the client changes their mind as there should be no
 ambiguity.

The XP approach to this goes something like:

Client: We want this. 
Team: Write it on a card. 
Client: Writes There you go. 
Team: This will take 'm' days to implement. We have n  m days available
  in this iteration, do you want this in this iteration.

or

Team: This will take m days to implement. We have n  m days in this
  iteration. If this goes in, which ones to we take out?

And the client makes the decision.

-- 
Piers




Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Piers Cawley

Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:26:18AM +, James O'Sullivan wrote:
  On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
   On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my
experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some
excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to
annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
   
   I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the
   issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific
   you attempt to be.
  
  
  All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control
  process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that
  specific job.
  
  A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what
  the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the
  project timeline.  This will need to be read and physically signed off by
  the client before any work is undertaken.
 
 a) you need to be able to persuade management this is a good idea
 
 b) you need to get someone writing specs who is actually able to be specific.
 And you need to have some way of dealing with a client who will
 refuse to pay until you implement something that they say is
 contained within the spec, and you don't. Despite the fact you're
 both reading the same spec.

Keep the specs/stories simple. If the team is unsure of what a story
means then they need to go back to the client for clarification, and
possibly to have the requirement broken down into simpler bits. As
time passes in the project, the client will get better at writing
requirements. And we'll get better at estimating how long they'll take
to implement.

-- 
Piers




Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, you wrote:
 
  Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day /
  week you have changed something and can show it to the client
  again. This way the client really understands what he really wants.
 
 wow ... "a client that understands what they want"  ... Mr Brocard,
 for gods sake WALK to the meeting, DO NOT drive. I have no idea what
 you're taking but I want some .. do you get to see little blue spacemen
 too ;))
 
 nah seriously.. if XP can really achieve this then great .. I hope
 it can .. infact I almost believe it can ... a little voice in my
 head keeps saying 'please let this be true' .. but sometimes when
 people come up with such abstract ideas as 'a client that
 understands what they want' I do begin to wonder if its not pushing
 it a bit far ;))

One of the things that I love about the iterative approach of XP is
that during the process the client begins to learn exactly what she
wants, and is taught to express that by the team. The idea is to
create genuine collaboration.

-- 
Piers




Re: Lunch

2001-01-22 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 09:18:09AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 
  Any chance of someone posting a summary of the discussion?
 
 pdcawley:  talk talk take charge talk bully us into having a clue

Hmm... but I think we achieved rather more than that. And you forgot 

pdcawley: between rants mange mange mange mange gulp. 

-- 
Piers




Re: Lunch

2001-01-22 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Any chance of someone posting a summary of the discussion?
 
 "Three bowls of noodle soup, some of those crab things on a stick, one
 each of the ho fun..."

Cheung fun. The ho fun were the white noodles in my soup.

-- 
Piers




Re: Lunch

2001-01-22 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Cheung fun. The ho fun were the white noodles in my soup.

/pedant

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread Simon_Wilcox


I think everything is stored on a per-session basis.

  So if you want something changed for all sessions you have to change and
  re-save each one.

  I think (having only ever used Putty against two machines running the same
  OS) !

  Simon.






The backspace-ctrl-h. I can set it once in putty, and it works, but if I
quit putty and restart, new sessions don't get it.

Michael











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