Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread alex


easier said than done - it's a lot easier to hire good people than
convince clients that perl is the way forward - i may be wrong but i think
there are less and less big Perl projects out there available to perl
consultancies.  once you get to a particular price bracket (necessary to
afford and retain uber perl hackers) people start wanting to hear the
corporate technology buzzwords - j2ee, open market, bea, sap, siebel etc

this is just my 2p - please appreciate that i would love the situation to
be different (ie people queueing up for solutions using open source
methods - particulary perl) but i don't think that is the market
situation. 

alex

On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 y* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 11:41:33PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
Just to let you all know I'm on the market again.
Me too.
   er.. and me. 
  
  Who was it that was saying that the contract market was great just now?
  
 
 i think it was me, i dont want to go into this too much, but i think
 that a general perl consultancy (you know who you are) can take these
 guys, be very clever at marketting yourselves and prosper
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, alex wrote:

 
 easier said than done - it's a lot easier to hire good people than
 convince clients that perl is the way forward - i may be wrong but i think
 there are less and less big Perl projects out there available to perl
 consultancies.  once you get to a particular price bracket (necessary to
 afford and retain uber perl hackers) people start wanting to hear the
 corporate technology buzzwords - j2ee, open market, bea, sap, siebel etc

This does appear to be true, mind you many companies are recruiting perl
developers for themselves. This is healthy. I think a lot of companies see
j2ee, weblogic, etc as 'safe' despite quite catastrophic failures and the
high cost (the price of a consultant or contractor for any of these buzz
technologies is 2 or 3 times the price for less trendy technologies).

I think java is likely to be associated with a load of spectacular
failures. I don't think any project has failed because of cost or flaws in
perl, and major companies are migrating towards perl and oss in
general. many vendors like weblogic are claiming sites liek amazon use
technology when they have migrated to perl.

perhaps its time to beat these vendors at their own game with a list of
their clients who have migrated.
 
A.


-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Mark Fowler wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Aaron Trevena wrote:
  I think java is likely to be associated with a load of spectacular
  failures. 
 To be fair, most of these won't be Java's fault.  It's just that Java is

No, they'll be the vendor JVM's fault. :)

 the first choice of someone who is going on buzzwords, and hasn't really
 thought about the technical issues involved.

True.

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it. -- Mae West




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Philip Newton

Chris Devers wrote:
 In any event, the leading 1 is never part of the phone 
 number, but you always have to dial it whenever making a 
 "long distance" call.

Well, I would have thought that's just splitting hairs -- is the '0' part of
the number 0207 xxx  is the number 207 xxx  "but you have to dial a
0 before that"? Comes out to the same thing. Except for...

 This used to mean anything beyond a 
 certain distance from your local calling area /or anything 
 outside of your area code,

Where you can have 713 555 1212 without a leading 1, and 1 555 3434 with a
leading 1 but without an area code (in big area codes such as maybe 801 =
Utah). Hm, so I guess the 1 is not part of the area code.

 but with 10 digit numbers you'll 
 probably just have to put it in front of about every number 
 dialled, thus giving everyone in the country an 11 digit 
 phone number. 

But maybe this'll change in the future -- with 1 being always/never present.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 I think its partially the vendors fault - they are pushing java as a
 solution for things it clearly isn't right for.
 

out of curiousity - such as (i.e. which vendors are pushing java for
inappropriate problem sapces)? 

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Philip Newton

Neil Ford wrote:
 I suppose I'd be splitting hairs if I pointed out that the 
 dialing code for London is 020, meaning numbers should be
 shown as 020  .

Oh, all right. Thanks to Neil and Simon for the correction. I suppose this
misapprehension comes partly because it *used* to be two dialing codes (071,
081 -- or was it 0171, 0181? Or both, one after the other? I forget).

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:16:07PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 
 I'd also add that Java, to my eyes, seems dreadfully uncooperative. Is it
 really as hard as it seems to get a non Java program to talk to j2ee stuff?
 Or is it all just part of the Java marketing? Is it me or is COM actually
 way easier to use than CORBA?

The "J2EE platform" consists of so many disparate technologies
that it's very hard to generalise about it. It's quite easy
to get a non-Java program to talk to an HTTP servlet, for
example :-)

Which parts of J2EE tend to get used the most in enterprise
environments? Anyone got any ideas/experience?

Presumably most people build solutions around e.g. weblogic,
rather than doing everything from raw ingredients.

 .robin.

-- 
"You are bound to be in a state of mental unrest, even turmoil.
 And of course there can be no inner peace: be proud of it!"



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  I think its partially the vendors fault - they are pushing java as a
  solution for things it clearly isn't right for.
  
 
 out of curiousity - such as (i.e. which vendors are pushing java for
 inappropriate problem sapces)? 

Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
e-commerce, plain and simple.

Accounting, some business processes map well to java but not all and
certainly not anything involving parsing and suchlike of any kind.

I don't think java is suitable for client/server systems either - having
both written and used java client/server apps, the networking classes in
1.2 and 1.3 suck badly and make the code long, slow and unclear.

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Happy

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross


I'm very happy this afternoon. I've just seen a copy of my book on
a shelf in a bookshop[1]. That's the first time I've seen it in the 
wild. Of course, I'd have been happier if someone had been buying it :)

Dave...

[1] It was Books etc. at Monument if anyone wants to rush out and buy 
it!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
 ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating tons of
 noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.

Wait until TPC.

-- 
Thus spake the master programmer:
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless."
-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"



Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Wistow

Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
 # locally an rpc call is made to the remote package server, which creates
 # an object and returns the local id to the other machine

That was the way I was thinking of doing it as well.

Hmm, nother thing to add to the list of things to do.



Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Wistow

Robin Houston wrote:

 A stateful server would definitely help here.

It was going to be a stateful server. But stateless could be an option.



Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

Is the intention simply that it be possible to use modules
which aren't available locally?

If so, you could do something like:

 - use request is passed to module server
 - module server "require"s module (will do nothing if it's already
been required. That's a good thing)
 - server serialises module stash (including subs) and passes it
   back to client
 - client deserialises stash, calls import()
 - client can now use module without actually having it.

Major problems:

 1. (de)serialisation would be hard, but not impossible
(the hard bit, code, can be done with B::Deparse)
 2. XS won't work


(2) is the killer, I fear.

 .robin.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:34:41 +0100, Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
  ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating 
  tons of noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.
 
 Wait until TPC.

Sounds interesting. Care to elucidate?



Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-28 Thread Mark Fowler

Code I wrote to do most of what you people are talking about a couple of
weeks back, loading over ssh.

This does not work for non-pure perl code.  i.e. XS is a no-no

The idea I was using it for:

 a) User presses a button in the web browser
 b) Downloads .config.html from that directory the site which contains 

i)  The current directory from the server's point of view
ii) The address of the perl code to configure this site

Both of which have RC5 checksums

 c) The perl code is downloaded to configure said site and run  This
starts a Tk widget that can be used to edit config stuff remotely.

The key idea behind this is that you need nothing special on the server
bar ssh and httpd.  And your client need have no special idea of what
it needs to have installed.

Anyway, the code:

use File::Remote;

# then later

 
# Setting up the @INC trap


# right now we modify @INC so that it will load files from afar
# this stolen from p5p - http://www.perl.com/pub/2001/03/
# p5pdigest/THISWEEK-20010305.html

push @INC, sub 
{
my $foo = shift;
my $modname = shift;
  
# this is going through scp - make all :: into /
$modname =~ s|::|/|;

# combine the paths
my $filename = $codepath.$modname;

# create a $remote object
my $remote = File::Remote-new( rsh = '/usr/bin/ssh',
   rcp = '/usr/bin/scp',); 

my $fh = new IO::Handle;

# open the thingy as if by magic, returning
# undef if there is a problem
$remote-open($fh, $filename) or return undef;

return $fh;
   }


-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Piers Cawley

"Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 The recent .com crash has had many desirable effects as well as undesirable
 ones, and one of these is the devaluation in hype in .com related
 technologies. An awful lot of the value of the big packages is based on
 future value - "You don't need this software today, but you will in a year's
 time so buy it today and you'll be ahead of the competition and able to
 scale up fast when the orders start pouring in!". This doesn't carry much
 weight anymore.

Hmm... Given that big business seems to have bought some of the ideas
of 'Just In Time' stock holding and delivery type stuff, maybe the
time has come to start pushing Perl and open source programming as
being 'Just In Time Development'.

[FX: Makes note in the 'you really should turn this into some real
marketing literature' file.]

-- 
Piers




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Philip Newton

Simon Wistow wrote:
 It was origially 01 ne c'est pas?

(ITYM "n'est-ce pas?") Yes, it was. I remember that time.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Philip Newton

Dominic Mitchell wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:08:59PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
  Discuss.
 
 s/fuck|tits|arse//;

Nonono. You want reusable components so you don't end up reinventing the
wheel, badly.

use Regexp::Common 'clean';  # don't muck with my $,

s/$RE{profanity}//g;

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



JOB: non-london

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

I happen to know of a nice perl / linux admin gig in the midlands if
anyone wants it ...

mail me offlist if you would be so kind.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



RE: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread alex


i'm not sure this does cut both ways - if what you are saying is correct -
then java's dominance becomes even more of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

i don't think it's the corporates themselves who are making all the noise
about java - it's an aggressive sun PR department which is latching on to
corporate java projects and then turning these into "case studies". 

basically, no matter how much good-natured perl advocacy there is out
there - it's always going to be very hard to influence corporate decision
makers when you are up against an army of buzzword technology salaried PR
departments. 

i think the difference between Linux and Perl is relevant. Linux has been
adopted by big hardware manufacturers in an effort to challenge M$
dominance. Linux is therefore gaining credibility in corporateland (though
the jury is definitely out). The same cannot be said of Perl. Until a
corporate puts marketing muscle behind it (highly unlikely) people will
perceive it as a hacker technology.

alex

ps whoever raised the issue of opex/capex - openness: the more people i
talk to nowadays about selling consultancy work - the more i hear people
wanting product and support - not bespoke solutions. people out there have
different notions of openness: they would prefer to be in hock to a brand
name technology company (eg Open Market) than a consultancy with an exotic
skillset (which does actually make some sense).

 
 One thing to remember is that the hype cuts two ways. We may read in a
 magazine of ten projects using Java, and none using Perl, but that is as
 much because the companies that are using Perl don't bother sending press
 releases to everyone than it is because no one is using Perl.
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dean S Wilson

Original Message-
From: Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
 ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating
tons of
 noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.

Wait until TPC.


Ahh come on! We need more than that! :)

Where are all the things like Perl advocacy, PR, Business Awareness
and non-technical expansion plans for the language discussed?

Dean
--
Perl coder in a sea of PHP.




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Houston wrote:
 
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
  I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
  Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell.
 
  I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
 
 Since excellent regex libraries are freely available, this
 is akin to claiming that Perl is useless for writing HTTP
 clients because LWP isn't in the core ;-)

blatantly off topic

I was thinking about this the otherday - can you recommend some (pref
open source) Java regex libs ?

going back to the perl topics 

Greg


 
  .robin.
 
 --
 A man, a plan, a cat, a ham, a yak, a yam, a hat, a canal--Panama!
 --Guy Jacobson



Re: yapc::Europe::19101?

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:38:51 +0200, Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 Has anyone else heard anything about yapc::Europe::19101?

Yeah. Dates and venues and stuff have been announced. And there was 
a CFP. It's all on http://www.yapc.org/Europe/.

 ISTR dimly that last year around this time you lot were further down 
 the road in organising things than what I see now. 

I really don't think that's true. My memory is that nothing was
organised until about July. I may be romanticising tho' :)

 This may have been due to the open yapc mailing list where one could 
 see "things happening" -- even if the "things happening" was 
 only "another meeting to try to find a venue". Amsterdam has a venue, 
 but I don't think they have a public mailing list yet, where one can 
 ask about hotels, etc. The website is pretty sparse as well.

They were talking about resurrecting the existing public list. Feel
free to post questions to it and see if you get a response.

 Is anyone here going to be in Amsterdam? 

I will. And, probably, a large contingent of the usual suspects.

 Probably arrive Wednesday, leave Sunday.

 Decided where you're going to stay yet?

Nah. That's months away :)

Dave...



RE: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Jonathan Peterson

I quote from the MediaSurface brochure on my desk:

"The Content Server is written in Perl, the de facto standard language for
server-side applications on the World Wide Web."

 It's not just that, if a software house wants to support a languages
 interaction with its product, where does it go for Perl? P5P? CLPM?
 Could a CEO/CTO go on and really discuss sensitive matters with
 either group?

Alas that TPI went titsup.com. Businesses love partnerships - they smell of
shared risks. Businesses can partner with RedHat to get involved with Linux.
They can't partner with anyone but ActiveState to get involved with Perl,
and for some reason ActiveState just don't seem to have the right vibes.

 Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
 problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
 things.

Yeah it's a bitch.

 *sigh*

 Greg

 --
 Greg McCarroll
http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:59:40PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
 I was thinking about this the otherday - can you recommend some (pref
 open source) Java regex libs ?

OROMatcher.
http://jakarta.apache.org/oro/index.html

There's also gnu.regexp, for LGPL fans:
http://www.cacas.org/~wes/java/

Both support perl5 syntax, more or less.

 .robin.

-- 
"Sometimes I sit in front of my washing machine and contemplate the
 worthlessness of life.  My washing machine isn't even plugged in."
--alex



Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Mison

On 28/03/2001 at 13:23 +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:09:37 +0100, Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

[London phone codes]

 It was origially 01 ne c'est pas? Then it changed to 071 (Inner
 London) and 081 (Greater London) then it changed to 0171 and 0181 and
 then finally to 020 7xxx and 020 8xxx

And all of those changes have happened in the last 10
(12? I'm guessing here) years.

And each time we've been told that the changes will cope with the
demand for phone numbers for many years. Which has been a lie.

It would have done if Oftel had done things properly; instead they
somehow managed to create between 10 and 20 times more numbers and
still fuck things up.

The US approach (longer local numbers- everywhere is 7 digits now,
prepended by a three digit 'city' code) combined with the fact there
was room to expand the three digit codes (Microserfs buffs will note
that this is because they used to all be \d[01]\d, and now they're
\d\d\d) seems to have worked well, as new numbers in, say, outer New
York just have different area codes.

There must have been *some* way Oftel could have made something similar
work here.

--
:: paul
:: this world's crazy, give me the gun





Re: mmm ... toys ..

2001-03-28 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:46:43PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:

 nahh .. not much of a games fan .. so 3d is rather wasted on me .. but
 I'll keep winders (which is already annoying the F..k out of me [1]) fo
 rthngs like Autoroute and the like, which are actually very good .. in a
 windoze sort of way.

vmware is your friend.  I use it for Autoroute and Amipro.  I installed
Win98 in vmware.

   first time I've used windoze in a year or
 so and its anoying the hell out of me so far. 

I had to use Windows very briefly today (I wanted to see if my PCMCIA
hard disk was supported).  It was.  But it still annoyed me by its
horrible clunkiness.  But what *really* pissed me off is that Windows
will not let me re-partition that disk.  Presumably because the disk
has a Sun disklabel on it.  Piece of shit.  Fuck knows how I'm going
to fix that.  Hopefully if I delete the partitions under Solaris then
Windows will be able to re-partition it.  I really don't want to have
to build a new Linux kernel with Sun disklabel support, cos I have
no idea whether this device is supported or not.

I want to use it to transfer stuff from my sister's old Doze laptop to
her new one.  I don't have enough NICs to do it properly, and using
a PCMCIA SCSI card and a CD burner seems like overkill :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Houston wrote:
 
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:59:40PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
  I was thinking about this the otherday - can you recommend some (pref
  open source) Java regex libs ?
 
 OROMatcher.
 http://jakarta.apache.org/oro/index.html
 
 There's also gnu.regexp, for LGPL fans:
 http://www.cacas.org/~wes/java/
 
 Both support perl5 syntax, more or less.
 
  .robin.

Ta.

Greg

 
 --
 "Sometimes I sit in front of my washing machine and contemplate the
  worthlessness of life.  My washing machine isn't even plugged in."
 --alex



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
  I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
  Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell. 
  
  I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
 
 Since excellent regex libraries are freely available, 

like I said.. as far as i can tell .. which maybe not very far :)

so .. enlighten me .. how would you go about using regexes in Java? 
-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: yapc::Europe::19101?

2001-03-28 Thread Philip Newton

Dave Cross wrote:
 At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:38:51 +0200, Philip Newton 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Has anyone else heard anything about yapc::Europe::19101?
 
 Yeah. Dates and venues and stuff have been announced. And there was 
 a CFP. It's all on http://www.yapc.org/Europe/.

I know. Thing is, what's there is pretty much limited to what you summed up
in two sentences.

  ISTR dimly that last year around this time you lot were 
  further down the road in organising things than what I see now. 
 
 I really don't think that's true. My memory is that nothing was
 organised until about July. I may be romanticising tho' :)

That may be right :). Still, it *felt* further down the road, I think.
Probably because I could see things happening (or not happening --
ic.ac.uk) and didn't just have to sit there hoping things would work out all
right.

(However, I do remember not having much tangible to show my boss until quite
late -- especially times and subjects of papers.)

 They were talking about resurrecting the existing public list. Feel
 free to post questions to it and see if you get a response.

Hm. 'll have to try that.

  Decided where you're going to stay yet?
 
 Nah. That's months away :)

Yabbut only four months. I guess hotels tend to fill up, and airlines like
you to book well in advance, too.

I'll try the yapc-europe list and see what happens.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: yapc::Europe::19101?

2001-03-28 Thread Leon Brocard

Philip Newton sent the following bits through the ether:

 Has anyone else heard anything about yapc::Europe::19101?

No. Yes. Maybe? ;-)

Well, you'll all be happy to know that we're resurrecting the old
yapc::Europe mailing list[1] to give everyone a better idea of what's
going on. Planning is *way* more advanced than last year, although
perhaps this hasn't been exposed. Ask all you evil questions there ;-)

I will, of course, be continuing my Perl Conference World Tour and be
there (maybe even for the week so I can pop down to HAL2001 too...)

Leon

[1] http://yapc.org/Europe/list.html
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... I'm not afraid of clouds in the daytime



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-28 Thread David H. Adler

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:37:14PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
 David H. Adler wrote:
  What, no CiP rating???
 
 Well, there wasn't any Perl code included. But it should be pretty
 straightforward to hack the algorithm together, or might as well hijack the
 Convert::Base32 module for the purpose.

Maybe we should implement a pCiP rating, for *potential* for CiP, based
on how marvellously deranged a program is conceptually...

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
"Chicken Wire?" - Lou Marini



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:33:16 -0500, "David H. Adler" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:37:14PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
  David H. Adler wrote:
   What, no CiP rating???
  
  Well, there wasn't any Perl code included. But it should be pretty
  straightforward to hack the algorithm together, or might as well 
  hijack the Convert::Base32 module for the purpose.
 
 Maybe we should implement a pCiP rating, for *potential* for CiP, 
 based on how marvellously deranged a program is conceptually...

Would this be an appropriate time to point out that my TPC talk 
proposes the creation of a Parse::Perl::Approx module :)

Dave...



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
 Would this be an appropriate time to point out that my TPC talk 
 proposes the creation of a Parse::Perl::Approx module :)

You are an evil man.

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it. -- Mae West




Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:38:16 +0100 (BST), Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
  Would this be an appropriate time to point out that my TPC talk 
  proposes the creation of a Parse::Perl::Approx module :)
 
 You are an evil man.

You know I'm going to take that as a compliment :)

Dave...



Re: yapc::Europe::19101 (now Archive::Zip)

2001-03-28 Thread Greg Tod

Jon Galliers wrote:
 
 I have a real fear that this is a really stupid question, however I'm
 having real problems using Archive::Zip.

Try something like:

  use strict;
  use Archive::Zip qw( :ERROR_CODES :CONSTANTS );

  my $zip = Archive::Zip-new();
  my $member = $zip-addFile("boris.pl");
  $member-desiredCompressionLevel(9);
  $zip-writeToFileNamed("boris.zip") == AZ_OK or die "Zip write error";



Greg



Re: yapc::Europe::19101?

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Leon Brocard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Philip Newton sent the following bits through the ether:
 
  Has anyone else heard anything about yapc::Europe::19101?
 
 No. Yes. Maybe? ;-)
 
 Well, you'll all be happy to know that we're resurrecting the old
 yapc::Europe mailing list[1] to give everyone a better idea of what's

it seems pretty alive to me ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:35:33AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 
 Would this be an appropriate time to point out that my TPC talk 
 proposes the creation of a Parse::Perl::Approx module :)

What does it do?

 .robin.

-- 
Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas!



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:37:14PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
  David H. Adler wrote:
   What, no CiP rating???
  
  Well, there wasn't any Perl code included. But it should be pretty
  straightforward to hack the algorithm together, or might as well hijack the
  Convert::Base32 module for the purpose.
 
 Maybe we should implement a pCiP rating, for *potential* for CiP, based
 on how marvellously deranged a program is conceptually...
 

motion carried, todo list increased

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:44:07 +0100, Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:35:33AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
  
  Would this be an appropriate time to point out that my TPC talk 
  proposes the creation of a Parse::Perl::Approx module :)
 
 What does it do?

It, er... parses Perl.

Approximately.

Dave...
[I may practice the talk at the next technical meeting]



Re: Archive::Zip

2001-03-28 Thread Jon Galliers

cheers, sorted



Try something like:

   use strict;
   use Archive::Zip qw( :ERROR_CODES :CONSTANTS );

   my $zip = Archive::Zip-new();
   my $member = $zip-addFile("boris.pl");
   $member-desiredCompressionLevel(9);
   $zip-writeToFileNamed("boris.zip") == AZ_OK or die "Zip write error";



Greg

Thanks
Jon

*
  Jon Galliers   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Programmer Perl/C++/MySQL/DB2/Java
  Design Net http://www.design.net.uk
 Tel: +44(0)870 240 0088
 Fax: +44(0)870 240 0099
*




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Robin Houston wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
  I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
  Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell. 
  
  I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
 
 Since excellent regex libraries are freely available, this
 is akin to claiming that Perl is useless for writing HTTP
 clients because LWP isn't in the core ;-)

any regex that requires 8 lines to do what perl does in 1 is hardly
excellent.

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:09:50PM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 the fuckwits at Oftel lumbered us with 01[78]1 in the first place is
 something of a mystery to me...

Was it Oftel that made that choice or BT? I was assumed it was the
lumbering ineptitude of The World's Most Evil Phone Company (to whom
it's customary, and justified, to attribute both malice ** stupidity).

Paul



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-28 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:52:23AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:44:07 +0100, Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:35:33AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
   
   Would this be an appropriate time to point out that my TPC talk 
   proposes the creation of a Parse::Perl::Approx module :)
  
  What does it do?
 
 It, er... parses Perl.
 
 Approximately.

For a twisted example of approximately parsing a subset of perl, see
http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/tech/perl-dep.  It's not pretty, and
I probably wouldn't write it that way now.  It was originally written
whilst at Oven in an attempt to compensate for the total lack of
documentation on the ecountries.com project.  Aside from the documented
weaknesses (it doesn't try to correctly handle comments or quoted text,
nor does it know about the evils of EXPORT), it is surprisingly
accurate at finding dependencies between files and subroutines.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:08:59PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
 I reckon interperability is big, and that XML-RPC (or possibly even
 SOAP) will change the way we work. There's no point writing everything
 in one language or environment any more. Microsoft may have understood
 this with .NET. Discuss.

Correct, especially SOAP, WSDL, etc. This is going to be very big
indeed. MS is betting their company on this. Watch out...

Paul



Re: Mac OS X (was Re: mmm ... toys ..)

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:05:18AM +0100, Neil Ford wrote:
 On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:11:13PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
  I don't suppose anyone else chose 'root' as their primary account
  name during install?
  
  I did and am wondering if this is why my OS X installation is totally
  hosed  useless: I can't open folders in my (own!) Home (Insufficient
 
 That would be it. Root on Mac OS X is a special user that by default isn't
 enabled and doesn't have a home directory, etc.
 
 You probably need to re-install and choose a normal user name. This user will

What, how about bin? Or mail? Or daemon? :-)

OS X really shouldn't've let me use a system name. Doh!

 be set up as an administrator and have pretty good access rights. For easy
 access you can do 'sudo tcsh' or if you want to enable root via
 Applications|Utilities|NetInfo - it's a menu option.

Thanks!

Anyone played with Project Builder?

Paul



Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Chris Benson

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:29:21PM +0100, Paul Mison wrote:
 
 There must have been *some* way Oftel could have made something similar
 work here.

The people in uk.telecom were suggesting a one-off-this-will-hurt-but-
it'll-only-happen-once change where the entire country moved to 
() - 
format,  back in the early '90s to my knowledge (some of them were
probably suggesting it back in the '60s, they'd been there long enough
:-).

Instead we get a numbering system consisting entirely of patches :-(
-- 
Chris Benson



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 It's not just that, if a software house wants to support a languages
 interaction with its product, where does it go for Perl? P5P? CLPM?

NetThink? :)

 Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
 problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
 things.

Hmm. I wonder how we could go about fixing that.

-- 
King's Law of Clues :  Common sense is inversely proportional to the
academic intelligence of the person concerned.



Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Chris Benson

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:04:34AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:09:50PM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
  the fuckwits at Oftel lumbered us with 01[78]1 in the first place is
  something of a mystery to me...
 
 Was it Oftel that made that choice or BT? I was assumed it was the
 lumbering ineptitude of The World's Most Evil Phone Company (to whom
 it's customary, and justified, to attribute both malice ** stupidity).

The word (again from uk.telecom) was that it was officially Oftel,
but BT told them to do it: "Alternatives were [] technically impossible,
[] would confuse the subscribers [] would confuse the elderly [] would
cost business too much".  Pick any that might just possibly apply.

This may be related to how Oftel was originally staffed: my impression
was that it was just the bit of the Post Office that monitored the
Telephone bits: they got split off into Oftel.
-- 
Chris Benson



Re: yapc::Europe::19101?

2001-03-28 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Philip Newton wrote:

 I'll try the yapc-europe list and see what happens.


The rest, as they say, is history  :)

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:10:00PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
  Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
  e-commerce, plain and simple.
 
 Why not?
 
 Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 

probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
last child is reaped ... 100 lines?

 Can you write stored procedures in Perl? For Oracle?

i thought (but have never tried) thats what OraPerl did ..

 (-- the database most often used in  e-commerce.) 

is it? ... sure you don't mean 'the database used by most large
corporates for e-commerce' ? I know nothing about the spread of spend
between the large coprporations and the small 5 dollar outfits .. but
theres a hell of a lot of small guys out there, running MySQL and
postgres ... maybe in spend oracle wins, but in sheer numbers of
transaction the other 2 proabably have the upper hand

 Are Perl's threads stable? And its libraries entirely threadsafe?

are Javas? hint: do not mention java threading and cross platform
compatability to my colleague as his hair is thin enough already

 Does Perl even directly support threading at the language level?

nope .. but do you need to? why do you need threads to do
point-click-buy? sure you can use threads to advantage in some
situations, but they are not essential by any means ...  

 Can you trivially embed a perl network application in a browser?

no .. but its not trivial in Java either .. a random small app on a demo
CD is a world away from a real live multi platform Java app on the net ..
my colleague has been working on getting a multiclient network app up to
run consistently on ie 4/5 netscape 4/4.7 windoze and mac for the last 6
months or so ... I agreee that Javas portability of classes between
server and client is an amazing thing .. but its not trouble free, or
guaranteed as the blurb would have you believe.

 Java's favour is not *entirely* due to massive marketing pimpery.

no .. it _does_ have its strong points .. I wouldn't have even
bought a  book if i thought it was really bad .. but it just seems to
make some things so hard to do.  Mybe its just me being crap. I'd be
intrested to set a good perl programmer and a Java guy head to head ..
get em to build an app to the same spec and see how long they took, and
then get them to extend it in some way and time that ..  

don't get me wrong .. I'm not just Java bashing .. but really, the hype
it gets would have you believe its all tings to all men .. in reallity
its got good points, but some big holes too ... 

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Paul Makepeace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:10:00PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
  Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
  e-commerce, plain and simple.
 
 Why not?
 
 Can Perl do distributed database transactions? Can you write stored
 procedures in Perl? For Oracle? (-- the database most often used in
 e-commerce.) Are Perl's threads stable? And its libraries entirely
 threadsafe? Does Perl even directly support threading at the language
 level? Can you trivially embed a perl network application in a browser?
 
 Java's favour is not *entirely* due to massive marketing pimpery.
 

the one thing that comes out of paul's comments is that he mentions
database operations and client side processing in a browser, and
this is important - i think aaron can come back citing data/text processing,
etc., but the real solution medium to business problem modelling/solving
with computers is not traditional language based, this glue (and i'll
go ad naseum here - not glue language) is abstracted, and yes XML is
likely to be a building block technology, but the devil is in the
details

anyway, i'll slag myself off now ...

how much more wooly can you than this? ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
  Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
  problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
  things.
 
 Hmm. I wonder how we could go about fixing that.
 

My favourite solution in business when you are faced with the problem
of people not wanting you to implement something or not being sure
about it and wanting a period of consideration is as follows ...

fuck it, just do it

(who says i couldn't work for nike)

I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).

This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
then we can achieve something. 

I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
forum/organisation does this)

I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
the wider stage, but ho hum.

Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross 
(with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.

Greg



-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Paul Makepeace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:08:59PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
  I reckon interperability is big, and that XML-RPC (or possibly even
  SOAP) will change the way we work. There's no point writing everything
  in one language or environment any more. Microsoft may have understood
  this with .NET. Discuss.
 
 Correct, especially SOAP, WSDL, etc. This is going to be very big
 indeed. MS is betting their company on this. Watch out...

i'll fuck them if its the last thing i do on this one, trust me

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Ok, I'm useless, but I've just been to talk to the Cittie, and
 they say they're booked out next Thursday.
 

ok it looks like PO

.. or the anchor!

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:
  Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 
 
 probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
 establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
 last child is reaped ... 100 lines?

I think the key word in Paul's question was "transactions".
In other words, you have more than one database, possibly
in different physical (and network) locations, and you need
to perform a transaction - an _atomic_ transaction - across
several of them.

No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
or fail completely.

The obvious example is a bank transfer. Add the money to one
account, remove it from the other. Oops, the second part failed.
Double your money!

Actually, any e-commerce operation has the same problem. You
need to fulfil the order *and* charge the customer - those
two things almost certainly can't happen on the same machine.
If you do one and not the other, then either the supplier or
the customer is obviously losing out. It has to be neither or
both.


I think that's what Paul was talking about. He can correct me
if I'm wrong :-)

 .robin.

-- 
select replace(a, CHR(88), replace(a,,'')) from (
select 'select replace(a, CHR(88), replace(a,,)) from (
select ''X'' a from dual)' a from dual)



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:48:05PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 ok it looks like PO
 
 .. or the anchor!

Anchor! Anchor! Anchor!

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: JOB: Symbian

2001-03-28 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 * Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Anyone interested in this should contact Dave Jobling directly on
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

 And you'll get to work just a couple of yards from me!


'nuff said .

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
  form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
  sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
 
 Fuck it. Let's do it.
 

Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already
have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can
take it from Simon's email that NetThink believe this to be a good
idea, if others can reply _on list_ we can get a good sense
of commitment, i think i identified some parties in the previous
email.

Greg




-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: JOB: Symbian

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  * Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   Anyone interested in this should contact Dave Jobling directly on
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
 
  And you'll get to work just a couple of yards from me!
 
 
 'nuff said .
 

the good bit is that they don't have to work with me (different
dept), but they can still go drinking after work! see none
of the drawbacks and yet all the of the drawbacks!

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:48:05PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  ok it looks like PO
  
  .. or the anchor!
 
 Anchor! Anchor! Anchor!
 

Hush now brother, contain thy enthusiasm, others are still not ready
for the way of the heretic. We must consider them - they are the
sheep that may prefer their 2 half pints of lager shandy in PO, and!,
and if they are exposed to the intense mixture of heavy drinking and 
rapant flames that is heresy, their minds may be weakened to such a state
that python seems like a `nifty' idea to them.


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
   form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
   sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
  Fuck it. Let's do it.

Firstly, mod_perl passim.

 Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
 to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already

TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
different styles. How can you evaluate this?

 have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can

Please share this

 take it from Simon's email that NetThink believe this to be a good
 idea, if others can reply _on list_ we can get a good sense
 of commitment, i think i identified some parties in the previous
 email.

If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

Please enlighten us.

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
What  passes  for  woman's  intuition  is often  nothing  more  than man's
transparency. -- George Nathan




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:28:31PM +0100, Chris Benson wrote:
 it'll-only-happen-once change where the entire country moved to 
   () - 

Twelve and eight digit phone numbers? So phalanxes of psychologists
noting that the human brain has the magic number seven genetically
imprinted into it should just be tossed out the window?

I still don't see what's wrong with the US system. Sure, it's filling
up but then the population is 5x the UK and I'd bet they have more
per capita business (i.e. allocated business lines) than the UK.

Anyway, the whole 'numbers' thing is long over due to be replaced by
those new fangled 'letters'. Works for DNS...

 Instead we get a numbering system consisting entirely of patches :-(

Yes, it's embarrassing. "So, why *is* your country's phone system so
utterly hosed?"

Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 * Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
   Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
   problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
   things.
 
  Hmm. I wonder how we could go about fixing that.
 

 My favourite solution in business when you are faced with the problem
 of people not wanting you to implement something or not being sure
 about it and wanting a period of consideration is as follows ...

 fuck it, just do it

 (who says i couldn't work for nike)

 I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
 NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
 make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
 wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
 argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).

 This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
 can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
 then we can achieve something.

 I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
 Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
 they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
 forum/organisation does this)

 I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
 the wider stage, but ho hum.

 Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross
 (with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
 Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.


Strangely I was talking wiv da boss this morning about the training issues
wrt perl in our department ... I might find myself doing some training in
the near future . :)

/J\




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Chris Devers

At 12:04 PM 28.3.2001 -0800, you wrote:
Anyway, the whole 'numbers' thing is long over due to be replaced by
those new fangled 'letters'. Works for DNS...

Yeah, exactly. We're already partly there, sort of. I don't know the phone numbers of 
any of the people I call at all regularly (i.e. more than twice ever), because the 
first thing I do with any such phone number is to set the number for autodial. What's 
my fiance's cell phone number? "May Cell". What's Cingular's number? "Cingular". 
What's my bank's number? "Eastern Bank". Easy. Work in some kind of good pervasive 
naming scheme and the underlying numbers can get arbitrarily complex without bothering 
anyone. 




--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  * Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   Ok, I'm useless, but I've just been to talk to the Cittie, and
   they say they're booked out next Thursday.
  
 
  ok it looks like PO
 
  .. or the anchor!
 
 
 Where is the Anchor ?  If its near LB station I'll be very up for it 
 

very near LB station, just past the cathedral a few hop skips and
a jump past clink street ( look out for people trading in their little
metal scooters and iBooks for food ) and you are there

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Leon Brocard

Michael Stevens sent the following bits through the ether:

 Ok, I'm useless, but I've just been to talk to the Cittie, and
 they say they're booked out next Thursday.

Michael, you're *useless*!

The only reason I haven't got the weekly summary out yet is because of
you being so useless. It has nothing to do with the fact that I just
got Zone of the Enders (fun) that happen to come with a Metal Gear
Solid 2 demo (fab). Oh no.

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:51:10PM +0100, Robin Houston wrote:
 I think that's what Paul was talking about. He can correct me
 if I'm wrong :-)

Exactly what I meant :-) And Java's a whole lot better for this than
COBOL, C, and other things that make you go "blech".

J2EE is horribly bloated but the stuff it does is, in some cases,
quite hard. And the big point is it does it today, which Perl doesn't
despite Perl's doubtless eventual capability.

You know, Perl's biggest problem is it being associated with slow
non-mod_perl CGI scripts. It's years old but I swear this assocation
will Never Die. As soon as you mention 'mod_perl' in defence people
glaze over as if converting a Jehovah's Witness to New Guinea
Witchcraft.

All it needs is to be tightly but flexibly integrated into
webserver(s), blessed with a completely new name and fronted by a flash
highly corporately sponsored web page... I secretly wish "Perl 6"
gets called "Something Else Completely" (no revision number for 1.0
'cos "1.0" means "barely beta" thanks to Apple, MS, etc).

$1/50,
Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
  different styles. How can you evaluate this?
 it doesn't matter how they achieve most things, as long as they can
 do them ... reasonably

Fair. Where do you draw the line of "reasonably". This falls down to
personal preference.

   have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can
  Please share this
 it's too late tonight, i'll try and remember tommorow, the plan is more 
 how to get it organised and do all the dull procedural stuff quickly

Sure.

 the actual content is up for debate, although i think levels of perl
 `skillz' would suck, i'd much rather see a ``core'' perl
 certification,

OK. Fair enough. This sounds reasonable.

 and slowly secondary skill certifications being developed and registered,
 however at launch, probably WWW and DBI spring to mind as two
 secondary ones that will be there from the word go - however they will be 
 focused quite tightly on their areas

Do you not think that in today's internet world, these mostly go together.
Interestingly, though, in training new people at my current company, I
discovered that they are quicker to learn Perl, and have much more of a
problem with the stateless nature of HTTP and the implications of dealing
with web browsers. That doesn't belong in a Perl certification. This is
kind of where it gets difficult, and why the mod_perl'ers appeared to
abandon it...

  If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
  consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.
  
  Please enlighten us.
 well hopefully when people get in tommorow they will either say yes or
 no, i'll get a plan of action out soon after that 

I'm curious to see what you come up with. The interesting bit is where you
draw the line...

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
What  passes  for  woman's  intuition  is often  nothing  more  than man's
transparency. -- George Nathan




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:
   Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 
  
  probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
  establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
  last child is reaped ... 100 lines?
 
 I think the key word in Paul's question was "transactions".
 In other words, you have more than one database, possibly
 in different physical (and network) locations, and you need
 to perform a transaction - an _atomic_ transaction - across
 several of them.

oh _that_ transaction .. oops .. with MySQL not doing proper transactions
by default, I keep forgetting they exist :) 

again, you could do it ..  but granted it would be a non-trivial
task. If thats sooper easy in Java then I have learnt someting and today
wasn't wasted after all ... :)

(my pseudo-transaction scheme for MySQL is basically : .. do this and
return a closure to undo it if I to .. bung the closures in an array ..
if something screws up then back it all off by walking along the array
and executing the closures ... its not rocket science but it works ..
sort of .. I used it for doing multiple inserts into a spread of tables
... the lack of row level locking is whats a real pain .. you have to
lock all the tables, which is Bad Karma if they are in an even moderately
loaded system)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
 If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
 consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

That's mainly due to the M rather than the C.

-- 
She said that she was working for the ABC News,
It was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use
-- Elvis Costello



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Simon Cozens wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
  If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
  consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.
 That's mainly due to the M rather than the C.

OK, well some of the Cisco courses are pretty crap too...

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
What  passes  for  woman's  intuition  is often  nothing  more  than man's
transparency. -- George Nathan




Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:57:45PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 Maybe I should start a mailing list for discussion of this stuff tomorrow
 - thoughts ?

Sounds a good idea. We're also happy to host it, if you want.

-- 
"Irrigation of the land with seawater desalinated by fusion power is ancient.
It's called 'rain'."
-- Michael McClary, in alt.fusion



Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Chris Benson

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:04:05PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:28:31PM +0100, Chris Benson wrote:
  it'll-only-happen-once change where the entire country moved to 
  () - 
 
 Twelve and eight digit phone numbers? So phalanxes of psychologists
 noting that the human brain has the magic number seven genetically
 imprinted into it should just be tossed out the window?

That's 7+/-2 remember and the 7-2 crowd are screwed anyway :-) so
why not up the ante a bit more!  Anyway who remembers full telephone
numbers?  my GF used to be tyneside(0191), jesmond(281), 1143,
the taxi is tyneside(0191), newcastle-centre(261), .

 I still don't see what's wrong with the US system. Sure, it's filling
 up but then the population is 5x the UK and I'd bet they have more
 per capita business (i.e. allocated business lines) than the UK.

But it *is* filling up now: the aim being, like with IPng,  to not
have to change again:  

neat quote from the Economist about IPv6 
... 4 billion addresses for each of 4 billion people on each of
4 billion planets in each of 4 billion galaxies.  This should be
enough to cope with expected growth in numbers of mobile devices,
Internet-capable household appliances and so on for the next
few millenia.
/neat
 
 Anyway, the whole 'numbers' thing is long over due to be replaced by
 those new fangled 'letters'. Works for DNS...

But DNS maps onto ... numbers, 4-12 digit numbers, soon to be luvverly
8 x 4 hex digits!  
 
And I'd rather dial 999^W112 than mm,mmm,r,rrr,fff,u,m,aa,r,i,a,#,p,mmm,
  or whatever "northumbria police" translates to :-)

Hey, maybe this is another 8uffy encoding system?

  Instead we get a numbering system consisting entirely of patches :-(
 
 Yes, it's embarrassing. "So, why *is* your country's phone system so
 utterly hosed?"

I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question since you've asked it in polite
company :-)   

But you have to wonder: BT, RailTrack  the ToCs, Water Co.s, ...
The Dome, ... I've actually started sending DepressoGrams(tm) to 
homesick friends in New Zealand to make them feel better!
-- 
Chris Benson



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:04:56PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 Hush now brother, contain thy enthusiasm, others are still not ready
 for the way of the heretic. We must consider them - they are the
 sheep that may prefer their 2 half pints of lager shandy in PO, and!,
 and if they are exposed to the intense mixture of heavy drinking and 
 rapant flames that is heresy, their minds may be weakened to such a state
 that python seems like a `nifty' idea to them.

I should confess that I recently installed python on one of my boxen.
Excuse: something else needed it.  However, I'd like to take a look at
it sometime.  Same goes for Ruby.  More things for the to-do queue.

I also installed Python on the Palm, cos I thought it was a nifty idea.
I deleted it earlier today cos I thought putting Lovecraft books on
there was a better use of memory.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 18:52 28/03/2001, you wrote:
Ok, I'm useless, but I've just been to talk to the Cittie, and
they say they're booked out next Thursday.

OK. Looks like it's back to the PO next Thursday then people.

Dave...



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 20:47 28/03/2001, you wrote:
* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
   Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
   problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
   things.
 
  Hmm. I wonder how we could go about fixing that.
 

My favourite solution in business when you are faced with the problem
of people not wanting you to implement something or not being sure
about it and wanting a period of consideration is as follows ...

fuck it, just do it

(who says i couldn't work for nike)

I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will
sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).

This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
then we can achieve something.

I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
forum/organisation does this)

I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
the wider stage, but ho hum.

Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross
(with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.

Got my blessing - for what it's worth.

Dave...



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, David Cantrell wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:04:56PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

  Hush now brother, contain thy enthusiasm, others are still not ready
  for the way of the heretic. We must consider them - they are the
  sheep that may prefer their 2 half pints of lager shandy in PO, and!,
  and if they are exposed to the intense mixture of heavy drinking and
  rapant flames that is heresy, their minds may be weakened to such a state
  that python seems like a `nifty' idea to them.

 I should confess that I recently installed python on one of my boxen.
 Excuse: something else needed it.  However, I'd like to take a look at
 it sometime.  Same goes for Ruby.  More things for the to-do queue.


gellyfish@orpheus gellyfish]$ python -v

snip

Python 1.5.2 (#1, Aug 25 2000, 09:33:37)  [GCC 2.96 2731
(experimental)] on linux-i386
Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam

...

Couldnt help it 

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:

 If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
 consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

*We* may look down on the qualification, cos we know it's worthless just
like most other qualifications, and certainly we will look with great
suspicion at potential employees who try to sell themselves based solely
on such qualifications.

However, the Pointy Haired Ones do not realise this.  They think
qualification = professional whereas no qualification = amateur.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:07:42PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  .. or the anchor!
 
 Where is the Anchor ?  If its near LB station I'll be very up for it.

Oh, it's *very* near London Bridge.  It would be the ideal venue.  It
has nice beer, nice open fires, ...

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:19:55PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just started 
 charging for tests.

Perhaps the Perl community should have an online certification program
that funnels cash into the Conway Coffers? :-)

No, wait, that might just work...

Paul



Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 21:57 28/03/2001, you wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

  * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

[Certification things]

Maybe I should start a mailing list for discussion of this stuff tomorrow
- thoughts ?

There _was_ a Perl certification mailing list that Skud started a while 
back. Don't know if it still exists tho' - been quiet for a while.

Dave...



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:19:05PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 gellyfish@orpheus gellyfish]$ python -v
 
 snip
 
 Python 1.5.2 (#1, Aug 25 2000, 09:33:37)  [GCC 2.96 2731
 (experimental)] on linux-i386
 Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam

aol excuse="mailman"

Python 1.5.2 (#0, Apr  3 2000, 14:46:48)  [GCC 2.95.2 2313 (Debian
GNU/Linux)] on linux2

/aol

Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:

 http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
 strong.
 
 And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer in 
 London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just started 
 charging for tests.

well I just looked ... and their script failed to find 'Perl' even though
they have a test for Perl ...  whoever wrote the site obvioulsy dint do
very well in the tests!

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 22:19 28/03/2001, Dave Cross wrote:
At 21:24 28/03/2001, Simon wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
  problems with Perl work in london,

http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
strong.

And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer in 
London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just started 
charging for tests.

Bugger! I'm not any more. Matthew Robinson has beaten me into second place.

Dave...
[sulking]



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:29:46PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
 advantage over other databases - speed.  But I wasn't allowed to upgrade
 to (eg) postgresql for silly reasons which I forget now.

Your PHBastard called in a $200k/month Oracle DBA and you walked after
the weekend to find your root prompt replaced with NT4.0 logon box?

I hate it when that happens.

Paul



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:20:55PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:

 aol excuse="mailman"
 
 Python 1.5.2 (#0, Apr  3 2000, 14:46:48)  [GCC 2.95.2 2313 (Debian
 GNU/Linux)] on linux2

My excuse was portsentry, but it sucked and I deleted it.

majordomo is the one true mailing list manager, and you sir, are a heretic.
Welcome to the club :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:32:15PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 well I just looked ... and their script failed to find 'Perl' even though
 they have a test for Perl ...

I hope this isn't the programming language equivalent of dot-bomb
stock becoming unlisted as 'junk' on the NASDAQ...

"Perl dropping 2 1/8 colons against Python today..."
http://home.earthlink.net/~mrob/pub/lang_srom.html

Paul



Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:22:37PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 There _was_ a Perl certification mailing list that Skud started a while 
 back. 

Unless we're thinking of different things, wasn't that just perl-trainers?

 Don't know if it still exists tho' - been quiet for a while.

Nothing on lists.perl.org, anyhow.

-- 
She said that she was working for the ABC News,
It was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use
-- Elvis Costello



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Chris Devers

At 12:24 PM 28.3.2001 -0800, you wrote:
http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
strong.

Heh -- they're one of my company's main competitors. I don't know the first thing 
about them (aside from the I think reasonable assumption that they must do roughly the 
same things my company does, or they wouldn't be "one of our main competitors"...), 
but I was informed during a tediously long meeting today [1] that they're not doing 
very well, saved at the moment mainly by a boatload of VC funds that they're burning 
through. With any luck, the certification industry will implode.

'course that could mean I need a new job, but we'll see :)


[1] You mean I have to look forward to another 40 years of these damn meetings? I 
think Martin Blank had the right idea: "will there be meetings?" "...sure!" "No 
meetings." *blam*! *blam*! *blam*!




--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:45:09PM -0500, Chris Devers wrote:
 Heh -- they're one of my company's main competitors. I don't know the first
 thing about them

*cough*. Hey, that's not good, you know. :)
 
-- 
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence.
-- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 5



Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 22:44 28/03/2001, you wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:22:37PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
  There _was_ a Perl certification mailing list that Skud started a while
  back.

Unless we're thinking of different things, wasn't that just perl-trainers?

No. There was definitely a perlcert as well. I've got about 60 mails from 
it from Mar/Apr last year. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Don't know if it still exists tho' - been quiet for a while.

Nothing on lists.perl.org, anyhow.

I'll ask Skud next time I see her on IRC.

Dave...



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Chris Devers

At 10:49 PM 28.3.2001 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:45:09PM -0500, Chris Devers wrote:
 Heh -- they're one of my company's main competitors.
 I don't know the first thing about them

*cough*. Hey, that's not good, you know. :)

Well, yeah, I suppose. :)

I just keep our site running, but I leave the contents of the site to Marketing. 
Certification exams may pay my bills, but I certainly don't care to take any of them...



--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Mac OS X (was Re: mmm ... toys ..)

2001-03-28 Thread Neil Ford

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:35:25AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:05:18AM +0100, Neil Ford wrote:
  On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 04:11:13PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
   I don't suppose anyone else chose 'root' as their primary account
   name during install?
   
   I did and am wondering if this is why my OS X installation is totally
   hosed  useless: I can't open folders in my (own!) Home (Insufficient
  
  That would be it. Root on Mac OS X is a special user that by default isn't
  enabled and doesn't have a home directory, etc.
  
  You probably need to re-install and choose a normal user name. This user will
 
 What, how about bin? Or mail? Or daemon? :-)
 
 OS X really shouldn't've let me use a system name. Doh!
 
Remember, OS X is an operating system especially designed for idi^H^H^Hmummies
and daddies.[1]

They are just going to put in their name. And why do you think /bin is hidden
in the finder? It would be the first thing to go in the trash if it wasn't.

Neil.

[1] obviously plagariesed reference. Anyone? ;-)

-- 
Neil C. Ford
Managing Director, Yet Another Computer Solutions Company Limited
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Lucy McWilliam


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:48:05PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 ok it looks like PO
  .. or the anchor!

Do either do real ale?


L.
"Take your haddock to the paddock"




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:26:38PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
  (my pseudo-transaction scheme for MySQL is basically : .. do this and
  return a closure to undo it if I to .. bung the closures in an array ..
  if something screws up then back it all off by walking along the array
  and executing the closures ... its not rocket science but it works ..
  sort of .. I used it for doing multiple inserts into a spread of tables
 
 I did something similar.  It worked too, until not only did an insert
 fail, but when I was backing out, a delete failed too.  There was much
 head-scratching.  A week later, the hard disk died and the head-scratching
 stopped.

;)) .. 

 Unfortunately, if you implement this sort of thing, mysql loses it's only
 advantage over other databases - speed.  But I wasn't allowed to upgrade
 to (eg) postgresql for silly reasons which I forget now.

well .. since in most web based uses of MySQL the 99% of queries are
simple 'select * from blah where something=something_else' .. the
speed is all you need .. every now and again there is reason to add a
user or, very occasionally, someone buys something .. and those bits have
the pseudo-transactions in .. yeah .. its slow, but I'd ratehr have that
bit slow and the rest lightning quick than pretyy much anything else ...

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread David H. Adler

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 03:29:21PM +0100, Paul Mison wrote:
 
 The US approach (longer local numbers- everywhere is 7 digits now,
 prepended by a three digit 'city' code) combined with the fact there

s/city/area/;

NYC, for instance, has at least two area codes at this point.   I
notice, in fact, that the current Manhattan phone directory not only
lists 212 (Manhattan and formerly the rest of the city), but two
cellular phone area codes, 646 and 917.

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
You get the idea that if Apple won a 90% market share, bought out
Microsoft, and hired Bill Gates to mop the bathrooms, Business Week
would write: "Apple has all but ignored the possibility of alien
invasion..."- David Pogue



Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-28 Thread Roger Burton West

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:04:05PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:

Anyway, the whole 'numbers' thing is long over due to be replaced by
those new fangled 'letters'. Works for DNS...

Oh @deity, let's not do that. Consider the mess the WIPO's causing
now, and then think about competition for "good" phone names...

Roger



Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:57:45PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
  Maybe I should start a mailing list for discussion of this stuff tomorrow
  - thoughts ?
 
 Sounds a good idea. We're also happy to host it, if you want.
 

either is ok, although once/if we get kevin's blessing - i'd like to
host it at YAS, just so it is fully independent

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:04:56PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  Hush now brother, contain thy enthusiasm, others are still not ready
  for the way of the heretic. We must consider them - they are the
  sheep that may prefer their 2 half pints of lager shandy in PO, and!,
  and if they are exposed to the intense mixture of heavy drinking and 
  rapant flames that is heresy, their minds may be weakened to such a state
  that python seems like a `nifty' idea to them.
 
 I should confess that I recently installed python on one of my boxen.
 Excuse: something else needed it.  However, I'd like to take a look at
 it sometime.  Same goes for Ruby.  More things for the to-do queue.
 
 I also installed Python on the Palm, cos I thought it was a nifty idea.
 I deleted it earlier today cos I thought putting Lovecraft books on
 there was a better use of memory.

Considers doing a description of Python as a Lovecraftian Elder god. 

Decides against it.

-- 
Piers




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