Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-29 Thread Nathan Torkington

Simon Wistow wrote:

 You use the RPC::Automagic module and pass it a RPC server/port/user
 name/password/whatever. From that point on it overloads the use keyword
 and anything you try and use it will actually connect to the RPC server
 and pass it all the parameters. Any modules you didn't want froma
 remote server you just use them before you use the RPC module. Or tell
 it to ignore those.

That's kinda, but not quite, what SOAP::Lite has.  For a single
namespace you can tell SOAP::Lite that function calls are really
SOAP calls.  It's all invisible, and really cool.

If you whispered this idea into Paul Kulchenko's ear, he'd probably
have it implemented within a day :-)

Nat



Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-29 Thread Nathan Torkington

Greg McCarroll wrote:
 sure it makes sense, but it still is CiP and trust me this isn't
 the only bit of CiP in here and much kudos to Paul for it ;-)

I'm unsure what CiP is, but if it has anything to do with gnarliness,
I know that Paul wrote a 1k regexp to parse XML correctly.  It only
fails one test from a real XML parsing package, and he tracked that
to the limitations of the new RE stuff in 5.6.0.

That dropped my jaw.

Nat



Re: Hello?

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

On 28 Mar 01, at 20:52, Jonathan Stowe wrote:

 Well london-pm and yapc-europe are on the same server so I dont think that
 its going to break the internet if you post to both :)

Except that it's going to be confusing if you haven't got your sorry 
excuse for procmail wired up right. Happened to me last year at work, 
where we have Outlook -- everything cross-posted to london-list and 
yapc-europe I got four times: twice in the london-list folder and twice 
in yapc-europe. See, I got two messages (one from each list), and each 
message triggered both rules since both "To:" address were present. I 
think I later changed it so that it looked at a custom list header 
(once someone pointed out to me that Outlook can do that).

Then the only confusing thing was that hitting "Reply" sent the reply 
to the list if I used the copy in the london-list folder, and to the 
author if I used the copy in the yapc-europe folder... :)

But I think last year, far too much got cross-posted between the two 
lists, and other things were not cross-posted enough so one list 
(generally yapc-europe) only got snippets of conversations which didn't 
really make sense unless you were also subscribed to london-list.

Truth be told, that's when I first signed up to london-list... and for 
a while, I got close to subscribing to (void) as well, as they seemed 
to get dragged into the fray quite a bit as well. (Fortunately, I 
resisted the temptation. I get quite enough mail as it is.)

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]





Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 is it? ... sure you don't mean 'the database used by most large
 corporates for e-commerce' ? I know nothing about the spread of spend
 between the large coprporations and the small 5 dollar outfits .. but
 theres a hell of a lot of small guys out there, running MySQL and
 postgres ... maybe in spend oracle wins, but in sheer numbers of
 transaction the other 2 proabably have the upper hand

Foul!

You mentioned MySQL and transactions together.   :-)

-Dom (and no, layering db3 underneath doesn't count)



Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Nathan Torkington ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Greg McCarroll wrote:
  sure it makes sense, but it still is CiP and trust me this isn't
  the only bit of CiP in here and much kudos to Paul for it ;-)
 
 I'm unsure what CiP is, but if it has anything to do with gnarliness,

CiP = Crack induced Perl, the sort of things that most C++ _software
  engineers_ would want you strung up for. The sort of things
  you can only get away with in languages like Perl and previously
  the only other sort of place you could see this sort of thing
  was Assembly and/or severe wizardry C.

 I know that Paul wrote a 1k regexp to parse XML correctly.  It only
 fails one test from a real XML parsing package, and he tracked that
 to the limitations of the new RE stuff in 5.6.0.
 
 That dropped my jaw.

Is it available online?

Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be without
a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up with someone
like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses to "PCSE"
standards) this might be a big winner.

alex

ps i only mention learning tree because they're a company people know of
OUTSIDE the Perl community.

ps2 PCSE - Perl Certified Software Engineer? lack of imagination?


 
 I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
 NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
 make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
 wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
 argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
 
 This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
 can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
 then we can achieve something. 
 
 I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
 Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
 they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
 forum/organisation does this)
 
 I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
 the wider stage, but ho hum.
 
 Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross 
 (with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
 Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.
 
 Greg
 
 
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-29 Thread Robert Shiels

From: "Dave Cross" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 28 March 2001 22:12
Subject: Re: Social Meeting (fwd)


 At 18:52 28/03/2001, you wrote:
 Ok, I'm useless, but I've just been to talk to the Cittie, and
 they say they're booked out next Thursday.

 OK. Looks like it's back to the PO next Thursday then people.

 Dave...

Yea. I have few routines in my life, but this is one I enjoy. And the
food's affordable there too.

/Robert




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be without
 a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up with someone
 like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses to "PCSE"
 standards) this might be a big winner.
 

Well i was hoping on getting an initial commitment of people
to sign up to it from the list, they would effectively join
some `forum' under YAS, they would sign up to some fairly
trivial commitments (e.g. employers would `recognise' the
qualification). Then we'd figure out the first 3 skill areas.

This would leave us with some content and a body. At this point
hopefully people could take the test and we could then move
on to evangelise it with people like learning tree.

The important thing from my POV is that its not learning tree
from day one, as they will simply want to say - taking learning
tree course Perl101 means people get core competency and it
would become the usual noddy thing. Involving them later when
the forum was established would give them slightly less
clout.

This is of course, imho.

Greg


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
 Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
 different types of table for some reason.

It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
operation, hash, btree and recno.

I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
on 2nd hand evidence.

-Dom



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
  On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:10:00PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
   e-commerce, plain and simple.

gartuitous snippage
 
 no .. it _does_ have its strong points .. I wouldn't have even
 bought a  book if i thought it was really bad .. but it just seems to
 make some things so hard to do.  Mybe its just me being crap. I'd be
 intrested to set a good perl programmer and a Java guy head to head ..
 get em to build an app to the same spec and see how long they took, and
 then get them to extend it in some way and time that ..


I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects where given
to lots of programmers, the usualy results were show i.e algorythm
design was the most important factor, although on the whole scripting
langauges were faster to develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and
lower memory footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
the URL.

Greg
 
 don't get me wrong .. I'm not just Java bashing .. but really, the hype
 it gets would have you believe its all tings to all men .. in reallity
 its got good points, but some big holes too ...
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti
 
 The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
 So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 03:55:57AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:51:46 +0100 (BST), alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  ps2 PCSE - Perl Certified Software Engineer? lack of imagination?
 
 Shouldn't that be CPH for "Certified Perl Hacker" or is that missing 
 the point?

Certified Perl Regular would be far more amusing.

"Dammit, get me a CPR!"

-Dom



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


depends what you want from the exercise - if you are a perl shop and want
to know how good applicants are then, yes, CPH (but if you're a perl shop
you can pretty quickly determine how good people are anyway). so, i can't 
really see the point in this. 

i think it should sound like a professional certification a la MCSE simply
to address corporate criticisms that this is a hackers only language with
no certification.

i think the whole initiative should be more about making Perl be taken
more seriously OUTSIDE the community. 

alex

 
 Shouldn't that be CPH for "Certified Perl Hacker" or is that missing 
 the point?
 
 Dave...
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:51:46 +0100 (BST), alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be
  without a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up
  with someone like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses
  to "PCSE" standards) this might be a big winner.

 It's a fair point. But do Learning Tree have a good reputation in the
 marketplace? I'm not sure they do.


I categorically refused yesterday to allow any of out people to be sent on
a Learning Tree Perl course ...

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 The important thing from my POV is that its not learning tree
 from day one, as they will simply want to say - taking learning
 tree course Perl101 means people get core competency and it
 would become the usual noddy thing. Involving them later when
 the forum was established would give them slightly less
 clout.


Absolutely right.  To bring Learning Tree (or any other Commercial
Training House ) would mean we would prbably be compelled to go along with
what they already teach - which may or may not be any good as far as we
are concerned - after all they have a whole bunch invested in training
materials and existing trainers which they are not going to give up easily
...


Possibly a first step would be to work out how to certify the certifiers
as it were ...


/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread James Powell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:59:35AM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
  Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
  different types of table for some reason.
 
 It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
 DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
 operation, hash, btree and recno.
 
 I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
 across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
 of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
 on 2nd hand evidence.
 
 -Dom

But as well as Berkeley there's innobase and gemini (not in yet?)
table types that support transactions.
http://www.mysql.com/documentation/mysql/bychapter/manual_Table_types.html

I can't say I've used any of them or would trust any of them...

And MySQL has got full-text indexing now - didn't notice that one

http://www.mysql.com/news/article-54.html
"MySQL 3.23 now has full-text indexing and searching capabilities. This
allows you to search your vast databases of
textual information, with queries returning search string
occurrence/relevance."


Incidentally, saw your ssh letter in the new LJ...

jp



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Mark Fowler

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

  Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
  problems with Perl work in london,
 
 Are employers there too stupid to read CVs? Or too lazy?

I'm too lazy.  Speaking as someone who has recently spent a while vetting
CVs for people for a job, it's hell.  For a experienced perl programmer
it's easier for me to tell if you've had the experience by what jobs you've
done before.  For a mid range programmer (who may have only worked at one
company before) it's really hard.

CVs are the first step through the door.  I'm just trying to assess if
you're good enough to have in for an interview.  That's where I, and my
boss, and probably my bosses boss will actually make the decision.  A
certification system I could trust would be really helpful.  It would save
so much time trying to get rid of the guy that came in and said 'I don't
use modules, I prefer to write my own code in the script.' et al.

Later.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 IMHO to be of any use certification needs to be HUGE .. eg we need
 O'Reilly AND Manning behind it or it simply won't fly. We could write a

i think this will end up a slow process

 very comprehensive set of tests and assesment levels, do all that. It
 could be the very best thought out, standards based certification for
 Perl out there .. but without a Major Backer (eg the two afore mentioned
 companies) its nothing ... 

that can wait - stage a. is all that is important for now

 a) Fuck it, Just do it .. ( so thats got the ball rolling)
 b) get some other groups (eg NY.pm ) involved to get the support of the
 Perl community at large

ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
(or something similar)

Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 that's not the point. 
 
 if learning tree design a course (with the community's approval
 natch) that is of sufficient standard and then put on their catalogs:
 
 Advanced Perl (3 days) - 1750 GBP + VAT
 
   [preparation for PCSE exam]  with a nice logo 
 
 imagine the value of free publicity that is coming out of that! None of
 the organisations mentioned (netthink, iterative, or indeed codix) have
 anything like the clout individually or collectively to start getting a
 PCSE logo recognisable to IT directors.
 

yip its great, but you can't get there on day #1

 BTW, just so we're clear - i was thinking of another org to actually do
 the certification. Maybe a privately owned company formed from the
 london.pm membership.
 

YAS can probably take care of this, i mailed Kevin last night, but
havent heard back yet

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

James Powell wrote:
 
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:59:35AM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
  On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
   Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
   different types of table for some reason.
 
  It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
  DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
  operation, hash, btree and recno.
 
  I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
  across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
  of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
  on 2nd hand evidence.
 
  -Dom
 
 But as well as Berkeley there's innobase and gemini (not in yet?)
 table types that support transactions.
 http://www.mysql.com/documentation/mysql/bychapter/manual_Table_types.html
 
 I can't say I've used any of them or would trust any of them...

I've tested innobase and it appears to be fine.  It very Oracle like in
the way it works (it needs loasd of resources to run quickly).  MyISAM
table handlers for speed and Innobase table handlers for transaction
based tables (also with row locking) and you should be away.  (The
Innobase code is apparently not new, and has been taken from another
project and bolted on, which sounds bad but actually appears to work
quite well).

Greg

 
 And MySQL has got full-text indexing now - didn't notice that one
 
 http://www.mysql.com/news/article-54.html
 "MySQL 3.23 now has full-text indexing and searching capabilities. This
 allows you to search your vast databases of
 textual information, with queries returning search string
 occurrence/relevance."
 
 Incidentally, saw your ssh letter in the new LJ...
 
 jp



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Have you thought about charging structures, SAP charge about 300gbp to take
 a certification exam, and they offer courses that are specifically designed

i had thought about a 20 quid fee to be sent to YAS

 to help you pass, which culminate in taking the exam itself. And if you are
 collecting money and giving out qualifications, have you decided what
 company should be doing it. And you'll need some way to say that the
 certifiers are certified to do this anyway, otherwise the certification
 won't be worth much.

i have some ideas about this, i think i mentioned it in a seperate email


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-29 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 17:44:07 +0100, Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:35:33AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
   
   Would this be an appropriate time to point out that my TPC talk 
   proposes the creation of a Parse::Perl::Approx module :)
  
  What does it do?
 
 It, er... parses Perl.

ooh! I though only perl parsed perl.. how exactly does it parse perl... no
its okay I'll look at the pod.. /me cpan's.

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?

alex

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:

  I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
  of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
  this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
  certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
  of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
  from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
  for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
  the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
  they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
  This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
  is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
  were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
  of the recipients of the test.
 
 
 As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
 multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
 
 /Robert
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 And I realise that my description yesterday was slightly inaccurate.
 I said it would parse Perl approximately. A better description would be
 that it parses approximate Perl.


Thus making the phrase 'you can't make up any old shit and expect it to
work' redundant ?

Crack Head.

/J\




Re: Social Meeting

2001-03-29 Thread Robert Shiels

From: "Dave Cross" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 29 March 2001 09:13
Subject: Social Meeting



 OK. Bowing to pressure from the heretics - we'll go to the Anchor next
 Thursday. Never let it be said that I don't listen to the little
 people :)

So I go home at 7pm, and when I get to work at 9am the question has been
asked and the decision has been made.

/Robert, sulking

PS - Since when have messers McCarroll  Cantrell been little people :)




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll


what robert describes or what i describe?

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
 responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
 would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?
 
 alex
 
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:
   I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
   of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
   this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
   certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
   of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
   from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
   for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
   the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
   they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
   This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
   is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
   were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
   of the recipients of the test.
  
  
  As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
  multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
  
  /Robert
  
  
 
 -- 
 
 alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
 director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
 codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   
-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:08:44 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:02:39 -0500 (EST), Dave Cross wrote:
  At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:34:41 +0100, Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
   Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 But look at your headers:
  References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
 Where's [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave?

You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
it today.

Dave...
[who handily has his copy of "Programming Internet Email" on his desk]



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread Mark Fowler

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
 it today.

Your webmail CC is screwed up too.  On my mails there's now new line after
the Cc: so I get a line that says 

Cc: X-Mailer: foo 

which my mail client (PINE) wants to reply to...

Later.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








RE: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Peterson

  Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
  to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already

 TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
 different styles. How can you evaluate this?

I don't think it's a huge problem. For a start, certification can be
multiple choice, which eliminates the need to deal with correct answers in
esoteric style. (shamless plug for my amazing perltest project -
http://www.snowdrift.org/computers/perl/pt/)

Secondly, there is absolutely not reason why the certification can't agree
on a compulsory style. This is what happens in driving tests. There is more
than one way to turn the steering wheel, from suicide spinner to hand over
hand, but the driving certification declares that shuffling (or whatever
it's called) is the 'correct way'. No-one actually believes that you're a
dangerous driver if you use one of the other methods in some situations, and
it all works OK.

Thirdly, IMO certification is more about establishing that the candidate
doesn't do stupid things than that they are very clever. The driving test
only seeks to establish that you've read the highway code, and can get from
A to B without screwing up.

Likewise Perl certification should seek to show that a candidate has RTFM'd
and get get from A to B without screwing up, for various values of A and B .


 If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
 consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

Most _people_ consider MCSEs a useful way of gauge a minimum standard of
knowledge in prospective employees. Most professional system engineers and
programers may feel differently.




Re: Social Meeting

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 From: "Dave Cross" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 29 March 2001 09:13
 Subject: Social Meeting
 
 
 
  OK. Bowing to pressure from the heretics - we'll go to the Anchor next
  Thursday. Never let it be said that I don't listen to the little
  people :)
 
 So I go home at 7pm, and when I get to work at 9am the question has been
 asked and the decision has been made.

the one -ive point is that foods expensive there, if it had the
cheap food of PO it would be ideal - or even some decent pub
food (hot pies etc.)

 
 PS - Since when have messers McCarroll  Cantrell been little people :)

I don't know but it implies Cross has put on a hell of a lot of
weight since i last seen him ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


sorry, was unclear. robert proposed a meta-certification body which then
gave the tests out to certifiers (netthink, iterative etc). this seems to
me to be far too complicated and fragmented.

i think you need a single organisation which plays the difficult balancing
act of:

* being respected and trusted by the Perl community (there's no
  point if the Perl decision makers poo poo it)
* has enough autonomy from the Perl community or transparency to
  not be perceived as a guild / closed shop (this accusation could
  be levelled very easily if the exam were perceived to be designed so that
  only an inner sanctum could possibly pass it)
* has rich enough grading so that mere mortals can achieve some
  level of certification and gurus can also be recognised  - i
  think it is in everyone's interests if lots of new people pass PCSE 
  at some level (i think there is a strong perception that Perl skills 
  are hard to find)
* being commercial - particularly focused on marketing the PCSE
  logo to training companies, logos and IT directors. I don't
  think a voluntary, well-meaning effort will achieve this. 

alex

 
 * alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
  responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
  would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?
  
  alex
  
  On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:
I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
of the recipients of the test.
   
   
   As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
   multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
   
   /Robert
   
   
  
  -- 
  
  alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
  director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
  codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:
   Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 
  
  probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
  establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
  last child is reaped ... 100 lines?
 
 I think the key word in Paul's question was "transactions".
 In other words, you have more than one database, possibly
 in different physical (and network) locations, and you need
 to perform a transaction - an _atomic_ transaction - across
 several of them.
 
 No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
 or fail completely.

eval {
$fulfillment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
$payment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
do_the_payment_thing($payment_dbh);
do_the_fulfillment_thing($fulfillment_dbh);
$payment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
$fulfillment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
}
if $@ {
$fulfillment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
$payment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
}

Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail. And
I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Robin Szemeti wrote:
  
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
   On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
   
I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell.
   
I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
  
   Since excellent regex libraries are freely available,
  
  like I said.. as far as i can tell .. which maybe not very far :)
  
  so .. enlighten me .. how would you go about using regexes in Java?
 
 No idea, I just play with it occassionaly to get my head round what's
 going on, after 5 minutes I realise that if I'd been using perl I'd had
 finished by now.  This is not "an experienced programmer developes
 faster in their language of choice", but the fact that to do it in jave
 takes loads more code!
 
 I was recently asked how to do substition in strings in ASP - thank the
 lord for regex'es.

Install ActiveState's PerlScript stuff, use Perl as your ASP language.
Problem solved...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Piers Cawley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  Hmm... Given that big business seems to have bought some of the ideas
  of 'Just In Time' stock holding and delivery type stuff, maybe the
  time has come to start pushing Perl and open source programming as
  being 'Just In Time Development'.
  
 
 I'm not sure this is a good image for Perl, we want to get away
 from the last minute solution image.

I'm sure I don't agree with you. If your solution isn't ready (and
tested and all that stuff) at the last minute and no earlier then you
should be using the spare time generated to make the solution better,
right up until the last minute.

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   * Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
Fuck it. Let's do it.
  
  Firstly, mod_perl passim.
  
   Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
   to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already
  
  TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
  different styles. How can you evaluate this?
  
 
 it doesn't matter how they achieve most things, as long as they can
 do them ... reasonably
 
   have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can
  
  Please share this
  
 
 it's too late tonight, i'll try and remember tommorow, the plan is more 
 how to get it organised and do all the dull procedural stuff quickly
 
 the actual content is up for debate, although i think levels of
 perl `skillz' would suck, i'd much rather see a ``core'' perl certification,
 and slowly secondary skill certifications being developed and registered,
 however at launch, probably WWW and DBI spring to mind as two
 secondary ones that will be there from the word go - however they will be 
 focused quite tightly on their areas

Start with Core Perl, covers the basics of being able to program in
Perl. Maybe an add on for OO Concepts in Perl.

Certifications should be competency based rather than being 'complete
this course, here's your certificate, which leads to problems of
qualifying as an assessor, but it's worth worrying about.

Once we know what the competencies required for a given certification
are, then the various training houses can come up with training
material and assessment services to help people reach that level of
certification. 

Gill's got a good deal of experience in dealing with Competency based
qualifications... 

-- 
Piers




Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Peterson

 sorry, was unclear. robert proposed a meta-certification body
 which then
 gave the tests out to certifiers (netthink, iterative etc).
 this seems to
 me to be far too complicated and fragmented.

There are three main roles to this as I see it, and it's not obvious to me
that they should all be done by the same body.

1. Administration of the tests. Just the operational hassle of testing
people, scoring them, logging results, sending certificates out etc.

2. Creation of the tests. Deciding what the different exams are, how hard
they are, what questions in them each year (quarter?), etc.

3. Marketing. Creating awareness of the certification, encouraging employees
to take the certification, making employers aware of it, encouraging
organisations to help with number 1 above.

Of all of these 1 is the hardest. IMO web based tests are inadequate. It's
too easy to cheat, from having the book in front of you, to having your mate
next to you, to doing it under 15 different names and seeing which one does
best. I'm not discounting a purely web based test, but I'm not convinced.

This means, you need to sit people down in exam like conditions of some
sort, where you can enforce at least time limit, that the person doing the
test is the one getting the certificate, and that they don't phone a friend
etc.

I think the only way of making this feasible, then, is to distribute it
across any company willing to participate. All it needs is for a company to
set a meeting room aside for a day, and provide a volunteer to administer
the test. We should be able to get corporates to do this in exchange for the
publicity and goodwill, and a small admin fee payed by each candidate
(fiver?).

Part of the role of the people doing task 2 will be to ensure that the tests
can be easily administered in this way.

Comments?





Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 21:24 28/03/2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
   problems with Perl work in london,
 
 Are employers there too stupid to read CVs? Or too lazy? Or is
 there some other benefit certification bestows besides having you
 laughed at in the pub because you ("one", not personally of course :)
 automatically rank alongst all those other "paper" Perl programmers?
 
 http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
 strong.
 
 And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer
 in London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just
 started charging for tests.

Do they still claim that I'm the best perl programmer in the UK? If so
it's completely bloody surreal...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 sorry, was unclear. robert proposed a meta-certification body which then
 gave the tests out to certifiers (netthink, iterative etc). this seems to
 me to be far too complicated and fragmented.

i think it was me that suggested this

 
 i think you need a single organisation which plays the difficult balancing
 act of:
 
   * being respected and trusted by the Perl community (there's no
   point if the Perl decision makers poo poo it)

hence the limitation to UK  ROI

   * has enough autonomy from the Perl community or transparency to
   not be perceived as a guild / closed shop (this accusation could
   be levelled very easily if the exam were perceived to be designed so that
   only an inner sanctum could possibly pass it)

it will be aimed at a base level, as i said earlier it at least initially
will not even consider skill levels, but just competency sections

   * has rich enough grading so that mere mortals can achieve some

i dont think it will be graded

 * being commercial - particularly focused on marketing the PCSE
   logo to training companies, logos and IT directors. I don't
   think a voluntary, well-meaning effort will achieve this. 

nope, i don't agree here - i don't think this is easy but their is
precedent, YAPC::*

anyway i'm posting a proposal in a few mins


Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Suggestion - use of Subject: line

2001-03-29 Thread Andrew Bowman

Just now there are two interesting discussions going on, one about Perl
certification, the other about databases, under the subject 'Re: Job: I'm
looking for one..", both of which forked off from the original discussion a
long while back.

Can one or preferably both sets of participants please change to a more apt
subject line - normally discussions drifting from their original topic isn't
that big a problem (I'm guilty as charged too), but when the list is as busy
as it is just now, with two quite different discussions going by the same
subject line, it'd be a big help for those trying to follow the
conversation(s) if they could be differentiated by their subject lines!

Go on, please ;-)

Andrew.


 application/ms-tnef


Proposal for the certification body

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll


Attached is a draft proposal

As soon as JS gets a chance to set up the mailing list, i suggest
me move the discussion there.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Title: Proposal for the formation of a non-profit Perl certification body for the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland




DRAFT

Proposal for the formation of a non-profit Perl certification body for the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland.
- Greg McCarroll ([EMAIL PROTECTED])


Purpose of document.

This document is a suggested plan for the formation of the body described in the title and later in the text of this document. The plan is aimed at the creation of a framework body in a short timeframe (approximately one month).

Description of the body.

The Perl certification body for the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland is initially limited to promoting Perl within the UK and Ireland via the process and effects of certification. 

It is limited to the UK and Ireland so that it can be established quickly without the need for full involvement of the wider Perl community. It is hoped that they shall observe it as an experiment in this area.

All code produced will be freely available. The questions database will be freely available to other non-profit certification bodies. The restriction of the question database is for two reasons. Firstly it shall not be public, as that would allow students to have access to all possible questions. Secondly it is not available to profit certification bodies, as there is a potential for confusion/misrepresentation of their certification with regards to this non-profit certification endeavour.

If at a later time a certification body in the wider Perl community is created that is non-profit, the body proposed here shall endeavour to integrate with this body.

It is a non-commercial body and shall inherit its operating framework from Yet Another Society (http://www.yetanother.org) which has already been active in promoting non-profit Perl activities.

Initial actions.



Seek approval for doing this activity within YAS. 
(This action is to be carried out by Greg McCarroll.)

Establish a mailing list for discussion of this proposal and the body as a whole. 
(This action is to be carried out by Jonathan Stowe.)

Advertise the existence of this mailing list within UK and Irish Perl communities.

On this mailing request/nominate volunteers and form a committee, requesting that organisations do not have more than one member representing them on the committee. The committee should have no more than 11 members.



Proposed initial actions of the committee.



Review of the content of this document, especially the following action points.

Definitions of the content of the competency sections and subsections.
Taking the proposed 3 competency sections – Core, Web and Database, each of these will be explored in order to identify competency subsections with them.

Examination of existing publicly available books and materials for recommended reading material for each competency subsection identified above.

Producing definitions of question types.
i.e. prediction of output, multiple choice, problem solving, etc.

Establishing a questions database web application. And allowing the general community to submit questions.

Categorising these questions with the criterias identified in actions 2 and 4 of this list.

Putting structures in place that examinations can be produced and executed, with the results being recorded by this body.

Evangelise and promote the use of this new certification mechanism.




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dave Cross

At 29 Mar 2001 11:43:59 +0100, Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

   http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
  strong.
  
  And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer
  in London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just
  started charging for tests.
 
 Do they still claim that I'm the best perl programmer in the UK? If so
 it's completely bloody surreal...

According to brainbench, this is a list of the 1o best Perl programmers
in the UK. How many names do _you_ recognise?

4.82 Piers Cawley 
4.71 Matthew Robinson 
4.67 Rob Partington 
4.66 Dave Cross 
4.61 Steve Keay 
4.6 Ben Bell 
4.53 David Bloomfield 
4.49 Christof Damian 
4.46 Nick Cleaton 
4.46 Maurice Buxton 

Dave...




Re: Suggestion - use of Subject: line

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Andrew Bowman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Just now there are two interesting discussions going on, one about Perl
 certification, the other about databases, under the subject 'Re: Job: I'm
 looking for one..", both of which forked off from the original discussion a
 long while back.

i've already fixed this in my draft proposal posting however i now see
that JP has also done it, so we will now have 2 threads with the
same topic ;-) hurrah!

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

Greg Cope wrote:
 I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects 
 where given to lots of programmers, the usualy results were
 show i.e algorythm design was the most important factor,
 although on the whole scripting langauges were faster to
 develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and lower memory
 footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
 the URL.

You may be looking for this:

http://wwwipd.ira.uka.de/~prechelt/Biblio/jccpprtTR.pdf
An empirical comparison of C, C++, Java, Perl, Python, Rexx, and Tcl for a
search/string-processing program

Or google for "empirical comparison Python Rexx program" for a few
references.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

Paul Makepeace wrote:
 Can you trivially embed a perl network application in a browser?
[snip]
 Java's favour is not *entirely* due to massive marketing pimpery.

Java support in browsers didn't magically come because Microsoft and
Netscape said "Hey, let's develop a Java plug-in for our browser".

Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
3.0?

I'd say that's marketing and not something built-in. You want client-side
Perl, you have ActiveState's PerlScript. What, nobody has a client for it?
Well, lack of marketing.

I think there was even a Tcl plugin for Netscape that nobody used. Probably
not because of merit or lack thereof, but just because it wasn't hyped
enough, and/or didn't ship as standard with a major browser.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



RE: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Peterson

 I think the money aspect is very important. This isn't YAS,
 it's supposed to
 be a professional qualification for professional programmers.
 300 sounds
 like a good number for me. "If it only costs a fiver then
 what good can it
 be" will be the PHB's attitude, I've seen this often.

Yes, you are right. However, given the, ah, aversity of many perl programs
to getting certified, I'd like to remove barriers to entry. If we can get
the 'professional' stamp by sticking names like O'Reilly (Or Microsoft - why
not?) on the certificates, and then charge less, I think that would be
better. But if not, then I agree a charge (mayb more 50 than 300?!) can have
a similar effect.





Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Paul Mison

On 29/03/2001 at 11:56 +0100, Philip Newton wrote:

Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
3.0?

Netscape 2 had Java built in, around the turn of 95/96. HotJava was
also about but that (understandably) died around the same time. I
*think* IE3 also did Java, about May '96.

mutter bias="Oven"anyway, most client side interaction seems to be
done with Flash anyway/mutter

--
:: paul
:: this world's crazy, give me the gun





Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 * Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  IMHO to be of any use certification needs to be HUGE .. eg we need
  O'Reilly AND Manning behind it or it simply won't fly. We could write a
 
 i think this will end up a slow process

umm .. so long as you have a benevolent dictator at the top its not that
slow... :) .. you are hereby elected benevolent dictator :)))

  very comprehensive set of tests and assesment levels, do all that. It
  could be the very best thought out, standards based certification for
  Perl out there .. but without a Major Backer (eg the two afore mentioned
  companies) its nothing ... 
 
 that can wait - stage a. is all that is important for now
 
  a) Fuck it, Just do it .. ( so thats got the ball rolling)
  b) get some other groups (eg NY.pm ) involved to get the support of the
  Perl community at large
 
 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

he did ? ... ?? ... dunno..  if its ever going to get there at a
corporate level we need this.

whos is the head perl advocacy bod/guru whatever .. surely someone should
speak to them at some point too ..preferably sooner than later?

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



RE: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Wilcox

At 11:56 29/03/2001 +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
  I think the money aspect is very important. This isn't YAS,
  it's supposed to
  be a professional qualification for professional programmers.
  300 sounds
  like a good number for me. "If it only costs a fiver then
  what good can it
  be" will be the PHB's attitude, I've seen this often.

Yes, you are right. However, given the, ah, aversity of many perl programs
to getting certified, I'd like to remove barriers to entry. If we can get
the 'professional' stamp by sticking names like O'Reilly (Or Microsoft - why
not?) on the certificates, and then charge less, I think that would be
better. But if not, then I agree a charge (mayb more 50 than 300?!) can have
a similar effect.

Maybe two levels ?

1. Tests as part of a course package are cheap. You already have the 
infrastructure set up and authorised trainers can administer the test.

2. Standalone test are more expensive. You have to have dedicated hardware 
and testing environments. What about getting those guys that do the Novell 
 Microsoft exams [pause for web search] Prometric to do it. They already 
have all the infrastructure.

Simon.




Re: Suggestion - use of Subject: line

2001-03-29 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 it'd be a big help for those trying to follow the
 conversation(s) if they could be differentiated by their subject lines!

have you no sense of tradition ?? we've always done it this way :) .. we
learnt the techniques on alt.sysadmin.recovery ...

 Go on, please ;-)

oh .. alright then .. 

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread alex


you hit the nail on the head.

 
 I think the money aspect is very important. This isn't YAS, it's supposed to
 be a professional qualification for professional programmers. £300 sounds
 like a good number for me. "If it only costs a fiver then what good can it
 be" will be the PHB's attitude, I've seen this often.


-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-29 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:07:28 +0100 (BST), Jonathan Stowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
 
  And I realise that my description yesterday was slightly inaccurate.
  I said it would parse Perl approximately. A better description 
  would be that it parses approximate Perl.
 
 Thus making the phrase 'you can't make up any old shit and expect it 
 to work' redundant ?

Well, not just "any old shit" - just how mad do you think I am?[1]. But 
maybe it would deal with the occasional typo. Or perhaps keywords in a 
different language... or something like that.

 Crack Head.

Thank you :)

Dave..

[1] Rhetorical!



Re: Proposal for the certification body

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 very interesting proposal. 
 
 a) would like to be part of the committee (coming from the Perl employer
 and selling Perl consultancy perspective)
 

Sounds great, i'm about to publish the details of the mailing list,
join and nominate yourself there.

 your earlier point about the success of YAPC::* (and why thinks should be
 100% non-commercial) - i didn't attend but from what i heard it was a big
 success in terms of organisation, attendance and quality of speakers
 etc. 

The point is, we can achieve things that interface with the commercial
world.

 but has it made a REAL impact on the perceptions of Perl outside the
 community. this seems to me be either the number 1 or 2 ultimate objective
 for exercises like PCSE. 
 

Different objectives - hence to aim to make an impact outside of the
community, if we need to do that, we can. 

 work supremely for writing software but they don't necessary translate
 perfectly to other activities - and i think Perl brand building (of
 which PCSE is just one component in the jigsaw) is one of them.
 

I'd like to think i'm a reasonably good business person as well
as engineer, i don't think we will have a problem with this sort
of expertise.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:07:28 +0100 (BST), Jonathan Stowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
  
   And I realise that my description yesterday was slightly inaccurate.
   I said it would parse Perl approximately. A better description 
   would be that it parses approximate Perl.
  
  Thus making the phrase 'you can't make up any old shit and expect it 
  to work' redundant ?
 
 Well, not just "any old shit" - just how mad do you think I am?[1]. But 
 maybe it would deal with the occasional typo. Or perhaps keywords in a 
 different language... or something like that.
 
  Crack Head.
 
 Thank you :)

Well the thing is that Dave's proposed module wouldn't score high on CiP,
the same goes for Sub::Approx. However modules that used them seriously
would, so maybe we need another term for this ...

Crack Dealer - One who produces modules, code snippets or techniques
that will in themselves not high in the CiP rating, helps others encourage
high CiP ratings.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Robin Houston

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:32:57AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 
 Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail.

That's exactly the problem. And what if you crash after the
first COMMIT?

This is not an easy problem. The usual solution is
called "two-phase commit". See
http://www.sei.cmu.edu/str/descriptions/dtpc.html
for example.

 And I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...

It's not a language issue per se.
J2EE is (a lot!) more than just the Java language.

http://www.subrahmanyam.com/articles/jts/JTS.html

 .robin.

-- 
"Do nine men interpret?" "Nine men," I nod. 



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Roger Burton West wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:44:04AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:

 4.46 Nick Cleaton

 Ought to be on here, ask Gellyfish...


He heh

Look what they say I got :

Total Tests Completed  41233
Your Rank (1 = top) 40653
Your Percentile (99 = top): 1

Ah - See, you have to put in the score 

/J\






Re: Proposal for the certification body

2001-03-29 Thread alex


btw, should all of this certification body stuff subsumed by a YAS called
"Perl for Business" with the aim of convincing corporates that Perl
is better technology investment than Java (and achieving this, in part,
by building Perl components wherever Java currently has an edge).

does such a YAS exist (or other type of body)?

alex

  
  YAS has already had `salaried' staff and grants so thats not that
  new a thing, if the certification brings in cash i'm sure some of
  it can be redirected to the costs. But I am keen to see the certification
  content first before we get bogged down in theoretical balance sheets.
  
  (imho)
  
  
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

Philip Newton wrote:
 
 Greg Cope wrote:
  I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects
  where given to lots of programmers, the usualy results were
  show i.e algorythm design was the most important factor,
  although on the whole scripting langauges were faster to
  develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and lower memory
  footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
  the URL.
 
 You may be looking for this:
 
 http://wwwipd.ira.uka.de/~prechelt/Biblio/jccpprtTR.pdf
 An empirical comparison of C, C++, Java, Perl, Python, Rexx, and Tcl for a
 search/string-processing program
 

That looks the ticket

ta.

Greg

 Or google for "empirical comparison Python Rexx program" for a few
 references.
 
 Cheers,
 Philip
 --
 Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
 If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



UK+ROI Perl Certification Mailing List

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll


JS, has yet again set up another mailing list for us ...

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
its a majordomo so its:
 
   subscribe perl-cert

in the body of the text to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

kudos again to JS for this,

greg


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Tony Bowden

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
 Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
 they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
 forum/organisation does this)

Somehow I doubt that the company still known as BlackStar will be that
interested.

I may be interested in being involved from a different perspective
though 

Tony
-- 
--
 Tony Bowden | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.tmtm.com/
 we barely have time to react in this world let alone rehearse
--



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread pmh

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:17:17 +0100 (BST), Mark Fowler wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
 
  You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
  it today.

Actually, that message was OK.


 Your webmail CC is screwed up too.  On my mails there's now new line after
 the Cc: so I get a line that says 
 
 Cc: X-Mailer: foo 
 
 which my mail client (PINE) wants to reply to...

That's a bug in PINE, then. There is actually a newline after Cc:, but like some other 
parsers (including an early version of mine), PINE can't cope with an empty field.

MIME::Parser does something strange, too: with empty fields, -get_all returns either 
('') or (undef) (I can't remember which), but with non-empty fields, -get_all returns 
the contents with newlines intact, confusing things immensely for formatting code.

-- 
Peter Haworth   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"My own writing [...] is of such high quality that it's almost a new media in
 itself. There is writing, and there is My Writing. UltraWriting. Writing++.
 Object-orientated writing with full pre-emptive multi-tasking running at
 1000 rpm with a 20ms seek time, at a reasonable price (credit available)."
-- Ashley Pomeroy



Re: Social Meeting

2001-03-29 Thread Paul Mison

On 29/03/2001 at 14:14 +0100, Natalie Ford wrote:
At 11:27 29/03/01, Greg McCarroll wrote:
the one -ive point is that foods expensive there, if it had the
cheap food of PO it would be ideal - or even some decent pub
food (hot pies etc.)

I haven't been to the Anchor but cheeep foood goood!

Anchor food nice, but 30 quid and sitting upstairs is perhaps a once a
year thing. They didn't do any bar food at all last heretic's meeting.

Yeah, I'll go to almost anything organised by a mailing list. Even if
it involves getting up at 5.30 in the morning.

--
:: paul
:: this world's crazy, give me the gun





Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

It would be nice to get his backing, but I think that to do that we would
have to get a system working, and then show him that the certification is
in fact meaningful and not Just Another String Of Letters.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 Given we can now have kanji URLs, [...]

Can we now? I thought there were several different proposed schemes, but
none has been officially accepted as standard.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
  Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
  (or something similar)
 
 It would be nice to get his backing, but I think that to do that we would
 have to get a system working, and then show him that the certification is
 in fact meaningful and not Just Another String Of Letters.
 

the main priority, is to get the thing set up, everything else is
secondary.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

"Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I think the money aspect is very important. This isn't YAS,
  it's supposed to
  be a professional qualification for professional programmers.
  300 sounds
  like a good number for me. "If it only costs a fiver then
  what good can it
  be" will be the PHB's attitude, I've seen this often.
 
 Yes, you are right. However, given the, ah, aversity of many perl
 programs to getting certified, I'd like to remove barriers to entry.
 If we can get the 'professional' stamp by sticking names like
 O'Reilly (Or Microsoft - why not?) on the certificates, and then
 charge less, I think that would be better. But if not, then I agree
 a charge (mayb more 50 than 300?!) can have a similar effect.

If we can get the standard for competency accepted as a National
Standard (will take a while), then any training that's based on those
standard will attract government funding for the trainees. Which would
be nice.

-- 
Piers





Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-29 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:26:46PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
 Chris Benson wrote:
  The people in uk.telecom were suggesting a one-off-this-will-hurt-but-
  it'll-only-happen-once change where the entire country moved to 
  () - 
  format
 
 Wouldn't that be rather wasteful? After all, population is distributed
 unevenly. You have some cities with lots of inhabitants, and then you have
 rural areas with a much smaller population density. Does that mean that in
 rural areas, you (a) have an area code covering a *huge* area, or (b) waste
 lots of phone numbers? As I see, it's one or the other.

What's wrong with (a)?  It already happens in (eg) the Highlands, and IIRC
Northern Ireland has just one area code now for the entire province.*

And if you have a big enough address space - and twelve digits is very big
indeed - what's wrong with (b)?

* - BTW, does that mean that all calls within NI are now charged at local
rate?  Can belfast.pm enlighten me on this?

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Philip Newton wrote:
  Unless you translate them to an acceptable set, which is, I 
  believe, where domain i18n is heading. The question is in
  which algorithm to choose for translation.
 
 Right. Which is evil and horrid.
 
 nslookup randomkanji.com
 
 euch.

Yes. Either you have to translate "randomkanji" to "bq--buffy"[2] in your
head or with an appropriate tool, or nslookup will have to be smart
enough[1] to translate "randomkanji" to "bq--buffy" before asking the
resolver library.

Cheers,
Philip

[1] This includes knowing whether you fed it "randomkanji" in EUC-JP, or
ISO-2022-JP, or UTF-8, or KSC-5601, or Yum.
[2] which, incidentally, translates to U+0D0A U+0D5C, or MALAYALAM LETTER
UU UNASSIGNED.
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:32:57AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
  or fail completely.

 Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail. And
 I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...
 
 eval {
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
 $payment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
 do_the_payment_thing($payment_dbh);
 do_the_fulfillment_thing($fulfillment_dbh);
 $payment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("COMMIT");

That is not atomic.  You need to do both COMMITs as one operation.

 }

At this point, your process dies horribly.

 if $@ {
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");

Or for more fun, die horribly here instead.

 $payment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
 }

You need the rdbms to do the rollback itself if the commit fails, or if
a connection times out after a BEGIN TRANSACTION and without a COMMIT
occurring.  You need some way of getting the two systems talking to
each other so that they can synchronise the BEGIN TRANSACTIONs and the
COMMITs.  Ouch.

Can someone remind me why I don't do financial work any more?  Oh yeah :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-29 Thread Chris Benson

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 02:46:48PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:23:12AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
  Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
 You show me a DNS server which supports kanji :-)
 
 This is a big bugbear of mine.  Yes, you can register domains in all these
 weird scripts, but there's bugger all software support for them, and it
 will take *years* to replace all that's out there with new versions.  Look
 at how slowly crypto use is spreading, or how little-used IPv6 is.  IMNSHO,
 the registrars who are hyping their furrin-language domain registrations
 are committing a gross fraud, as registrants are led to believe that their
 new gobbledigook.com will be usable when it ain't.

And according to http://slashdot.org/articles/01/03/28/1755243.shtml

   Xanni writes "Intellectual property claims have blindsided the
Internet Engineering Task Force and could derail the group's efforts
 to develop a common scheme for supporting foreign-language domain
names across the Internet. NWFusion is carrying the story."

Great! get the lawyers involved :-( 

-- 
Chris Benson



Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-29 Thread Chris Benson

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:26:46PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
 Chris Benson wrote:
  () - 
 
 Wouldn't that be rather wasteful? After all, population is distributed

What are you wasting?  Numbers?  What is the cost of extra numbers?  
Some people in small places have to type 8 digits instead of 3.
People in more populous places dial 8 instead of 7 AND DON'T HAVE TO
GET NEW SIGNS, STATIONERY, INFORM ALL CONTACTS EVERY YEAR OR TWO.

 unevenly. You have some cities with lots of inhabitants, and then you have
 rural areas with a much smaller population density. Does that mean that in
 rural areas, you (a) have an area code covering a *huge* area, or (b) waste
 lots of phone numbers? As I see, it's one or the other.

But you end up with the situation we've current got - everything is a 
special case:

* London (after 10? 12? years) back with 1 code (01 - 0[78]1 - 01[78]1
- 020) .

* Variable length area codes means a lookup table containing every code 
because the system doesn't know what's area and what's number ... and 
that table being consulted at every digit.
 
 Having short prefixes with many digits for big places and longer prefixes
 with fewer digits for small places seems to make sense to me. It's how

But it doesn't make for simple/fast/scalable computer programs :-(  

* And when more numbers are needed because of the new business park/housing
estate/... ??   Have you never heard messages like:  "You have called an 
invalid number,  4 digit numbers starting with 5 now have a 62 on the front, 
4 digit number starting with 4 now have 52 on the front,  5 digit numbers 
starting with 2 now have a 7 on the front ...".  Stamford Lincs. has
had several such changes, when I worked there the local printers loved
it: an extra Christmas every other April.

 However, USA and France seem to be doing all right with fixed-length numbers

The US numbering plan worked well for ~50 years, but is now showing signs
of stress: number exhaustion, overlapping area codes, and others.   They are 
looking at alternatives: 4/3/4, 3/4/4, ...  but also appear to be mired 
in UK-like short-termism.

Think ahead, think big: Vint Cerf was thinking big in the late '60s
with 32 bit IP addresses and got it way too small.  He backed 128 bit 
IP addresses in the early '90s.

 And all this has what to do with Buffy?

Keep awake at the back there!

Try dialing "Northumbria Police" on a number pad, it seems a lot 
like the 8uffy code mentioned in another thread :-)  (Using capitalisation
to denote 0/1 bits: oNe BiT eAcH lEtTeR = 010 101 0101 010101 = 01010101,
01010101 = "UU").

-- 
Chris Benson



Re: CPAN Logo

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:


 when did CPAN get a funky new logo ...

 http://www.cpan.org/misc/jpg/cpan.jpg


H

/J\




RE: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Chris Devers

At 12:20 PM 29.3.2001 +0100, Simon Wilcox wrote:
If we can get the 'professional' stamp by sticking names like O'Reilly
(Or Microsoft - why not?) on the certificates, and then charge less, I
think that would be better. But if not, then I agree a charge (maybe 
more 50 than 300?!) can have a similar effect.

Maybe two levels ?

1. Tests as part of a course package are cheap. You already have the 
infrastructure set up and authorised trainers can administer the test.

2. Standalone test are more expensive. You have to have dedicated 
hardware and testing environments. What about getting those guys that do 
the Novell  Microsoft exams [pause for web search] Prometric to do it. 
They already have all the infrastructure.

Well, we aren't exactly as well known as Microsoft or O'Reilly, but my company makes 
test software and could probably be talked into signing on with this. Greg was saying 
he's interested in the UK ( Europe) at this point; we do a little bit of business 
there but are mainly a US (Boston) company now -- I don't know if that is an obstacle 
to you or not. 

The main drawback, if in fact you feel it is a drawback, is that at this point we 
mainly do Windows tests on Windows computers, and most of them are Office related. But 
we do have a Perl test that I helped write (and while it isn't great by any means, I 
hope it's better than the one being used before I helped revise it). We don't really 
get involved in the certification game, but rather provide software that allows 
companies doing such certifications to assess candidates. (Likewise, we provide 
software to temp agencies for similar but non-cert-related reasons.) 

While I'm not really the decision maker here, I would like to push the company in this 
kind of direction. If there is any interest, I can talk to my bosses and see if they 
would want to pursue something with you. 



--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
webmaster work: 781.270.5372
Skillcheck  aol-im: chdevers




Re: CPAN Logo

2001-03-29 Thread Paul Mison

On 29/03/2001 at 16:12 +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
when did CPAN get a funky new logo ...

http://www.cpan.org/misc/jpg/cpan.jpg

When all the #perl regulars got TiPBs [0] and got infected by the Make
Things Look Nice (Macintosh Sub Version) meme?

[0] TiPB =is= a Titanium Powerbook and writing it like that's a
lot better than calling them Tits (and we've done all the jokes
already ta)

--
:: paul
:: this world's crazy, give me the gun





RE: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Chris Devers

At 10:16 AM 29.3.2001 -0500, I wrote:
We don't really get involved in the certification game, but rather 
provide software that allows companies doing such certifications to 
assess candidates. (Likewise, we provide software to temp agencies for 
similar but non-cert-related reasons.) 

Oops, forgot to paste a couple URLs:
http://www.skillcheck.com/products/it/ (crappy page -- no content)
http://www.skillcheck.com/products/general/featben.html
http://www.skillcheck.com/products/general/testmaking.html

Sorry if this is inappropriate. 




--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
webmaster work: 781.270.5372
Skillcheck  aol-im: chdevers




RE: CPAN Logo

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Peterson

  when did CPAN get a funky new logo ...
 
  http://www.cpan.org/misc/jpg/cpan.jpg
 

 H

Indeedy. A logo that on its own gives you no idea that it has anything to do
with Perl. I especially like the use of a completely new font, rather than
the one used on O'Reilly books.

H




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-29 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, you wrote:

 Yes. Either you have to translate "randomkanji" to "bq--buffy"[2] in your
 head or with an appropriate tool, or nslookup will have to be smart
 enough[1] to translate "randomkanji" to "bq--buffy" before asking the
 resolver library.

err [1] unlikely to happen because its deprecated as of BIND-tools version
9.1

you are apparently supposed to use dig or host .. my feeling is that
nslookup is too easy to use and useful so they decided to deprecate it to
make it harder for non BIND gurus to be able to tell wahts going on ...


--  
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-29 Thread pmh

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:37:38 -0800, Nathan Torkington wrote:
 Greg McCarroll wrote:
  sure it makes sense, but it still is CiP and trust me this isn't
  the only bit of CiP in here and much kudos to Paul for it ;-)
 
 I'm unsure what CiP is, but if it has anything to do with gnarliness,
 I know that Paul wrote a 1k regexp to parse XML correctly.  It only
 fails one test from a real XML parsing package, and he tracked that
 to the limitations of the new RE stuff in 5.6.0.

Here's what I use, which probably isn't what most people would think of when they hear 
"XML parser", but it does let me extract the bits I generally want. I wouldn't give 
this a CiP rating, but then I know how it works.

# xml_parse($xml,$tag)
# Return the contents of any $tags appearing in $xml
# Returns an arrayref of hashrefs of attributes, content in {__content__}
# If $tag eq '*', returns all tags, element names in {__element__}
# This is pretty simple, and assumes the following:
#attributes match \w+
#all attributes have double-quoted values
#there are no CDATA[[]] sections
#end tags don't have attributes
#$xml is otherwise well-formed
sub xml_parse{
  my($xml,$_tag)=@_;
  my $tag=$_tag eq '*' ? '[\w:-]+' : "\Q$_tag\E";

  # Remove comments
  $xml=~s/!--.*?--//gs;

  # Extract tags
  my @tags;
  pos $xml=0; # Reset /g position
  while($xml=~m#\G.*?($tag)\b#gs){
my $tag=$1;
my %tag;
$tag{__element__}=$tag if $_tag eq '*';

while($xml=~m#\G\s+(\w+)="([^"]*)"#gc){
  $tag{$1}=$2;
}
if($xml=~m#\G\s*/#gc){
  # There's no content
}else{
  # Get the content
  $xml=~m#\G\s*#gc or next; # Next means not well formed
  my $level=1;
  while(1){
if($xml=~m#\G((?:(?!/?\s*\Q$tag\E\b).)+)#gcs){
  # More content
  $tag{__content__}.=$1;
}elsif($xml=~m#\G(/\s*\Q$tag\E\s*)#gc){
  # End tag
  if(--$level){
$tag{__content__}.=$1;
  }else{
last;
  }
}elsif($xml=~m#\G(\s*\Q$tag\E\b([^]*))#gc){
  # Start tag
  $tag{__content__}.=$1;
  ++$level unless (my $tmp=$2)=~m#/\s*$#;
}else{
  # We must have reached the end of the string, so it's not well formed
  last;
}
  }
}
push @tags,\%tag;
  }

  \@tags;
}


-- 
Peter Haworth   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 "I think there's a problem with the server power supply"
 "Why?"
 "There were flames coming out of the cooling fan until it stopped."



Re: Perl Auto-RPC

2001-03-29 Thread Leon Brocard

[EMAIL PROTECTED] sent the following bits through the ether:

 Here's what I use, which probably isn't what most people would think
 of when they hear "XML parser"

Indeed. This is because it doesn't parse XML.

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... The worst thing about censorship is XX 



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Chris Devers

At 04:42 AM 29.3.2001 -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 O'Reilly wil like it cos they get to sell 'Perl For PCSE(stage 1)' 
 etc ..

Ooh. I think you've just given me an idea for my next book :)

"Gary Numan's guide to the PCSE"... 

;)




--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-29 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, you wrote:
  Yes. Either you have to translate "randomkanji" to "bq--buffy"[2] in your
  head or with an appropriate tool, or nslookup will have to be smart
  enough[1] to translate "randomkanji" to "bq--buffy" before asking the
  resolver library.
 err [1] unlikely to happen because its deprecated as of BIND-tools version
 9.1

oh, how crap.

 you are apparently supposed to use dig or host .. my feeling is that
 nslookup is too easy to use and useful so they decided to deprecate it to
 make it harder for non BIND gurus to be able to tell wahts going on ...

It's not easy to use, but it has better error reporting than the default
host(1) command. I think it really is time to switch to using adnshost
more...

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
The  Universe  shipped by  weight, not by  volume.  Some  expansion of the
contents may have occurred during shipment.




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Tony Bowden wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:07:01PM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
  4.46 Nick Cleaton
  4.46 Maurice Buxton
  Coo, I'm on 4.46 as well.

 Me four.

 Although they seem to have lost my score.

 I have a nice shiny certificate though ...


Nick say's he has a nice shiny certificate as well - I have one 'Saying
Certified Perl Master' but they appear to have lost my score - it was
about tow years ago I took the test 

I took the free Korn Shell one and got 3.85 just before lunch which was
pretty impressive as I was beginning to get impatient after about 15 out
of 40 questions.

/J\




Re: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Dean Wilson

I think the money aspect is very important. This isn't YAS, it's supposed
to
be a professional qualification for professional programmers. 300 sounds
like a good number for me. "If it only costs a fiver then what good can it
be" will be the PHB's attitude, I've seen this often.

The important difference here is that you have the cost of the course and
the cost of the exam as separate items. Let NetThink charge 2000 for a
weeks course that corporate interests can see but remember to have a
separate 45-60 for each exam. That way you don't need corporate sponsorship
just to get one of these. I don't know if it fits in with the other idea's
but one of the things I'd like is the ability to just walk into a training
centre, book an appointment and then do the exam the next day, no trying to
get a week off work, no major fees just the exam.

If you force people to do an expensive training course you lose alot of
appeal.

Dean
--





Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, David H. Adler wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:07:28AM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
  On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
  
   And I realise that my description yesterday was slightly inaccurate.
   I said it would parse Perl approximately. A better description would be
   that it parses approximate Perl.
  
 
  Thus making the phrase 'you can't make up any old shit and expect it to
  work' redundant ?

 The canonical phrasing (mjd in his guise as RETARDO): YOU CAN'T JUST
 MAKE SHIT UP AND EXPECT THE COMPUTER TO MAGICALLY KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN!


Yeah, thats what I meant. Cheers Dave.

/J\




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Do you really think we'd get that lucky? No we get hit with the charge for a
 national call even though it's all in the one area code. They just divide it
 with codes for each area, so Belfast in 02890 whilst Lisburn is 02892.
 

I didn't call my family for 4 weeks because of this, eventually my mother
decided to go to the expense of calling my mobile, what can i say?
she's from Ballymena.

Greg (who realises very few people will understand that)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Dean Wilson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 I think the money aspect is very important. This isn't YAS, it's supposed
 to
 be a professional qualification for professional programmers. 300 sounds
 like a good number for me. "If it only costs a fiver then what good can it
 be" will be the PHB's attitude, I've seen this often.
 
 The important difference here is that you have the cost of the course and
 the cost of the exam as separate items. Let NetThink charge 2000 for a
 weeks course that corporate interests can see but remember to have a
 separate 45-60 for each exam. That way you don't need corporate sponsorship

i was thinking of an even lower price, that companies like NetThink
could just swallow up (they could put it down to marketting costs
or materials or some shit)

 just to get one of these. I don't know if it fits in with the other idea's
 but one of the things I'd like is the ability to just walk into a training

well that was why i was going to suggest on the UKROI perl certification
mailing list that we try and have it ready for the summer and do
free certification exams at YAPC::Europe as a public launch 

naturally this is subject to the perl-cert committee and YAPC::Europe
committee and making it from my hotel to the conference without
stopping off for a quick cup of coffee ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: upgrading, and modules

2001-03-29 Thread Nicholas Clark

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:33:40PM +0100, jo walsh wrote:
 
 i'm about to upgrade state51's production server's perl and mod_perl to
 5.6, and it occurs to me that 5.6.1 might be due out RSN.
 
 question is, will i have to rebuild modules built for 5.6 so they'll work
 with 5.6.1?

I would be very surprised if you did have to if you configure with the
same options.

 if i had to rebuild modules, i'd try to justify waiting, if the wait for
 5.6.1's not going to be more than a week or two - is that hopelessly
 optimistic? oh, it is, isn't it *sigh*

It may not be hopelessly optimistic

 i tried asking #perl but they were, um, inarticulate
 
 any advice *much* apprec

I'd suggest that you get 5.6.1-TRIAL3 from GSAR's CPAN directory, build
that somewhere away from production, and see what happens.
Sarathy has said on p5p that there's going to be very little changed
between TRIAL3 and the real thing

Nicholas Clark
-- 
ENOJOB: http://plum.flirble.org/~nick/CV.html



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:33:59AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Have you thought about charging structures, SAP charge about 300gbp to take
  a certification exam, and they offer courses that are specifically designed
 
 i had thought about a 20 quid fee to be sent to YAS

I think (although I'm not sure) Greg sees the plan working the same way as
I do: we (the various trainers involved) provide training courses at our
usual rates which *prepare* the student to take an exam for a nominal fee
to gain accreditation. (ie, training courses don't include or substitute
for the exam.)

-- 
FAILURE:
When Your Best Just Isn't Good Enough

http://www.despair.com



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

Bzzt. That was to do with ANSI certification.

-- 
"You can have my Unix system when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers."



Re: Buffycode (was Re: That book)

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:45:23AM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
proposes the creation of a Parse::Perl::Approx module :)
^^
   
   What does it do?
  
  It, er... parses Perl.

Strictly speaking it doesn't do anything, due to not currently existing.

 ooh! I though only perl parsed perl.. how exactly does it parse perl...

A man who needs to go to my Parsing Perl talk at TPC!

-- 
Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is his twin brother.
- Kahlil Gibran



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:25:38AM +0100, Lucy McWilliam wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:48:05PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  ok it looks like PO
   .. or the anchor!
 
 Do either do real ale?

PO has a Cask Marque and is listed in CAMRA's 2001 Good Beer Guide.

So, uh, yes.

Incidentally, I'm setting up a real ale review page. Send real ale reviews
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Spring Cascade today at the Orange Brewery brewpub
in Pimlico. Not a bad beer.)

-- 
"On a normal ascii line, the only safe condition to detect is a 'BREAK'
- everything else having been assigned functions by Gnu EMACS."
(By Tarl Neustaedter)



Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-29 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Simon Cozens wrote:
   (Spring Cascade today at the Orange Brewery brewpub
 in Pimlico. Not a bad beer.)

I thought you were in Wales...

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
The power to destroy a planet is insignificant  when compared to the power
of the Force.   -- Darth Vader




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David H. Adler

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:00:46PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Tony Bowden wrote:
 
  On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:07:01PM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
   4.46 Nick Cleaton
   4.46 Maurice Buxton
   Coo, I'm on 4.46 as well.
 
  Me four.
 
  Although they seem to have lost my score.
 
  I have a nice shiny certificate though ...
 
 
 Nick say's he has a nice shiny certificate as well - I have one 'Saying
 Certified Perl Master' but they appear to have lost my score - it was
 about tow years ago I took the test 

I'm a Certified Perl Druid.  I outrank you. :-)

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
For the Forth aficionados reading this column, I offer my idea of the
ideal bumper sticker:  "YOU FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN."
 - Chip Salzenberg, in The Perl Journal #12