Re: t-shirts

2001-02-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 09:53:24PM +, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
  We've been talking about t-shirts on irc, and I think we should try
  to get some ideas together[1]. Some thoughts to start you off:
  Pony::Pony
 Only if it has the open sourced code of the module on the back :)

I think Mr Clamp has been doing initial development on this, but
has not yet released his code.

Michael



Re: DMP Availability

2001-02-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 10:34:06AM -, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 * There are currently 100 copies in Europe.
 * Another (larger) shipment from Manning ended up in Singapore somehow! They
 will return at some point in the next week.
 * The large Charing Cross Road bookshops (Foyles, Blackwells, Waterstones)
 should all have 3 or 4 copies now.
 * Amazon had (we think) 10 copies. Don't know how many they've sold.

There are two copies here. I *think* they both came from amazon.

Michael



Re: t-shirts

2001-02-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:24:46PM +, Richard Clamp wrote:
  I think Mr Clamp has been doing initial development on this, but
  has not yet released his code.
 Okay, it's pre pre alpha, it does nothing, and it's not even an
 very good way of doing the nothing it does.

Perhaps a sourceforge project to allow open collaboration? :)

Michael



Re: t-shirts

2001-02-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:29:45PM +, Richard Clamp wrote:
 Or the london.pm server, on which we could do straight cvs, or even
 install the lumbering beast that is sourceforge.
 I nominate dadadodo as the pumpking for this.

I think he should collaborate with dipsy.

Michael



Re: Class::DBI + job posting

2001-02-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 01:31:42PM -, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 Class::DBI looks groovy. Does anyone know why it might not be?

Doesn't work in 5.004_04. This may be a problem in some situations.

Michael



t-shirts

2001-02-21 Thread Michael Stevens

We've been talking about t-shirts on irc, and I think we should try
to get some ideas together[1]. Some thoughts to start you off:

Hash Bang Perl

Pony::Pony

PIMB (we've done this one)

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US

Michael

[1] disclaimer in advance: unofficial ideas, not a project of the
london perl mongers group, not endorsed by anyone ever. I promise not
to be organised in any way, and make no commitment whatsoever.



Re: t-shirts

2001-02-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:43:34PM +, Paul Mison wrote:
 On 21/02/2001 at 12:26 +, Michael Stevens wrote:
 ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
 
 and they were disposable. This sort of meme just does the rounds too
 rapidly. I mean, how much would you laugh at someone wearing a 'I am
 Mahir, Kiss Me Now' or whatever it was tshirt now?

You've got it! We need dissolving t-shirts!

Michael



Re: t-shirts

2001-02-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:57:00PM +, Dave Thorn wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:53:55PM +, Struan Donald wrote:
  surely just t-shirts with editable text?
 T-shirts with a velcro strip and a bad of letters that stick.
 Available now at GAP
 dave, no I haven't been in there

Now if someone would just invent print-on lcd panels...

Michael



DMP

2001-02-20 Thread Michael Stevens

amazon uk have started shipping data munging with perl. I have my
copy.

Michael



trains

2001-02-14 Thread Michael Stevens

Last night I cunningly managed to get off the tube at stratford, get
halfway out of the station, and then realise I don't actually
live in Stratford.

Michael



Re: Last Night

2001-02-02 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:27:17AM +, David Cantrell wrote:
 On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 05:43:27AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
  I hope that everyone who turned up last night had a good time - I 
  certainly did (that may, of course, have something to do with the fact
  that I was drinking for the first time for a month).
  I'd be interested in any opinions that people had about the venue as
  I'm still looking for a new home for our social meetings.
 I wasn't impressed.  It suffered from all the same problems as PO, but was
 even noisier.
 I'm going to find out if we can have the upstairs bar of the Albemarle on
 Dover St.  It's sufficiently small that we should be able to have it to
 ourselves, but sufficiently large that we won't be crowded.  They do good
 beer and I'm fairly certain they do food in the evenings.

And the TVRs weren't cheap.

Somewhere with decently priced food would be good.

Michael



Re: Mailing List Stuff

2001-02-02 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:34:15PM +, Robin Houston wrote:
  what is it with ponys?
 I've wondered that too.
 Seems to be a #perl obsession...

purl pony [12:39]
[purl] pony is replyGimme a Pony! Pony! Pony! Pony Pony Pony! Pony Pony Pony!
   Pony Pony Pony! Pony Pony Pony! Pony Pony Pony! Pony Pony Pony! Pony
   Pony Pony!

Michael



Re: Bad programming considered harmless

2001-02-02 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:25:09PM -, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 No, I disagree. This is like a mechanic saying "You really oughtn't to
 change your own oil, oil is very important, if you get it wrong you could
 really damage your engine, that sort of thing should be left to a qualified
 mechanic". It's complete crap. Changing the oil in car is not that hard.
 Until recently, most car owners would expect to do it themselves, along with
 changing spark plugs and various other tasks.

My problem with some of the CGI stuff is that it sounds like the
equivalent of a mechanic saying "well, when changing oil, it's not
that important what you put in - any oily liquid will work"[1].

You might happen to end up with a car that runs, but it's still not the
advice people should be giving out...

Michael

[1] I Am Not A Mechanic. if this is not actually a silly idea, imagine
I suggested something else that is.



Re: Perl Books

2001-02-02 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:16:06AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
 Benjamin Holzman [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
 *On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:57:20AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
 * Meaning, nobody's really a complete idiot and we'd seem just as dumb
 * if we called brain surgery tech support, new mother tech support, or
 * even gardening tech support.
 *True, but there aren't many people who will assume that they can perform
 *brain surgery just because they successfully applied a band-aid to a paper
 *cut the week before.
 True, but I don't think anyone is going to die from writing crappy CGIs v.
 hacking at someones grey cells with a scalpel. 

Gardening tech support is perhaps a better example. Not sure.

I've managed to keep pot plants alive but I don't go round thinking I'm
a gardener.

Michael



Re: Bad programming considered harmless

2001-02-02 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:33:24AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
 Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
 *My problem with some of the CGI stuff is that it sounds like the
 *equivalent of a mechanic saying "well, when changing oil, it's not
 *that important what you put in - any oily liquid will work"[1].
 You could try corn syrup...once. :)

"Corn syrup" still sounds like something that would taste of wheat. I
was talking to someone on a talker about this today, but they said they hadn't
found anything in the UK yet that included it, so I have no reference
whatsoever for what it is, apart from the fact I'm told it's sugary.

(apparently some countries put it in cola).

(pedantry: There *are* applications where bad programming could kill. I
don't think any of us work in them, but I'm pretty sure they exist.)

Michael



Re: irc problems

2001-02-01 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:28:37AM +, Neil Ford wrote:
 I can't get onto any of rhizomatic.net. Is anyone else having problems?
 Michael
 we're all there fine
 in actuall fact as I type this you've just appeared :-)

Having now got on I can state the problem was a complete inability to
get rhizomatic dns.

Michael



irc problems

2001-02-01 Thread Michael Stevens

I can't get onto any of rhizomatic.net. Is anyone else having problems?

Michael



Re: irc problems

2001-02-01 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:35:47AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 Ahem. Didn't they learn _anything_ from Microsoft?
 IRC's IP, anyone?

london.rhizomatic.net is also www.astray.com is 195.82.114.160



Re: website directory access

2001-02-01 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 01:02:03PM -, Robert Shiels wrote:
 Well, publishing username/passwords to everyone who needs them is trickey,
 and getting people to remember them is also hard.
 
 For example, I took family photos, I want the whole family to look at them,
 and anyone else who they give the link to, but my mum has enough trouble
 connecting to the internet without remembering new usernames and passwords.

You could give out urls with the usernames and passwords in?

Michael



Re: Amazon Sales Rank

2001-02-01 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 08:35:10AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 Data Munging with Perl
 by David Cross
 Amazon.com Sales Rank: 760
 Blimey, how did that happen? Yesterday it was 87,867!

Now if they'd just actually send me the copy I ordered...

(I think they said 3-5 weeks)

Michael



Re: website directory access

2001-02-01 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 02:24:08PM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
 Michael Stevens wrote:
  You could give out urls with the usernames and passwords in?
 Were you thinking of
 http://username:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/pics/drunkenperlmongers.jpg ? No
 such thing; RTFRFC for more info.

Being somewhat practical, they do tend to work.

Michael



Re: Amazon Sales Rank

2001-02-01 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 08:52:02AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
  Now if they'd just actually send me the copy I ordered...
  (I think they said 3-5 weeks)
 Did you order it from amazon.co.uk? amazon.com have it stock and are
 sending it out now. It'll be another couple of weeks before it hits
 the amazon.co.uk warehouse.

Yeah - amazon.co.uk. It's part of a larger order and I'm probably going
to just wait until it all ships...

Michael



Re: Meeting Reminder

2001-01-31 Thread Michael Stevens

On Tue, Jan 30, 2001 at 11:18:24PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
 Simon Wistow sent the following bits through the ether:
  Conveniently close to Cynthia's Cyberbar.
 No, please god, no! Can't we just try and forget this excuse for a
 bar?[1]

But the mirrors! Don't forget the mirrors!



the list

2001-01-31 Thread Michael Stevens

It's oh so quiet.

After recent activity this is somewhat disconcerting.

Michael



Re: the list

2001-01-31 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 12:04:54PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  It's oh so quiet.
  After recent activity this is somewhat disconcerting.
 everyone is probably reading up on ruby in preparation for it
 taking over the world

Surely you mean python?

(I kinda like python)

Michael



Re: .emacs

2001-01-30 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 07:53:00PM +, Mark Fowler wrote:
 I like my .emacs file.  It sets nice fonts and colours, and sets the
 editing mode and wrapping mode of choice ;-)
 
 I'm sure it can do more...
 
  1) Where do I find handy things to put into my .emacs file on the web?
  2) Got any nice bits of your .emacs file to share?
 
 Note that (shock, horror) I can't program lisp properly (duh, I program
 perl) so that I may sound stupid when it comes to these things.

The real trick is trying to write something portable between emacs
and xemacs. Anyway...

;; inhibit annoying messages
(setq inhibit-startup-echo-area-message t)
(setq inhibit-startup-message t)

;; set general defaults
(setq tab-width 2)
(setq indent-tabs-mode nil)
(setq initial-major-mode 'text-mode)
(setq default-major-mode 'text-mode)

;; add my libraries to load-path
(setq load-path
  (append (list (expand-file-name "~michaels/etc/emacs"))
  load-path))

p4.el available from http://www.dsmit.com/p4/ is kinda nice if you're
working with perforce.

Michael



Re: .emacs

2001-01-30 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 07:53:00PM +, Mark Fowler wrote:
 I like my .emacs file.  It sets nice fonts and colours, and sets the
 editing mode and wrapping mode of choice ;-)
 I'm sure it can do more...
  1) Where do I find handy things to put into my .emacs file on the web?
  2) Got any nice bits of your .emacs file to share?
 Note that (shock, horror) I can't program lisp properly (duh, I program
 perl) so that I may sound stupid when it comes to these things.

;; working for me to get unix line endings on a win32 system
(set-default-coding-systems 'undecided-unix)

;; I like auto-fill when I'm editing text. usually
(add-hook 'text-mode-hook 'auto-fill-mode)

;; show me the region selected right now
(setq transient-mark-mode t)

Michael



Re: LAMP Stuff

2001-01-29 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 08:52:37AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 O'Reilly have launched a new site discussing LAMP (Linux, Apache,
 MySQL, Perl/Python/PHP) web development. Most of the current content
 seems to be links to existing O'Reilly Network content (e.g. perl.com),
 but it's a interesting start. And good to see the term being given
 credence by someone like O'Reilly.
 Dave...
 [who is glad he still has the lampmagic domains!]

And the url is?

Michael

(I had a quick look at ora.com but I couldn't see anything obvious)



Re: Passwords

2001-01-29 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:30:07PM -, Robert Shiels wrote:
 I just wanted to ask a brief question about passwords.
 I have access to about 10 SAP systems in my work at the moment, and all of
 them require a password, and these passwords all expire after 60 days. This
 will happen at random times depending on when I actually try to logon. So  I
 have the potential of having 10 different passwords. And I get locked out of
 the system after 3 bad password tries (as sysadmin I can unlock myself, but
 it's a pain, and also as sysadmin, I need to unlock other people all the
 time).
 My question is, Why is automatic password expiry a good idea?
 It's a pain, and encourages bad password management. I'll probably log onto
 each system every 60 days and set them all to the same one.

Not that I necessarily agree with what this says, it's definately interesting
and worth thinking about:

Security and Human Factors
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001126.html

Michael



Re: Technical Meeting Venues

2001-01-29 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 02:41:38PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 i assume odd beer is a typo and you mean't odd beers, i.e. an odd number
 of beers ( i've also decided that 1 is not an odd number )
 seriously, i'm sure everyone would welcome you with open arms

We are perl.

you will be assimiliated.

Michael



Re: .emacs

2001-01-29 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 07:53:00PM +, Mark Fowler wrote:
 I like my .emacs file.  It sets nice fonts and colours, and sets the
 editing mode and wrapping mode of choice ;-)
 I'm sure it can do more...
  1) Where do I find handy things to put into my .emacs file on the web?
  2) Got any nice bits of your .emacs file to share?
 Note that (shock, horror) I can't program lisp properly (duh, I program
 perl) so that I may sound stupid when it comes to these things.

I have a massive emacs setup of multi-pleasure that's been mouldering
for about two-three years.

Maybe I should resurrect it.

Michael



Re: Fwd: [mengerin@deja.com: [?] Template Toolkit]

2001-01-29 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:31:30PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
  I got the following email in response to my TT2 article. I know nothing
  about EmbPerl so I can't really answer these points. Does anyone who has
  used EmbPerl have any ammo that I can use in my reply?
 Embperl is entirely Apache and web based, which is good for some
 things and bad for some things, like having the template wotsit work
 orthogonally to everything else.

It's definately entirely web based, but I have cron jobs using embperl
to generate html email that goes to various people without ever going
near apache...

Michael



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:18:06AM +, Greg Cope wrote:
  How about a decently built rack mount PC running Debian[1], by
  someone who actually knows how to setup that particular OS decently,
  as compared with a Sun box running Solaris setup by someone good
  with solaris?
  
  (And, myself, I'd recommend the PC for some situations, and the Solaris box
  for others).
  
  My main problem with the PC architecture is that you can do a lot by carefully
  picking a good manufacturer, but it's still fundamentally not as solid and
  consistent as sun stuff, IMHO.
  
  I imagine you could get a pc service contract on the same level as
  Sun do, but I have no experience in the area. Has anyone got any experience
  paying vast amounts of money for PC support? did you get much for your
  money?
  
  Michael
  
  [1] OS changed on the grounds I feel that Redhat ships something more
  optimised towards desktop use, whereas I feel Debian and Solaris are both
  more suited for servers.
 
 
 Would this still hold for a RedDrat system with all the X stuff and
 other unncessary stuff removed ?
 
 And if not - what else do you you think is different ?
 
 I've a small shell script that does quite a bit of rpm -e (remove) on X
 stuff / other druff that redhat installs by default - it would be nice
 if they included a stripped down install class in their default install
 - which left you with a basic machine 

IMHO the main significance here is in the default install. You can
fiddle around with anything if you want and make it vaguely sensible as a
server.

Redhat as default is not very well setup to use as a server on the internet
(I feel). Debian I think is a lot better as shipped, as is Solaris,
mostly on the grounds they're less prone to installing irrelevant
crap[1].

Michael

[1] My solaris admin experience is almost completely nonexistent, but I'd
drawing on my experience as a user of solaris systems.



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:19:02AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:07:02AM +, Michael Stevens typed:
 I imagine you could get a pc service contract on the same level as
 Sun do, but I have no experience in the area. Has anyone got any experience
 paying vast amounts of money for PC support? did you get much for your
 money?
 Dell offer this on some of their servers. IMHO this is always a waste of
 money - they don't provide anything that you couldn't do yourself by
 having a stock of spare parts and someone competent on call.

I don't really like most big name linux stuff, because all they seem to
support is Redhat, and while I can completely understand their reasons,
I find it almost impossible to make a Redhat system into something that I
like.

Michael



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:30:03AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:23:26AM +, Michael Stevens typed:
 On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:19:02AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
  Dell offer this on some of their servers. IMHO this is always a waste of
  money - they don't provide anything that you couldn't do yourself by
  having a stock of spare parts and someone competent on call.
 I don't really like most big name linux stuff, because all they seem to
 support is Redhat, and while I can completely understand their reasons,
 I find it almost impossible to make a Redhat system into something that I
 like.
 
 Agreed entirely. I was thinking purely of hardware support; software
 support IME is always and everywhere a complete waste of time and money.
 
 And then people wonder why I like open source...

I've heard rumours that software support can be useful, but not yet
encountered such a thing.

Michael



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:30:28AM +, Struan Donald wrote:
 on the other hand kickstart files aren't that tricky to write and you
 can then set up the box in a sensible way (or something approaching
 that) and it's very easy to set up a chunk of boxes the same. 
 
 of course you a box to put the kcikstart stuff on (assuming network
 install...)

Isn't kickstart a solaris thing, or have redhat developed new stuff
I didn't know about?

If it is just a solaris thing, I was holding up solaris boxes as being
GOOD because they don't come with much stuff installed. For servers,
I see this as a desirable feature.

One of these days I must play with the FAI (fully automatic installation)
stuff for debian.

Michael



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:39:17AM +, Struan Donald wrote:
  One of these days I must play with the FAI (fully automatic installation)
  stuff for debian.
 kickstart is (i assume) teh redhat equiv of FAI. or at least it is if
 FAI is stick floppy in system, create symlink in some magic format i
 can't quite remember on kickstart server and reboot box. go and make
 beverage of choice, come back to newly installed box.

They sound similiar.

Google reveals that what I was thinking of was Jumpstart, which is the
solaris approach to all this.

I think the FAI stuff will work with remote boot roms on the network
cards if you want to do that, too.

I don't have any info but I think FAI is fairly immature.

I just prefer a small system which makes it easy to install what you
want rather than a big one where you have to remove stuff.

I dunno.

Michael



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:16:52PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:

There's very little off-topic on this list :)

 Kickstart is RedHat
 
 http://wwwcache.ja.net/dev/kickstart/KickStart-HOWTO.html
 
 Jumpstart is Solaris
  
 Both are automated install procedures.

Yes. I have learnt.

  If it is just a solaris thing, I was holding up solaris boxes as being
  GOOD because they don't come with much stuff installed. For servers,
  I see this as a desirable feature.
 
 Whatever system I use (linux or solaris) I find they come with far too
 much stuff installed.  Solaris is a bad offender as well with Thai X
 Windows fonts and that CDE junk as well.  No I don't want power
 management or true-type fonts on a server thank you Mr Joy.

My only install of solaris has been on a 486, but IIRC you get a decent
amount of flexibility over what does, and does not, go in.

 Any system, irrespective of OS or distribution, I tend to totally
 strip down out of all junk.  Binary package managers [1] tend to help a
 lot with this (yes RPM can be good especially the -e flag). 
 
 This is what the Hells Angels did with their Harleys, strip them
 ("chop") down the bare essentials before starting work.
 
 I then customise them by installing all the real GNU programs (and
 checking all the configuration options before building) you need like
 emacs, rcs, gcc, perl etc (and the DJB stuff) under /usr/local and
 killing that evil inetd program (a nice simple way of securing your
 system).
 If you follow this then you should be able to make a useable UNIX
 system from any system (maybe even SCO if you were that insane).

This is reminding me of our talk of the ROPE thing - drop in packages
that turn any system into something usable for a particular application.

 [1] My main gripe with *BSD is lack of binary package management

It's been a while since I BSD'd much, but I definately remember installing
binary packages for many things on OpenBSD.

Michael



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:40:13AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
 *Oh, agreed entirely. The key thing is that nobody _expects_ a professional
 *support service, so they're less disappointed when it doesn't happen.
 I don't think this is true for the great majority of software end-users
 out there. They expect documentation and some sort of answer/FAQ whatnot
 to their questions and those that don't have the bare minimum will
 probably fail in the public arena.

Can anyone point to actual studies of the "we took some end users, and
found they wanted FOO amounts of documentation". And, for completeness,
"we took some end users, looked at what they were actually using, and
then looked at how much documentation was available for those products"?

Michael



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:00AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
 Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
 *I personally would have just as little faith in Solaris run by someone
 *who didn't know what they were doing as I would in Redhat run by
 *someone who didn't know what they were doing.
 I would have more faith in Solaris. On an acadmeic network, no firewalls,
 we had user workstations that pretty much lived on their own and at the
 mercy of their users. One day, one of the AI profs installed RedHat after
 most of us had left the computing dept...we heard that someone hacked into
 said linux box and sniffed the entire dept. passwords. 

Were the solaris boxes setup by the same people who setup the redhat boxes
tho, or were two different people adminning them?

The scenario I'm guessing is:

a) solaris workstations setup by sysadmin, left on their own. users
don't have root.

b) redhat box setup by AI prof, left on own. users don't have root.

But that's just my guess from common practice at the university I've
attended. If this *is* the case, and the sysadmins have more experience
than the AI prof, the two cases aren't comparable, because they don't
both not know what they're doing.

 perhaps Linux gives people a sense of adventure or something, but Solaris
 in the last few years has become quite good at running well in spite of
 the chimps at the keyboard. 

I'm working on the theory that everybody gets root exploits. Therefore,
no matter what it is, if you don't patch it for 6 months / a year,
it'll be exploitable.

We need a decent way to work out the difference between "box A is more
hackable than box B", and "box A is more likely to get hacked than box B,
due the type of exploits people tend to try". I suspect without detailed
evidence skr1pt k1dd1es are more likely to go for redhat. 

Redhat is perhaps more likely to have security bugs spotted due to (I'm
guessing here), more installations in the world. Perhaps not.

I certainly have a *perception* more security issues are found in redhat
than in most other linux and unix (eg solaris) distributions.

And can't we have an discussion about which OS is best without bashing
a particular one all time? [1]

 *How about a decently built rack mount PC running Debian[1], by
 *someone who actually knows how to setup that particular OS decently,
 *as compared with a Sun box running Solaris setup by someone good
 *with solaris?
 I have a farm of suns, if you want to make a benchmark, I'll be very
 interested to run and compare the results.

I'm not interested in performance numbers. No. I like. I *am* interested
in performance numbers, but not right now. And I'm fairly sure big sun
boxes go significantly bigger and better than big pcs. This is one of the
advantages of Sun.

More interesting would be stuff like "redhat gets x security problems per
year, solaris has y problems", "we see x exploit attempts specific to
redhat, y specific to solaris", "on this metric of well-adminstered-ness,
these sets of sun boxes were found to have these numbers. this other set
of redhat boxes were found to have these other numbers".

I suspect a number of these issues could be found by someone reading bugtraq
more carefully than I do - I remember some of these types of stats being
discussed.

Michael

[1] Ok, yes, most of us suck here when the other OS is windows.



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:59:08AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
 Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
 *Isn't kickstart a solaris thing, or have redhat developed new stuff
 *I didn't know about?
 Jumpstart. 

yes, I found that out, my memory sucks.



Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 06:04:07PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:00AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
  Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:

I take that post back. I don't think it would be productive to
continue the discussion.

Michael



Re: Dumb-assed question

2001-01-25 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 06:02:25PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Dreamweaver (I know, don't ask) nicely escapes the spaces to %20 but when
   I try and download these, the %20 appears in the Netscape file save as box
   instead of spaces.

Dreamweaver is by far the best GUI html development tool I'm aware of.

Michael



Re: Dream weaver

2001-01-25 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:09:15AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Pretty much !
 
 Having started the web site project here without much knowledge of developing
 websites (having mostly been doing corporate network support before that) I
 allowed the designer to choose the tools. I chose apache/mod_perl for the
 backend because I wanted to learn more about perl  apache. Perhaps not the best
 rationale but hey, it's my project :-)
 
 We now have a site with lots of html files full of dreamweaver tags which are
 very easy to mess up with a text editor so we tend to stick to DW and keep the
 hand editing to a minimum.
 
 Having learned LOTS in the last year, we are planning to rebuild the site to
 separate the templates from the content because content management is becoming a
 pain. Naturally we will be doing this with perl.
 
 So - Dreamweaver is a good gui editor but it generates files which are difficult
 to maintain. It is good for those who are not technically minded but probably
 not the best choice if you have technical skills available.
 We will ditch DW in the new version of the site.

I think there's a lot of potential for manipulating dreamweaver's markup
and file structures from perl. I've been able to write CGI scripts
that do stuff like. 

print STDOUT get_library_component('componentname');

and fetch and include stuff from dreamweaver at the appropriate place.

I think there's a lot of potential in this sort of approach but I've not
heard of anyone exploiting it.

Michael

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Re: Dream weaver

2001-01-25 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:32:46PM -, Matthews Simon wrote:
 As someone who's been using templates and perl to do web sites since January
 96 I can see both sides of the argument.  We (perl people) are all much
 happier with the idea of building pages from bits it appeals to our
 laziness.  There are however end users to consider.  Much as I have tried I
 cannot get the marketing droids to use vim and templates.  They seem to have
 a real problem with this.  Our solution to this has been to write some perl
 code to convert Word documents (marketers tool of choice) into
 Template::Toolkit templates that we use internally.  This makes us all happy
 :-)

I would actually be interested to hear from someone on the
Dreamweaver side of this argument...

Anyone?

Michael



Re: Dream weaver

2001-01-25 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:43:47PM -, Mark Kitching wrote:
 I would actually be interested to hear from someone on the
 Dreamweaver side of this argument...
 Anyone?
 Michael
 I'd love to but the last time I spoke about Dreamweaver with Dave Cross
 around
 it turned into a LOOONG lunchtime.

I'm not seeing the flaw yet...

Michael



Re: Mailing List Archive

2001-01-25 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:20:28PM +, Dave Cross wrote:
 From the discussion on IRC, it seems that Leon's summary mail has opened
 a bit of a can of worms. There are a number of people who don't like the
 idea of a publically advertised archive of this mailing list.

For the record, I don't like the idea.



Re: Stupid Email

2001-01-24 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:32:58AM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
 There was a moral in this story but I forgot it in the process of
 rambling on.  Probably something about munging Reply-To, or putting
 all middle management up against a wall and shooting them (which ICL
 did a short while later).

Was this simple yet violent process found to be of benefit to the
company?

michael



Re: odd -w effect

2001-01-24 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:35:17PM -, Robert Shiels wrote:
 Let's be kind to the poor Windows users, encouraging them with the lure of
 free powerful software;  once they get a taste for it they'll be begging you
 to help them get Linux installed as a dual boot on their home machines, then
 as they get used to it and driver support gets better they'll find
 themselves booting Linux more than Windows, then their conversion away from
 the dark side will be complete :-)

I think the appropriate attitude is to NOT try to convert people, except
possibly in a slightly silly "muh, you must use linux for everything" way
that I personally don't take too seriously.

We need to just get on with using linux, and other sensible stuff, and
IF PEOPLE ASK QUESTIONS then we can tell them about it. But we shouldn't 
try to promote it as what they want, because invariably they start going
"aargh, it' doesn't have all the shiny windows features, it must suck, and
you said it was good", whereas if they get interested in it themselves,
and come to you, you've made no promises so they can't be dissappointed.

OTOH, that doesn't help us much with the desirable goal of getting unix
used more in the workplace. I dunno.

Michael



Re: odd -w effect

2001-01-24 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:46:13PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 On or about Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:43:46PM +, Michael Stevens typed:
 
 We need to just get on with using linux, and other sensible stuff, and
 IF PEOPLE ASK QUESTIONS then we can tell them about it. But we shouldn't 
 try to promote it as what they want, because invariably they start going
 "aargh, it' doesn't have all the shiny windows features, it must suck, and
 you said it was good", whereas if they get interested in it themselves,
 and come to you, you've made no promises so they can't be dissappointed.
 OTOH, that doesn't help us much with the desirable goal of getting unix
 used more in the workplace. I dunno.
 I think it's just like proactive evangelism vs "living a good life" -
 when your box hasn't crashed six times today, and it's running a clone
 of a production web site faster than the live box, and it's doing all
 the monitoring for the company, and... people start to say "ooh, how can
 I get some of that". This is a reaction that hitting them over the head
 with Debian CDs rarely engenders (though it's fun anyway).

I was actually thinking religion here as the analogy...

Anyway, we seem to be in furious agreement.

Michael



Re: odd -w effect

2001-01-24 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:07:38PM -0600, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 01:47:59PM -, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
  Jon, who thinks Windows workstation connected to *nix machine running samba
  is the prefered development environment.
 Aye aye. Windows UI is much nicer than linux's (right now) and
 linux doesn't have a decent browser which is a serious handicap.

My mileage varies.

Although you're right about the browser.

Michael



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-23 Thread Michael Stevens

On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 02:11:02PM -0600, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 04:38:31PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  la la la la *has hands over ears* i cant here you, la la la la
 
 The issue of millions-of-CCs needs to be addressed by anyone
 putting together a pro-reply-to: sender argument. Using procmail
 is *not* the right answer, neither is burdening the user with
 constantly editing the outgoing To:  Cc: *every fscking email*.

I just use the list reply feature in my MUA.

Michael



Re: Consultancy company

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:26:18AM +, James O'Sullivan wrote:
 On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
  On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
   Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he
   originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my
   experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some
   excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to
   annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
  
  I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the
  issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific
  you attempt to be.
 
 
 All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control
 process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that
 specific job.
 
 A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what
 the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the
 project timeline.  This will need to be read and physically signed off by
 the client before any work is undertaken.

a) you need to be able to persuade management this is a good idea

b) you need to get someone writing specs who is actually able to be specific.
And you need to have some way of dealing with a client who will refuse to
pay until you implement something that they say is contained within the
spec, and you don't. Despite the fact you're both reading the same spec.

From memories of my last job, both of these can be a problem.

Michael



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:52:08PM +, DJ Adams wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:47:03PM +, Andy Wardley wrote:
  So without wishing to start another holy war, is it possible to change
 too late ;)
  the mailing list configuration to have a more sensible default Reply-to?
 No no! Please no!

holy war
Why surely the most sensible reply-to is no reply-to at all...
/holy war



Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 03:32:58PM +, DJ Adams wrote:
 Hi folks
 Am I going mad or is there no way I can start my fav client program
 PuTTY and specify a saved 'session' directly with a switch?
 (i.e. I can specify a hostname, but I _want_ to specify a session
 name - to have my colours / fonts etc)

And does anyone know how to get putty to save settings like they key
for backspace, etc, rather than my having to set them every time I start
it?

Michael



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 04:33:34PM +, Simon Wistow wrote:
 Greg McCarroll wrote:
  reply-to having the address of the sender is the right thing,
  it means when you reply to a message you reply to author of
  that message, when you reply-all you reply to all
 No. When you reply-all it replies to the sender *AND* the list. So the
 sender gets two copies of everything. Which is just fricking irritating
 *AND* a waste of bandwidth.

So you use list-reply like sensible people.

Or you actually take the time to pay attention to who you're sending
the message to.

Aargh. help! i'm being drawn in!

Michael



Re: [OT] Putty invocation

2001-01-22 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 04:33:11PM -, Robert Shiels wrote:
  And does anyone know how to get putty to save settings like they key
  for backspace, etc, rather than my having to set them every time I start
  it?
 Do you mean setting the backspace to Control-H in the keyboard tab isn't
 working, or are there other esoteric things you want to set?

The backspace-ctrl-h. I can set it once in putty, and it works, but if I
quit putty and restart, new sessions don't get it.

Michael



Re: Perl/MySQL based forums

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 01:33:09PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  No, I'm not going to code a forum package by hand. 
 go on dave, it cant be that hard 

Having done it a few times, it *isn't* that hard...

Michael



Re: Conultancy discussion (was Re: TPC5)

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 04:50:39PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Neil Ford ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  potential london clients will be put off dealing with a company not in london
  Seeing as this was about TPC, interesting subject change :-)
 apologise for that i've rejoined (void) and once again regard all mailing lists
 as one big holistic stream ;-)

Ah, they all come back in the end...

Michael



Mail::ListDetector - please test

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

Hi.

I have an (as yet unreleased) module called Mail::ListDetector,
which takes a Mail::Internet object, and attempts to tell you if the
message involved was posted to a mailing list, and if so, attempts to
get some details about that list.

I need testers - in particular, see if it builds and passes tests for
you, and throw lots of messages at the sample script and see if you
can get it to be inaccurate for any of them. If you can, please send
me the message in question. (if you don't want to give out the content,
just headers should do).

Currently it should know about majordomo, smartlist, ezmlm, and mailman,
although the majordomo and smartlist guessers are a bit experimental.

It's at:

http://www.etla.org/Mail-ListDetector-0.05.tar.gz

Michael



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 08:37:02PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:
 TCL is used because its multithreaded. Perl 6 is going to be
 multithreaded. It should be able to wipe TCL out.

I've never actually understood the appeal of threads. Why do
people like them?

Michael



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 10:58:54PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 y* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
   Ok, it's trolling a bit, but their main use seems to be where
   you don't want to bother to do proper nonblocking IO...
  quick web search
  They're apparently faster. And make it easier to share data.
 aside from the whole LWP aspect, i think the main appeal is they are
 a defined art - unlike the matre'd/minicab controller element of 
 forked process management

Hmm, it just always feels like someone sat down once and said "ok,
we have two choices:

1) we could improve proccesses, and IPC, and make them useful and standard
and easy for the task we want to do.

2) we could ignore the considerable work we spent implementing processes,
and build a new form of thing, and them build all our standards on top
of that

". And they picked the second option.

 we really want standardisation of technology interfaces in the industry,
 and threads go a little towards that - oh and a law that alows be to
 go around and shooting people who work in IT and i deep unworthy[1].

I do agree with this part.



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:24:03PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   we really want standardisation of technology interfaces in the industry,
   and threads go a little towards that - oh and a law that alows be to
   go around and shooting people who work in IT and i deep unworthy[1].
  I do agree with this part.
 the standardisation on the bloody massacre part?

Actually both.

Michael



Re: ArsDigita working practices (was: Big Macs v The Naked Chef -- )

2001-01-21 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 10:34:54PM +, Kieran Barry wrote:
 The concept of execution threads within a process makes it easy to share
 resources like database connections. As I understand it, that's it. The
 pre-forked model that Apache uses has a problem because it's tough to
 share resources.
 
 Incidentally, I think this is the reason servlets are used.

Servlets are actually pretty nice. They're like mod_perl handlers except
they feel... cleaner somehow. IMHO, anyway.

Michael



Re: Hardware Upgrade Fund

2001-01-20 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 11:42:52PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Paul Makepeace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Building reliability is probably your best aim: does it have a UPS? does it
  have a RAID 1/0 config? Dual PSUs? Tape drive  backup policy? Those things
  are way more important than a faster chip or RAM.
 your right of course, however all of those things are more expensive
 and in some cases involve disgarding existing equipment
 and at the end of the day its a hobby machine that currently is lucky
 to have an average CPU usage of 0.1% per hour

But when we start using it for the web site and the mailing list and
that jobs thing I think jo is working on we're all gonna get really annoyed
if it breaks...

Michael



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
  client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
  just charge em bigtime!
 nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight,
 so if they change their mind the deadline changes

What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding
a new job?

Michael



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
   client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
   just charge em bigtime!
  nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight,
  so if they change their mind the deadline changes
 What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding
 a new job?

Although, thinking about it, I can also note that the "find a new job" approach
seems to work...

Michael



Re: Hardware Upgrade Fund

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 02:41:57PM +, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
  [gem@penderel gem]$ df -h
  FilesystemSize  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
  /dev/sda6 3.9G  879M  2.8G  24% /
  /dev/sda1 7.6M  2.9M  4.2M  41% /boot
  
 OK that'll be another disk or two then - if there are going to be a number
 of accounts on the machine then I would suggest /home should be a separate
 disk.  I would vote for separate /usr /usr/local and /var partitions too.

insert holy war here



Re: Hardware Upgrade Fund

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 02:37:24PM -, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
  Personally I'd be happier if we had mirrored disks in there.
 I'd go for a backup system before a mirror, myself.

That could be good, too...

We definately need one of the two. (IMHO)

Michael



Re: Oh! Idea for penderel!

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:31:00PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 02:52:54PM -, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
  I'm happy to set this up if anyone is interested (although, frankly, you'd
  be mad to let me anywhere near a root password and a copy of bind)
 Heh.  djbdns is, despite being a bernsteinism, very good.  For values of
 'very good' which are equivalent to 'not bind'.  It's smaller, easier to
 configure, and more secure.  All in all, it's a Jolly Good Thing.

aol



Re: Holy War

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:29:18AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 So I'm looking for advice on the best distro to use. Bear in mind that
 the existing box will currently become a firewall/proxy box so I'll 
 do all the paranoid security stuff on there.
 Go for it. Give it your best shot. 
 Let battle commence.

Debian.

Or, if you want uber-paranoia, OpenBSD.

Michael



Re: Oh! Idea for penderel!

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:48:03PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:43:28PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
  On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:31:00PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
   Heh.  djbdns is, despite being a bernsteinism, very good.  For values of
   'very good' which are equivalent to 'not bind'.  It's smaller, easier to
   configure, and more secure.  All in all, it's a Jolly Good Thing.
  aol
 
 However, I don't believe it supports some of the more weird DNS entries
 you can have like HINFO and LOC records.
 
 [dcantrel@tim-the-enchanter dcantrel]$ nslookup
  set type=HINFO
  ariadne.barnyard.co.uk
 
 ariadne.barnyard.co.ukCPU = Amstrad CPC   OS = Amsdos / CPCIP
 
 Yay!  Not supporting such silliness may be considered a Bad Thing by some
 people.

I'm fairly sure it is supported, through an escape that allows you
to return any record type.

--cut--
:fqdn:n:rdata:ttl:timestamp:lo

Generic record for fqdn. tinydns-data creates a record of type n for
fqdn showing rdata. n must be an integer between 1 and 65535. The proper
format of rdata depends on n. You may use octal \nnn codes to include
arbitrary bytes inside rdata.
--cut--

(from http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/tinydns-data.html)

Michael



Re: Holy War

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:02:01PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 On or about Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:58:41PM +, Richard Clamp typed:
 On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:44:42PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
  I'd use Debian 'cos I like it. Downside: latest versions of stuff
  aren't usually available as packages.
 Untrue, if you're following the testing/unstable branch and have sufficient
 bandwidth that is.
 Depends on what you mean by "latest". Give it a week or two to get into
 unstable, a few more to get into testing - fair enough?
 Not what I'd use for CPAN modules, for example.

And, of course, there's the obvious downside of following the unstable
branch of anything...

Michael



Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 09:56:07AM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
 Robin Szemeti wrote:
  as a matter of interest what is your fave Linux or *nix install then??
 From what I've been reading on this list, Debian seems to be argued for
 quite a lot, as is FreeBSD (? I think -- one of the BSDs, anyway).

I like Debian for general use, and OpenBSD for servers where there's
a particular security concern...

Michael



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
 than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
 if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
 "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.

When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge
clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff.

Michael



Re: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-17 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 03:28:40PM +, Neil Ford wrote:
 Then there's the Psion 3 being used to detonate a bomb is a movie 
 who's name I can't remember but it features the same Mr Segal being 
 killed in the first 10 minutes or so.

Executive Decision.

Michael



Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)

2001-01-15 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 11:26:28PM -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote:
 It's also sheer idiocy to pipe arbitrary code from an untrusted, unverified
 source directly to the shell.

How is it less secure than downloading a tar file and typing ./configure?

Admittedly you *could* check several meg of source for trojans, but I
don't believe you *do*.

Michael



Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)

2001-01-13 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sat, Jan 13, 2001 at 02:53:57PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
  Surely, then, rpm should have the ability to install and fetch
  dependencies from the network automagically? 
 Yes it should.  It doesn't.  Which is why Helix's installer is so much
 easier to use.

start type="holy_war"
Or, more sensibly, debian.

apt-get install foo

already knows how to fetch foo from the network and install, grabbing
any required dependencies.

I even hear you can use it with rpms these days.

Michael



Re: one liner

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 12:24:59PM +, Shevek wrote:
 On Mon, 8 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
 
  I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
  printed copies of.
  
  Maybe we should see about costs for getting some of them printed fairly
  nicely and bound.
 
 I think the uni offers such a service here.

What about us poor, benighted souls who aren't at a uni? :)



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 12:32:46PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
 Jo Walsh sent the following bits through the ether:
  lets kill off the old list before the two get too far out of sync
 Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-)

Yeah, we want our own mailing list server.

And a pony.



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:16:19PM +, Jo Walsh wrote:
 i would sooner install qmail/ezmlm than mailman
 would ppl object?

I'd rather see exim/mailman but qmail is cool too.

The most important bit is to get *something* working :)

Michael



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:20:33PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 (Supposedly Mjd 2 is going to be better, RSN.)

IIRC the postgresql mailing list are actually using it, or were. Don't
think that it is done yet, tho.

 Smartlist is good. Mailman is good.

ezmlm and qmail actually seem pretty nice, apart from the usual
bernstein factor.

Michael



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:27:50PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
 /me has a bone to pick with majordomo.
 majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt

It's doable, you'll just wish you hadn't.

Michael



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:51:15PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
 Good thing: the error messages were short enough to fit into an SMS
 Bad thing: they contained no useful information whatsoever
 I Will Not Give In.  I Will Not Install Python.

I actually kinda like python, from the little I've played with it.

Michael



Re: one liner

2001-01-08 Thread Michael Stevens

On Mon, Jan 08, 2001 at 08:25:54AM -0700, Nathan Torkington wrote:
 Michael Stevens writes:
  I'm sure there are reasonable number of online manuals we'd all like
  printed copies of.
 Yeah, but if O'Reilly were to print them, you'd complain that the
 book was nothing more than the online manual :-)

Yes, but that's because you have such a good reputation for delivering
*more* than the online manual!

Michael



Re: one liner

2001-01-06 Thread Michael Stevens

On Sat, Jan 06, 2001 at 10:12:37PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 Ok, we are not (void) but we are pretty close so here is a one liner that
 hopefully will provote discussion 
 the only thing that gives potential for the marketing of a language is the
 projects that are achieved using it and java has a hell of a lot more cool 
 projects than perl
 

What are these mysterious cool java projects that no-one's been telling
me about?

 
 /me is thinking of a new london.pm project called ``ignore the perl 6 body
 and parallel to it lets create our own perl propoganda/marketting/best 
 practice/for the good fo the language movement''  

I think the best thing people can do for the language is create good things
and modules and whatever using it.



Re: Books

2001-01-04 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:10:24PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 That was Sili of you 

On the plus side, They Have Lots Of Books, which makes up for almost
all their faults.



blibble

2001-01-04 Thread Michael Stevens

You know you're drunk when, faced with the problem of getting through
an underground ticket gate, you get out your house keys and start fiddling
with them looking for the right one.

Michael



Re: irc again

2001-01-03 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 11:49:58AM +, Aaron Trevena wrote:
 erm.. whats the irc channel for london.pm again.
 I spose I'll have to download bitchx as well now.

irc.rhizomatic.net #london.pm

Michael



Re: irc again

2001-01-03 Thread Michael Stevens

On Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 12:56:38PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 11:49:58AM +, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   erm.. whats the irc channel for london.pm again.
   I spose I'll have to download bitchx as well now.
  irc.rhizomatic.net #london.pm
 london.rhizomatic.net

I prefer irc. YMMV.



Re: Perl Geek Code

2001-01-02 Thread Michael Stevens

On Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:00:35PM +, Mark Fowler wrote:
   PLPM++I answer questions (correctly) on #london.pm

But aren't most of the questions on #london.pm of the form "shall we
go down the pub then?", to which there is a simple answer that's
almost always correct...

   PLPM+ I occasionally visit #london.pm

I like the idea that we're an actual place. Maybe a good bar or curryhouse.



Re: Perl Geek Code

2001-01-02 Thread Michael Stevens

On Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 06:28:29PM +, David Hodgkinson wrote:
 Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  I like the idea that we're an actual place. Maybe a good bar or curryhouse.
 That wouldn't be Penderel's Oak then...
 We're meeting on Thursday, right? 

If we aren't I'm going to be getting pretty lonely drinking on my own...



Re: Perl Geek Code

2001-01-02 Thread Michael Stevens

On Tue, Jan 02, 2001 at 08:52:56PM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
 I'll join you. Leo said he was coming too.
 I may even make it this time.

I think we *are* having a proper meeting, anyway.

Looking forward to recover from spending christmas at home...

Michael