Re: Technical Meeting - 21st June

2001-06-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Leo Lapworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:15:32PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
  Oh... er... it's only three days to the technical meeting and so far I don't
  seem to have any talks for it.
 
 Thursday.. what, this thursday where does the time go.
 
 Assuming I can make it (have to check something), I'll give a little
 update on the new web site.

Bugger. I definitely can't make it.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: (Open|Net)BSD local root exploit

2001-06-18 Thread Piers Cawley

Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 
  Now imagine a big field, with a treasure chest in the middle
  of it - this is your security.
 
 Now, imagine the chest is buried in the field, and no-one saw me bury
 it. This is my security.
 
 
 Snip enormous security through obscurity tirade
 
 However, after playing Baldurs Gate 2 all weekend, I'm obliged to say
 that really if you have a priceless artifact that you don't want
 found, the trick is to give to a peasant, because no adventurer is
 going to go round killing every peasant in the land to find the one
 with the treasure. See also the way diamonds are transported around
 Hatton Garden (i.e. in people's pockets, not in securicor vans).

Don't remind me. I used to work in Hatton Gardenm, and bought Gill's
engagement ring there. Well, that's not quite true, I bought the
*pieces* of Gill's engagement ring there. Which is a story in itself
that I'll tell at a London.pm social evening one time.

The scariest bit was handing over £400 or so worth of gem + gold to
the bloke who was going to turn it into a real ring. A bloke who I had
never met before that moment. Who was going to do the work for 15
quid. And he looked surprised when I asked for a receipt.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: YAPC::Europe Registration

2001-06-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Richard Clamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 07:41:48PM +0100, Neil Ford wrote:
  So who's registered then? ;-)
 
 I have, now to write[0] the talks.

I got lucky. They didn't want the Perl Proverbs talk (which I'd have
to write), but they did want 12 step (which I busk). Result.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Some pretty pictures ...

2001-06-11 Thread Piers Cawley

Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On 08/06/2001 at 12:30 +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
 ... and some not so pretty pictures.
 
 http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/london.pm/2001-06-07/
 
 Bah. Too many of me. And not enough of you here:
 
 http://husk.org/perl/pics/
 
 Warning: dislike of flash may lead to fuzzyness and light trails.

Really pretty pics: 

http://www.well.com/user/pdcawley/misc_images/

But I may be biased.

There are no London.pmers in those though.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Some pretty pictures ...

2001-06-11 Thread Piers Cawley

Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On 11/06/2001 at 11:10 +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  http://husk.org/perl/pics/
 
 http://www.well.com/user/pdcawley/misc_images/
 
 But I may be biased.
 
 Nah, they are nice. But you've been selective,

Of course, first step towards being a decent photographer is learning
to edit. When you're scanning off negatives and you don't have a bulk
scanner then you *have* to be selective. Life is too short.

 I'm assuming (unless you've just taken seven photos in your entire
 life) whereas I just upload all of my photos (except the ones in
 NY), so they're all available for ridicule.

I'd suggest building a page of 'favourites'. Just thinking about why
they are your favourites and what you did to make the image will
improve your general photography. Certainly my contacts sheets have
got generally better as I've taken more photographs and gone through
the editing process with them.

Not very perlish I'm afraid.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Some pretty pictures ...

2001-06-11 Thread Piers Cawley

Tony Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 12:23:26PM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
  Just thinking about why they are your favourites and what you did to
  make the image will improve your general photography. Certainly my
  contacts sheets have got generally better as I've taken more photographs
  and gone through the editing process with them.
  Not very perlish I'm afraid.
 
 Learning what you do well by studying it, and getting better over time
 isn't perlish?
 
 Weird. I though that was part of the essence of perl.

Hmm... good point. Time for a journal entry I think.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-11 Thread Piers Cawley

Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Piers Cawley wrote:
  I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.
 
 4XL, innit? (Remembering you at yapc::Europe:19100 at the T-shirt stand,
 wondering whether even to bother looking at them.)

4XL Tall acksherly.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-09 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.
 
 Big boned.

Nope.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-08 Thread Piers Cawley

Dominic Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:46:39AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
  Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   I presume that this is a permie thing?
  
  Yes. And I'd estimate that _most_ of you I know would be, um, a bit
  too heavyweight for them...
 
 You calling me fat, boy?

I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: rewind elector

2001-06-08 Thread Piers Cawley

Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Fri, 8 Jun 2001, jo walsh wrote:
 
  gah, i feel old and sleepy
 
 As does anyone who got home at 4am ;-)
 
  so nothing changes, but it was nice to realise that in the company
  of perlmongers.
 
 Yey. Thanks dave it was much fun, and I only inaproperatly fell
 asleep three times... Interesting ride home in the minicab with the
 driver not knowing where brick lane or highbury corner was...and me
 much leafing through his A-Z and attempting not to notice him
 getting flashed by speed cameras

Every so often I like to be reminded of why I don't want to live in
London. Thanks for that.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: JOB: Eng. Proj Management

2001-06-08 Thread Piers Cawley

Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 A reasonably reliable headhunter I've dealt with in the past is
 looking for technical project managers for new web company. Let me
 know if interested...

Hmm... I wonder if I could morph... Bet that's a permie thing isn't it?


-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-07 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I'm doing some work for a .com type company in the travel sector. They
 have a network support blokey and a Windozey programmer type, but
 since their live system is apache and linux they have a slight hole in
 their skillset.
 
 Are there any of you lot still looking for jobs? 

I presume that this is a permie thing?

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Religion

2001-06-03 Thread Piers Cawley

Jonathan Stowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 
  The actions and spirit of paganism (say, wearing leaves and
  dancing round a tree in May) are good healthy things to do.
 
 What with this and Piers' earlier revelations and the ever present
 Unixbeard I have this feeling that maybe we ought to get a Morris
 Side together for next years Jack in the Green festival in Hastings,

No way on this planet am I morris dancing. Not that I object to
watching other fools doing it, but exercise and me don't go well
together. 

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: General Election

2001-06-03 Thread Piers Cawley

Barbie [easynet] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  I understand folk singers sometime place a finger over their ear
  whilst singing. Perhaps Mr Bragg should try that. I doubt it would
  improve his singing, but at least it would stop him twanging that
  guitar ...
 
 I don't think you could call Billy Bragg a folk singer. His more
 aptly titled moniker of Bard of Barking is probably more
 representative of what he does. Tells stories set to music. he might
 not be the best singer in the world, but then it never stop Bob
 Dylan or Jimi Hendrix. each to their own I suppose.

Look, I'm not saying Bragg's voice is pretty. But his pitching is
accurate, his tunes are good, his songwriting is immaculate and you
can tell what he's singing. Same goes for his Bobness too come to
that.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: General Election

2001-06-03 Thread Piers Cawley

Barbie [easynet] [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Look, I'm not saying Bragg's voice is pretty. But his pitching is
  accurate, his tunes are good, his songwriting is immaculate and you
  can tell what he's singing. Same goes for his Bobness too come to
  that.
 
 You can tell what Bob is singing! 

Most of the time, yeah.

 I had to get the Dylan Songbook to learn the words ;)
 
 Barbie
 
 PS: I have several albums by Billy and Bob, but I still don't class
 them as folk singers.

Bob was definitely a folk singer once. The early acoustic stuff is
definitely folk, and it informs the later electric stuff too. Bragg's
usually not a folksinger, but he's a good singer of folk songs on
occasions. 

 The Houghton Weavers, The Spinners, The Knigston Trio, My missus
  now they're folk singers.

Me, on a good night.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: General Election

2001-06-01 Thread Piers Cawley

Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 10:32 01/06/01 +0100, you wrote:
   I suggest we leave the pub at about 9:30pm and get the tube
 back to mine, stopping at Threshers en route.
 
 Can't we just go to another pub that's got Peter Snow on the telly?
 
 There will, of course, be an entrance test. Anyone who doesn't know the
 first verse and chorus of The Red Flag will not be admitted :)
 
 Don't do that Dave. It's bad to drink alone.

I'm not prepared to bet that he'll be allowing himself in.

Does it count if you know all the verses to Raise Your Banner High
instead? Can I blag a bed again, what with the Iterative meeting the
next day...

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: crazy golf

2001-06-01 Thread Piers Cawley

Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 13:27 01/06/01 +0100, you wrote:
 
 weather's awful. We [0] want June and July holidays how about US
 
 Quite the opposite!!! We need more winter holidays to cheer us up
 during those dark rainy months. We should have holidays for all the
 major Saint's days, and get rid of silly artificial things like
 Mayday. Or we should just not work half the time, like the French.

Personally I'd rather get rid of the overtly christian holidays and
stick with good old pagan stuff like May day. And not because of the
labour movement, it's a *way* older holiday than that.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: General Election

2001-06-01 Thread Piers Cawley

Barbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  There will, of course, be an entrance test. Anyone who doesn't know the
  first verse and chorus of The Red Flag will not be admitted :)
 
 Is this the modern doctored version or the traditional version?

How about:

The working class can kiss my arse
I've got the foreman's job at last.

Or
The people's flag is deepest puce
with fleurs de lys in pale chartreuse

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: General Election

2001-06-01 Thread Piers Cawley

Cross David - dcross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Barbie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 1:46 PM
 
   There will, of course, be an entrance test. Anyone who doesn't know the
   first verse and chorus of The Red Flag will not be admitted :)
  
  Is this the modern doctored version or the traditional version?
 
 The New Labour version starts like this:
 
 The people's flag is lightest pink,
 It's not as red as you might think.
 
 I prefer it sung to the original tune (The White Cockade) as opposed to
 the christmas carol dirge that is most used these days.

Hmm... how the hell do you fit it to The White Cockade? No matter how
I try it it still sounds bloody ugly.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: crazy golf

2001-06-01 Thread Piers Cawley

Redvers Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I find it strange that the only surviving English/British religion,
 
 Nah, you want an interesting old religion, look at the Celts.  Drinking
 blood has gone out of style though...

Assuming you're not a Masai tribesperson. And assuming that the
Romans weren't lying about the Celts (Though why would they want to do
that?)

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: General Election

2001-06-01 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Fri, 01 Jun 2001, Cross David - dcross wrote:
 
  There's a fine version of it to this tune by Billy Bragg and Dick Gaughn on
  BB's mini-album The Internationale.
 
 undef error - Can't locate auto/Billy/Bragg/tune.al in @INC ...

Then I suggest you try using your ears.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: bad greg

2001-05-31 Thread Piers Cawley

Neil Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:09:28PM +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
  On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 05:55:39PM +0100, Neil Ford wrote:
   Mr Couzens
  
  Die, alien slime!
  
 My apologies was typed in a hurry on a tube train and I didn't double
 check before it got sent when I got home.
 
 100 x I must check the spelling of people's surnames before hitting send

I think you'll find that that only works if you do it the other way
around. 

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: LAMP in Amsterdam anyone?

2001-05-31 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 http://www.jobserve.com/jobserve/JobDetail.asp?jobid=14094948

I've already sent in a CV for that one. Agent seemed a little
perturbed when I guessed who it was after his (short) description of
what the client did.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: wantarray and Tied Hashed

2001-05-25 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 12:36:59PM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:
 
  From: David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   I wonder, could you do some magic with the calling stack so that your
   FETCH can Do The Right Thing?
  
  Or, I could just accept that I'm a BAD MAN who is trying to PERVERT PERL in
  NASTY WAYS.
 
 No, you're confusing yourself with Damian :-)

[FX: points to Symbol::Approx::Sub]

Are you *quite* sure about that?

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Tie::Hash::Regex vs Tie::RegexpHash

2001-05-25 Thread Piers Cawley

Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 02:18 PM 2001.05.25 +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 [1] Hmmm... note to self - see if you can come up 
 with a tied hash that abbreviates to T::H::C.
 
 Semi-plausible: Tie::Hash::Complex
 Not-plausible: Tie::Hash::Cannabis
 
 Might see the light of day?: Tie::Hash::Conway

Presumably this will lead to a load of gags about not wanting to go
too far from his stash?

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

2001-05-24 Thread Piers Cawley

Damian Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Damian is so cool...
 
 The next version of Text::Autoformat (which should be out before TPC5)
 will also leave header lines and sigs unmolested, making it truly useful
 for email tidying.

Huzzah!

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

2001-05-24 Thread Piers Cawley

Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On 24 May 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
  Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
   I also have D.A.R.Y.L (Data Analyising Robot Youth Lifeform) but I
   thinkt hat's pushing it a bit.
 
  If that counts, then Weird Science counts too!
 
 
 That's more geeksploitation or nerdsplotitation...

If you're doing that, then you need _Revenge of the Nerds_ too.

And if anyone has a half decent copy of _Better Off Dead_ (early John
Cusack film) I'd be *very* happy to see it again. Even though it's not
quite in this genre, and I won't be making it to the film fest
anyway... 

Er...

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

2001-05-24 Thread Piers Cawley

Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Piers Cawley wrote:
  
  And if anyone has a half decent copy of _Better Off Dead_ (early John
  Cusack film) I'd be *very* happy to see it again. Even though it's not
  quite in this genre, and I won't be making it to the film fest
  anyway...
 
 No but I do have The Sure Thing (imdb: John Cusack/Anthony TopGun, ER
 Edwards/Daphne Zuniga/Roadtrip/California/Odd Couple/Shot-gunning Beer)
 which is an even earlier film.

Ooh. Not seen that one. Is it any good? And that's Anthony TopGun,
Northern Exposure, ER Edwards to you.


-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

2001-05-24 Thread Piers Cawley

Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Piers Cawley wrote:
   
   And if anyone has a half decent copy of _Better Off Dead_ (early John
   Cusack film) I'd be *very* happy to see it again. Even though it's not
   quite in this genre, and I won't be making it to the film fest
   anyway...
  
  No but I do have The Sure Thing (imdb: John Cusack/Anthony TopGun, ER
  Edwards/Daphne Zuniga/Roadtrip/California/Odd Couple/Shot-gunning Beer)
  which is an even earlier film.
 
 Ooh. Not seen that one. Is it any good? And that's Anthony TopGun,
 Northern Exposure, ER Edwards to you.

Sorry, Anthony Revenge of the Nerds, Top Gun, Northern Exposure, ER,
... Edwards.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

2001-05-24 Thread Piers Cawley

Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Piers asked:
 
  The sure thing
 
  Ooh. Not seen that one. Is it any good? And that's Anthony TopGun,
  Northern Exposure, ER Edwards to you.
 
 Any good, any good? It's only my all time favourite film of all time[1].
 
 Where frat movie meets romantic comedy, on a road trip. Quite a few good
 one liners. John Cusack being John Cusack very well. Zuniga being
 Zuniga, also very well.

Oh, hang on. Has it got Tim Robbins in it as well? If so I *have* seen
it and it's bloody good.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: London.pm List Weekly Summary 2001-05-21

2001-05-24 Thread Piers Cawley

Redvers Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  http://www.maff.gov.uk/animalh/int-trde/misc/foot/flyer.pdf
 
 About that flyer... FMD presents no risks to humans but is a serious
 threat to animal health.
 
 That is not strictly true... FMD is not a threat to animal health,
 the MAFF slaughters are.

Well, up to a point. Dramatic reduction in yield + high chance of
infertility == significant (indirect) risk to animal's health.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?

2001-05-22 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 23:30 21/05/2001, David H. Adler wrote:
 On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
  
   Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then
   they're in for a big shock.
 
 ...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing
 technical books... :-)
 
 dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though...
 
 ITYM used his editing money to buy some of a new guitar :)

Hey, maybe it's one of those cheapo 'made in China' jobs. Of course,
if it paid for a Martin or a Lowden or something else equally lovely,
then well done Mr Adler.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: FHM Top 100 Sexiest Women

2001-05-21 Thread Piers Cawley

Neil Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, May 21, 2001 at 01:26:43PM +0100, Lucy McWilliam wrote:
  
  On 20 May 2001, Piers Cawley wrote:
  
   Neil Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Just picked up the latest FHM to check out the above mentioned list...
The interesting bits are as follows;
   The really interesting bit was Mr Ford dancing around in his living
   room crowing because Sara Cox had read his name out on the radio.
  
  Just exactly *why* had Sara Cox read Neil's name out?
  
 I was going to stay out of this one, but in order to make sure the facts
 remain straight, I will answer this one.
 
 On her show on Friday she was going on about being No 68 on the list but
 she hadn't actually seen the magazine so didn't know what they had said
 about her.
 
 So being a sad muppet (there you go, I've said it), I typed up what was in
 the mag and emailed it to her. 
 
 She read out the email and said Thank You.

At which point Neil started sounding positively orgasmic. Yes! Yes!
Yes! I've had my name read out on Radio 1!

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: TPC talk practice / technical meet

2001-05-21 Thread Piers Cawley

Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Seeing as TPC slides for talks are supposed to be in at the end of the
 month, I've got a quick technical meeting together. The idea is that
 we'd practice our talks (make sure the timing / level is right etc.)
 and get constructive criticism from people before handing them
 in. YAPC talks also welcome.
 
 When: Saturday 26th noon onwards
 Place: state51 (thanks again guys)
 
 I will present an hour-long Instant Compilers talk (I'll spare you
 from another Graphing Perl talk ;-). It looks like Simon Wistow might
 talk about Perl-Flash. Other speakers welcome!
 
 Of course, you don't need to be talking to come - it'll be slightly
 different from a normal technical meeting but interesting and
 informative nevertheless.

Hmm... I may come down, sounds interesting. I could possibly use some
people to bounce some ideas about YAPC talks off.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Sara Cox - was Re: FHM Top 100 Sexiest Women

2001-05-20 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 00:06 20/05/2001, James Powell wrote:
 On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 12:00:38AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
   Neil Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Just picked up the latest FHM to check out the above mentioned list...
   
The interesting bits are as follows;
  
   The really interesting bit was Mr Ford dancing around in his
   living room crowing because Sara Cox had read his name out on
   the radio.
 
 Ahh Sara Cox - as deserving of her position in the FHM top 100
 women as she is of her £750K out of the license fee for two years
 blathering.
 
 I'm sure I'm really in the minority here, but I can't be the only
 one who finds all this discussion of the FHM list distasteful. I've
 never really understood why intelligent men find it acceptable to
 objectify women in this way.

Indeed. I just thought Neil's reaction was funny.

 And besides, since when could you work out how sexy a woman (or man)
 was simply by looking at a photo.

With you all the way here.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [gnat@frii.com: Damian Conway's Exegesis 2]

2001-05-17 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Leon Brocard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Coo, coo, see the fabled perl6, remark how it looks just like perl5,
  wonder if anything's different and if there's a point to all this ;-)
 
 Blasphemy ahead ..
 
 I don't think Perl 6 can be a tremendous leap forward, not because
 of RFC's along the lines of `Perl must stay Perl', but because
 the next leap forward is VisualPerl which will be as much about
 IDE as core language. Now lets not get hung up on the IDE bit
 of that statement, its more about how people build programs
 than the interface they use, the IDE merely focuses them towards
 a certain methodology of building software.
 
 And just to complete my final blasphemy, Visual Basic, may have
 a shit language behind it, it may have performance problems, 
 it may be very limited and may force you to implement the guts
 as of any serious program you write as C/C++ DLLs but
 is still the most impressive implementation of a programming 
 language/dialect that I have ever seen, barring one or two
 domain specific languages, such as the visualisation software
 which I have forgotten the name of.
 

I tried to use VB once. I kept thinking Why isn't this as good as
Interface Builder is on NeXTSTEP? Actually, I find myself thinking
that when I use almost any IDE...


-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [gnat@frii.com: Damian Conway's Exegesis 2]

2001-05-17 Thread Piers Cawley

Paul Makepeace [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, May 16, 2001 at 10:06:22PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  And just to complete my final blasphemy, Visual Basic, may have
  a shit language behind it, it may have performance problems, 
  it may be very limited and may force you to implement the guts
  as of any serious program you write as C/C++ DLLs but
  is still the most impressive implementation of a programming 
  language/dialect that I have ever seen,
 
 You clearly haven't used Delphi. It is *streets* ahead of VB. Not
 only that they provide source to their components. Not only that,
 Object Pascal is possibly one of the best practical OO languages
 in existence. Their component model just rocks. And their editor
 is fantastic.
 
 Delphi rules.

Still not as good Interface Builder + Objective C + AppKit +
NeXTSTEP... 

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: BOFHs requiring license

2001-05-14 Thread Piers Cawley

Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 16:41 13/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
 * Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   At 15:27 13/05/2001, Simon Cozens wrote:
  
 
 if only the SNP covered the whole of the UK
 
 Err, they do.
 
 Insert rant about the obvious injustice of having Scotland vote on
 the affairs of England and Westminster but not vice versa

I thought the Scots Nats were vaguely good about not voting on stuff
that didn't affect Scotland.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: BOFHs requiring license

2001-05-14 Thread Piers Cawley

Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:37:23AM +0100, Cross David - dcross wrote:
  Here's a pretty fundamental issue. Why do so many people seem to think that
  low taxes are good? 
 
 Rule one, man, rule one.

What? Always be wary of smiling old men?

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Politics (was RE: BOFHs requiring license)

2001-05-14 Thread Piers Cawley

will [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 How do you suggest we train our workforce when schools (which are funded by
 tax) can't afford more than a couple of rooms full of archimedes?

I respectfully suggest that we don't train the little buggers in
schools. We teach them stuff. Then, when the come out with (one hopes)
a good general education tending towards a specialisation in the
subjects they are interested in, their employers invest some money
training them to do the specific job that they're employed to do.

Wanders off muttering about the idiotic downgrading of 'academic'
teaching in favour of generic vocational training...

And while I'm about it, can I please kill anyone who complains that
our universities are 'too elitist?'. Excuse me? I thought that was the
whole point.

Ahem.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Politics (was RE: BOFHs requiring license)

2001-05-14 Thread Piers Cawley

Matthew Byng-Maddick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, 14 May 2001, David Cantrell wrote:
  On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 12:11:13PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
   Well one advantage of BP or Shell is if you don't like either company
   then you can simply choose not to purchase their products.
  So how, pray, do I opt out of the international oil companies' cartel?
 
 use the tube and electric trains? Most power stations aren't oil fired
 AFAIK.

No, they're gas fired. And who owns the gas rigs?

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Politics (was RE: BOFHs requiring license)

2001-05-14 Thread Piers Cawley

Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, May 14, 2001 at 02:10:56PM -0400, Piers Cawley wrote:
 
 And while I'm about it, can I please kill anyone who complains that
 our universities are 'too elitist?'. Excuse me? I thought that was the
 whole point.
 
 Oh, that's easy.
 
 - Being employed is a good thing.
 - People with degrees are more likely to be employed, and to have higher
   salaries, than people without.
 - Therefore everybody should have a degree, and miraculously they will all
   be employed and have higher salaries.

Well, it's thinking like that that keeps the skills gap nice and wide.
Hmm... can't be all bad then.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Politics (was RE: BOFHs requiring license)

2001-05-14 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Martin Ling [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Exactly. This is the same population that brought you 'Hey, why are
  there loads of schools with below average results!'
 
 That was a direct quote. Tory education minister. We want to raise
 standard so that more than half of schools get above average results.

Depends on which average. It's *possible* for more than half the
schools to get results above the mean. But it does mean you need some
really AWFUL schools to pull the average down...

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Politics (was RE: BOFHs requiring license)

2001-05-14 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, 14 May 2001, you wrote:
 
  But it does mean you need some
  really AWFUL schools to pull the average down...
 
 AIUI suitable arrangments have been put in place to enable this to
 happen.

I intended to leave that implicit.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: O Brother (was Re: Buffy musings ...)

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Piers Cawley writes:
  I'm trying to work out if I was bowled over by
  'Go to sleep pretty baby' because of the song or the visuals...
 
 Ob Porn: You can see a nipple and curve of a breast through a wet
 shirt if you look in the right place.

Actually, I bought the soundtrack and listened to that track without
the visuals. It's still stunning. And vaguely threatening

Go to sleep pretty baby.
Go to sleep pretty baby.
Come and lay your bones on the alabaster stones
and be nobody else's baby.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Movies (was Re: Buffy musings ...)

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Greg McCarroll writes:
  And while we are on the old films chestnut, my current recommendation
  is 'O Brother, where art thou?', excellent film.
 
 I loved it.  I've seen it twice.  Of course, I'm a bluegrass music
 nut.

Bluegrass is okay, but I prefer the gentler, old timey stuff. I'd
rather hear a banjo played clawhammer style than plucked any day of
the week. Sara Gray is about the best player in this style I've heard
over here...

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Traditional music (was Re: Movies (was Re: Buffy musings ...))

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Greg McCarroll writes:
  I think `man of sorrow' will be a good ambassador for bluegrass
 
 Yup, it is.  I'd just like to add that I saw it performed by the real
 band (i.e., not George Clooney lipsynching) one week ago.  It was
 bloody brilliant.  I think I even have a photo on the digital camera
 of them around the microphone doing the harmonies.  No fake beards,
 though:-)
 
 There are rumours of a Soggy Bottom Boys tour in 2002.  There was a
 big concert of the music from the movie last year, and it was recorded
 by some famous documentarian.  I'm looking forward to the release of
 that.

DA Pennebaker.

 On the subject of music (despite the Subject: of movies) ... anyone
 here into trad. Irish instrumental music?

I prefer trad English. And I really prefer trad. English vocal,
preferably without instruments...

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Movies (was Re: Buffy musings ...)

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

David H. Adler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 08:55:16AM -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote:
  
  On the subject of music (despite the Subject: of movies) ... anyone
  here into trad. Irish instrumental music?
 
 [raises hand]
 
 Actually, Celtic in general, more than *just* irish...

So you don't like English traditional music then. Shame.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Dim Sum?

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Leo Lapworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:30:13PM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
  Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether:

Anyone up for Dim Sim at 1 O'clock?
   
   Yes. New World, Gerrard Street. I may be very on time.
  
  ARGH! Sorry, I got PHB-ed.
 
 Well, lucky I turned up then wasn't it.. or it'd have been
 poor Leon on his own in a strange town.
 
 You also missed the best Dim Sim ever, they liked us
 so much we got free saki and a 50% of the meal.

This is the New World. We know what it's like.

 And the women they provided (hmm, think I'm going too far ?)

Yup.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Irish music (was RE: Movies (was Re: Buffy musings ...))

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Cross David - dcross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 3:55 PM
 
  On the subject of music (despite the Subject: of movies) ... anyone
  here into trad. Irish instrumental music?
 
 Well, I prefer stuff with lyrics, but enjoy almost any kind of Irish (and
 English) folk music.
 
 What are you doing between TPC and Y::E? You sound like the kind of person
 who would really enjoy the Cambridge Folk Festival
 http://www.cam-folkfest.co.uk/.

Do any possible folk festival you can, but avoid cambridge. Too rock
and roll nowadays.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Irish music (was RE: Movies (was Re: Buffy musings ...))

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Matthew Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dave Cross:
  You sound like the kind of person
  who would really enjoy the Cambridge Folk Festival
 
 Or, indeed, the Holmfirth Folk Festival: on this weekend for all your real
 ale, finger-in-ear, set-in-summer-wine-country needs
 http://www.riceholm.demon.co.uk/

We decided not to go. Worked on the website instead. What fun. Not.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: see attachment

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Greg McCarroll sent the following bits through the ether:
 
  Somehow I see b-movie horror mixed with independence day style
  computer geek saves the world.
 
 Buffy meets Real Genius meets Hackers meets Spaced meets Seven Samurai
 meets Pi meets Office Space meets Blade Runner meets Austin Powers?

meets Buckaroo Banzai.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: see attachment

2001-05-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Martin Ling [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 04:38:08PM +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
  
  On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 04:08:27PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   Aha - some dark evil force creates a website (BIG FONTS) that attracts young
   people from the world and has lots of flashy stuff on it (ok it would be
   flash, but this is a movie, so its just going to be BIG FONTS AND SWIRLING
   STUFF) that is actual fact brainwashing the teenagers to worship the website 
  
  Snow Crash, essentially.
 
 I was thinking recently about how well it would work as a film. The
 first three pages, up to the line about pizza, cut slightly and narrated
 in a deadpan style against some suitably badass footage would make an
 absolutely superb start to a movie.

They make a pretty spiffing start to a book too.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Buffy musings ...

2001-05-09 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Piers Cawley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   And while we are on the old films chestnut, my current
   recommendation is 'O Brother, where art thou?', excellent film.
  
  Oh yes. Truly fantastic. Must buy the soundtrack album.
 
 ah yes, and the soggy bottom boys' `hit' is particularly good 

Well, yes. but the version of 'O Death' that the big KKK chap sings,
and the version of 'I'll Fly Away' that crops up somewhere are both
pretty spectacular too. I'm trying to work out if I was bowled over by
'Go to sleep pretty baby' because of the song or the visuals...


-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: sing if you're happy that way

2001-05-08 Thread Piers Cawley

Matthew Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Wisty - next T-shirt please:
 
 use strict
   is gay

Hey, that's perl6 compliant.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Buffy musings ...

2001-05-08 Thread Piers Cawley

Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 ... I wonder how hard it would be to get Faith or Charisma Carpenter
 or one of those other minor characters to do a meet'n'greet at TPC.
 I suspect they're hard to dislodge from LA, but it might still be
 worth a try[1].  I'm tracking down their agents now.

For the London.pm bof I take it? 

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Apocalypse Two

2001-05-04 Thread Piers Cawley

Richard Clamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:48:46AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
  
   And much, much more!
  
  we'll switch to using . instead of -
  
  Yay!!
 
 p6-languageBut then what do you use to concatenate?/ :) 
 
 Don't miss the smiley, I don't actually care.
 
 I'm really looking forward to apoc9, multi-dimensional slices makes my
 brain water.

Properties are already looking pretty scary.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: More revolting natives

2001-05-04 Thread Piers Cawley

Andrew Bowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 [1] If he weren't such a twit he'll compliment you on your ability with the
 English language once he realises you're not American! (As in the American
 lady who struck a conversation with my mother - after a few minutes the
 American lady said Gee. You come from Scotland. And you speak English so
 well!). ;-)

My wife's aunt married a GI. When she was introduced to some of his
relative she was complimented on how good her English was. Yes, I
learnt it on the boat coming over. And they believed her.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Native Code Experts

2001-05-04 Thread Piers Cawley

Cross David - dcross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Thought you might be interested in this post from our frind the Hereford
 Killer. Someone posted some code that used for(;;) loops. And this was bk's
 response:
 
 begin_quote
 Erm, My eyes keep darting to your FOR loops. For is mainly used in
 javascript, and perl doesnt handle them, mainly because of the semicolons
 used to split the operations. Instead of for, use foreach, because thats
 close to the perl equivalent of for. I'm not sure exactly what that would
 translate to into perl, but if you want to do something in a foreach loop,
 it would look like 
 
 foreach $ArrayItemYouNeedToChange (@TheArray) { 
 #do this 
 } 
 
 Remember, for loops are for JS, not perl. You cant use semicolons in perl,
 unless theyre before a carriage return. 
 end_quote
 
 And this from someone who describes himself as a PERL Master.

I haven't laughed so much since Date::MMDDYY...

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On 18/04/2001 at 16:36 +0100, Dean wrote:
 Does OS X come with GNU tools like GCC and make then?
 
 Yes, but they're not installed by default. (I can't remember if the
 'BSD subsystem' is installed by default either though.) It comes on a
 seperate CD within the OS X shrinkwrap box- you also get OS 9 and OS X
 base install.
 
 You also get ProjectBuilder IDE.
 
 http://developer.apple.com/tools/projectbuilder/

Which is very nice. Or at least it was, back when it was NeXTSTEP. 

-- 
Piers




Re: The Natives are Revolting

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Remember the Liz Castro BBS that I was talking about a few weeks ago.
 Simon mentioned that a couple of the natives were getting restless and
 seemed uncomfortable with me being there.
 
 
 Well, one of them has finally snapped and is currently having a real
 go at me. If you want to take a look, read the thread that starts at:
 
 
 http://www.cookwood.com/cgi-bin/lcastro/perlbbs.pl?read=4453

Shame your solution ignored the locking problem...

-- 
Piers





Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 10:56:51AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
  Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
   You also get ProjectBuilder IDE.
   
   http://developer.apple.com/tools/projectbuilder/
  
  Which is very nice. Or at least it was, back when it was NeXTSTEP. 
 
 I had a little play with it last night, and it's still not bad.  Only
 supports C/C++/Java though.  I can't figger out how to get the Interface
 Builder to work with my project, so will have to read the docs.

Works with Objective C too. Which is still (for my money) the best way
of messing with the NeXTSTEP object model. 

-- 
Piers




Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:02:03AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
  Then you're missing half the fun. Seriously. M-x compile was the
  reason I started using emacs in the first place.
 
 And I \N{WHITE HEART SUIT} M-x gdb

Oh, yes, baby. And M-x ediff and friends are pretty good fun too.
Especially when you're playing with revision control stuff, makes
integration almost fun.

-- 
Piers




Re: The Natives are Revolting

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

dcross - David Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 11:34 AM
 
  Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   Remember the Liz Castro BBS that I was talking about a few weeks ago.
   Simon mentioned that a couple of the natives were getting restless and
   seemed uncomfortable with me being there.
   
   
   Well, one of them has finally snapped and is currently having a real
   go at me. If you want to take a look, read the thread that starts at:
   
   http://www.cookwood.com/cgi-bin/lcastro/perlbbs.pl?read=4453
  
  Shame your solution ignored the locking problem...
 
 The concept of locking is so far beyond the grasp of these people that I
 conveniently ignored it :)

There is that. Actually, I'm considering downloading the source of the
web board software that's being used and doing a hatchet job of a code
review on it. Maybe it'll surprise me and be well written...

-- 
Piers




Re: (Don't Laugh) Buying PGP

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

dcross - David Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 PGP isn't free for commerical use. You're supposed to buy a license.
 When our purchasing department here approached NAI to buy one, they
 were told the the Unix (server) version was 27,000 and the Windows
 version was 657.

Stick it on a Win2K box. Stick ActivePerl, PerlScript and IIS on
there. Write a PerlISAPI (or whatever the IIS equivalent of that is)
script to accept a file and pass phrase over an SSL link and return
(over the SSL link) the unencrypted file.

On the Unix side, write your funky commandline script to use the IIS
box as an RPC server via IIS/SOAP/whatever. For bonus points, write it
so that it's commandline equivalent to PGP and will just drop in as a
replacement... 

Thumb your nose at NAI. Sorted.

-- 
Piers




Re: BBC was Re: Beginners Guide

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 I think it likely that the licence fee will go. It would be a popular
 move with the Great Unwashed. ( who seem happy to spend 400 quid a year
 on a Sky subscription ), so I can see the BBC being released from its
 licence fee. This would have huge knock-ons in the commercial TV world.
 The advertising cake is only so big, if the BBC suddenly started taking
 adverts then I doubt many of the commercial stations would appreciate the
 50% drop in revenue. Assuming the BBC could decure 50% of the current TV
 advertising cake they would be significantly better off than they are
 now. 
 
 Personally I would rather pay a licence fee and have a (largely)
 independent public service broadcaster than yet another commercial
 station that can't say various things in case it upsets a major
 advertiser. YMMV

I'd be happy to pay a 400/year voluntary sub for a BBC with no
adverts during programs. I'd probably be prepared to put up with
adverts between programs a la FilmFour. But if they ever start running
ads on Radio 4 then they can whistle for my money.

But for that they're going to have to stop producing so much crap. I
want more stuff of the quality of Clocking Off and Walk On By, and
less of the vets in kitchens making your home look horrible cheap
shit. 

-- 
Piers, who can't remember the last time he watched anything on ITV.




Re: The Most Boring Thread Ever on London.pm : Cool Letter Heads

2001-04-13 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  ooh .. that reminds me .. the Census man has just dropped a form in .. I
  didn't reallise it was this year .. excellent .. now dont forget .. your
  religion is 'Jedi' ok ?
 
 putting jedi is a bad idea
 
 its you letting the shoreditch lot win

Viral marketing doesn't work. Tell all your friends.

-- 
Piers




Re: Technical Meeting - 19th April

2001-04-10 Thread Piers Cawley

jo walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Last Thursday I bullied^Wasked some people to consider doing talks for us,
  but I can't remember who they were. This is your opportunity to step
  forward.
 
 i recall promising to do 20 minutes on '101 fun things to do with
 Tangram', or something like that.

Swear at the maintainer who *still* hasn't put some stuff to allow for
schema changes during development without losing data.

-- 
Piers




Re: Torvalds not impressed with OS X

2001-04-10 Thread Piers Cawley

Jonathan Stowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, Chris Devers wrote:
 
  At 08:22 AM 9.4.2001 +, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  personally the ultimate task of any minimise/restore function should  be
  to get a window on or off the dispaly as fast as possible ... slowly
  attempting some graphical wizardry whilst chewing up CPU resources its
  not one of the things I lust after .. but YMMV :)
 
 Alternate genie effects [for OSX]
 
 The "genie effect" is what happens when you click the yellow
"minimize" button. You'll see your window get sucked down into
the dock, as though it were being drawn into a funnel. While
quite cool the first few times, some people (me!) have found
it a little annoying after a while. Those with slower machines
may also find it something of a CPU hog.
 
 Luckily, Apple included a way to change the genie effect, but
chose not to put it into a GUI tool at this time. I'm sure
someone will have one written within a week, but for now,
here's how you do it. Open a terminal session (the Terminal
application is inside Applications/Utilities), and type one
of the following:
 
   defaults write com.apple.Dock mineffect genie
 
 Java !!?

More likely netinfo. 

-- 
Piers




Re: sub BEGIN {}

2001-04-07 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 07:10:02PM +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
  On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 02:54:25PM +0100, Martin Ling wrote:
   Grr. I don't *want* to turn into an elitist wanker
  
  I seem to solve this by being one all along...
 
 'Elitist' implies to me that one is applying unreasonable, arbitrary
 criteria.  

It does? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Now, where'd I put the OED data
disk?

 Well shit, if despising scum is unreasonable and arbitrary, then
 sign me up!

You bofh. Me bofh too...

-- 
Piers




Re: Mmm... Perl 5+i

2001-04-07 Thread Piers Cawley

Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Piers Cawley wrote:
  I'm really liking Damian's work on this. Favourite so far:
  
  %new_hash = map {yield munge_key($_); munge_value($_)} %a_hash
^
 
 Looks like someone's been doing too much Ruby to me

Yield in coroutines is way older than Ruby. And note that yield in
this context is not mucking about with default blocks and all that
stuff...

-- 
Piers




Re: Torvalds not impressed with OS X

2001-04-07 Thread Piers Cawley

Paul Makepeace [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 http://www.msnbc.com/news/555930.asp
 
 Sadly, lacking on details.
 
 Paul, who still likes it.

Certainly from the play I had with it at Neil's, it looks pretty good.
Now, if I can just get someone to give me a G4 Titanium PowerBook I'll
actually have something to run on it.

-- 
Piers





Mmm... Perl 5+i

2001-04-04 Thread Piers Cawley

I'm really liking Damian's work on this. Favourite so far:

%new_hash = map {yield munge_key($_); munge_value($_)} %a_hash

That's glorious that is...

-- 
Piers




Re: Buffy

2001-04-02 Thread Piers Cawley

Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Robin Szemeti sent the following bits through the ether:
 
  was there not a recent thread regarding a module on CPAN and someone said
  somehting along the lines of ' we need review of modules before they get
  onto CPAN...' :)
 
 OKOK, and you'd have a "joke" category, into which silly things such
 as Q::S, Bleach, Buffy, and Symbol::Aprox::Sub would go...

You know, I'm not entirely sure that Q::S is a joke. I think it may
have morphed into something vaguely serious now.

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:
   Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 
  
  probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
  establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
  last child is reaped ... 100 lines?
 
 I think the key word in Paul's question was "transactions".
 In other words, you have more than one database, possibly
 in different physical (and network) locations, and you need
 to perform a transaction - an _atomic_ transaction - across
 several of them.
 
 No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
 or fail completely.

eval {
$fulfillment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
$payment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
do_the_payment_thing($payment_dbh);
do_the_fulfillment_thing($fulfillment_dbh);
$payment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
$fulfillment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
}
if $@ {
$fulfillment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
$payment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
}

Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail. And
I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Robin Szemeti wrote:
  
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
   On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
   
I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell.
   
I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
  
   Since excellent regex libraries are freely available,
  
  like I said.. as far as i can tell .. which maybe not very far :)
  
  so .. enlighten me .. how would you go about using regexes in Java?
 
 No idea, I just play with it occassionaly to get my head round what's
 going on, after 5 minutes I realise that if I'd been using perl I'd had
 finished by now.  This is not "an experienced programmer developes
 faster in their language of choice", but the fact that to do it in jave
 takes loads more code!
 
 I was recently asked how to do substition in strings in ASP - thank the
 lord for regex'es.

Install ActiveState's PerlScript stuff, use Perl as your ASP language.
Problem solved...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Piers Cawley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  Hmm... Given that big business seems to have bought some of the ideas
  of 'Just In Time' stock holding and delivery type stuff, maybe the
  time has come to start pushing Perl and open source programming as
  being 'Just In Time Development'.
  
 
 I'm not sure this is a good image for Perl, we want to get away
 from the last minute solution image.

I'm sure I don't agree with you. If your solution isn't ready (and
tested and all that stuff) at the last minute and no earlier then you
should be using the spare time generated to make the solution better,
right up until the last minute.

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   * Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
Fuck it. Let's do it.
  
  Firstly, mod_perl passim.
  
   Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
   to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already
  
  TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
  different styles. How can you evaluate this?
  
 
 it doesn't matter how they achieve most things, as long as they can
 do them ... reasonably
 
   have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can
  
  Please share this
  
 
 it's too late tonight, i'll try and remember tommorow, the plan is more 
 how to get it organised and do all the dull procedural stuff quickly
 
 the actual content is up for debate, although i think levels of
 perl `skillz' would suck, i'd much rather see a ``core'' perl certification,
 and slowly secondary skill certifications being developed and registered,
 however at launch, probably WWW and DBI spring to mind as two
 secondary ones that will be there from the word go - however they will be 
 focused quite tightly on their areas

Start with Core Perl, covers the basics of being able to program in
Perl. Maybe an add on for OO Concepts in Perl.

Certifications should be competency based rather than being 'complete
this course, here's your certificate, which leads to problems of
qualifying as an assessor, but it's worth worrying about.

Once we know what the competencies required for a given certification
are, then the various training houses can come up with training
material and assessment services to help people reach that level of
certification. 

Gill's got a good deal of experience in dealing with Competency based
qualifications... 

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 21:24 28/03/2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
   problems with Perl work in london,
 
 Are employers there too stupid to read CVs? Or too lazy? Or is
 there some other benefit certification bestows besides having you
 laughed at in the pub because you ("one", not personally of course :)
 automatically rank alongst all those other "paper" Perl programmers?
 
 http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
 strong.
 
 And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer
 in London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just
 started charging for tests.

Do they still claim that I'm the best perl programmer in the UK? If so
it's completely bloody surreal...

-- 
Piers




Re: Perl Certification Drive

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

"Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I think the money aspect is very important. This isn't YAS,
  it's supposed to
  be a professional qualification for professional programmers.
  300 sounds
  like a good number for me. "If it only costs a fiver then
  what good can it
  be" will be the PHB's attitude, I've seen this often.
 
 Yes, you are right. However, given the, ah, aversity of many perl
 programs to getting certified, I'd like to remove barriers to entry.
 If we can get the 'professional' stamp by sticking names like
 O'Reilly (Or Microsoft - why not?) on the certificates, and then
 charge less, I think that would be better. But if not, then I agree
 a charge (mayb more 50 than 300?!) can have a similar effect.

If we can get the standard for competency accepted as a National
Standard (will take a while), then any training that's based on those
standard will attract government funding for the trainees. Which would
be nice.

-- 
Piers





Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Piers Cawley

"Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 The recent .com crash has had many desirable effects as well as undesirable
 ones, and one of these is the devaluation in hype in .com related
 technologies. An awful lot of the value of the big packages is based on
 future value - "You don't need this software today, but you will in a year's
 time so buy it today and you'll be ahead of the competition and able to
 scale up fast when the orders start pouring in!". This doesn't carry much
 weight anymore.

Hmm... Given that big business seems to have bought some of the ideas
of 'Just In Time' stock holding and delivery type stuff, maybe the
time has come to start pushing Perl and open source programming as
being 'Just In Time Development'.

[FX: Makes note in the 'you really should turn this into some real
marketing literature' file.]

-- 
Piers




Re: Social Meeting (fwd)

2001-03-28 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:04:56PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  Hush now brother, contain thy enthusiasm, others are still not ready
  for the way of the heretic. We must consider them - they are the
  sheep that may prefer their 2 half pints of lager shandy in PO, and!,
  and if they are exposed to the intense mixture of heavy drinking and 
  rapant flames that is heresy, their minds may be weakened to such a state
  that python seems like a `nifty' idea to them.
 
 I should confess that I recently installed python on one of my boxen.
 Excuse: something else needed it.  However, I'd like to take a look at
 it sometime.  Same goes for Ruby.  More things for the to-do queue.
 
 I also installed Python on the Palm, cos I thought it was a nifty idea.
 I deleted it earlier today cos I thought putting Lovecraft books on
 there was a better use of memory.

Considers doing a description of Python as a Lovecraftian Elder god. 

Decides against it.

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
  
  On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:26:38PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  
   (my pseudo-transaction scheme for MySQL is basically : .. do this and
   return a closure to undo it if I to .. bung the closures in an array ..
   if something screws up then back it all off by walking along the array
   and executing the closures ... its not rocket science but it works ..
   sort of .. I used it for doing multiple inserts into a spread of tables
  
  I did something similar.  It worked too, until not only did an insert
  fail, but when I was backing out, a delete failed too.  There was much
  head-scratching.  A week later, the hard disk died and the head-scratching
  stopped.
 
 ;)) .. 
 
  Unfortunately, if you implement this sort of thing, mysql loses it's only
  advantage over other databases - speed.  But I wasn't allowed to upgrade
  to (eg) postgresql for silly reasons which I forget now.
 
 well .. since in most web based uses of MySQL the 99% of queries are
 simple 'select * from blah where something=something_else' .. the
 speed is all you need .. every now and again there is reason to add
 a user or, very occasionally, someone buys something .. and those
 bits have the pseudo-transactions in .. yeah .. its slow, but I'd
 ratehr have that bit slow and the rest lightning quick than pretyy
 much anything else ..

But the *REALLY IMPORTANT* uses of the database are the ones where
you're moving money about and doing order fulfillment. And guess what,
those *must* be transactional.

-- 
Piers




Re: mmm ... toys ..

2001-03-27 Thread Piers Cawley

James Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:59:18AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  mmm .. 
  
  by some dint of fate I appear to be the proud owner of a rather nice new
  Dell laptop.
  
  Bit slow ( 850mhz P3 ) and 128 mb of ram is hardly enough to run Vi in is
  it ..  a poxy 32Gb hard disc means I'll probably run out of space soon
  too. (thinks .. this is considerably more powerful than my workstation ..
  h..)
 
 Sounds acceptable to me, I'll have it if you don't want it.
 
 Alternatively if anyone has one of the titanium macs going spare?

Mmm neeed...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-26 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 y* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 11:41:33PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
Just to let you all know I'm on the market again.
Me too.
   er.. and me. 
  
  Who was it that was saying that the contract market was great just now?
  
 
 i think it was me, i dont want to go into this too much, but i think
 that a general perl consultancy (you know who you are) can take these
 guys, be very clever at marketting yourselves and prosper

Possibly. But given that our first client has just gone titsup.com
before we actually did any work for them (thank heavens for small
mercies,) I want to be in the position of having work lined up before
I start recruiting again. Or were you talking about NetThink?

-- 
Piers




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-22 Thread Piers Cawley

Andrew Bowman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 In Iceland they append 'son' for sons and 'dottir' for daughters -
 hence Magnus Magnusson is the son of Magnus, whilst Sally Magnusson
 would, in Iceland at least, be Sally Magnusdottir.

I used to work with an Icelandic chap who told me that the Rekjavik
phonebook is ordered by first name because they still use proper
patronyms. 

-- 
Piers




Re: ISO8601 [was] Re: Pointless, Badly-Written Module.

2001-03-21 Thread Piers Cawley

"Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  This site seems to confirm it tho:
 
  http://www.saqqara.demon.co.uk/datefmt.htm
 
 
 Hmmm, 11 reasons to use this format:
 
 5 of these reasons are "Because it makes it easier for me to write software
 if you do" which don't carry much weight IMNSHO
 
 However, in the spirit of standardisation, I'd like to suggest:
 
 1. Please can we stop this silly 'firstname lastname' format. The most
 significant string (family name) should come first, with a standard
 delimiter (comma) before the first name (which should come last). This is
 what bibliographies and libraries have used for years, so should everyone
 else. Please use:
 LASTNAME, [FIRSTNAME|FIRST INITIAL]
 
 2. The address format is a real mess, being least significant string first,
 and no clear guide as to whether comma or newline or both are the acceptable
 delimiters. Also, the location of the postcode string is arbitrary, and in
 any case the postcode repeats information and is often redundant. However,
 since postcodes can be easily fed into computer programs, and are language
 independant, they should replace all that other stuff.
 Please use:
 ISO planet code, ISO country code, POSTCODE, Building Number[, apartment
 number][, business name]
 
 Note also that country code is compulsory. In the past post offices assumed
 that addresses without a country code were local and assumed the 'current'
 country as the one required for delivery. This sort of assumption landed us
 in the Y2K mess where people foolishly assumed that a year was in the
 'current' century, for some silly reason.

Can I commend ISO 11180 to you?

-- 
Piers




Re: Matt's Scripts

2001-03-14 Thread Piers Cawley

Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Finding out where perl is 
 
 parody
 Stop, stop, this script archive is not ready yet!  Where are the Hello
 world examples?  Where are the detailed instructions?  And why are you
 actually working on these scripts yet!
 /parody
 
 You're all getting ahead of yourselves.  We need to write a set of
 helloWorld scripts that the script user can upload first to find out the
 basic facts about their server and check everything is working.
 
 a) You have multiple copys of the script with different shebang lines on
 the top.  Only one of these will work and one of the things it'll do is
 print our is "The first line of programs you upload to this server should
 be #!/blah/perl"
 
 b) It checks your perl version is reasonable.  Actually it probably should
 do this before a) in case there are several versions installed.
 
 c) It tests if you've got a borken version of CGI.pm (or CGI.pm at all) by
 looking at version numbers, etc.  Same for other modules.
 
 d) It links to an image in the same directory as itself and explains that
 if the image isn't viewable then you do not have inplace cgi and the
 things you have to know about this
 
 e) It prints out the time, and GMT time thus highlighting to the user any
 problems they might have if this is wrong
 
 f) It prints out a hunk of diagnostic information (e.g. perl version,
 module versions, url, etc, etc)

Ooh, 'configure.cgi'.

If only we could assume that they had a working perl on the box that
they were installing from then we could write a cunning installer
script which uploaded configure.cgi to the ISP and interrogated it via
a LWP::... client to get a bunch of configuration stuff, which could
then be used to generate a list of scripts that could run on the
user's ISP, and which could then go on and upload the scripts.

Ooh... You don't even have to assume working perl on their box. You
stick the interrogation stuff on the 'Not Matt's scripts' website. The
punter then says "I want to run these scripts on such an ISP". NMS
then checks to see if it has information about that ISP cached, and
provides the appropriate scripts if so, or a copy of configure.cgi for
the punter to upload. Once the punter has done the upload, he sets off
an interrogation phase, which works out the capabilities of the
particular user's environment and builds an appropriate script set.

Hmm... it's just a simple matter of programming...

-- 
Piers




Re: Damian's Diary

2001-03-13 Thread Piers Cawley

Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dave Cross wrote:
  Damian's hectic world tour has now finished and he's had time 
  to update his online diary. He says a lot of nice things about
  us here 
  http://www.yetanother.org/damian/diary_February_2001.html#day_31.
 
 Not least of which, perhaps, is
 
 The presence of Piers Cawley, Dave Cross, Greg McCarroll,
 Lon Brocard, and Tony Bowden also meant that at that one
 gathering I was able to spend time with the contributers of
 over half my YAS grant. It was very humbling to think that
 this community of clever and competent people had shown such
 faith in me. 
 
 Not some faceless American corporation, but London.pmers (with values of
 "London" including Belfast and wherever Piers lives).

Well, London is where I tend to work. I live in Newark on Trent.
Somehow I don't think Damian is going to manage to find time to visit
me there though.

-- 
Piers




Re: London.pm List Weekly Summary 2001-02-26

2001-03-02 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Philip Newton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Greg McCarroll wrote:
   
   * Simon Wistow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
This summary has been bought to you by the letters Alpha, Beta and
Gamma, the numbers 1,3,5,7 all superimposed and the colour Octarine.
   
   and 2, please 2, it'll keep me happy, then we can discuss if 1 is
   a prime number, ples
  
  I propose that 1 be prime if, and only if, 1 is not prime.
  
 
 No, definetly not. The partial set of prime numbers increases over
 the journey through integers. 1 is the logical starting point,
 and so it is added. This is the very spirit of primality. However
 this may be the rantings of a madman, it's just i feel like a jockey
 sometimes as i ride the sequence of prime numbers, jumping each
 new one and then feeling their occurence decrease.

Go to (void). Go directly to (void). Do not pass Go. Do not collect
200. 

-- 
Piers




Re: Last Night

2001-02-27 Thread Piers Cawley

Dominic Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 04:38:49AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
  p.s. And don't get me started on my nightmare journey. I thought that
  all night buses went thru Trafalgar Sq - the N19 doesn't :(
 
 Ugh.  At least I got on the right end of the train and ended upin
 Brighton...  I think that connex just split the trains in two just to
 confuse people. :-(

Well, I got home at 3am. Just missed the ~2200 train and the next one
was at 2325. And you can't go to sleep on a train when you're getting
off halfway through the journey...

-- 
Piers




Re: lvalue subroutines

2001-02-27 Thread Piers Cawley

"Ian Brayshaw" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Hi,
 
 Given the following lvalue subroutine
 
   sub mysub : lvalue {
   $value;
   }
 
 is there any way for mysub() to be able to determine that it
 was called in an lvalue context?

No. If you need to know that sort of thing, you kind of have to tie
the $value that you're going to return, and use that as a proxy for
the *actual* value. If you're called in an lvalue context then the
tied object is going to have its STORE method called...

-- 
Piers




Re: geek football

2001-02-27 Thread Piers Cawley

Mike Jarvis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Tuesday, February 27, 2001, 11:54:15 AM, Hamlet D'Arcy wrote:
 
 HDA As an American in the audience of Quantum::Superpositions last night I have 
 HDA one question.
 
 HDA What in the world is a 'geek football pool'?
 
 Just be glad they didn't start playing "Slap the Yank".

He was out of reach.

-- 
Piers




Re: lvalue subroutines

2001-02-27 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:50:26PM +1100, Ian Brayshaw wrote:
  Given the following lvalue subroutine
  
  sub mysub : lvalue {
  $value;
  }
  
  is there any way for mysub() to be able to determine that it
  was called in an lvalue context?
 
 Yeah there is, but you're not going to like it :-)

Oh! Yes! Baby!!! 

That's almost as good as ()^0.5.

-- 
Piers, who confesses that he did find himself wondering what (-)^0.5
would do (that's 'square root of - not' BTW)





Re: lvalue subroutines

2001-02-27 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 01:46:49PM +, Piers Cawley wrote:
 
  That's almost as good as ()^0.5.
 
 I was thinking about that on the way to work.
 
 AIUI, square roots apply to numbers, so how can you have a square root of
 something that isn't a number, like an operator?  You may as well say that
 you can take the square root of anything - like the square root of equals,
 or the square root of a pony.
 
 Calling that thing the square root of an operator is a bit misleading to
 say the least.  OK, it may appear to have some properties of a square root
 operation, but a square root it ain't.

I have to disagree. Part of the power of mathematics comes from
looking at something, seeing that it works like something else,
proving that, and then continuing to call it something else because
that then gives you all the stuff you know about the 'something else'.

And 'square root' is just an operation on something. If you can
meaningfully do that operation to something that isn't a number (and
in the maths associated with QM, obviously, you can) then go for it.

(I not that, in the slide, ()^0.5 is refered to as U_SRN. Presumably
because the idea gives the mathematicians headaches too, so they hide
it slightly behind another symbol)

-- 
Piers




Re: Do what I mean!

2001-02-27 Thread Piers Cawley

Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  We can reason that there is a Perl Core that spans multiple dimensions
  so there must be a finite probability that there is one. Somewhere.
  Possibly in a galaxy, far far away.
 
 Actually some of the quantum computing people believe that the
 parallel calculations before they collapse to the result are _really_
 taking place in alternative worlds.

I still think they're actually orthogonal universes, but that's mere
quibbling.

-- 
Piers




Re: No http://london.pm/ :-(

2001-02-24 Thread Piers Cawley

Dominic Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 10:15:27AM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
  On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 10:06:07AM +, Paul Mison wrote:
   On 22/02/2001 at 16:24 +, Dave Cross wrote:
   IIRC we also investigated the possibility of registering pm.org.uk,
   but Nominet have a silly rule that prevents anyone from having third
   level domains with only two characters :(
   But organisations as diverse as the British Library, Parliament, the
   police and the NHS all get second level domains in the UK heirarchy.
   Grr. Argh. (The British Library can be found at http://bl.uk/ which is
   probably the shortest possible UK web server address.)
  
  That's for legacy reasons, IIRC.
 
 There's still a lot of suckage there.  Do our beloved[1] leaders really
 need:
 
 gov.uk
 govt.uk
 parliament.uk
 
 ?

There is a distinction to be drawn (which is kind of important,
especially if you're a member of the opposition) between parliament.uk
and gov.uk. Dunno what govt.uk is doing there though.

-- 
Piers




Re: Testing .. but not as I know it

2001-02-14 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, you wrote:
 
   to wit, testing of object based modules. Firstly what do people generally
   use for this? Test::Unit ?? or is there something more freindly out
   there?
  
  Test::Unit *almost* does the right thing, but looking through the code
  there are some horrible things being done (by someone who doesn't seem
  to understand the reflection/introspection and dynamic features of
  Perl),
 
 they didn't even understand 'use strict;' so I expect there are other
 gaps too
 
 since it does *almost* the right thing and I *almost* know what I'm doing
 with it .. I'll hang with it then for now.

  and the test suite it comes with doesn't seem to have
  desperately good coverage of the various testing modules. Which is why
  I'm working on it...
 
 uh huh .. I noticed various bits of the Tk gui were a little err 'sub
 obtimal' :) ... 
 
 lerrus know when you get it nailed down then.
 
   secondly abstraction:
   
   If I have , say a 'data' object 
  
  Why does the data object have to know how/if it's stored? Have a data
  librarian object which is responsible for handling moving objects into
  and out of storage. Then test the librarian to make sure that it can
  retrieve stuff in the appropriate fashion, and do your data object
  unit testing (possibly) without even having the librarian loaded up.
  If you *do* find that you need to have the librarian loaded for some
  of the data object's methods to work, think hard and see if you can't
  find some way of removing that dependency. 
 
 uh huh ... sorta got that ... so basically anything with anything that
 looks like sql or a $dbh handle ends up in the Librarian .. the outer
 class has all the other stuff  I aint sure about the 'without even
 having the librarian loaded' bit .. surely you test the librarian and
 then test the outer class with the librarian loaded iff the librarian
 passes its tests? .. otherwise you end up having to write a dummy
 librarian class that has every chance of not correctly behaving as the
 real librarian .. or do you just run the librarian tests on the dummy
 class as well?/ ... I though the idea was to build from ground zero, and
 include tested base classes into higher order classes and then test them
 as you go along .. or is that not it? ... 

Okay, we're into 'ideal situations here', but here goes.

Consider a clothes catalogue, with, say, the following classes:

ProductLine (ie Levis 501s)

StockItem, inherits from ProductLine (ie Levis 501s, 32W 34L, stone
washed)

Then, to set up the objects we'd do something like:

  my $levis = 
  ProductLine-new(category_name = 'Levis 501s',
   description = '...',
   stock_item_attribs = [...]);

  $levis-new_stock_item(waist = 32, length = 34,
 finish = 'blue stonewashed',
 quantity = 100);

The new_stock item method would then create a stock item (possibly
with a weakref back to its parent productline, but that's dependent on
whether we're ever going to need to use that...), and one of the
product lines would have a list of stock items associated with it.

Then, we could write a method to find all the actual items in stock by
doing something like:

   sub ProductLine::items_in_stock {
   my $self = shift;
   grep {$_-quantity  0} $self-stock_items;
   }

Which wouldn't have to deal with the database at all.

If the librarian does the Right Thing, then we could say to it:

   $librarian-store($levis) 

and it would go away and store not only the $levis ProductLine object,
but also its associated stock items. And, when we come to reload the
$levis productline then it will either reload all its stock items, or
will place 'proxy' objects in their place which will trigger the
reloading of the real object when required. (Doing it this way stops
the reload of a single item doing a 'six degrees of separation' trick
and pulling in the entire object web.)

At a higher level, we could stick all our product lines into some top
level Catalogue object and simply stash that in the database, but it may
be that we should actually conflate the Catalogue with the librarian
to make for more memory efficient searches for products.

The point of taking this approach is that, when we want to test
ProductLine and StockItem there is no need to worry about how they are
stored, we can simply write a bunch of code that sets up a bunch of
productlines and stockitems and test away in that environment. 

When we want to test the Catalogue, then of course we're going to need
a database standing by, but we can use a dummy, empty database, set up
a bunch of objects, store 'em and test that storage and reloading work
like they're supposed to.

Which is, admittedly, not the initial approach I mentioned to you in
private email, but I've thought about it some more since then.

  The difference between a Unit test and an Acceptance test is that 

Re: NY invasion, was Re: Conway Hall

2001-02-12 Thread Piers Cawley

Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On 12/02/2001 at 19:59 +, David H. Adler wrote:
 On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 07:37:14PM +, Paul Mison wrote:
  On 12/02/2001 at 19:36 +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
   Well, now that you have something to work with, I can get the
 querying
   in motion...
  
   About how many people are we talking about?  Any idea?
  
  i just sent a list of about 8~10 people ( i think )
 
  Yeah, 10 +- usual errors (people who didn't know and have changed their
  minds, people running out of cash, etc, etc).
 
 FWIW, 10 is commonly the minimum for a "group".  A group rate isn't the
 only way to go, but it's one option...
 
 Hmm. I assume group is cheaper, though. Well, of the list, I'd be
 surprised if that many dropped out, and I had stupidly forgotten Grep's
 interest, so that takes us up to 12. Which may be enough to guarantee a
 group. Aah, tricksy.

Am I down as interested? If not, I am. Am I down as interesting? Er...

-- 
Piers




Re: NY invasion, was Re: Conway Hall

2001-02-12 Thread Piers Cawley

"Mike Jarvis" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 David H. Adler wrote:
  On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:32:08PM -0500, Mike Jarvis wrote:
   
   When looking at cost, remember what hotel rates in NYC are like 
  (almost as
   bad as London).  You can easily pay US$250/night for a room 
  that you would
   swear is in a crack house.
  
  But the crack is *great*!
 
 Rooms actually in a crack house will be significantly more
 expensive.

But possibly safer too...




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