Re: Templating Solutions

2001-06-18 Thread Struan Donald

* at 18/06 17:21 +0100 Roger Burton West said:
 On Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:36:00PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
 The main reason I prefer H::T to T::T is that H::T templates can be
 given to Dreamweaver monkeys to edit without my having to worry that
 they'll screw them up.

That is an important consideration although in my experience a
taleneted dreamweaver mokey can screw up pretty much anything that
isn't created by dreamweaver in the first place.

struan



Re: YAPC::Europe (Ignore this request)

2001-06-15 Thread Struan Donald

* at 15/06 14:41 +0100 Greg McCarroll said:
 
 Ok, ignore this request now. Also thanks to Simon Wilcox. for helping me out 
 here.
 
 I also believe others are flying on this flight, so it looks like we have
 the official flight for London.pm ;-) and thanks to Jouke we can claim
 to have an official London.pm hotel - with minibars and minigolf

somehow i just can't see offical hotel of london.pm being used in
the marketing material...

struan



Re: London.pm - FAQ for web site (was books or something).

2001-06-14 Thread Struan Donald

* at 14/06 14:55 +0100 Leo Lapworth said:
 Well, as has been muttered about I am redoing the London.pm.org website.
 
 And yes it DOES need a faq, I have the start of one, but would very much 
 love someone else to finish it off.
 
 So, If anyone is up for it give me a yell and I'll email you the XML 
 that needs populating.
 
 The website development is a dictatorship (e.g. we want it done this year 
 so I'm not taking any comments or suggestions until after it's gone live), 
 so no starting of huge discussions about what should go in a FAQ, if your 
 interested and have an opinion, contact me and you can do it! :)
 
 Infact now I think about it, 2 faq's would be good.
 
 1) London.pm - the FAQs
 2) General - like where to buy books online / hardware etc
 
 So maybe there are two people out there who want to write these.

er, i'll go for the general one... 

struan



Re: www.gateway.gov.uk

2001-06-12 Thread Struan Donald

* at 11/06 21:38 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
 On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Chris Benson wrote:
 
  Didn't ukonline.co.uk complain about trademark infringement a while back?
  
  Is gateway.gov.uk the result?  and is there any possible trademark confusion 
  with this address?
 
 ring ring
 'hello .. is that the government? .. oh good. I'd like to complain about
 trademark infringement by one of your sites ..'
 
 pause
 
 'yes .. yes .. oh I see .. yes .. no, no you are quite right I don;t want
 to spend the the next 20 years talking to VAT inspectors and men from the
 Inland Revenue ... ah forget I ever called, by the way, did I mention
 waht a fantastic set of teeth Tony has?'

that really is terribly cynical of you. i really can't imagine a
giverment as benevolent and trustworthy as ours even contemplating
such a thing.

struan



Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)

2001-06-08 Thread Struan Donald

* at 08/06 11:35 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
 On Fri, 08 Jun 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  calling wordpad an editor is as laughable as calling vi an editor ;-)
 
 arrghh .. burn the heretic! ... speak brother, for the truth will out ..
 have you been using [x{0,1]]emacs again ... ?

and thus comes the inevitable end[1] to all unix geek discussions...

struan

[1] or at least end to the bit not based on flames and blind prejudice
:)



Re: Religion (was Re: M$ SQueaLServer)

2001-06-08 Thread Struan Donald

* at 08/06 11:54 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
 
 pah! .. tis written in the scripture ... 'let he who hath one eye be
 blessed'  .. clearly the 'one eye' is a reference to the one 'i' in vi ..
 its *obvious* innit ... I shall found my entire religion on this shadowy
 fact wriiten by our lord himself ( or one of his followers, or perhaps
 someone just mistranslated it .. or made it up ) however ... if anyone
 questions me I shall explain that 'thats what faith is all about' and mark
 them up for burning as well ... 

in future years this may be marked down as the dawning of the second
dark age.

struan



Re: London.pm posting stats

2001-06-07 Thread Struan Donald

* at 07/06 04:26 -0700 Paul Makepeace said:
 This is dated from beginning of last year, and mutt is saying that's
 about 13,700 messages (gasp!). Note that some people
 (cough/dcrosscough/) appear more than once. Not that a) they
 necessarily need it b) have any hope, ever, of catching Greg...

snip type=pretty pitures/

this is almost as bad as those games that make a point of letting you
know exactly how long you've played it. 

struan



Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

2001-05-25 Thread Struan Donald

* at 24/05 23:18 +0100 Greg McCarroll said:
 
 p.s. at the risk of raising the heckles of BlackStar, does anyone
 know the URL of the company based in the channel islands (or isle
 of mann) that sell american dvds to the UK at the time they
 are released in the US? 247 or something?

http://www.play247.com/ would be them. 

struan



Re: Ken Campbell is a god (was: pc components)

2001-05-18 Thread Struan Donald

* at 18/05 14:51 +0100 Cross David - dcross said:
 From: Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 2:34 PM
 
  On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 06:05:44AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote:
   Im nogat samting til ridim insait long pastaim Klingon!
   
   Damian (longlong tisa Perlpela)
  
  Lingua::TokPisin::Perlpela?
 
 Nooo!
 
 Damian - as a sponsor, I'm _begging_ you not to do this :)

if that works you just have to hope the blackstar people don't decide
it's a good idea :)

struan



Re: Happy Happy Joy Joy!

2001-05-18 Thread Struan Donald

* at 18/05 12:54 -0400 David H. Adler said:
 On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:20:47AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
  I finally received my copy of TPJ in the mail yesterday. And there was much
  rejoicing :)
 
 If it makes anyone feel better, I just heard from Mr. Orwant that *his*
 copy hasn't arrived yet... :-)
 
 dha, who thinks the overseas copies got somehow shipped before the
 domestic ones...

but that'd mean you got yours first :)

struan



Re: A look over the shoulder of an XP programmer (auf deutsch)

2001-05-16 Thread Struan Donald

* at 16/05 15:22 +0100 Simon Cozens said:
 On Wed, May 16, 2001 at 02:41:58PM +0100, James Powell wrote:
   You've hit the fundamental problem with XP. Getting anything done
   requires two programmers to agree on something; this, as everyone
   knows, is impossible.
  
  No it isn't!
 
 That's not argument, it's just contradiction!

must resist temptation

struan



Re: BOFHs requiring license

2001-05-14 Thread Struan Donald

* at 13/05 16:41 +0100 Greg McCarroll said:
 * Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  At 15:27 13/05/2001, Simon Cozens wrote:
  On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 03:30:31AM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/18866.html
Absurd, laughable and bizarre. What *is* wrong with the UK?
  
  Don't ask me, you elected 'em. And it looks like you're all stupid enough
  to do it *again*.
  
  troll type=politics
  I know, I know. Blair doesn't have a socialist bone in his body - it's been 
  a _most_ disappointing four years, all i all.
  
  But given that the Socialist Alliance are only standing in ~100 
  constituencies, there doesn't seem to be any credible alternative.
  /troll
 
 
 if only the SNP covered the whole of the UK

my experience of the snp is that the average supporter is a lot more
interested in 'getting rid of the english' rather than any of their
more useful policies. of course that doesn't neccessarily go for those
withing the party but given that independance is their whole reason
for existing[1] there must be some element of that in there.

struan

[1] why does that sound so much more cumbersome than the french
equivalent?



Re: BOFHs requiring license

2001-05-14 Thread Struan Donald

* at 14/05 12:13 +0100 duncan said:
 
 The money has to be raised somehow.
 
 selling 3rd generation mobile phone licences for extortionate figures, 
 thereby taxing the population once again?

wasn't it an auction? i like to look on this as some sort of crack
induced madness on the side of tha various telcos involved in which
thet actually belived the hype aboug 3G comming out of their marketing
departments.

struan



Re: Politics (was RE: BOFHs requiring license)

2001-05-14 Thread Struan Donald

* at 14/05 12:16 +0100 Matthew Jones said:
  Ah, yes. That's like we're listening, isn't it, in response to the
  fuel crisis? We're not going to do anything, but we're happy 
  to listen.
 
 That narked me about the fuel protestors. They claimed the government
 aren't listening. Listen ne cave in to the selfish demands of a few
 protestors who happen to be holding the nation to ransom (unwittingly in
 cahoots, some say, with the oil companies).

mmm, some of it was selfishness although for the rural (and when i say
rural i don't mean the home counties) types the cose of fuel really is
a big issue. if you live 30 miles from the nearest major shopping
centre then the cost of fuel really is an issue.

it's a tricky one as there are clearly any number of idiots who
persist in driving to work in london who should be taxed to the hilts
but you have to do it in a way that targets them and not people who
_have_ to use a car. which more or less means congestion charges.
 
 You can listen and still say no. 

aka the first rule of dealing with marketing departments :)

struan



Re: putting escape characters in files

2001-05-11 Thread Struan Donald

* at 11/05 11:32 +0100 Roger Burton West said:
 On or about Fri, May 11, 2001 at 10:48:41AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson typed:
 
 You know, from the outside, Unix looks so well designed and clean and modern...
 
 From the outside, Windows looks as if it works.
 
 ObRant: computers and OSes in their current state are not consumer devices.
 They're not sufficiently reliable or intuitive. Bad marketing has made
 people think they need the things; most of them are wrong...

you just have to see that people have trouble with palm's sometimes
and they are so much more simple to realise that your average fully
fledged computer in not a consumer device.

but then any reasonably flexible multi-purpose device is always going
to have a hard time being a consumer device as by it's nature it's
complex and trying to make complex things appear simple is very very
hard.

OTOH, if it was simple it's be no fun :) [1]

struan

[1] usual caveats regarding definition of fun apply



Re: putting escape characters in files

2001-05-11 Thread Struan Donald

* at 11/05 11:49 +0100 Dave Hodgkinson said:
 Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Putting pretty interfaces on existing unstable systems does not
  help to make them simpler...
 
 That's part of it. Landing a thudding great book of what the thing
 _can_ do, rather than a cookbook of what you _want_ it to do is very
 offputting.

but then what you want to do differs greatly for different people so
instead of one book with lots of information you have to sift through
you get lots of books you have to sift through to find the right one.
I imagine most computer neophytes find their first visit to the
computer section of any large bookshop pretty damn confusing to start
with. 

plus you're assuming people know what they want to do, or even what
they can do. The fact that you could have _two_ windows open at once
was a revelation to a friends dad recently. 

There is a very real argument for devices that do one thing and one
thing only but do it in a very simple way without all the flimflam
that accompanies most modern computers. Donald Norman has quite a few
good books on this.

 Or make it like the Tivo - it just works.

which is kind of a proof of the one thing very well point.

struan



Re: putting escape characters in files

2001-05-11 Thread Struan Donald

* at 11/05 12:07 +0100 Dave Hodgkinson said:
 Struan Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  There is a very real argument for devices that do one thing and one
  thing only but do it in a very simple way without all the flimflam
  that accompanies most modern computers. Donald Norman has quite a few
  good books on this.
 
 Agreed, but they MUST talk to each other. Securely and knowingly.

see Donald Norman. he talks about all this stuff.

struan



Re: TBA?

2001-05-10 Thread Struan Donald

* at 10/05 10:22 +0100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 is a venue decided on for tonights meeting, or is it still TBA?

shuffles through mailbox for weekly summary

Don't forget the London.pm website for meetings etc. The next meeting
is a social meeting and has been postponed for a week to the Thursday
10th May. It will be at the Penderel's Oak:
http://london.pm.org/

struan



NMS formmail

2001-05-10 Thread Struan Donald

is this useable as i have someone in the office using the real version
and difficulties with it and i'd quite like to be able to say:

ah ah! you should use this instead.

ta

struan



putting escape characters in files

2001-05-10 Thread Struan Donald

kind of off topic but how do you get things like ^M and such like into
a file for, say, writing vi macros?

i've had a look through some docs but i'm beggining to suspect it's
one of those bit of unix aracana know to a chosen few. or is there
some site/resource that contains this info?

ta

struan



Re: putting escape characters in files

2001-05-10 Thread Struan Donald

* at 10/05 16:37 +0100 Dominic Mitchell said:
 On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:35:29PM +0100, Struan Donald wrote:
  kind of off topic but how do you get things like ^M and such like into
  a file for, say, writing vi macros?
  
  i've had a look through some docs but i'm beggining to suspect it's
  one of those bit of unix aracana know to a chosen few. or is there
  some site/resource that contains this info?
 
 Generally you can enter a control character into vi and most Unix shells
 by pressing ^V and then the character you want.

ah, thanks
 
 In Emacs, it's ^Q, then the character you want.

only ^Q? that's not like emacs :)

struan



Re: sing if you're happy that way

2001-05-08 Thread Struan Donald

* at 08/05 13:04 +0100 Matthew Jones said:
 Wisty - next T-shirt please:
 
 use strict
   is gay
 
 Heh. On the back -w is jolly?

surely the back should be:

CHOPS

struan



Re: sing if you're happy that way

2001-05-08 Thread Struan Donald

* at 08/05 15:18 +0100 Andrew Bowman said:
 Excuse me for my ignorance of this matter, however I can't figure out what
 'CHOPS' means in this context (and am sure I'm not alone among London PMers,
 at least not on this question).
 
 According to acronymfinder.com it's Controlled Humidity Operational
 Preservation System, but I doubt this is what the tiresome oik on
 crackwood.com or cookpot.com or whatever it is was referring to.

as bizzaro insults/putdowns go Controlled Humidity... has a kinda neat
ring to it.
 
 Nor does Jeeves know either.

i suspect this is it though:

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/channel-op.html

although it still doesn't ring true.

sreuan



Re: Apocalypse Two

2001-05-04 Thread Struan Donald

* at 04/05 10:22 +0100 Dave Hodgkinson said:
 Struan Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  i kind of like - from a visual point of view.
 
 much more like APL... ;-)

i'd not know about that. seem to recall seeing an example of APL in a
book once and it looked very scary. or it might have been ADA. 

still, if damian gets his way we'll no doubt be able to have
modules/filters that mean we can still use - :) 

struan



Re: tube strike / may meeting postponed til 10th

2001-05-03 Thread Struan Donald

* at 03/05 10:28 +0100 Mark Fowler said:
 On Wed, 2 May 2001, Struan Donald wrote:
 
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1307000/1307103.stm
 
  for those who don't get a kick out of seeing server errors :)
 
 Which we all know you don't ever get on news.bbc.co.ukeven when a page
 you're looking for doesn't exist

good grief, neither it does. what can they be thinking?

struan



Re: cocktails

2001-05-03 Thread Struan Donald

* at 03/05 12:42 +0100 Simon Wistow said:
 Chris Heathcote wrote:
 
  Off the top of my head:
  ICA bar, Match (Noho/Farringdon/Sosho), lab (on Old Compton St.), aka...
  also heard about Smiths of Smithfield, but never been there.
 
 For true geekdom go get cocktails go to Cynthia's Cyberbar
 
 http://www.cynbar.co.uk/
 
 where you are served cocktails by a robot.

although poss not on a sunday afternoon. certainly no robotic serving
of a saturday afternoon (although this was 1ish so maybe a bit early)
plus all that shiny metal surface decor is very unpleasant very
quickly.

struan



Re: tube strike / may meeting postponed til 10th

2001-05-02 Thread Struan Donald

* at 02/05 16:51 +0100 Leon Brocard said:
 jo walsh sent the following bits through the ether:
  
  well, it looks like the tube strike (8pm Weds 2nd May - 8pm Thurs 3rd May)
  is still on, and this will scupper our May social meeting plans rather.
 
 It's not anymore, but we shouldn't shift the date again:
 http://www.thetube.com/content/pressreleases/

or

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1307000/1307103.stm

for those who don't get a kick out of seeing server errors :)

struan



Re: Company Name

2001-04-25 Thread Struan Donald

* at 25/04 09:02 +0100 Robert Shiels said:
 I've decided to set up my own company and become a contractor. There are
 quite a lot of decisions to be made, but the hardest one I'm finding is
 thinking of a company name! So far my only ideas are simply Shiels or
 Shiels Consulting; this is fairly obvious, and I already own the
 shiels.com domain. I guess I could try Shiels Enterprises or Shiels Inc,
 but they seem pretty naff.
 
 How did contractors here come up with the names for their companies, and can
 you think of anything with Shiels in the name that sounds good. I will
 mainly be doing SAP work, but hope to get other IT work too, so don't want
 SAP in the name.

you could always try one of those anagram generators. 

struan



Re: Company Name

2001-04-25 Thread Struan Donald

* at 25/04 13:15 +0100 Jonathan Stowe said:
 On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:
 
  I've decided to set up my own company and become a contractor. There are
  quite a lot of decisions to be made, but the hardest one I'm finding is
  thinking of a company name!
 
 Get the domain off Paul and call it PerlIsMyBitch Ltd.

and randal thought the t-shirts were bad?

struan



Re: Beginners Guide

2001-04-23 Thread Struan Donald

* at 21/04 10:14 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
 On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, you wrote:
 
  I read it as not wanting to fund the various commercial entities one
  ends up funding in order to actual get a digital box. The idea of
  putting any more money in the Murdoch empires coffers just for the
  sake of getting News 24 and BBC Choice certainly doesn't appeal.
 
 ahh .. re read yes .. that would be another interpretation ...
 but, again,  it certainly used to be the case and AFAIK it still is that
 you can get ( it might be 3 quid or something $ trivial to cover the cost
 of hte card) a BBC only card that is free on production of your TV
 licence. I know Murdoch et al were not very keen on the idea and try and
 tell you it 'cant be done' etc but ISTR the DTI telling em to just shut
 up and do it.

and almost as if in answer to this i noticed a great many ads for
digital tv wjile vegging in front of smtv on saturday that made much
of the fact that you bought it and itv2 was free, free, free! as it
also showed tvs with news24 etc i imagine all your favourite bbc
digital channels are also free.

struan



next social meeting vs tube strike

2001-04-19 Thread Struan Donald

Noticed on my way past the news stands last night that the next tube
strike is pencilled in for May the 3rd, as is the next social
meeting.  OK, so the strike might not happen but if it does is this 
not going to make the next social meeting a bit problematic?

just a thought.

Struan



Re: next social meeting vs tube strike

2001-04-19 Thread Struan Donald

* at 19/04 15:04 +0100 dcross - David Cross said:
 From: Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 2:48 PM
 
  Struan Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   Noticed on my way past the news stands last night that the next tube
   strike is pencilled in for May the 3rd, as is the next social
   meeting.  OK, so the strike might not happen but if it does is this 
   not going to make the next social meeting a bit problematic?
  
  why don't you have the social meeting a day earlier so that everyone
  can "work from home" with their hangovers the following day?
 
 You mean hold a meeting that's not on a Thursday. Hmm... interesting
 concept. I'm not sure that the rules cater for that possibility.
 
 Let me think about. Might need an EGM this evening. Hope we're quorate.

Dunno, don't the strikes tend to start the evening before the day[1]? I'd
be wary of holding in any time round the 3rd.

struan

[1] or the evening of the second to be less confusing



CPAN search from mozilla address bar

2001-04-18 Thread Struan Donald

no idea if anyone will find this useful but:

if you use mozilla (on linux/*nix at least) stick this:

search
   name="CPAN"
   description="CPAN Search"
   method="GET"
   action="http://search.cpan.org/search"


input name="mode" value="module"
input name="query" user

/search

in a file called cpan.src in the searhcplugins directory of your
mozilla install. restart mozilla. go the the internet search options, 
select CPAN as your default Search Engine and hey presto, you can now
search cpan direct from the mozilla address bar.

only don't tick the display in my sidebar option as it doesn't work. 

struan



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Struan Donald

* at 18/04 11:58 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
 On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:
 
  IMHO the Linux port is an afterthought, most of the effort seems to have
  been focused on the Windows side, the integration with Visual Studio
  springs to mind.
 
 umm ... since Linux accounts (at a guess) for 75% of Perl usauge, thats
 quite an 'afterthought'. My guess is they see ActiveState Perl as taking
 over the world and these tools are simply there to help get it to that
 position. 

i do love the sound of figures being plucked from thin air.

struan



Re: Mourning clothes for London.pm

2001-04-18 Thread Struan Donald

* at 18/04 17:47 +0100 Dominic Mitchell said:
 On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 05:43:20PM +0100, dcross - David Cross wrote:
  Alexis Denisof (who plays Wesley) is going out with Alyson Hannigan
  (Willow).
 
 For some reason, this is made even worse by the automatic word
 association of "Wesley" and "Crusher".

ah, the curse of the TNG generation. I imagine there'll be a real dearth
of wesleys for the next 10 to 20 years.

struan



Re: NWS (was Re: Technical Meeting - 19th April)

2001-04-17 Thread Struan Donald

* at 17/04 14:09 +0100 Mark Fowler said:
 On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Struan Donald wrote:
  surely there should be a better way than this? after all the
  combinations involved are quite numerous. is the notion of something
  that does :
  
  #!/bin/sh
  
  if [ -e /usr/bin/perl ]; then
  exec './bin_perl.pl'
  fi
  
  or equivalent too silly? although not sure this sort of thing is possible
  on non unix type systems. OTOH would at least cut down the number of
  files that the person installing needs to worry about.
 
 I don't particularly see the number of scripts this person is installing
 as a problem.  The key concept is that these scripts are designed so that
 someone who knows *nothing* about their system can basically upload them
 all then see which one works.  Once they've got this script working the
 script should contain instructions on how to modify any of the
 other scripts to work with their server.

it's not so much the number of scripts as the "try each of these
scripts till one works" situation i think we should be trying to
minimise. 
 
 I don't think what you're suggesting will work at all on windows.  Or pure
 mod_perl...

true. although the number of people using mod_perl who'll be using
these is debatable. windows is a problem though.

 Feel free to disagree, I'm just suggesting ideas here.  Honestly, I'm not
 sure what's the best way...

heck, anything that helps is better than the "your isp will know"
school of help.

struan



NWS (was Re: Technical Meeting - 19th April)

2001-04-11 Thread Struan Donald

* at 11/04 08:28 +0100 Mark Fowler said:
 On Mon, 9 Apr 2001, dcross - David Cross wrote:

 
snip
 
 I'll also be able to give a quick status update on the website for NMS
 (probably at the same time as I'll be using it as my example)

what is the status of the NMS thing. i'm liable to have some spare time
over the weekend so if there's anything that needs doing on this i could
have a bash.

struan



Re: TPJ Reborn

2001-04-11 Thread Struan Donald

* at 11/04 17:50 +0100 Greg McCarroll said:
 * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:10:12PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
   Paul Mison sent the following bits through the ether:
   
If you're going to do IRC style karma-ing, at least make sure there's a
bot present
   
   ... and before someone magically has enough time to link dipsy to
   email, no email bots please! ;-)
  
  Sorry, ol bean, I'm already piping this list through two bots (my archiver
  and my URL-hunter).  They don't say anything in public though.  Yet.
 
 point of order - they are filters, not bots

point of information: isn't that a point of information?

struan



Re: Technical Meeting - 19th April

2001-04-10 Thread Struan Donald

* at 10/04 09:15 +0100 Greg McCarroll said:
 * Marcel Grunauer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 04:56:28PM +0100, Struan Donald wrote:
   
   nowhere we might be tempted to sit by the thames till the wee small
   hours generating tremendous hangovers :)
  
  "sit"? IIRC, you tried to lean against a bench but unfortunately
  were standing between two benches, landing on the ground face-down.
  
 
 its a good job he had lots of `anasthetic' that night, or that would
 of really hurt

not at the time no :(

struan



Re: Technical Meeting - 19th April

2001-04-09 Thread Struan Donald

* at 09/04 16:09 +0100 dcross - David Cross said:
 
snip/
 
 p.s Next social meeting is on Thur 3rd May. Suggestions for venues would be
 most welcome.

nowhere we might be tempted to sit by the thames till the wee small
hours generating tremendous hangovers :)

struan



Re: Certing

2001-04-06 Thread Struan Donald

* at 05/04 21:37 + Robin Szemeti said:
 On Thu, 05 Apr 2001, you wrote:
  * Greg McCarroll ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   * Dean ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Will the Perl Cert discussion/brainstorming be taking part at todays meet
or the technical one?
 
   todays
 
  having said that i think it will be pretty damn informal
 
 judging by the way grep appeared late, informed everyone he'd had 'a hell
 of a day' and then went to the bar and bought two 6 pint pitchers of 6X
 I think it fair to say it might well be a little more informal than
 people might possibly have imagined . :))
 
and this i why i would like to nominate that the phrase of the day is
"I blame greg"

struan (who really drank far more than he intended)



Re:

2001-04-06 Thread Struan Donald

* at 06/04 11:34 +0100 Natalie Ford said:
 At 22:42 04/04/01, David Cantrell wrote:
   PC-Pine is suitable only for small children recovering from major surgery.
 
 ...and maybe people who prefer a GUI?  :)

isn't that what he said? :)

struan



Re: Test

2001-04-04 Thread Struan Donald

* at 04/04 15:58 +0100 Robin Houston said:
 On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 03:09:02PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
  [...] the HTML hanger on serves no purpose except to consume
  my disk space at 4 times the rate.
 
 You mean you *archive* this bollocks?

doesn't eveyone archive all their mail? *some* of it *might*
be useful at some point. and it's not like disk space is at a premium
these days

struan



Re: archiving

2001-04-03 Thread Struan Donald

* at 03/04 13:55 +0100 Greg McCarroll said:
 * Robin Houston ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 01:36:54PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   
   Did you all know that i used to blow up pressurised butane
   cannisters as a child?
  
  We *all* used to do *that* :-)
  
 
snip content="tales of madness and danger from the dark mccarroll
past"/
 
 So, should we start baiting Scientologists through the archive? 

aren't they no fun in that all they do is sent a cease and desist
letter rather than get involved in pointless debates? 

plus do we really want people coming round a seizing our computers as
evidence? (well, not unless it's covered by household insurance as
mine's looking a bit elderly these days)

struan



Re: archiving

2001-04-03 Thread Struan Donald

* at 03/04 14:17 +0100 dcross - David Cross said:
 From: Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 03 April 2001 13:56
 
  So, should we start baiting Scientologists through the archive? 
 
 Where do I start?
 
 * L Ron Hubbard is on record as saying the best way to make money is to
 start a religion. A few years later he founded the church of scientology.
 
 * Scientologists believe that humans are descended from clams.
 
 * Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman were both scientologists. There's a rumour
 that their (exactly) ten year marriage was a scientology contract drawn up
 to cover up the fact that they're both gay.
 
 * Scientologists pay huge sums of money to buy "secrets" that are mirrored
 all over the internet. The "church" claims these are copyrighted and will do
 their best to close down any site carrying these.
 
 * The "church" was responsible for the closure of anon.penet.fi and recently
 forced Slashdot to edit some comments.
 
 * Loads more good stuff from Operation Clambake at http://www.xenu.net.
 
 Is that the sort of thing you wanted?

you'll have those illumnati round your house this evening.. or is that
david ike?

struan

and you forgot the machines for exorcising the space aliens from your
head. or something like that.



Re: Crazy Idea

2001-04-03 Thread Struan Donald

* at 03/04 16:47 +0100 Andrew Bowman said:
  From:   Simon Wistow [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  How would people in London.pm like a one night camp out, subject
  to the FM issue going away. The plan would be - we bundle into
  ^^^ 
  Hmmm. Do the words "foot" and "mouth" mean nothing to you?
 
  /me suspects Dave may have been kidnapped and replaced by a dozier, evil
  replacement.
 
 Either that or he misread FM as SM, or, worse, FHM.

well, that unstructured data is difficult tp parse :)

struan



Re: Crazy Idea

2001-04-03 Thread Struan Donald

* at 03/04 17:21 +0100 Matthew Byng-Maddick said:
 On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Struan Donald wrote:
  * at 03/04 16:47 +0100 Andrew Bowman said:
   Either that or he misread FM as SM, or, worse, FHM.
  well, that unstructured data is difficult tp parse :)
 
 Is dave cross written in Perl?

well no[1] but if it's hard to parse in perl...

s

[1] not that i have any evidence one way or the other...



Re: Buffy riding a pony!

2001-04-02 Thread Struan Donald

* at 02/04 16:26 +0100 David Cantrell said:
 I was bored today, so I wrote an ickle module which takes code like
 this:

we're less than half way through damian's year and already this sort
of thing is becoming very common. i'm beginning to think that YAS didn't
think the idea through carefully enough...

or do we suppose this is just an unfortunate side effect of letting
too many london.pm members talk to each other?

struan



Re: Scalar Context vs List Context

2001-03-15 Thread Struan Donald

* at 14/03 10:37 -0500 Dave Cross said:
 ... and how much trouble you can get in for not knowing the difference:
 
 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/03/13/208259

the best thing about this is the number of links to this story that
give the impression the kids were arrested for not knowing the
difference rather than the consequences thereof. i think even
some of the more unforgiving of us would agree that it'd be a bit
harsh if it was the case.

not useing strict on the other hand...

struan



Re: Matt's Scripts

2001-03-14 Thread Struan Donald

* at 14/03 15:22 + Michael Stevens said:
 On Wed, Mar 14, 2001 at 04:10:02PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
  WebDAV is not OK, cos it means installing yet more stuff on the server
  which is simply not needed.  If a user can't use scp, then I don't want
  that user.  I mean, it's not hard FFS.
 
 Admittedly rather unscientific research has shown you're actually wrong -
 lots of users find it very hard.

enough people find moving/copying files on windows complex... when
you start introducing a second computer...

struan



Re: Strange Request

2001-03-13 Thread Struan Donald

* at 13/03 10:43 - Jonathan Peterson said:
 
  There's a marketing battle that needs to be fought first. We
  need, somehow,
  to ensure that newbie CGI programmers read criticisms of
  Matt's scripts
  _before_ they find Matt's Script Archive. And I don't know
  how you're going
  to undo five years of misinformation and achieve that.
 
 Maybe we need to sponsor Matt Wright? The inverse of the Damian sponsorship,
 we would cover whatever revenue he gets from his scripts in return for him
 shutting all the sites down for a year, and redirecting everyone somewhere
 else. What do you reckon? Sponsor Matt to not be involved with Perl for a
 year?

couldn't we just raise enough cash to send him on a decent perl
training course? that way he might re-write his stuff.

although the sheer twistedness of the above does appeal :)

struan



Re: Strange Request

2001-03-13 Thread Struan Donald

* at 13/03 10:56 + Michael Stevens said:
 On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:58:36AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  how to solve this, will there is an easy way that would deal with 
  the problem at source - perl certification 
  
  *duck*
  
  having said in another email how there were no resources to deal with this
  problem, there is a near miss in the perl cookbook, however to tackle
  the problem directly, maybe ORA need to commission a Perl CGI Cookbook.
  
  all the good classic web problems, with simple ready to run examples.
  forums, guestbooks, counters, voting, etc.
 
 Maybe we should join the many people who've had a go at this...
 
 setup a CVS repository on penderel, get on with it.

was that the sound of someone volunteering?

struan



Re: Heretics' meeting

2001-02-28 Thread Struan Donald

* at 28/02 15:09 - Hamlet D'Arcy said:
 Could you post a bit more about the Heretic's meeting?
 Perhaps some links.
 
 I've never heard of the group.

if only we had a faq :)

struan



Re: Heretics' meeting

2001-02-28 Thread Struan Donald

* at 23/02 06:57 -0500 Dave Cross said:
 At Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:40:19 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  
  Q. When are social meetings?
  A. On the day after the first wednesday of the month.
 
 Please stop confusing the newcomers. 
 
 London.pm social meetings are _always_ on the first Thursday of the month. Some sad 
individuals have a problem with that and insist on 
 using other arcane calculations for the meeting date. This only results
 in problems when the _official_ meetings are on the 1st of the month.
 On months like this (and March will be one such month) you may well
 see talk of a 'heretics meeting' on the 8th.
 
 Hope this is clearer now.
 
 Dave...

* at 28/02 15:09 - Hamlet D'Arcy said:
 Could you post a bit more about the Heretic's meeting?
 Perhaps some links.
 
 I've never heard of the group.

to be more helpful see above[1].

struan

[1]: wondering how to make mutt do things in the right order when
replying to multiple posts.



Re: Heretics' meeting

2001-02-28 Thread Struan Donald

* at 28/02 17:37 + Michael Stevens said:
 On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 05:33:34PM +, Matthew Robinson wrote:
  OK, its 'meetings are held on the day after the first wednesday of the month'.
  That makes perfect sense now,
 
 I work on the "meetings are held whenever more than half the people
 on irc mention a pub" theory.

now i don't hang about on irc but if it's like the list then that's a
lot of meetings

struan



Re: geek cricket

2001-02-27 Thread Struan Donald

* at 27/02 12:33 + Roger Burton West said:
 On or about Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 12:29:19PM +, Amias Channer typed:
 
 Each company would have a team (or combine to make teams) and play 40 over
 matches on sunday afternoons in some sort of league .
 Does this appeal to anyone ? gambling is optional .
 
 You mean... actual physical exertion?

maybe he means pub cricket.

struan



Re: Quantum Weirdness

2001-02-27 Thread Struan Donald

* at 27/02 17:48 + Rob Partington said:
 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
 Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  I just bought a Mars bar, and it's
  *drum roll*
  sixty-five grams!
 
 They already did that on IRC!  Keep up, that man!
 
 Tue1129#London.pm/Ranguard Arrg, Damion lied - British Mars bars weigh 
 65 g! not 60.. the Quarks must have put on weight!

maybe they're just less tightly bound.

struan



Re: t-shirts

2001-02-21 Thread Struan Donald

* at 21/02 12:49 + Michael Stevens said:
 On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:43:34PM +, Paul Mison wrote:
  On 21/02/2001 at 12:26 +, Michael Stevens wrote:
  ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
  
  and they were disposable. This sort of meme just does the rounds too
  rapidly. I mean, how much would you laugh at someone wearing a 'I am
  Mahir, Kiss Me Now' or whatever it was tshirt now?
 
 You've got it! We need dissolving t-shirts!

surely just t-shirts with editable text?

struan



Re: Alternative to bad perl resources

2001-02-19 Thread Struan Donald

* at 19/02 13:34 + Steve Mynott said:
 Tony Bowden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Surely part of the reason that so much bad code gains so much popularity
  is that bad coders tend to think their code is good, so don't mind
  publicising it and shouting about it lots. Good coders, on the other hand,
  think that their code is always bad, so are reluctant to do much with it.
  But their "bad" is usually much better than others "good" ...
 
 This is very true.
 
 Also code beauty is in the eye of the beholder and is subjective.  
 
 Also badly written code can be "good" in the sense of being useful.

ah, we have so much of that :( every time it needs hac^H^H^Hextended i
try and clean it up but given i never have the time to start from
sratch it's an uphill struggle. 
 
 We, as programmers, mean internal design when we say "good" whereas
 users refer to software as "good" because it has a simple UI, is
 useful and solves some problems without creating many new ones.
 
 Of course good internal design probably tends to correspond to a
 certain extent to good software, since it should be easier to extend
 when new features are required and should be less buggy.

and also, well thought out software design should reflect in better
useability. if the code is a maze of hacks and kludges then it's all
the harder to hide that behind a clean front end. the fact that UI
design seems to be a much ignored skill doesn't help.

struan



Re: VA?

2001-02-13 Thread Struan Donald

* at 13/02 17:07 + Jonathan Stowe said:
 On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Struan Donald wrote:
 
  *and* they have blue LEDs :)
 
 
 Well that doubles the price for starters :)

ah, but everyone loves blue LEDs
 
struan



Re: TT2 Question

2001-02-08 Thread Struan Donald

* at 08/02 13:00 -0500 Andy Williams said:
 I'm installing TT2.
 The problem. the installation says that I need XML::DOM ver 1.27
 installed
 
 I've hunted high and low but all I can find is version 1.25!
 
 Anyone know where I can get it?

libxml-enno is what you want.

struan



Re: Mailing List Stuff

2001-02-02 Thread Struan Donald

* at 02/02 12:29 + Jonathan Stowe said:
 On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
 
  Any questions?
 
 
 Yeah, can I have a pony ?

what is it with ponys?

struan



Re: Bad programming considered harmless

2001-02-02 Thread Struan Donald

* at 02/02 12:25 - Jonathan Peterson said:
 
   However, I don't question the plumber's competence, or
  indeed pretend to
   anyone including myself that I can do a good job of it.
  The same should
   apply to programming.  If I were to try my hand at
  re-plumbing my kitchen,
   I know I'd make a god-awful mess, and I am intelligent enough to not
   attempt it.  The great unwashed should approach programming
  the same way.
 
snip type="good points" /
 
 Expertism is a dangerous trend. A little knowledge is _not_ a dangerous
 thing. The only dangerous thing is not knowing the _extent_ of your (little)
 knowledge.

and here is the flaw. it's teh knowing the extent of your knowledge
that's the hard part and the bit that the learn perl while you wait
for the kettle to boil type books don't seem (IMO) very good at
instilling. I'm all for trying to get more people to program perl or
any other language but at the same time i'd like it to be done in a
sensible way.

not only as having bad perl floating about there isn't a good thing,
also 'cause if you teach someone bad habits then if they continue they
are going to have to unlearn them all, or things will be harder than
they should be and they're more likely to get disgruntled.

we have enough problems with people looking at perl and thinking "mmm,
that looks hard, i'll learn python" without having them 'learn' perl
then discover half of what they learnt is bad perl. 

you have to teach them some theory of good programming, as at the end
of the day it _will_ make their lives easier.

struan



Re: website directory access

2001-02-01 Thread Struan Donald

* at 01/02 12:35 - Robert Shiels said:
 
 I don't really like this, is there another way? I don't want to have to
 resort to .htpasswd files, which is what I've implemented for now.

er, what's wrong with them? 
 
struan



Re: Amazon Sales Rank

2001-02-01 Thread Struan Donald

* at 01/02 08:35 -0500 Dave Cross said:
 Data Munging with Perl
 by David Cross
 
 Amazon.com Sales Rank: 760
 
 Blimey, how did that happen? Yesterday it was 87,867!

a day in the life of a famous perl author:

goto: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1930110006/

while (1){
look at sales rank

sleep 300

hit refresh
}

struan



Re: Perl Books

2001-01-31 Thread Struan Donald

* at 31/01 14:28 + Dominic Mitchell said:
 On Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 09:24:20AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
  Here's an interesting page[1]
 
 Have a URL for that, guv?

er... this unweldy thing would seem to be it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/4045/107-2581489-8245353

struan



Re: Video Tips

2001-01-29 Thread Struan Donald

* at 29/01 11:29 - Robert Shiels said:
 Staying resolutely on-topic [1], I've started watching my "League of
 Gentlemen" first series DVD.
 
 This is a very good DVD indeed, with an second audio track by the cast
 talking about why they did everything.
 
 The DVD starts with a question "Are you Local ?"
 
 If you click "No" it switches off :)

thereby robert demonstrates joke spoiling techinque 27 :)

struan



Re: Another Template Toolkit Q

2001-01-29 Thread Struan Donald

* at 29/01 15:17 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
 So TT nicely allows a filename, a filehandle or blank for STDOUT. 
 
 So how to I capture the output to "some variable" so I could, say,
 manipulate that output 
 without having to read the file I've outputted? 
 
 Is that possible? 

mmm, this should be a FAQ...

perldoc Template:

   By default, the processed template output is printed to
   STDOUT.  The process() method then returns 1 to indicate
   success.  A third parameter may be passed to the process()
   method to specify a different output location.  This value
   may be one of: a plain string indicating a filename which
   will be opened (relative to OUTPUT_PATH, if defined) and
   the output written to; a file GLOB opened ready for
   output; a reference to a scalar (e.g. a text string) to
   which output/error is appended; a reference to a
   subroutine which is called, passing the output as a
   parameter; or any object reference which implements a
   'print' method (e.g. IO::Handle, Apache::Request, etc.)
   which will be called, passing the generated output as a
   parameter.

If you note, the third paramater can be a ref to a scalar to which the
output is appended.

hth

struan

(sho missed this fisrt time round too :)



Re: Dumb-assed question

2001-01-25 Thread Struan Donald

* at 25/01 10:37 + Michael Stevens said:
 On Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 06:02:25PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dreamweaver (I know, don't ask) nicely escapes the spaces to %20 but when
I try and download these, the %20 appears in the Netscape file save as box
instead of spaces.
 
 Dreamweaver is by far the best GUI html development tool I'm aware of.

the number of times i've sent stuff to people that works fine, had
them run it through dreamweaver and then complain that it's broken
makes me wonder what the bad gui tools are like. 

struan



Re: Dream weaver

2001-01-25 Thread Struan Donald

* at 25/01 15:56 - Robert Shiels said:
 Subject: RE: Dream weaver
 
 Just got sent this:
 
 DREAMWEAVER 3.0- Training Dates Now Available!
 ==
 With Dreamweaver being adopted by up to 90% of development companies
 worldwide, Focus Group are now providing cost effective, scheduled and
 company specific Dreamweaver training, offering Developers the
 opportunity to gain extensive skills in  just 2 days.  

up to 90%?

struan



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Struan Donald

* at 22/01 16:22 + Simon Wistow said:
 Andy Wardley wrote:
 
  So without wishing to start another holy war, is it possible to change
  the mailing list configuration to have a more sensible default Reply-to?
 
 rant
 I have arguments with Leon about this. He usually quotes 'Reply To
 munging considered harmful'
 (http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html) but as I keep trying to
 point out to him this document is bollocks.
 
 The main statemests it makes are ...
 
snip
 
 2) It provides no benefit to the user of a reasonable mailer. 
 What mailer? I use Netscape which amkes it a pain in the arse. But
 Netscape isn't a decent mailer you'll say. Ok. Pine. Pine has, IIRC a
 Reply and a 'Reply To All' capability. I believe Mutt is the same? How
 does non munging help here?  

actually mutt has cool mailing list functions in that you can define a
mailing list  in the config and then l (or L, i forget) replies to the
list rather than the person.

not that i want this to degenerate into a mail client holy war :)

struan



Re: Conslutancy

2001-01-22 Thread Struan Donald

* at 22/01 16:33 + Greg McCarroll said:
 * Struan Donald ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  actually mutt has cool mailing list functions in that you can define a
  mailing list  in the config and then l (or L, i forget) replies to the
  list rather than the person.
  
  not that i want this to degenerate into a mail client holy war :)
  
 
 war implies a large struggle, this would be more like a 5 second
 knockout - everyone knows mutt is the one true mail client

well yes but some people are stubborn, plus there's always the school
of thought that everyting should be done from within emacs...

struan



Re: Holy War

2001-01-19 Thread Struan Donald

* at 19/01 16:12 + Redvers Davies said:
  All I'll say about mandrake is that we have a mandrake box at work and
  when you run printtool the cdrom ejects.
 
 You couldn't do an strace on that so we see what causes that could you?
 I would have thought a hardware conflict would be the most likely cause
 there...

i'm not if the box still exists. i could have a look and see though...

struan



Re: Holy War

2001-01-19 Thread Struan Donald

* at 19/01 16:33 - Robert Shiels said:
  
   What are you planning to do on the box?
 
  It'll be purely for home use, so:
 
  * Hacking perl
  * Prototyping web sites
  * Playing with new toys like AxKit and Camelot
  * Write
  * Surf the web
  * Read mail
  * Play the occasional game
  * Listen to MPs
  * Burn CDs
 
 Apart from the games perhaps, I'm just wondering what a PIV1400Mhz will do
 that a PII350 wouldn't :-) What was your inner justification for getting
 such a monster machine Dave?

that geek tendancy to get a farcially over powered machine 'cause they
can?

struan



Re: Feelers for London Open Source Convention

2001-01-17 Thread Struan Donald

* at 17/01 07:03 -0500 Dave Cross said:
 At Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:00:57 +, James Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 [Vienna]
  
  This means nothing to me, ohhh...
 
 True pop fact: Vienna never made it to number one in the UK. It was help at number 
two for weeks, by Another Record.
 
 Pop quiz: A pint on Thursday night to the first person to tell me what Another 
Record was.

shuttupay face by joe dolce (approximately at any rate :)

struan



Re: the list is dead, long live the list

2001-01-11 Thread Struan Donald

* at 11/01 12:51 + Michael Stevens said:
 On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 12:32:46PM +, Leon Brocard wrote:
  Jo Walsh sent the following bits through the ether:
   lets kill off the old list before the two get too far out of sync
  Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-)
 
 Yeah, we want our own mailing list server.
 
 And a pony.

who needs a pony when we have a camel?

-- 
Struan Donald
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Code Flunky, 365 Plc.
http://www.365corp.com/



Re: Books

2001-01-04 Thread Struan Donald

* at 04/01 13:26 + David Hodgkinson said:
 
 It took me three bookshops on Charing Cross Road to get a perl library
 together for the guys I'm working with, but I managed it without
 having to go into Foyle's. Yeah!

er, what's wrong with foyles if it's not a silly question?

s
-- 
Struan Donald
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Code Flunky, 365 Plc.
http://www.365corp.com/