Re: Consultancy company
Chris Heathcote [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: on 22/1/01 6:34 pm, Piers Cawley wrote: One of the things that I love about the iterative approach of XP is that during the process the client begins to learn exactly what she wants, and is taught to express that by the team. The idea is to create genuine collaboration. and a complete look of horror on the faces of clients when they realise they just don't have a clue :) Heh. But if we're good at our job we can pull them through that. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, you wrote:
Heh. But if we're good at our job we can pull them through that.
uhh .. I have on occasion worked with clients that I reckon are the
exception to that rule ... some of them find lightswitches a technically
challenging problem.
I reckon the XP thing will work for clueful clients (or non clueful
clients who can be lent a clue for a short while) however I reckon you
need another layer of abstraction for totally clueless clients .. there
is a whole class of clients so clueless (' I just want one of those
dot-com things') that you probably need another level of handholding ...
they discuss the artistic and 'feelgood' bits of the project in as
precise terms as they can and then direct the XP team as the customers
representative.
A bit like employing an architect to design your new offices ... you
express your ideas, he produces a cardboard model, you say 'ooh very nice
make it so' and the architect liases with all the contractors .. next
time you see the thing is when they hand over the keys.
I know this goes against the XP idea but I really do think some clients
will not have anywhere near enough clue to work that way .. or even the
time or inclination to do it. I can see a role of 'architect' being
needed on occasion.
--
Robin Szemeti
The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!
Re: Consultancy company
On or about Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:33:44PM +, Robin Szemeti typed:
there
is a whole class of clients so clueless (' I just want one of those
dot-com things') that you probably need another level of handholding ...
they discuss the artistic and 'feelgood' bits of the project in as
precise terms as they can and then direct the XP team as the customers
representative.
http://www.webreview.com/pub/2000/04/07/broken/index.html
Roger
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:49:45PM +, Roger Burton West wrote: http://www.webreview.com/pub/2000/04/07/broken/index.html Eh? I get a four-oh-four. Did you mean http://www.webreview.com/archives/broken/2000/04_07_00.shtml I like this one: http://www.waitingforbob.com/index.php/20001130 oooh! h! -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company
On or about Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 01:09:40PM +, Robin Houston typed: Did you mean http://www.webreview.com/archives/broken/2000/04_07_00.shtml ? Yes. Been a while since I looked at that one. R
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, you wrote:
Heh. But if we're good at our job we can pull them through that.
uhh .. I have on occasion worked with clients that I reckon are the
exception to that rule ... some of them find lightswitches a
technically challenging problem.
I reckon the XP thing will work for clueful clients (or non clueful
clients who can be lent a clue for a short while) however I reckon
you need another layer of abstraction for totally clueless clients
.. there is a whole class of clients so clueless (' I just want one
of those dot-com things') that you probably need another level of
handholding ... they discuss the artistic and 'feelgood' bits of the
project in as precise terms as they can and then direct the XP team
as the customers representative.
A bit like employing an architect to design your new offices ... you
express your ideas, he produces a cardboard model, you say 'ooh very
nice make it so' and the architect liases with all the contractors
.. next time you see the thing is when they hand over the keys.
I know this goes against the XP idea but I really do think some
clients will not have anywhere near enough clue to work that way ..
or even the time or inclination to do it. I can see a role of
'architect' being needed on occasion.
I would say that part of the sales process should include weeding out
those kinds of clients. If it turns out that there aren't any we can
find with a clue, then the fun begins, but I'd like to think that the
market is large.
--
Piers
Re: Consultancy company
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, you wrote: I would say that part of the sales process should include weeding out those kinds of clients. If it turns out that there aren't any we can find with a clue, then the fun begins, but I'd like to think that the market is large. ;))) Dear Sirs, Thank you for your enquiry requesting our services. After our meeting yesterday and some careful consideration by the management team it turns out you are just too damn dumb. We have worked with chewing gum brighter than you. Please go away. Yours etc, Shall I knock it out as a template .. it could come in handy :)) -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Consultancy company
On or about Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 11:08:29PM +, Piers Cawley typed: And if the Big Cheese does hand down decisions that override the Minion then the contract between developer and client should stipulate that the client pays for the wasted time. Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness in customer relations than I've ever seen - and if that firmness were present, we wouldn't need XP anyway... Roger
Re: Consultancy company
Roger claimed that:
This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness
in customer relations than I've ever seen - and if that firmness were
present, we wouldn't need XP anyway...
One of the main problems with full disclosure with the client is that it
can only ever work when you've only got one client. In my job you tend to
be working on more than one project at any given time; I certainly don't
think I'd like to be the one to tell the client 'sorry this is late, but
there was this unexpected problem with some work we were doing for another
client and it took up all our time'.
Later.
Mark.
--
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
Name = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer' ,
Firm = 'Profero Ltd',Web = 'http://www.profero.com/' ,
Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]', Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960' )
Re: Consultancy company
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote: On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote: Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific you attempt to be. All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that specific job. A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the project timeline. This will need to be read and physically signed off by the client before any work is undertaken. This, in theory, should make the client think whether they really need this "small change" or if it can wait until a later date. It also gives you some ammo if the client changes their mind as there should be no ambiguity. -- James
Re: Consultancy company
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Leon Brocard wrote:
Dave Mee sent the following bits through the ether:
One of the best solutions I've come accross to this problem is to take an
iterative approach to development.
Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day /
week you have changed something and can show it to the client
again. This way the client really understands what he really wants.
This even works well if you are working on projects for yourself. It's a
very good way of maintaining focus and not going off on tangents when
you're programming.
Later.
Mark.
--
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
Name = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer' ,
Firm = 'Profero Ltd',Web = 'http://www.profero.com/' ,
Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]', Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960' )
Re: Consultancy company
At Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:42:46 +, Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Mee sent the following bits through the ether: One of the best solutions I've come accross to this problem is to take an iterative approach to development. Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day / week you have changed something and can show it to the client again. This way the client really understands what he really wants. And if you don't want to buy the XP books, but want to know more... http://www.extremeprogramming.org/ Dave...
Re: Consultancy company
Andy Wardley wrote: Having said that, I do very little "real" work at work, instead spending my time reading/writing email, chatting to people, playing table tennis, having meetings, and doing other brain dead tasks. I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my time. I mean I *know* I can pull out the stops and work my arse off for extended periods of time but I can't seem to get myself to get into work at 9:30am work till lunch, 45 mins having a sandwich then work till 5:30-6:00pm and still be productive. In fact now I don't think I could do it at all. But I get my work done and people seem to be happy with the quality and how fats it gets delivered so ... shrugs
Re: Consultancy company
On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:26:18AM +, James O'Sullivan wrote: On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote: On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote: Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific you attempt to be. All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that specific job. A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the project timeline. This will need to be read and physically signed off by the client before any work is undertaken. a) you need to be able to persuade management this is a good idea b) you need to get someone writing specs who is actually able to be specific. And you need to have some way of dealing with a client who will refuse to pay until you implement something that they say is contained within the spec, and you don't. Despite the fact you're both reading the same spec. From memories of my last job, both of these can be a problem. Michael
Re: Consultancy company
Mark Fowler sent the following bits through the ether: Two points: Picky, picky. Fine. I'd say that of the bits I've tested, I've found that continuous testing is a very important part. Writing the tests before the code is cool too. But you know this already ;-) Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/ ... For Sale: Slightly used message. Enquire within
Re: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?
So who's bankrolling the van and who wants to be BA? Neil. (whose tounge is ever so slightly on his cheek!) -- Sorry, but I can't resist pointing out that this amusing misspelling. I guess I'd pronounce this a bit like lounge. Tongue is a pretty stupid way to spell it anyway, tung would be better. Now back to your regular (extreme) programming. /Robert
Re: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?
Neil Ford wrote: The "A-Team" - scenario is one in which a team goes in to rescue a failing project, or go in and retune/redesign an existing project that works but has become a victim of its own success. Think of this work as bespoke enhancements. That just has me conjering up images of turning up at a client site in a big black van (screeching tyres obligatory) and either leaping out laptops in hand or just unrollong some CAT5 and plugging into their network :-) So who's bankrolling the van and who wants to be BA? lol - monday's been c*** so far (Linx rooter down apparently - sounds like something off an excuse sheet). Men in black theme - we must all have black suits - dark glasses avliable from Macy D's soon, and we can get a clapped out van from BT for next to nothing Greg Neil. (whose tounge is ever so slightly on his cheek!) -- Neil C. Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.binky.ourshack.org
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, you wrote: Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day / week you have changed something and can show it to the client again. This way the client really understands what he really wants. wow ... "a client that understands what they want" ... Mr Brocard, for gods sake WALK to the meeting, DO NOT drive. I have no idea what you're taking but I want some .. do you get to see little blue spacemen too ;)) Further to this most clients aren't even interested in understanding what they want (that's _your_ job). They just _want_ it. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] imagination is more important than knowledge. -- albert einstein
Re: Consultancy company
Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my time. There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of results come from 20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter). No need to feel guilty since this is the way things are. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -- philip k. dick
Re: Consultancy company
Mark Fowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 2. I first heard about building at the end of the day in Brooke's Mythical Man Month. Continuous integration and smoke testing. Oh yes. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The overiding thing should be 'make this the very best company to work for AND the very best company to have work done by' A1 bleeding edge code written by the planets happiest programmers ... sounds like a good recipe to me. Not sure about the bleeding edge part, but certainly "using the highest productivity techniques known to man" would certainly rank high up there. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: and this template toolit thing rocks dunnit .. (now I have the hang of it .. sorta) It is the rockingest thing I've rocked to since the last one. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Men in black theme - we must all have black suits - dark glasses avliable from Macy D's soon, and we can get a clapped out van from BT for next to nothing Don't forget the welding gear. Actually, I'm more for the Ghostbusters theme: boiler suits, handhled nuclear weapons, a disused fire station and an ambulance. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company
Simon Wistow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I sometimes feel guilty because 90% of my work gets done in 10% of my time. There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of results come from 20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter). Often, when I do something that I consider really easy and spend little effort on it, I get lots of really good feedback. Alternatively if I spend weeks on a trickey problem, no one says anything. This seems like a similar rule. C'est la vie. /Robert
RE: Consultancy company
There is in fact Pareto's Law which says that 80% of results come from 20% of work (or 10-90 or whatever the numbers don't really matter). Often, when I do something that I consider really easy and spend little effort on it, I get lots of really good feedback. Glad I'm not the only one. I spend three days futzing around unable to get stuck into a problem, and then eventually manage a decent half days work to get it done before the deadline. Then, while I'm worrying about having wasted 2 1/2 days someone comes and says what a good document it was. I don't get it. I wouldn't mind if it weren't for the way other people in the office seem to beaver away steadily.
Re: Consultancy company
"James O'Sullivan" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote: On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote: Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific you attempt to be. All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that specific job. A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the project timeline. This will need to be read and physically signed off by the client before any work is undertaken. This, in theory, should make the client think whether they really need this "small change" or if it can wait until a later date. It also gives you some ammo if the client changes their mind as there should be no ambiguity. The XP approach to this goes something like: Client: We want this. Team: Write it on a card. Client: Writes There you go. Team: This will take 'm' days to implement. We have n m days available in this iteration, do you want this in this iteration. or Team: This will take m days to implement. We have n m days in this iteration. If this goes in, which ones to we take out? And the client makes the decision. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company
Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 10:26:18AM +, James O'Sullivan wrote: On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote: On Mon, Jan 22, 2001 at 08:47:35AM +, Roger Burton West wrote: Contracts _should_ say that the client pays for changes to what he originally said he wanted. Sometimes they do. It's quite rare, in my experience, for this payment actually to be demanded. (Usually some excuse along the lines of "it's a big customer and we don't want to annoy them".) This XP approach seems to require a lot more firmness I've also found a lot of customers are absolute *geniuses* at fudging the issue of what they did and didn't agree to, no matter how specific you attempt to be. All changes no matter how small should be passed through a change control process, normally put in place by the project manager assigned to that specific job. A change control document will normally be produced which will detail what the client wants, how much it will cost and what the effects are on the project timeline. This will need to be read and physically signed off by the client before any work is undertaken. a) you need to be able to persuade management this is a good idea b) you need to get someone writing specs who is actually able to be specific. And you need to have some way of dealing with a client who will refuse to pay until you implement something that they say is contained within the spec, and you don't. Despite the fact you're both reading the same spec. Keep the specs/stories simple. If the team is unsure of what a story means then they need to go back to the client for clarification, and possibly to have the requirement broken down into simpler bits. As time passes in the project, the client will get better at writing requirements. And we'll get better at estimating how long they'll take to implement. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, you wrote: Inded. Look at XP. The whole idea is that at the end of every day / week you have changed something and can show it to the client again. This way the client really understands what he really wants. wow ... "a client that understands what they want" ... Mr Brocard, for gods sake WALK to the meeting, DO NOT drive. I have no idea what you're taking but I want some .. do you get to see little blue spacemen too ;)) nah seriously.. if XP can really achieve this then great .. I hope it can .. infact I almost believe it can ... a little voice in my head keeps saying 'please let this be true' .. but sometimes when people come up with such abstract ideas as 'a client that understands what they want' I do begin to wonder if its not pushing it a bit far ;)) One of the things that I love about the iterative approach of XP is that during the process the client begins to learn exactly what she wants, and is taught to express that by the team. The idea is to create genuine collaboration. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company- Where do you want to go?
What sort of work do you want to do? What sort of business do you seek? Body shop, A-Team or bespoke software house? This message generated a few threads: Working from home v office; pair programming vs traditional project "individual portions"; and handling client contact or involvement. These issues are all related to winning a project from a client and going away to develop it (bespoke software?). At least one earlier message concerned body-shopping i.e. putting a bunch of developers into a site e.g. an investment bank and hiring them out on time and materials basis. This replaces the agents with your own salesman, then gets the team members into sites as contractors (there are many small to medium sized consultancies in this market sector). A lot of the messages seem to be based on the developers dream of working with a bunch of drinking buddies (generally a good thing) and seem to assume a software house type of business. This model is for fixed price work with whole projects paid on delivery of the project or stages thereof and variation orders. The "A-Team" - scenario is one in which a team goes in to rescue a failing project, or go in and retune/redesign an existing project that works but has become a victim of its own success. Think of this work as bespoke enhancements. Unless someone brings some business to the venture (e.g. a client with a requirement or an idea for a new software invention with sufficient funding), the venture will need someone to bring in the business. If the venture has a mix of bespoke software and body-shopping then the premises will not need a desk for every member to be in the office concurrently (at any time. some will be out at client site). Usually within a fixed length contract there may be times when a contractor needs to get some more work from the client. At such times the worker attends project meetings and planning sessions which are part of the job and are paid. A consultancy must attend meetings and discuss project requirements in order to win business. Fees will need to cover the consultancy for periods off charge, so basing project costs on say charging sixty pounds per developer hour will not cover all the costs. So, at the meeting, I suggest a few questions for the agenda: What sort of business do you expect to win? What funding have you (living of savings until you get money in)? How do you want to spend your savings (office space, salesman, equipment)? Mark
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, you wrote: I don't see why you can't have a mix - it would be good to have a core group of people who always (nearl) work in the office so that if you usually work from home but need some face 2 face there will be people there (or in a pub nearby). things like IRC and email provide good communication about what is going on and can be used to acounce when and where people are. thats true enough .. although it doesn't fit in with the XP model that well .. but there is always MOTWTDI .. the basic problem is that 'office' workers see 'home' workers as a bunch of idle slackers who only pretend to work from home and really spend the day gardening, and 'home' workers see 'office' workers as bunch of people who;d rather spend the day arseing about and chatting than actually doing something .. I rush to point out that those stereotypes were *not* what I was on about in my "I'm really unsure about telecommuting" thing. I'm one of the gregarious types. -- Piers
Re: Extreme Programming (was: Re: Consultancy company)
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:24:24AM +, Piers Cawley wrote: Now, I freely admit that I have partaken of the Extreme Programming Kool-Aid, and dammit I want to do it. I want to try it too. I'm not convinced by all of it - pair programming for example - but so much of the other stuff seems damned sensible that I want to give it a go. Including pair programming. I'm trying to keep an open mind on that fucking stupid idea. When they got the permie in who's taking over the project I'd been working on, we spent a fair amount of time doing the PP thing. And it was great. A *fantastic* way of getting information shared and passed on for what was basically a decently engineered but atrociously documented project. By the time I left, James knew his way around the system and was confident he could extend it as required. And I was confident he was right about that. (Did my ego good to know I'd written something without sanity checking that was relatively easy for someone to pick up quickly too...) -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, you wrote: One customer. On site. Full time. Absolute honesty. Get them on your side. The are the people who are *paying* for this, they deserve nothing but your honesty. Tell 'em about any problems and tell 'em early. Tell 'em about successes and tell 'em early. Get the customer rep onside and you have an advocated. Treat the customers like a mushrooms and you don't get repeat business. sounds great ... when do we start. Seriously XP sounds like it should work .. I read the books I was convinced. The only thing that occasioanlly worries me about it is that my current client is still working his way up to being a mushroom. Apart from that the client has a total staff of 5. I cant see them sparing 20% of their workforce in order to sit and keep the developers comapny. Worse still I have not yet had a decision on anything in less than 24hrs. I think that would haold true even if they were on site too. So I am really keen to do an XP managed project ... if it really does work then that sfantastic, best result I could ever have. I suspect that it fails, just in different ways to other project managment systems. obvious ones: The client doesn;t send Big Chief to sit with the designers, instead 'designers' is kind of the wrong term with XP. they send Useless Minion. UM is positive and helpful and gives quick decisions ona whole variety of topics. And a week later turns up with changes handed down by Big Chief overiding those decisions. worse still the decisions handed down make no sense because he hasn;t been with the team and doesn;t undrstand whats going on. This one is, potentially a problem. I'd say that, as a company consulting with the company you make *bloody* sure that the client is aware of the importance of the 'on site' customer, and of their status as final arbiter. It's also stressed that the OSC can say "I'll get back to you on that", but a lot of the time questions that need to be answered are uncontroversial and can be answered trivially even by a UM. And because the XP approach advocates code that passes its tests at all times, the political value of something that is actually doing stuff can be useful too. And if the Big Cheese does hand down decisions that override the Minion then the contract between developer and client should stipulate that the client pays for the wasted time. And if this does happen then we should learn from this how to improve our 'client interview' process. Which kind of implies that our sales teams should work pairwise as well so that there's experienced developers in on the interview too. Client has no concept about what software development is like and within a week or two cancels the entire thing 'some of those guys spent a whole week working and half the time couldnt even get it to run, by the end of the week all they'd done was write some strange "library" code and even that doesn;t seem to do anything' Remember that, with the XP approach, library code doesn't get written so much as it kind of happens. If you don't need it *now* you don't write it. Add functionality as you require it. but hey .. next person organising a XP based project that needs a junior perl hacker .. gimme a shout ..
Re: Extreme Programming (was: Re: Consultancy company)
"Dean S Wilson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: -Original Message- From: Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED] I did a little pair programming at emap - I probably wasn't doing it right tho'. even so we did get thru the hard bits quicker and could split up to do the easy stuff. I think it made a difference but then I was mostly being a backseat coder so either we did okay or stuart was very tolerant indeed. How did you establish who would make good pairings? Was it done by trying to place two equals or was it done more on a mentoring level of a very experienced coder and a less experienced one? (I've not read that much on XP) The Dictum in the XP literature appears to be 'nobody is allowed to say "No"', pairs form and re form on task by task basis. 'Regular' pairs are to be discouraged. XP Installed has a bunch of stuff on this. Has anyone who's used XP had a client that was willing to make an employee available pretty much full time or was it more they come in for a chunk of the afternoon three times a week? I have an issue with the fact that clients will be willing to pay a member of staff to spend all day in the consultants office in case they need to be asked questions. The XP argument goes something like: This team costs you X000/day. Your liason costs you X00/day. We believe that having someone available to us, on site, full time (but able to do however much of their work that can be done remotely), will dramatically reduce the amount of our time it takes to deliver a product, and will also increase the final value of that product. Do the maths. (Well, maybe not quite so bluntly, but you take my point) I'm not saying its a bad thing to have someone on hand, I can see its uses but from the clients point of view why not just have contact by phone/email. That was the liaison has access to everyone in his base office so he can resolve issues faster with more authority than if he were in your offices. Also you have a paper trail of requests, questions and responses. There's a whole chapter on this in XP Installed. Paraphrasing, "Customer onsite == answer in 30 seconds. Customer offsite == answer today." They also point out that you can make either version work, but the onsite customer option works best. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company
On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote: I rush to point out that those stereotypes were *not* what I was on about in my "I'm really unsure about telecommuting" thing. I'm one of the gregarious types. acknowledged ... those 'stereotypes' where pretty extreme and I am sure there are other issues on both sides my basic thrust was however: don't discount any possibilities ... lets open doors not close them before we even get there. Personally I am quite happy to do the office based thing, I don;t have a problem with it. I also enjoy doing the home thing. Different working methods suit different people and different projects. Surely the best outcome is success, success = happiness and happiness = enjoying what you are doing. One of the best things about having your own consultancy is surely that there is no PHB laying down cast iron rules, sure what we do has to make VERY good business sense and be based on sound policies that we can all agree to but lets try and keep things 'open'. flexi-time, pinball machines, games room .. whatever .. if its reasonable then do it. The overiding thing should be 'make this the very best company to work for AND the very best company to have work done by' A1 bleeding edge code written by the planets happiest programmers ... sounds like a good recipe to me. -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Consultancy company
On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, you wrote: The client doesn;t send Big Chief to sit with the designers, instead 'designers' is kind of the wrong term with XP. agreed they send Useless Minion. UM is positive and helpful and gives quick decisions ona whole variety of topics. And a week later turns up with changes handed down by Big Chief overiding those decisions. worse still the decisions handed down make no sense because he hasn;t been with the team and doesn;t undrstand whats going on. This one is, potentially a problem. I'd say that, as a company consulting with the company you make *bloody* sure that the client is aware of the importance of the 'on site' customer, and of their status as final arbiter. It's also stressed that the OSC can say "I'll get back to you on that", but a lot of the time questions that need to be answered are uncontroversial and can be answered trivially even by a UM. in my experience getting simlpe concepts across to large and important clients can sometimes be difficult when a) the subject has a funny word in it like 'computer' and b) they don't know what that word means. I just can;t help wondering if it will work .. if it does then I will be no 1 happy bunny. I have XP installed sitting right here and tagged up for a re-read this week (i'm having a month or so off to recover from a 12 month period of development with little breaks) ... and this template toolit thing rocks dunnit .. (now I have the hang of it .. sorta) -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Consultancy company
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [snip] And table football's no fun if you're playing with yourself. Maybe if you kept your hands on the table football...? gdr -- rob partington % [EMAIL PROTECTED] % http://lynx.browser.org/
Re: Consultancy company
Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:24:24AM +, Piers Cawley wrote: The vision I have is of a team (or teams) working in *our* premises, with customers working with us. (side-rant) The customers _must_ be kept isolated from the developers. This is the single most important thing the customer-interface people (whatever you call them) can do. Inviting the customers into your office will drop productivity by 30-50% because your developers can't talk honestly about what's going on. That's exactly wrong. And the XP book explains why far better than I ever could. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
IIRC, Sim City is one of Ken Livingstone's favorites. There can't be the option to revoke all bird feed sellers permits.
Re: Consultancy company
On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 10:28:13AM +, Piers Cawley wrote: One customer. On site. Full time. Absolute honesty. Nice idea if you have customers who can take the truth, and who know when to shut up and let people get on with things. I'd like to see it working, but I haven't yet. R
Extreme Programming (was: Re: Consultancy company)
On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 12:24:24AM +, Piers Cawley wrote: Now, I freely admit that I have partaken of the Extreme Programming Kool-Aid, and dammit I want to do it. I want to try it too. I'm not convinced by all of it - pair programming for example - but so much of the other stuff seems damned sensible that I want to give it a go. Including pair programming. I'm trying to keep an open mind on that fucking stupid idea. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Consultancy company
On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, you wrote: I don't see why you can't have a mix - it would be good to have a core group of people who always (nearl) work in the office so that if you usually work from home but need some face 2 face there will be people there (or in a pub nearby). things like IRC and email provide good communication about what is going on and can be used to acounce when and where people are. thats true enough .. although it doesn't fit in with the XP model that well .. but there is always MOTWTDI .. the basic problem is that 'office' workers see 'home' workers as a bunch of idle slackers who only pretend to work from home and really spend the day gardening, and 'home' workers see 'office' workers as bunch of people who;d rather spend the day arseing about and chatting than actually doing something .. Break down those totally incorrect stereotypes and you're on the way to a flexible poicy that allows you to retain the very best staff in conditions they enjoy. Shurely one of the driving decisions behind setting up a mutual business is not just financial success but also good working conditions and more freedom. I gladly trade lower income for better working conditions any day (to a point anyway). My basic break even is at about 30K a year .. once I get to that poijt I start taking holidays. Money is great, but chilling out by the pool is better and skiing is better still [speaking of which its Chamonix again in 2 weeks] just my $1 / (2500^0.5) -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Consultancy company
Piers Cawley wrote: Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Cantrell wrote: That should read there's too many distractions at home for me (or you as the case may be). I am about 150% more productive at home - 25 % because I save the journey, and the other 25% due to not having to go to meetings / going for long lunches / the chat that turns into a tangenical discussion on XZY / some Luser or PBH asking a stupid question that they could have worked out themselves if I was not there / insert any other activity that takes me away from the task in hand. The vision I have is of a team (or teams) working in *our* premises, with customers working with us. We avoid pointless meetings. The customer is there because they know what we're supposed to be doing for them, and they know what's important. When you're only working a 35 hour week (40 tops...) then you should have enough free time outside work that there's less inclination to piss off for a long lunch. And the whole point about setting this up is to get rid of the PHB. Sorry the above turned into a rant, I just get a bit pissed off with closed minds that assume that having people in an office = productivity. *Ahem*. Were I to be the sort of person who takes things personally, I'd take that personally. Or something. Seriously, I tried working from home when the trains were up the spout, and for a couple or three days it was great. However, one or two points. 1. As a sole developer, working from home is/can be good, especially when your head is down and you're turning out the code for a particular bit. But working from home means you're away from the customer, and the customer is the only person who can make business decisions about what your code is supposed to be doing. I've never said that I do not meet customers on a face to face basis arround once a week. Working as I do means that the customer and I focus on the specs, and iterative developement - as they need to be clear that I know what I am supposed to do. 2. You are away from the team. Again, sole developer, this is not a problem. Consultancy where we're supposed to be doing the synergy thing, not quite so good. Time you spend away is time in which you aren't plugged into what's happening and (and this is *really* important), time spent away is time in which you aren't doing the mentor thing. I strongly believe that, in a joint consultancy deal, it is *really* important that gurus help to enlighten students, otherwise how do we get our partners up to speed so we can go out and get more fun work and make more fun money? Agreed that if you need to teach - guru and student need to be in the same place. 3. Every time I need to ask you something and you're not there and I have to phone you, there's a chance I'll think 'ah fuck it' and not bother. And there's a chance that that will be a *really* bad idea. But if you are confortable phoneing (|emailing|irc) me then you would - as that is how we would need to comunicate. I've wasted so much time being in an office being asked and asking lame questions just because I am next to someone. I have much less distractions at home. I'm not saying that offices (especially client offices) don't suck. But they don't have to. If we're going to do this, lets do it right. Now, I freely admit that I have partaken of the Extreme Programming Kool-Aid, and dammit I want to do it. But dammit again, it makes *sense*. Also bear in mind that when I made the decision (having tried it) that I'd rather commute in and be near the customer rather than work from home (in my *very* comfortable home office...) that meant adding another 4 hours (count 'em) of travelling time to my day. If I work from home I work too long. If work too long my code starts to suck. If my code starts to suck I get embarrassed and my reputation starts to slip. I want to work with copilots. I want to be able to *have* that tangential conversation that'll turn out to be useful in six months time. And table football's no fun if you're playing with yourself. Yes there are advantages to working in an office - i.e the team can be greater than the sum of its parts. This is *so* important. But working from elsewhere also allows idividuals to be productive - often alot more. How are you measuring productivity? An assumption on real hours worked - i.e when I was in London I was ever working more than about 6 hours a day (on a long day) due to lost time ... At home I regualarly hit 6 hours on a day that is 4 hours shorter. I have not measured this as their is no use benchmark qw(:gregs_time); Why not combine the two - i.e have a day a week where everyone meets to brainstorm / ask questions / do what needs to be done to take advantage of a group. Because groups don't work like that. All of a sudden I'm taking notes. And trying to
Re: Consultancy company
Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Client has no concept about what software development is like and within a week or two cancels the entire thing 'some of those guys spent a whole week working and half the time couldnt even get it to run, by the end of the week all they'd done was write some strange "library" code and even that doesn;t seem to do anything' Doesn't happen with XP. "Least necessary". You have the scheme of the library in your head, agreed by the team, but you're coding visibly from the outset. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Extreme Programming (was: Re: Consultancy company)
"Dean S Wilson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: -Original Message- From: Aaron Trevena [EMAIL PROTECTED] I did a little pair programming at emap - I probably wasn't doing it right tho'. even so we did get thru the hard bits quicker and could split up to do the easy stuff. I think it made a difference but then I was mostly being a backseat coder so either we did okay or stuart was very tolerant indeed. How did you establish who would make good pairings? Was it done by trying to place two equals or was it done more on a mentoring level of a very experienced coder and a less experienced one? (I've not read that much on XP) The latter. You mix skills. And the second isn't idle. He's coding up the test cases. Is the Monday night meeting still on for those of us who can't make the lunch time one? Oh, yes. Leon, are you acting as scribe? -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Extreme Programming (was: Re: Consultancy company)
Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether: Leon, are you acting as scribe? Yes. Don't expect a masterpiece though. Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/ ... All new improved Brocard, now with Template Toolkit!
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Thats were a few people have gone wrong lately then ;-) yup -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dave Hodgkinson wrote: "Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables, vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-) Are they not in New York ? No. San Antonio if traceroutes are to be believed. Dellhost are in texas - which I destest due to its attitude to capital P. You not been following the Confederacy conspiracy? What like americans ? (present american company excluded) No, cable installation "engineers". All cable company phone support/accounts. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others, just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in others, just like anywhere else). But it strikes me as being absurd that I hear EVERY YEAR of the power going out for large areas of major cities in .us, something which just doesn't happen in Europe. It should be mandatory for all public servants to be adept at Sim City. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. just charge em bigtime! nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight, so if they change their mind the deadline changes What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding a new job? Michael
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote: What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling it as you did writing it in the first place. And in any case, if you *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project management. Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the group too. No need for a whole project mangler though to start with. As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start. That way they become a motivational tool. Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s. I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag for the office. Or some clean jerrycans :-) Big monitors on workstations are *not* rewards. They are essential tools for the job. Anything smaller than 19" is rapidly approaching too cramped for serious work. TFT monitors on workstations are rewards... * - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client, get a PS 2. When we hit milestones *on time* in the next project, get another game for it. Modulo the PS2 not necessarily being a motivator, that sounds like a plan. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IMHO developers should be given the environment that is what makes them confotable, an IBM research center was on the telly the other day that had a big open plan style area, as well as individaul offices, as well as Lego. The environment was totally focused to nuturing developers so that they create (hopefully good, bug-free(TM) code). Sounds like extreme programming to me... I *so* want to try this. I'm getting fed up of being sole programmer on projects. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote: On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. just charge em bigtime! nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight, so if they change their mind the deadline changes What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding a new job? Although, thinking about it, I can also note that the "find a new job" approach seems to work... Michael
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat wormdiscovered
On 19 Jan 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others, just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in others, just like anywhere else). But it strikes me as being absurd that I hear EVERY YEAR of the power going out for large areas of major cities in .us, something which just doesn't happen in Europe. It should be mandatory for all public servants to be adept at Sim City. Thats where I went wrong when I was working in the public sector - I used to play Duke Nukem all the time :) /J\ -- Jonathan Stowe | http://www.gellyfish.com | I'm with Grep on this one http://www.tackleway.co.uk |
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote: On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. just charge em bigtime! nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight, so if they change their mind the deadline changes What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding a new job? Although, thinking about it, I can also note that the "find a new job" approach seems to work... write a suggestions document of where the project management and management functions are going wrong if they ignore it leave -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
RE: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
From: Greg McCarroll [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] write a suggestions document of where the project management and management functions are going wrong if they ignore it leave Do you know anywhere this has happened Greg? ;-)
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hatworm discovered
Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Big monitors on workstations are *not* rewards. They are essential tools for the job. Anything smaller than 19" is rapidly approaching too cramped for serious work. TFT monitors on workstations are rewards... 19" on the first port of the G400, a TFT on the second? Mmmm... so, when are we going to have a meeting about all this? Well seeing as I will be amongst the great unwashed from next week, anytime soon would be good. Neil. -- Neil C. Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.binky.ourshack.org
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether: Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime... OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely interested in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. People with business sense needed too, though: offices, computers and bandwidth don't come cheap. Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/ ... All new improved Brocard, now with Template Toolkit!
Re: Consultancy company
Andy Wardley wrote: On Jan 18, 4:28pm, Leo Lapworth wrote: Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one. It sounds like an excellent idea. In fact, I've even got as far as writing a (fledgling) business plan for such a venture based around Template Toolkit-ish web development, support and consultancy. It's something that Simon Matthews and I have been talking about for a couple of years, but never really quite got around to taking the plunge. I was about to jump but work related improvments of the last few weeks have pushed it back onto the back burner. Now, what would it take to convince you that there are nicer places to work than central London? Guildford, for example, is quite wonderful and only a train ride away from the smoke... :-)= Agreed - why work in London - what about telecommuters ? i.e I want to stay communtin to my desk - all 3 meters of it (the commute - I live in a small flat) On the matter of funding, I have a friend who works for Goldman Sachs who offered to put me in touch with VC somewhere in the range of 2 - 10m. No favours, no guarantees, but at least a foot in the door and the offer of waving a business plan under the noses of the right kind of people. Of course, you might argue that GS != Right Kind of People :-) But like others, I'm not convinced that VC is the way to go unless you really have to. Having said that, if you want to start big and grow big quickly, I can't see a way to do that without significant moolah up front. Maybe that means "really have to"? Why need a VC's money for a consultancy - shurely most people involved will have all the required kit (PC's / laptops) and all that may be required is a small office. A Consultantcy can raise cash quick via charging monthly like anyone else - ok not everyone pays on time, but if a few do then thats cash in the bank (especially as you pay everyone else at the end of the month.) One consideration worth playing on is that good Perl people are hard to come by. As a scarce resource, we might be able to convince backers that a solid collection of guru and demi-guru level Perl people represents a mighty design/development/consultancy force which could quickly corner a large chunk of the market. I'd love to come to the meeting and hear the ideas, but I've done my trip to London for this month :-) I've been 5 times this week - that's nearly my years quota ! Greg A Pipe dreamer. -- Andy Wardley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Signature regenerating. Please remain seated. [EMAIL PROTECTED] For a good time: http://www.kfs.org/~abw/
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At 14:55 19/01/01, Neil Ford wrote: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mmmm... so, when are we going to have a meeting about all this? Well seeing as I will be amongst the great unwashed from next week, anytime soon would be good. AOLMe too!/AOL
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At 15:49 19/01/01, Dave Cross wrote: I'd love to come along, but probably wouldn't have time to get there and back during lunch. Can we do it one evening? An evening would be better for me, too... Natalie
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether: Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime... OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely interested in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. People with business sense needed too, though: offices, computers and bandwidth don't come cheap. Put me down for that. Might bring Gill as well. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat wormdiscovered
On 19 Jan 2001, Piers Cawley wrote: Put me down for that. Might bring Gill as well. It seems like every tom dick and harry's other half is called Gill around here :) /J\ -- Jonathan Stowe | http://www.gellyfish.com | I'm with Grep on this one http://www.tackleway.co.uk |
Re: Consultancy company
Piers Cawley wrote: Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Andy Wardley wrote: On Jan 18, 4:28pm, Leo Lapworth wrote: Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one. It sounds like an excellent idea. In fact, I've even got as far as writing a (fledgling) business plan for such a venture based around Template Toolkit-ish web development, support and consultancy. It's something that Simon Matthews and I have been talking about for a couple of years, but never really quite got around to taking the plunge. I was about to jump but work related improvments of the last few weeks have pushed it back onto the back burner. Now, what would it take to convince you that there are nicer places to work than central London? Guildford, for example, is quite wonderful and only a train ride away from the smoke... :-)= Agreed - why work in London - what about telecommuters ? i.e I want to stay communtin to my desk - all 3 meters of it (the commute - I live in a small flat) I'm *really* unsure about telecommuting. Seems to me that the way to really build a team (especially when doing serious development) is to have people in the same room; that way you get people who know the answers immediately on tap and able to overhear other discussions and contribute as appropriate. Whilst I love the journey to work in the home office I don't like the rest of the office conditions. Having people there is important. I can understand the idea of building a team, but I think I am more productive here, than in an office where I am nearly constantly interupted. Also not being able to ask a question of the person next door, means I go look for the answer - and the person next door can get on with it. MySQL AB is a example of a company that is developeing a "product" in a virtual sense - why not try and develope a virtual company ? And I like central London because (whatever else is wrong with it) it's relatively easy for everyone to get to by train no matter where they live. Trekking out to (for example) Guildford wouldn't be good for me. But is treking into insert that good to working from home ? ADSL is cheap and working from home can be supprisingly productive. Greg who has so little work may have to commute to London every day ;-( -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company
On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, you wrote: I can do 200% as much work at home because I can work when and as I feel able to and so work when I am my most productive. well having spent the last year telecommuting I can affirm that it does let you sometimes work at phenomeonal rates But I also can see the other side .. contact and 'just being able to ask' is important too .. the telephone still works, and when I worked in a building full of people I;d just as lilely phone em up or email em as walk round to their office to see them. I'd say on balance that both have merit. at white heat development pace its better to be all in one room .. when its thrashed out and just needs plain doing, then wandering off home and doing it when it feels best is just as powerful. I'd see an ideal solution as being flexible and not pre constraining yourselves to a fixed pattern. If you prefer one type of working much over another then do it that way .. both have merit. and I'm still dead keen to be involved in an XP project :)) whatever .. if you lot are going to be in Chinatown on Monday thats as good a reason as any I can see for making a trip to the smoke ... see ya there. -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Consultancy company
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 05:04:54PM +, Piers Cawley wrote: I'm *really* unsure about telecommuting. Seems to me that the way to really build a team (especially when doing serious development) is to have people in the same room; Plus there's too many distractions at home. Even if you live on your own. It's great to have the capability - for those evening brainwaves, or if you're ill - but doing it every day just doesn't work, at least for me. And I like central London because (whatever else is wrong with it) it's relatively easy for everyone to get to by train no matter where they live. Trekking out to (for example) Guildford wouldn't be good for me. Yeah. What he said. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Consultancy company
Piers Cawley wrote: Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Piers Cawley wrote: Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Andy Wardley wrote: On Jan 18, 4:28pm, Leo Lapworth wrote: Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one. It sounds like an excellent idea. In fact, I've even got as far as writing a (fledgling) business plan for such a venture based around Template Toolkit-ish web development, support and consultancy. It's something that Simon Matthews and I have been talking about for a couple of years, but never really quite got around to taking the plunge. I was about to jump but work related improvments of the last few weeks have pushed it back onto the back burner. Now, what would it take to convince you that there are nicer places to work than central London? Guildford, for example, is quite wonderful and only a train ride away from the smoke... :-)= Agreed - why work in London - what about telecommuters ? i.e I want to stay communtin to my desk - all 3 meters of it (the commute - I live in a small flat) I'm *really* unsure about telecommuting. Seems to me that the way to really build a team (especially when doing serious development) is to have people in the same room; that way you get people who know the answers immediately on tap and able to overhear other discussions and contribute as appropriate. Whilst I love the journey to work in the home office I don't like the rest of the office conditions. Having people there is important. I can understand the idea of building a team, but I think I am more productive here, than in an office where I am nearly constantly interupted. Also not being able to ask a question of the person next door, means I go look for the answer - and the person next door can get on with it. Hmm... Have you looked at the XP books? XP ? MySQL AB is a example of a company that is developeing a "product" in a virtual sense - why not try and develope a virtual company ? Well, clients probably like offices. Admittedly not necessarily a *good* argument. Ah well there I agree - a posh office creates an impression that alot of big clients (read high revenue clients), find appealing. I've not argued against an office - just the idea that everyone has to be in it all the time ! And I like central London because (whatever else is wrong with it) it's relatively easy for everyone to get to by train no matter where they live. Trekking out to (for example) Guildford wouldn't be good for me. But is treking into insert that good to working from home ? ADSL is cheap and working from home can be supprisingly productive. Where it's available. That would be 'not from my exchange in the forseeable future...' Ah well, I want to move to Cornwall which will not get adsl for another few years ;-( Greg
Re: Consultancy company
David Cantrell wrote: On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 05:04:54PM +, Piers Cawley wrote: I'm *really* unsure about telecommuting. Seems to me that the way to really build a team (especially when doing serious development) is to have people in the same room; Plus there's too many distractions at home. Even if you live on your own. It's great to have the capability - for those evening brainwaves, or if you're ill - but doing it every day just doesn't work, at least for me. That should read there's too many distractions at home for me (or you as the case may be). I am about 150% more productive at home - 25 % because I save the journey, and the other 25% due to not having to go to meetings / going for long lunches / the chat that turns into a tangenical discussion on XZY / some Luser or PBH asking a stupid question that they could have worked out themselves if I was not there / insert any other activity that takes me away from the task in hand. Sorry the above turned into a rant, I just get a bit pissed off with closed minds that assume that having people in an office = productivity. Yes there are advantages to working in an office - i.e the team can be greater than the sum of its parts. But working from elsewhere also allows idividuals to be productive - often alot more. Why not combine the two - i.e have a day a week where everyone meets to brainstorm / ask questions / do what needs to be done to take advantage of a group. Rant over. Greg And I like central London because (whatever else is wrong with it) it's relatively easy for everyone to get to by train no matter where they live. Trekking out to (for example) Guildford wouldn't be good for me. Yeah. What he said. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Consultancy company
On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, you wrote: That should read there's too many distractions at home for me (or you as the case may be). im with greg on this one :) although I can see that some project would need 5 day a week attendance at some stages I am not convinced that that is the only way to do it all the time. The probelm I have at home is NOT being averly dostracted, but getting carried away and forgetting to eat for too many hours :) -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: People (no particular order): == = Pimp = = Accountant = == == = = BOFH = = Security Guru = == = === === = Perl Gurus' = = Perl Trainee Gurus = === === i'd add an MD/CEO who would initially do a lot of the pimping, the accountant could initially also be outsourced. the BOFH and Security Guru could be rolled into one. i'd also hire non-Perl programmers so that you didn't just have one leg to the stool Money: Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in. founders split say 50% of the equity, 25% reserved for latecomers and 25% pencilled for VC types contractors could expect to take a 50 to 75% drop in salary Open source / clients: Create projects for open source community (sell to clients with support). When not assigned to a specific money making project or client create next project to OS and make money from. agreed! Create client base with support contracts. also create partner arrangements, i can think of at least 3 big companies i maybe could arrange partnerships with, that in some cases would double the daily rate for consultancy Location snip ;-) have to pay them back with interest and stuff. equity surely? ;-) -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: have to pay them back with interest and stuff. equity surely? ;-) Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;) But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you. FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with VCs if you're already well established and actually have revenue and commitments and stuff Tony -- - Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk my Uncle Sol had a skunk farm but the skunks caught cold -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Leo Lapworth wrote: Location A big pub in central London. Top floors: development Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc.. What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... Greg a contractor in a "quite period" I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you have to pay them back with interest and stuff. Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one. Leo
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Tony Bowden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: have to pay them back with interest and stuff. equity surely? ;-) Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;) But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you. FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with VCs if you're already well established and actually have revenue and commitments and stuff well, this is all getting a bit close to the grain for me, if anyone wants to discuss the possibilities of a non-perl specialised arena consultancy feel free to to email me off list, however there may be nasty NDA's involved -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
RE: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Neil So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but) I know a few things about setting up and running SMEs. Happy to sit down for an hour or so one evening with someone if it would be of assistance. Unfortunately, I'm far too tied up with current venture to get much more involved than this. Regs, J. . Message Central plc Suite K307 Tower Bridge Business Complex 100 Clements Road London SE16 4DG Web: www.msgc.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: +44 20 7394 9511 Fax: +44 20 7231 8201 If you receive this email by mistake, please destroy your copy, having returned this copy to the sender. This email and any attachments to it may have been tampered with. Message Central plc cannot warrant the accuracy, completeness or freedom from viruses of this email or any attachments. You are strongly advised to check this email for viruses before downloading or opening any attachments. Opinions expressed in this email are those of the author and not of Message Central plc. -Original Message- From: Neil Ford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 January 2001 04:33 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered [snip the first bit... all great] Location A big pub in central London. Top floors: development Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops Purleese wireless is the only way to go. :-) Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc.. I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you have to pay them back with interest and stuff. Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one. So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but) Neil. -- Neil C. Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.binky.ourshack.org
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Greg McCarroll wrote: * Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Leo Lapworth wrote: Location A big pub in central London. Top floors: development Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc.. What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... nope, they are rewards, rewards are for sucess ;-) Thats were a few people have gone wrong lately then ;-) -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
"Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables, vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-) On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with... Trust me, they have much, much worse... -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Robin Szemeti wrote: On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote: Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling it as you did writing it in the first place. yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. just charge em bigtime! Personally I have done (thinks) about 4 this year ... two of them due to sudden arrival of previously unannounced deadline .. (result: badly implemented crap code, stress, huge costs and a re write a week later) and 2 because I was just so tied up in it and it was going so well that I didn;t want to stop .. so I didn't ... the code from the latter is untouched to date and some of the better code I've written. There is nothing wrong per-se with working on into the night ... the lack of interruption and no pesky phones ringing can be the ideal time to engross yourself in the trickiest and most complex of problems ... but trying to hack something together whilst knackered is a recipie for disaster. My motto: if it feels good, do it. Code when you feel at your most productive, if you don;t think your minds on the job bale out and play. One of the reason I hated a 9 to 5 job was people asking me to do hard things before lunchtime and having to quit doing hard things because it was 5:00. And in any case, if you *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project management. no matter how well planned the project I have yet to find a client who hasn;t kept some small but deadly surprise as a secret to throw in just when they know its getting close. Some of these bombshells are smaller than others .. but they always seem to be there, waiting ... no problem .. just expect em an be prepared .. and charge em BigTime :) Have you done much stuff under a DSDM style - ie. qrite a quick protype and then iterate on that ? (massive internal rewrites are allowed under this as it tries to stress the interface / functionality not the internal implentation) Greg I would be VERY interrested in working on a project managed by the XP method. It sounds to good to be true, (and I;ve done enough project managment to know that it probably is too good to be true) but I shure would like to give it a go. -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
