Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-20 Thread Redvers Davies

 IIRC, Sim City is one of Ken Livingstone's favorites.

There can't be the option to revoke all bird feed sellers permits.



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Steve Mynott ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   
   Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at
   success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those
   started by MBAs or middle managers..
   
  
  business sense != project sucess
 
 why not?  I would have thought similar skills were involved in both?
 

i used to think so, but having seen business ``hackers'' at work i have
seen the light. there is a breed of person who is so skilled at hacking
the business system/structures especially inter-business arrangements
that they have an entirely different skillset

looking back at Aaron's post i agree with him on middle management but
not wrt good MD's

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Thats were a few people have gone wrong lately then ;-)
 

yup

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
  
  "Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
   vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
   (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
   earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!
  
  You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-)
 
 Are they not in New York ?

No. San Antonio if traceroutes are to be believed.

 
 Dellhost are in texas - which I destest due to its attitude to capital
 P.

You not been following the Confederacy conspiracy?

 What like americans ?
 
 (present american company excluded)

No, cable installation "engineers". All cable company phone
support/accounts.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others,
 just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in
 others, just like anywhere else).  But it strikes me as being absurd that I
 hear EVERY YEAR of the power going out for large areas of major cities in
 .us, something which just doesn't happen in Europe.

It should be mandatory for all public servants to be adept at Sim
City.


-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Greg Cope

Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
 Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
  
   "Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
(San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!
  
   You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-)
 
  Are they not in New York ?
 
 No. San Antonio if traceroutes are to be believed.

I'll shut up then ;-0

 
 
  Dellhost are in texas - which I destest due to its attitude to capital
  P.
 
 You not been following the Confederacy conspiracy?
 

No - just dont like the gun ho lets fry anyone on deathrow - and now a a
great chestnut one of them got to be president ...

  What like americans ?
 
  (present american company excluded)
 
 No, cable installation "engineers". All cable company phone
 support/accounts.
 

Luckily I've not suffered from those.

Greg

 --
 Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
 Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
   Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
   -



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
  client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
  just charge em bigtime!
 nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight,
 so if they change their mind the deadline changes

What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding
a new job?

Michael



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  * Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   People (no particular order):
   
= Pimp   =   =  Accountant  =
= BOFH   =   = Security Guru =
= Perl Gurus' =  = Perl Trainee Gurus  =
  
  i'd add an MD/CEO who would initially do a lot of the
  pimping, the accountant could initially also be outsourced.
  the BOFH and Security Guru could be rolled into one.
  i'd also hire non-Perl programmers so that you didn't
  just have one leg to the stool
 
 Seems reasonable. Also think about Oracle and Sybase wizards
 (combined with the BOFH and/or $language Guru roles initially) and
 an NT person. Actually, *all* the tech people should be sufficiently
 multi-skilled to be able to do two things reasonably well - that way
 it's easier to pimp them, they can command more dosh, and they (and
 the company) are protected if one of their skills goes badly out of
 fashion.

And one of the goals of gurus within the consultancy should be to help
train up other folks who want to pick up that skill. Preferably in an
environment where something real is being acheived.

   Money:
 Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in.
  
  founders split say 50% of the equity, 25% reserved for latecomers
  and 25% pencilled for VC types
 
 Just wait for the arguing about how that 50% gets split!

That 50% gets split equally among the founding partners.

   Open source / clients:
 Create projects for open source community (sell to clients
 with support). When not assigned to a specific money 
 making project or client create next project to OS and 
 make money from.
  
  agreed!
 
 Yup. Plan to make money from support contracts on this open source
 stuff, and also from being a 'preferred implementor' using it.

Indeed. Ooh, this sounds very tempting.

-- 
Piers




Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
 
  What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
  mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... 
 
 Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
 idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters.  You just don't write good
 code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling
 it as you did writing it in the first place.  And in any case, if you
 *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project
 management.  Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the
 group too.  No need for a whole project mangler though to start with.
 
 As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be
 rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start.  That way they
 become a motivational tool.  Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated
 by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s.
 I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag
 for the office.  Or some clean jerrycans :-)

Big monitors on workstations are *not* rewards. They are essential
tools for the job. Anything smaller than 19" is rapidly approaching
too cramped for serious work. TFT monitors on workstations are
rewards...

 * - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client,
 get a PS 2. When we hit milestones *on time* in the next
 project, get another game for it.

Modulo the PS2 not necessarily being a motivator, that sounds like a
plan. 

-- 
Piers




Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  IMHO developers should be given the environment that is what makes them
  confotable, an IBM research center was on the telly the other day that
  had a big open plan style area, as well as individaul offices, as well
  as Lego.  The environment was totally focused to nuturing developers so
  that they create (hopefully good, bug-free(TM) code).
 
 Sounds like extreme programming to me...

I *so* want to try this. I'm getting fed up of being sole programmer
on projects.

-- 
Piers




Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Michael Stevens

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
   client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
   just charge em bigtime!
  nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight,
  so if they change their mind the deadline changes
 What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding
 a new job?

Although, thinking about it, I can also note that the "find a new job" approach
seems to work...

Michael



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
  On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
just charge em bigtime!
   nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight,
   so if they change their mind the deadline changes
  What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding
  a new job?
 
 Although, thinking about it, I can also note that the "find a new job" approach
 seems to work...

write a suggestions document of where the project management and
management functions are going wrong

if they ignore it leave

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



RE: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Andrew Bowman

 From: Greg McCarroll [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 write a suggestions document of where the project management and
 management functions are going wrong

 if they ignore it leave

Do you know anywhere this has happened Greg? ;-)




Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Leon Brocard

Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether:

 Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime...

OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the
New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely interested
in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. People with business
sense needed too, though: offices, computers and bandwidth don't come
cheap.

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... All new improved Brocard, now with Template Toolkit!



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Leon Brocard

Dave Cross sent the following bits through the ether:

 I'd love to come along, but probably wouldn't have time to get there
 and back during lunch. Can we do it one evening?

OK, Penderel's Oak 6.30pm for those who can't make it to lunch. I'll
go to both and take notes.

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/

... All new improved Brocard, now with Template Toolkit!



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Natalie Ford

At 14:55 19/01/01, Neil Ford wrote:
 Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Mmmm... so, when are we going to have a meeting about all this?
Well seeing as I will be amongst the great unwashed from next week,
anytime soon would be good.

AOLMe too!/AOL




Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Natalie Ford

At 15:49 19/01/01, Dave Cross wrote:
I'd love to come along, but probably wouldn't have time to get there
and back during lunch. Can we do it one evening?

An evening would be better for me, too...

Natalie




Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Leon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether:
 
  Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime...
 
 OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the
 New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely
 interested in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. People
 with business sense needed too, though: offices, computers and
 bandwidth don't come cheap.

Put me down for that. Might bring Gill as well. 

-- 
Piers




Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Alex Page

On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:27:18AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

 It should be mandatory for all public servants to be adept at Sim
 City.

IIRC, Sim City is one of Ken Livingstone's favorites.

Alex



RE: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Andy Mendelsohn



 From: Paul Makepeace [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 
 From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Is a million considered a lot in the UK still?
 
  Not by people who can add up.
 
 OK, same here then. Having said that, it's amazing how much people can
 stretch a few $currency_unit if they *don't* have investment :-)
 
   But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity
 
  Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north 
 American power system
  seems to be.  Even in cities.
 
 This is a different issue, 
 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/power.crisis/
 
 The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high 
 water tables,
 vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on 
 hosting in Texas
 (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
 earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!
 
 On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...
 

No, the US has PacBell engineers and countless tin-pot, unregulated ISPs who
offer you DSL service, take your deposit money and then promptly go bust
FSCKRS

Oh, and none of these people ever talk to each other.

mail to DSL provider:   Where's my DSL?
Reply:  problems with PacBell. We'll get back to you

2 weeks later:
mail to DSL provider (COVAD):   Where's my DSL?
Reply:  Please contact your ISP.

mail to ISP:Where's my DSL eh? It's been four weeks since you mailed me
to expect a visit from PacBell 'within the next few days'.
Reply:  SILENCE

Call ISP to shout at automated call-handler: WHERE's MY DSL!!
Reply:  Sorry, due to the number of enquiries, we're unable to take your
call at present. please call back.

mail to DSL provider:   I can't get through to my ISP, either by phone or
email, will you please cancel the order
Reply:  Please contact your ISP.

Oh, well, that's a $50 deposit blown away.

rant over...idleness resumed.

andy



[Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed:
 
 RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine
 systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are
 doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful
 programmers.
 
 And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as
 clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding
 them.

Talking of which, having interviewed/seen/lunched a fair number of
perlmongers recently and then offered a bunch of Java weenies, I still
need a BOFH. Not just someone who can "do", but who has vision to
drive things forward. Like me, only more anally retentive and will do
the second 90% of any job :-)

Anyone know one?

The money's only OK, but the toys are great :-)

And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
 right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 

Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

Dave...



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
  right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
 
 Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders?

Why keep giving the money to the pimps^H^H^H^H^H agencies?

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

 David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]
 
 you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders?

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy
to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send
invoices out on time.  All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of
consluting on the side, of course.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
  right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
 
 Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

I would join but I appear to be jinxed at the moment. so it would be
unfair on the rest ;)

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Neil Ford

Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed:

  RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine
  systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are
  doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful
  programmers.

  And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as
  clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding
  them.

Talking of which, having interviewed/seen/lunched a fair number of
perlmongers recently and then offered a bunch of Java weenies, I still
need a BOFH. Not just someone who can "do", but who has vision to
drive things forward. Like me, only more anally retentive and will do
the second 90% of any job :-)

Anyone know one?

Well kinda :-)

The money's only OK, but the toys are great :-)

I need to see thing how things pan out here and on a couple of other 
fronts first. Toys are always a good incentive.

And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy.

Quite happy to consider that, doing the sysadminy / strategy / 
project management type stuff can't code perl for toffee I'm 
afraid.

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread John

David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
  At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
   right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
  
  Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?
 
 Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

Hmmm, does sound good though.

John

-- 
:wq



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* John ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Hmmm, does sound good though.
 

it all depends what you mean, do you mean a proper consultancy or
a bunch of people getting together to share accounting/marketting?

if its a proper consultancy, you'd have to wear suits, be polite
and be in work for 9 in the morning

if you were a contractor joining it you could expect a 50%+ pay cut

instead of recruiters taking a skim, the running of the company
including advertising, management etc. would all eat some of the cash

also you'd need to focus it by problem areas not by language

having said all of this, if its a later its a good idea

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

"Robert Shiels" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 - Original Message -
 From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:25
 Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
 
 
  On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
   David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy
  to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send
  invoices out on time.  All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of
  consluting on the side, of course.
 
 
 Yes, but that's where the economies of scale come in. Half a dozen
 consultants ought to be able to afford the services of an accounts clerk,
 and maybe their own business manager who can do the pimp^h^h^h^hsearching
 around for work for you.

Gunther had a lot of experience with this at extropia and I have some
mail somorewhere I'm sure he'd be happy to share (but obviously I'll
ask him). However, they were developing an application rather than
bodyshopping^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H consulting.

If you/we got the likes of Andy *hint* on board then I'd go in at the
high end with "getting it right" type of stuff. 

There are also enough products out there that have perl behind them
that there's plenty of scope for installation/customising.

What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
 anyway?

Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
programmer. And the task.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



RE: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread dcross - David Cross

From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
 
  What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
  anyway?
 
 Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
 programmer. And the task.

Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
"getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.

Dave...

-- 


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Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
 than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
 if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
 "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.

When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge
clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff.

Michael



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* dcross - David Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
  
   What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
   anyway?
  
  Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
  programmer. And the task.
 
 Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
 than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
 if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
 "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.
 

yes, but if it was a proper consultancy youd be expected to write off some
of that occasionally and also maybe have some centralised support

of the course the real cash comes from ongoing support contracts

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:29:20PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote:
  Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
  than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
  if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
  "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.
 
 When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge
 clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff.

There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client
pays!

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business
 with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want
 to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow

Both, of course :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business
  with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want
  to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow
 
 Both, of course :-)
 

yip, but you have to make a choice

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  
   there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
   business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
   do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
   see it grow
  
  Both, of course :-)
 
 yip, but you have to make a choice

Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
metamorphose into the latter?

Dave...



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   
there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
see it grow
   
   Both, of course :-)
  
  yip, but you have to make a choice
 
 Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
 metamorphose into the latter?
 

an initial wage structure/share division for the former may not be
appropriate for the latter, this of course could be changed but you
may run into disagreements at the stage of this change

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

dcross - David Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
  
   What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
   anyway?
  
  Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
  programmer. And the task.
 
 Sounds a tad low to me.

I said "from..."

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Leo Lapworth

People (no particular order):

 ==   
 = Pimp   =   =  Accountant  =
 ==   

 ==   =
 = BOFH   =   = Security Guru =
 ==   =

 ===  ===
 = Perl Gurus' =  = Perl Trainee Gurus  =
 ===  ===

 Out source to other similar companies for:
- design
- mass HTMLing

Money:
Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in.

Open source / clients:
Create projects for open source community (sell to clients
with support). When not assigned to a specific money 
making project or client create next project to OS and 
make money from.

Create client base with support contracts.

Long term@ pimp out to only the best companies.

Location
A big pub in central London.
Top floors: development
Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops
Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..

I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or 
so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you 
have to pay them back with interest and stuff.

Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.

Leo




Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread James Powell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:21:45AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   
there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
see it grow
   
   Both, of course :-)
  
  yip, but you have to make a choice
 
 Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
 metamorphose into the latter?
 
 Dave...

I presume if the vast majority of the money is going directly into
people's pockets there won't be much going into things that build the
infrastructure of the company - training and so on.

Also one way to build a business is to create a "product" and build round
that (eg cough spew choke Vignette). Working on this sort of thing
may not result in great income in the short term compared to say chucking
ten people off to Goldman Sachs.

jp



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 People (no particular order):
 
  ==   
  = Pimp   =   =  Accountant  =
  ==   
 
  ==   =
  = BOFH   =   = Security Guru =
  ==   =
 
  ===  ===
  = Perl Gurus' =  = Perl Trainee Gurus  =
  ===  ===

i'd add an MD/CEO who would initially do a lot of the
pimping, the accountant could initially also be outsourced.
the BOFH and Security Guru could be rolled into one.
i'd also hire non-Perl programmers so that you didn't
just have one leg to the stool

 Money:
   Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in.

founders split say 50% of the equity, 25% reserved for latecomers
and 25% pencilled for VC types

contractors could expect to take a 50 to 75% drop in salary

 Open source / clients:
   Create projects for open source community (sell to clients
   with support). When not assigned to a specific money 
   making project or client create next project to OS and 
   make money from.

agreed!

   Create client base with support contracts.

also create partner arrangements, i can think of at least 3
big companies i maybe could arrange partnerships with, that in some
cases would double the daily rate for consultancy

 Location
snip ;-)

 have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
equity surely? ;-)


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Tony Bowden

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
 equity surely? ;-)

Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;)

But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you.

FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with VCs if you're already
well established and actually have revenue and commitments and
stuff

Tony
-- 
-
 Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk
 my Uncle Sol had a skunk farm but the skunks caught cold
-



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

Leo Lapworth wrote:
 
 
 Location
 A big pub in central London.
 Top floors: development
 Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops
 Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..

What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... 

Greg

a contractor in a "quite period"

 I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or
 so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you
 have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
 
 Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.
 
 Leo



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Tony Bowden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   have to pay them back with interest and stuff.
  equity surely? ;-)
 
 Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;)
 
 But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you.
 
 FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with VCs if you're already
 well established and actually have revenue and commitments and
 stuff
 

well, this is all getting a bit close to the grain for me, if anyone
wants to discuss the possibilities of a non-perl specialised arena
consultancy feel free to to email me off list, however there may be
nasty NDA's involved


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



RE: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread James Royan

Neil So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but)

I know a few things about setting up and running SMEs.  Happy to sit down
for an hour or so one evening with someone if it would be of assistance.

Unfortunately, I'm far too tied up with current venture to get much more
involved than this.

Regs,

J.
.

Message Central plc Suite K307 Tower Bridge Business Complex 100 Clements
Road London SE16 4DG
Web: www.msgc.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: +44 20 7394 9511 Fax: +44 20
7231 8201
If you receive this email by mistake, please destroy your copy, having
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opening any attachments. Opinions expressed in this email are those of the
author and not of Message Central plc.


 -Original Message-
From:   Neil Ford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent:   18 January 2001 04:33
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:RE:Consultancy company was  [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red
Hat worm discovered

[snip the first bit... all great]

Location
   A big pub in central London.
   Top floors: development
   Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops

Purleese wireless is the only way to go. :-)

   Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..

I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or
so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you
have to pay them back with interest and stuff.

Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one.

So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but)

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
 * Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Leo Lapworth wrote:
  
  
   Location
   A big pub in central London.
   Top floors: development
   Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops
   Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc..
 
  What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
  mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ...
 
 
 nope, they are rewards, rewards are for sucess ;-)

Thats were a few people have gone wrong lately then ;-)

 
 --
 Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



[Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson


In a bad mailbox incident I lost a couple of mails from BOFH inclined
people. Would y'all mail me again please?

Ta,

Dave

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

From: "Leo Lapworth" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or
 so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you
 have to pay them back with interest and stuff.

That's not VC then, that's a "loan". VC is where you heave up a huge chunk of
cash in return for a chunk of company and hope said company doesn't end up
being laughed at and taunted on fuckedcompany.com

Is a million considered a lot in the UK still? It's considered a lot over
here right now :-) But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity
:-(

Anyway, the longer you leave obtaining angel, seed and VC cash and the more
you can generate a demonstrably working revenue model the better. Consider VC
a last resort -- aim rather for alliances and partnerships, or a straight out
acquisition.

Paul






Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote:

 There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client
 pays!

not here at 'Redpoint Consulting' there isn't :)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote:
 People (no particular order):
 
  ==   
  = Pimp   =   =  Accountant  =
  ==   
 
  ==   =
  = BOFH   =   = Security Guru =
  ==   =
 
  ===  ===
  = Perl Gurus' =  = Perl Trainee Gurus  =
  ===  ===
 

ooh .. if you have room for an almost acceptable Perl  programmer with a
total inability to turn up on time, and an even worse habit of working
too long, let me know... I'll be in for a bit of that.  If its any
consolation I'm not as crap now as I was 6 months ago .. and a whole lot
less crap than I was a year ago ...

and I know a Security Guru who would probably be up for it as well  ..
and hes a proper one too, I believe his wardrobe has all three shades of
hat :)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote:

 What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
 mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... 

Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters.  You just don't write good
code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling
it as you did writing it in the first place.  And in any case, if you
*need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project
management.  Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the
group too.  No need for a whole project mangler though to start with.

As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be
rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start.  That way they
become a motivational tool.  Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated
by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s.
I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag
for the office.  Or some clean jerrycans :-)

* - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client, get
a PS 2.  When we hit milestones *on time* in the next project, get another
game for it.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Steve Mynott

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at
  success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those
  started by MBAs or middle managers..
  
 
 business sense != project sucess

why not?  I would have thought similar skills were involved in both?

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

brook's law:
adding manpower to a late software project makes it later



Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Is a million considered a lot in the UK still?

 Not by people who can add up.

OK, same here then. Having said that, it's amazing how much people can
stretch a few $currency_unit if they *don't* have investment :-)

  But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity

 Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north American power system
 seems to be.  Even in cities.

This is a different issue, http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/power.crisis/

The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
(San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!

On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...

Paul





Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

"Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
 vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
 (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
 earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!

You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-)

 
 On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...

Trust me, they have much, much worse...

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

David Cantrell wrote:
 
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
 
  What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not
  mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ...
 
 Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
 idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters.  You just don't write good
 code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling
 it as you did writing it in the first place.  And in any case, if you
 *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project
 management.  Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the
 group too.  No need for a whole project mangler though to start with.

I was thinking of my mid afternoon kip, before going down stairs to the
pub!  I was only joking ;-)

Totaly agree with the all nighter bit above.

 
 As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be
 rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start.  That way they
 become a motivational tool.  Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated
 by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s.
 I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag
 for the office.  Or some clean jerrycans :-)
 
 * - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client, get
 a PS 2.  When we hit milestones *on time* in the next project, get another
 game for it.

Ah, now motivational thoery is totally different - a PS2 is not that
motivational for me, and I would imaging alot of people.  What _is_
probably motivational about a PS2 equiped office is the environment that
allows you to play with a PS2.

IMHO developers should be given the environment that is what makes them
confotable, an IBM research center was on the telly the other day that
had a big open plan style area, as well as individaul offices, as well
as Lego.  The environment was totally focused to nuturing developers so
that they create (hopefully good, bug-free(TM) code).

What people seem to be missing is that you need clients - once you've
got some doing the code is the easy bit.

Greg

Who could do the BOFH / security / perl bit  but does not want to
commute further than his home office

 
 --
 David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/
 
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
 "Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
  vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
  (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
  earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!
 
 You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-)

Are they not in New York ?

Dellhost are in texas - which I destest due to its attitude to capital
P.

 
 
  On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...
 
 Trust me, they have much, much worse...

What like americans ?

(present american company excluded)

Greg


 
 --
 Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
 Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
   Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
   -



Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 12:11:23PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north American power system
  seems to be.  Even in cities.
 
 This is a different issue, http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/power.crisis/

I know :-)  Although actually, I feel it is at least a bit related.  It
seems that CA tried to copy the de-regulation which was implemented in
various parts of Europe (including the UK) but that they decided to tamper
with a system which demonstrably worked (if it ain't broke don't fix it!),
but worse, they tried to shoe-horn it into a completely different
environment.  The UK has for many years had a fair amount of spare generating
capacity, and there are new power stations being built.  CA did not have any
spare generating capacity of note, and has not built any new power stations.
Duh.

 The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables,
 vicious weather and earthquakes.

And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others,
just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in
others, just like anywhere else).  But it strikes me as being absurd that I
hear EVERY YEAR of the power going out for large areas of major cities in
.us, something which just doesn't happen in Europe.

  The smart money goes on hosting in Texas
 (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively
 earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free!
 
 On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with...

Nah, you just have their cousins in the baby bells :-)

Actually, I've had no problems with BT engineers in the three years I've
lived here.  My voice line came in just fine and has never stopped working.
Same with the ISDN, and the ADSL line.  Telewest, on the other hand - I
wouldn't trust them to run the hundred yard dash, let alone my comms.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
 On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote:
 
  Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad
  idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters.  You just don't write good
  code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling
  it as you did writing it in the first place.
 
 yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a
 client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it ..
 just charge em bigtime!
 
 Personally I have done (thinks) about 4 this year ... two of them due to
 sudden arrival of previously unannounced deadline .. (result: badly
 implemented crap code, stress, huge costs and a re write a week later)
 and 2 because I was just so tied up in it and it was going so well that I
 didn;t want to stop .. so I didn't ... the code from the latter is
 untouched to date and some of the better code I've written.
 
 There is nothing wrong per-se with working on into the night ... the lack
 of interruption and no pesky phones ringing can be the ideal time to
 engross yourself in the trickiest and most complex of problems ... but
 trying to hack something together whilst knackered is a recipie for
 disaster. My motto: if it feels good, do it.  Code when you feel at your
 most productive, if you don;t think your minds on the job bale out and
 play.  One of the reason I hated a 9 to 5 job was people asking me to do
 hard things before lunchtime and having to quit doing hard things because
 it was 5:00.
 
  And in any case, if you
  *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project
  management.
 
 no matter how well planned the project I have yet to find a client who
 hasn;t kept some small but deadly surprise as a secret to throw in just
 when they know its getting close. Some of these bombshells are smaller
 than others .. but they always seem to be there, waiting ... no problem
 .. just expect em an be prepared .. and charge em BigTime :)

Have you done much stuff under a DSDM style - ie. qrite a quick protype
and then iterate on that ? (massive internal rewrites are allowed under
this as it tries to stress the interface / functionality not the
internal implentation)

Greg

 
 I would be VERY interrested in working on a project managed by the XP
 method. It sounds to good to be true, (and I;ve done enough project
 managment to know that it probably is too good to be true) but I shure
 would like to give it a go.
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti
 
 The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
 So I installed Linux!