Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-13 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:44:11AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 Are there any of you lot still looking for jobs? 

Still open? I think I might have someone for you.

-- 
If you give a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, 
he'll be warm for the rest of his life.





Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-13 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 07:44:11AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
  Are there any of you lot still looking for jobs? 
 
 Still open? I think I might have someone for you.

I was fishing on behalf of a client who may well need a perl linux
person in the short to medium term. So, the answer's no for the
moment although when the time's right it looks like there will be
people.

Does that make sense?


-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
   



Re: JOB: Eng. Proj Management

2001-06-11 Thread Jonathan Peterson

At 00:23 09/06/01 +0100, you wrote:
Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  A reasonably reliable headhunter I've dealt with in the past is
  looking for technical project managers for new web company. Let me
  know if interested...

Hmm... I wonder if I could morph...

Come over to the dark side...

Bet that's a permie thing isn't it?

He didn't say, so probably that's what they'd prefer, yes.



--
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com

-- 
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-11 Thread Philip Newton

Piers Cawley wrote:
 I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.

4XL, innit? (Remembering you at yapc::Europe:19100 at the T-shirt stand,
wondering whether even to bother looking at them.)

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-11 Thread Piers Cawley

Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Piers Cawley wrote:
  I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.
 
 4XL, innit? (Remembering you at yapc::Europe:19100 at the T-shirt stand,
 wondering whether even to bother looking at them.)

4XL Tall acksherly.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-09 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.

Big boned.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
   



Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-09 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.
 
 Big boned.

Nope.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-09 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:56:20AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.
  
  Big boned.
 
 Nope.

BBH, Big Beautiful Hacker?

Paul

-- 
Abandon normal instruments



JOB: Eng. Proj Management

2001-06-08 Thread Jonathan Peterson



Hi,

A reasonably reliable headhunter I've dealt with in the past is looking for 
technical project managers for new web company. Let me know if 
interested...



-- 
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: JOB: Eng. Proj Management

2001-06-08 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Fri, 08 Jun 2001, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 Hi,
 
 A reasonably reliable headhunter I've dealt with in the past is looking for 
 technical project managers for new web company. Let me know if 
 interested...

new web company .. wow .. now theres a phrase you don;t here very often
these days ...

-- 
Robin Szemeti   

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World 



Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-08 Thread Piers Cawley

Dominic Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:46:39AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
  Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   I presume that this is a permie thing?
  
  Yes. And I'd estimate that _most_ of you I know would be, um, a bit
  too heavyweight for them...
 
 You calling me fat, boy?

I don't know about you, but I'm *definitely* fat.

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: JOB: Eng. Proj Management

2001-06-08 Thread Piers Cawley

Jonathan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 A reasonably reliable headhunter I've dealt with in the past is
 looking for technical project managers for new web company. Let me
 know if interested...

Hmm... I wonder if I could morph... Bet that's a permie thing isn't it?


-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




[Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-07 Thread Dave Hodgkinson


I'm doing some work for a .com type company in the travel sector. They
have a network support blokey and a Windozey programmer type, but
since their live system is apache and linux they have a slight hole in
their skillset.

Are there any of you lot still looking for jobs? 

Nice offices in W2 BTW.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
   



Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-07 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I'm doing some work for a .com type company in the travel sector. They
 have a network support blokey and a Windozey programmer type, but
 since their live system is apache and linux they have a slight hole in
 their skillset.
 
 Are there any of you lot still looking for jobs? 

I presume that this is a permie thing?

-- 
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com




Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-07 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I presume that this is a permie thing?

Yes. And I'd estimate that _most_ of you I know would be, um, a bit
too heavyweight for them...

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy
   



Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-07 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:46:39AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  I presume that this is a permie thing?
 
 Yes. And I'd estimate that _most_ of you I know would be, um, a bit
 too heavyweight for them...

You calling me fat, boy?

-Dom

-- 
| Semantico: creators of major online resources  |
|   URL: http://www.semantico.com/   |
|   Tel: +44 (1273) 72   |
|   Address: 33 Bond St., Brighton, Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK. |



Re: [Possible Job] Perl, Linux

2001-06-07 Thread Alex Page

On Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:46:39AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I presume that this is a permie thing?

 Yes. And I'd estimate that _most_ of you I know would be, um, a bit
 too heavyweight for them...

Heh, same that even a wonder-newbie like me has gainful employment
right now :-)

Alex
-- 
Four pints of milk, a turkey baster and some plastic
 tubing, that's all you need.
http://www.cpio.org/~grimoire
http://www.livejournal.com/users/diffrentcolours



[JOB] short modperl, long systems at LSE (fwd)

2001-06-06 Thread jo walsh


friend at LSE needing 5 days of mod_perl XML freelancing, said i'd pass
this along, didnt actually wait for response, but hey.
oh gosh, i should finish the london jobs database. and put the new disk in
penderel, which it was too sunny to do during the tech meet. early next
week i guess :/ soz

jo
xx
--

From: Emmott,Stephen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I'm looking for a freelance PERL[sic] programmer to write an Apache module
for us - part of our content management solution at LSE. It's a really
interesting project based around navigation generated dynamically from
metadata (RDF, Dublin Core).
We have full specification and statement of work - so whoever does the
work will have a clear brief.

P.S. We've also advertised for a Systems Officer to work in the department I
manage - Website Services:

http://jobs.ac.uk/jobfiles/LE213.html







JOB: There's one going here!!!

2001-05-15 Thread Leo Lapworth

I thought there might be some people out there
interested in this.

Please contact Ed directly, but feel free to ask me 
questions (off list or on IRC) if you want, I've been here 3 weeks.

Cheers

Leo


CLOUDBAND.COM LIMITED
=

Cloudband was set up in 1998 to provide online services to a niche within
the international art and antiques business - carpets, texiles, Asian and
tribal art. The company has 20 employees in its premises in Fitzroy Square,
London W1. Staff include a number of  prominent figures from the specialist
marketplace as well as a software team of 5. All software development is
done in-house, using tools including mod_perl, mason and postgres in a linux
environment.

Job Description: Web Developer
==

Software Development Duties


Involvement in projects such as:

- Advanced search facility
- Enhancements to Arcade product such as Featured Items
- Directory Product
- Banner ad management system
- Personalisation / agent systems for pushing content
- Ecommerce transaction processing
- Management Information Systems (Accounts, Marketing etc)
- Online Auction software

Core Tools
--

- Perl
- javascript
- modPerl / Apache internals
- Unix
- SQL
- mason
- Postgres

Opportunities
-

Possibilities exist for training and / or skills development in:
- programming languages
- design methodologies
- team leadership

If you would like to know more, please write, with your CV, to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thank you.




JOB

2001-04-25 Thread Nick Barton

Hi everyone,

I don't know it is polite to use this as a channel to get work but needs
must.


My (own) company is going thru' a lean time and we need
temporary/contract/fixed price work, preferable performed at my office here
in Bath. I've several years PERL/mod_perl/Apache skills and 20 years other
software experience. We can also draw on other resources if necessary. I
have my own server etc.

If anyone knows of any leads I'd be grateful.

thanks in advance

best regards

Nick Barton
Technical Director
Careerbox Ltd.
44(0) 870 9080202
www.careerbox.co.uk

 





JOB: Anyone still looking?

2001-04-19 Thread dcross - David Cross

I got this from someone called Raphael Mankin
[EMAIL PROTECTED], but I don't really know how he fits into
the picture :(

Perl progger required to work in Golders Green. Permanent/contract as you
will. 

Tasks:
1. To nursemaid a new, Mason based, web app through its initial period
2. To maintain and develop this and any other apps as they come along
3. Some Linux sysadmin (SuSE).

Location: right next to Golders Green tube.
Rate ca. 22k or equivalent for contract
Contact: Leo Scheiner 020 8731 7077 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


And no, I don't know what a "Perl progger" is either!

Dave...

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.



Re: JOB: Anyone still looking?

2001-04-19 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:17:22AM +0100, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 Rate ca. ?22k or equivalent for contract

Is that really the going rate for Perl proggers in London? Doesn't seem
like much (for reasonable definitions of "progger" :-).

Paul



JOB: Another one (Banking)

2001-04-19 Thread dcross - David Cross

This is for people who don't have a problem working in a bank.

Note: It's MSB, so normal caveats apply.

Dave...

=

Dave,

The following is a full spec, Please distribute as widely as possible as I
am very keen to find the right candidate.

Spec :

Opportunity has arisen within clients Credit Risk area. Looking for
experienced analyst/programmer to design and develop functions within the
credit application. The application is a strategic credit-monitoring server
for the client, in production in Europe and North America. It is also about
to be upgraded to support recent accusation.

Server implemented on Sybase database, using a mixture of shell scripts,
perl, C and C++.

Major design and development work remains to enhance its functionality and
integrate with all other risk systems, plus on-going production
support/enhancements.

The role will involve all aspects of the software development life cycle,
such as developing technical specifications, coding, tuning and preparing
code for release and testing.

Skills required :

Essential
Perl Application (i.e. used Perl to write applications, not as a scripting
language or Web development). Preferably with knowledge of Perl's OO
features.
General OO knowledge
Sybase, T-SQL
Unix as a platform.

Desirable
C/C++
Banking knowledge.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Robert Lawton
Sybase Associate
0208 315 9386
07930 550 179
www.msb.com
MSB International PLC
Hanover Place
8 Ravensbourne Road
Bromley
BR1 1HP

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.



Re: JOB: Anyone still looking?

2001-04-19 Thread Leo Lapworth

I'm glad to say I am now employed *cheer*.

Was a rather nice birthday present to get today.

Anyway, probably see you folks tonight.

Leo



Re: JOB: Anyone still looking?

2001-04-19 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:01:10PM +0100, Leo Lapworth wrote:
 I'm glad to say I am now employed *cheer*.
 
 Was a rather nice birthday present to get today.

"Congratulations" x 2!

 Leo

Funny name for an Aries :-) Oh well, fire sign all the same.

Paul, 10th Apr.



Re: JOB: Another one (Banking)

2001-04-19 Thread jo walsh


 On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:53:09AM +0100, dcross - David Cross wrote:
  This is for people who don't have a problem working in a bank.

 Would it be worth forking london-pm-jobs?

i've been inadvertently hacking on a web-based forum for this stuff for a
little while... will talk about it a bit tonight, and happy to accept
suggestions and offers of tweaks for it. nothing to see at the moment,
though :/

jo





RE: JOB: Another one (Banking)

2001-04-19 Thread dcross - David Cross

Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 1:05 PM

 On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:53:09AM +0100, dcross - David Cross wrote:
  This is for people who don't have a problem working in a bank.
 
 Would it be worth forking london-pm-jobs?

We're creating a london.pm jobs database. Jo will be talking about it
tonight.

Dave...

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
system.



Re: JOB: Another one (Banking)

2001-04-19 Thread Paul Mison

On 19/04/2001 at 13:04 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:53:09AM +0100, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 This is for people who don't have a problem working in a bank.

Would it be worth forking london-pm-jobs?

There's a fairly long standing and, from what I remember, well
respected habit of using JOB in the subject line- if it really annoys
you, filtering on that should reduce the jobness of the list quite a
lot.

Of course, if anyone is doing this they'll be missing this thread too...

--
:: paul
:: how fickle fate can be





Re: JOB: Another one (Banking)

2001-04-19 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:38:44PM +0100, Paul Mison wrote:
 There's a fairly long standing and, from what I remember, well
 respected habit of using JOB in the subject line- if it really annoys
 you, filtering on that should reduce the jobness of the list quite a
 lot.

Ah, bingo. Thanks.

 Of course, if anyone is doing this they'll be missing this thread too...

But if they're already doing it, they know about it, so it doesn't matter.

-- 
Within a computer, natural language is unnatural.



Re: JOB: Another one (Banking)

2001-04-19 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, jo walsh wrote:


  On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:53:09AM +0100, dcross - David Cross wrote:
   This is for people who don't have a problem working in a bank.
 
  Would it be worth forking london-pm-jobs?

 i've been inadvertently hacking on a web-based forum for this stuff for a
 little while...

How can you inadvertently hack ?

/J\




RE: JOB: Another one (Banking)

2001-04-19 Thread Matthew Jones

 How can you inadvertently hack ?

"I'll just quickly knock a little something together to do task X ... hmmm,
actually, wouldn't it be cool if it could also do task Y, just for
convenience sake ... hmm, that works, but I'm sure it could work
stronger/faster/better than before ... "

And so on until it's suddenly 5am and you're out of Red Bull.

-- 
matt | credo 



Re: JOB: Another one (Banking)

2001-04-19 Thread jo walsh


  i've been inadvertently hacking on a web-based forum for this stuff for a
  little while...

 How can you inadvertently hack ?

at a scattiness load as consistently high as mine has been lately, it's
hard to do many things advertently
consider yourself warned :)

z




Re: JOB: Anyone still looking?

2001-04-19 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 Rate ca. 22k or equivalent for contract

Borrocks

/J\




RE: JOB: Anyone interested

2001-04-18 Thread Jonathan Peterson

 FYI this particular role wasn't available; they tried to put me up for
 some other things but didn't even get as far as interviews.
 
 Roger (now working elsewhere)

Curious. Identical to my experiences with them.

Jon (soon to be working elsewhere)
 




Re: JOB: Anyone interested

2001-04-17 Thread Roger Burton West

On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:11:47AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:

Warning - MSB used to have the reputation of being the biggest bunch of
cowboys in the recruitment industry. I wouldn't normally pass this on
but thought it might be of interest to some of the ex-Torrington people.

FYI this particular role wasn't available; they tried to put me up for
some other things but didn't even get as far as interviews.

Roger (now working elsewhere)



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:56:37PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
 Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
 3.0?

Lynx  Mosaic practically don't exist, demographically speaking.

 I'd say that's marketing and not something built-in. You want client-side
 Perl, you have ActiveState's PerlScript. What, nobody has a client for it?
 Well, lack of marketing.

Or lack of out-of-the-box installation.

 I think there was even a Tcl plugin for Netscape that nobody used. Probably
 not because of merit or lack thereof, but just because it wasn't hyped
 enough, and/or didn't ship as standard with a major browser.

Because Tcl is shit, shurely.

In any case, the point is there is lots of stuff Java can do Perl
can't, for practical, ease of use -centric values of "can't".

Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Simon Wistow

Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
 IMHO to be of any use certification needs to be HUGE .. eg we need
 O'Reilly AND Manning behind it or it simply won't fly. We could write a
 very comprehensive set of tests and assesment levels, do all that. 

The theory driving test in this country was doen by getting driving
instructors/examiners to send in questiosn and then they assesed them
and stuck them in the question pool. Perhaps something like that might
be in order - get peeps to send in questions and then get 'editors' to
grade them from 0 (silly/rejected) to 5 (damnably hard Deep Perl
Wizadry).



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread David Cantrell

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:03:14AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:56:37PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
  Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
  3.0?
 
 Lynx  Mosaic practically don't exist, demographically speaking.

But things like Avantgo - which are getting more and more users all the
time - have pretty much the same capabilities as a text-only browser.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:33:59AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  * Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   Have you thought about charging structures, SAP charge about 300gbp to take
   a certification exam, and they offer courses that are specifically designed
  
  i had thought about a 20 quid fee to be sent to YAS
 
 I think (although I'm not sure) Greg sees the plan working the same way as
 I do: we (the various trainers involved) provide training courses at our
 usual rates which *prepare* the student to take an exam for a nominal fee
 to gain accreditation. (ie, training courses don't include or substitute
 for the exam.)

yip and you build in, a little 10 or 20 quid donation to YAS for
everyone done, however this would probably be voluntary or some
such - i dont really know. but if you are doing a training course
that cost 500+ to attend, 10 or 20 seems reasonable.

but as i said , i really dont know yet.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Chris Benson

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:03:14AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:56:37PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
  Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
  3.0?
 
 Lynx  Mosaic practically don't exist, demographically speaking.

Bzzzt!  Lynx doesn't exist *in*the*logs* because a Lynx user d/loads
one page sees that the company is basically saying "FUCK OFF I DON'T
WANT YOUR BUSINESS" and never comes back.

Whereas Nescape/IE d/loads 500 separate line segments, icons,
title-bars, tool-bars, spinning logos and other crap and instantly become
"demographic-leaders".

Mmmm, I think I better chill-out a bit.
-- 
Chris Benson -- Lynx user when I can,  Netscape for the crap.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Simon Cozens

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 09:13:16PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 yip and you build in, a little 10 or 20 quid donation to YAS for
 everyone done, however this would probably be voluntary or some
 such - i dont really know. but if you are doing a training course
 that cost 500+ to attend, 10 or 20 seems reasonable.

I like that. "10% of the fees from this course will be donated to
Yet Another Society." Hmph. I s'pose I'd better join Yet Another
Mailing List. :)

-- 
"Darkly hinting of head hitting desk" 
-- Megahal (trained on asr), 1998-11-05



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 11:50:57AM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
 But things like Avantgo - which are getting more and more users all the
 time - have pretty much the same capabilities as a text-only browser.

From a display point of view, yes, but they certainly have the
capability to run a JVM (J2ME -- micro edition). Right now there
isn't much call for it but there will be (IMO) with wireless services.

Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 is it? ... sure you don't mean 'the database used by most large
 corporates for e-commerce' ? I know nothing about the spread of spend
 between the large coprporations and the small 5 dollar outfits .. but
 theres a hell of a lot of small guys out there, running MySQL and
 postgres ... maybe in spend oracle wins, but in sheer numbers of
 transaction the other 2 proabably have the upper hand

Foul!

You mentioned MySQL and transactions together.   :-)

-Dom (and no, layering db3 underneath doesn't count)



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be without
a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up with someone
like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses to "PCSE"
standards) this might be a big winner.

alex

ps i only mention learning tree because they're a company people know of
OUTSIDE the Perl community.

ps2 PCSE - Perl Certified Software Engineer? lack of imagination?


 
 I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
 NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
 make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
 wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
 argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
 
 This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
 can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
 then we can achieve something. 
 
 I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
 Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
 they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
 forum/organisation does this)
 
 I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
 the wider stage, but ho hum.
 
 Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross 
 (with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
 Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.
 
 Greg
 
 
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be without
 a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up with someone
 like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses to "PCSE"
 standards) this might be a big winner.
 

Well i was hoping on getting an initial commitment of people
to sign up to it from the list, they would effectively join
some `forum' under YAS, they would sign up to some fairly
trivial commitments (e.g. employers would `recognise' the
qualification). Then we'd figure out the first 3 skill areas.

This would leave us with some content and a body. At this point
hopefully people could take the test and we could then move
on to evangelise it with people like learning tree.

The important thing from my POV is that its not learning tree
from day one, as they will simply want to say - taking learning
tree course Perl101 means people get core competency and it
would become the usual noddy thing. Involving them later when
the forum was established would give them slightly less
clout.

This is of course, imho.

Greg


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
 Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
 different types of table for some reason.

It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
operation, hash, btree and recno.

I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
on 2nd hand evidence.

-Dom



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
  On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:10:00PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
   e-commerce, plain and simple.

gartuitous snippage
 
 no .. it _does_ have its strong points .. I wouldn't have even
 bought a  book if i thought it was really bad .. but it just seems to
 make some things so hard to do.  Mybe its just me being crap. I'd be
 intrested to set a good perl programmer and a Java guy head to head ..
 get em to build an app to the same spec and see how long they took, and
 then get them to extend it in some way and time that ..


I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects where given
to lots of programmers, the usualy results were show i.e algorythm
design was the most important factor, although on the whole scripting
langauges were faster to develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and
lower memory footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
the URL.

Greg
 
 don't get me wrong .. I'm not just Java bashing .. but really, the hype
 it gets would have you believe its all tings to all men .. in reallity
 its got good points, but some big holes too ...
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti
 
 The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
 So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 03:55:57AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:51:46 +0100 (BST), alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  ps2 PCSE - Perl Certified Software Engineer? lack of imagination?
 
 Shouldn't that be CPH for "Certified Perl Hacker" or is that missing 
 the point?

Certified Perl Regular would be far more amusing.

"Dammit, get me a CPR!"

-Dom



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


depends what you want from the exercise - if you are a perl shop and want
to know how good applicants are then, yes, CPH (but if you're a perl shop
you can pretty quickly determine how good people are anyway). so, i can't 
really see the point in this. 

i think it should sound like a professional certification a la MCSE simply
to address corporate criticisms that this is a hackers only language with
no certification.

i think the whole initiative should be more about making Perl be taken
more seriously OUTSIDE the community. 

alex

 
 Shouldn't that be CPH for "Certified Perl Hacker" or is that missing 
 the point?
 
 Dave...
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:51:46 +0100 (BST), alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be
  without a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up
  with someone like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses
  to "PCSE" standards) this might be a big winner.

 It's a fair point. But do Learning Tree have a good reputation in the
 marketplace? I'm not sure they do.


I categorically refused yesterday to allow any of out people to be sent on
a Learning Tree Perl course ...

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 The important thing from my POV is that its not learning tree
 from day one, as they will simply want to say - taking learning
 tree course Perl101 means people get core competency and it
 would become the usual noddy thing. Involving them later when
 the forum was established would give them slightly less
 clout.


Absolutely right.  To bring Learning Tree (or any other Commercial
Training House ) would mean we would prbably be compelled to go along with
what they already teach - which may or may not be any good as far as we
are concerned - after all they have a whole bunch invested in training
materials and existing trainers which they are not going to give up easily
...


Possibly a first step would be to work out how to certify the certifiers
as it were ...


/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread James Powell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:59:35AM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
  Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
  different types of table for some reason.
 
 It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
 DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
 operation, hash, btree and recno.
 
 I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
 across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
 of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
 on 2nd hand evidence.
 
 -Dom

But as well as Berkeley there's innobase and gemini (not in yet?)
table types that support transactions.
http://www.mysql.com/documentation/mysql/bychapter/manual_Table_types.html

I can't say I've used any of them or would trust any of them...

And MySQL has got full-text indexing now - didn't notice that one

http://www.mysql.com/news/article-54.html
"MySQL 3.23 now has full-text indexing and searching capabilities. This
allows you to search your vast databases of
textual information, with queries returning search string
occurrence/relevance."


Incidentally, saw your ssh letter in the new LJ...

jp



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Mark Fowler

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

  Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
  problems with Perl work in london,
 
 Are employers there too stupid to read CVs? Or too lazy?

I'm too lazy.  Speaking as someone who has recently spent a while vetting
CVs for people for a job, it's hell.  For a experienced perl programmer
it's easier for me to tell if you've had the experience by what jobs you've
done before.  For a mid range programmer (who may have only worked at one
company before) it's really hard.

CVs are the first step through the door.  I'm just trying to assess if
you're good enough to have in for an interview.  That's where I, and my
boss, and probably my bosses boss will actually make the decision.  A
certification system I could trust would be really helpful.  It would save
so much time trying to get rid of the guy that came in and said 'I don't
use modules, I prefer to write my own code in the script.' et al.

Later.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 IMHO to be of any use certification needs to be HUGE .. eg we need
 O'Reilly AND Manning behind it or it simply won't fly. We could write a

i think this will end up a slow process

 very comprehensive set of tests and assesment levels, do all that. It
 could be the very best thought out, standards based certification for
 Perl out there .. but without a Major Backer (eg the two afore mentioned
 companies) its nothing ... 

that can wait - stage a. is all that is important for now

 a) Fuck it, Just do it .. ( so thats got the ball rolling)
 b) get some other groups (eg NY.pm ) involved to get the support of the
 Perl community at large

ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
(or something similar)

Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 that's not the point. 
 
 if learning tree design a course (with the community's approval
 natch) that is of sufficient standard and then put on their catalogs:
 
 Advanced Perl (3 days) - 1750 GBP + VAT
 
   [preparation for PCSE exam]  with a nice logo 
 
 imagine the value of free publicity that is coming out of that! None of
 the organisations mentioned (netthink, iterative, or indeed codix) have
 anything like the clout individually or collectively to start getting a
 PCSE logo recognisable to IT directors.
 

yip its great, but you can't get there on day #1

 BTW, just so we're clear - i was thinking of another org to actually do
 the certification. Maybe a privately owned company formed from the
 london.pm membership.
 

YAS can probably take care of this, i mailed Kevin last night, but
havent heard back yet

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

James Powell wrote:
 
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:59:35AM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
  On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
   Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
   different types of table for some reason.
 
  It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
  DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
  operation, hash, btree and recno.
 
  I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
  across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
  of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
  on 2nd hand evidence.
 
  -Dom
 
 But as well as Berkeley there's innobase and gemini (not in yet?)
 table types that support transactions.
 http://www.mysql.com/documentation/mysql/bychapter/manual_Table_types.html
 
 I can't say I've used any of them or would trust any of them...

I've tested innobase and it appears to be fine.  It very Oracle like in
the way it works (it needs loasd of resources to run quickly).  MyISAM
table handlers for speed and Innobase table handlers for transaction
based tables (also with row locking) and you should be away.  (The
Innobase code is apparently not new, and has been taken from another
project and bolted on, which sounds bad but actually appears to work
quite well).

Greg

 
 And MySQL has got full-text indexing now - didn't notice that one
 
 http://www.mysql.com/news/article-54.html
 "MySQL 3.23 now has full-text indexing and searching capabilities. This
 allows you to search your vast databases of
 textual information, with queries returning search string
 occurrence/relevance."
 
 Incidentally, saw your ssh letter in the new LJ...
 
 jp



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Have you thought about charging structures, SAP charge about 300gbp to take
 a certification exam, and they offer courses that are specifically designed

i had thought about a 20 quid fee to be sent to YAS

 to help you pass, which culminate in taking the exam itself. And if you are
 collecting money and giving out qualifications, have you decided what
 company should be doing it. And you'll need some way to say that the
 certifiers are certified to do this anyway, otherwise the certification
 won't be worth much.

i have some ideas about this, i think i mentioned it in a seperate email


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?

alex

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:

  I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
  of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
  this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
  certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
  of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
  from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
  for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
  the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
  they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
  This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
  is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
  were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
  of the recipients of the test.
 
 
 As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
 multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
 
 /Robert
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll


what robert describes or what i describe?

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
 responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
 would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?
 
 alex
 
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:
   I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
   of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
   this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
   certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
   of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
   from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
   for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
   the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
   they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
   This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
   is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
   were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
   of the recipients of the test.
  
  
  As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
  multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
  
  /Robert
  
  
 
 -- 
 
 alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
 director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
 codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   
-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:08:44 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:02:39 -0500 (EST), Dave Cross wrote:
  At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:34:41 +0100, Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
   Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 But look at your headers:
  References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
 Where's [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave?

You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
it today.

Dave...
[who handily has his copy of "Programming Internet Email" on his desk]



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread Mark Fowler

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
 it today.

Your webmail CC is screwed up too.  On my mails there's now new line after
the Cc: so I get a line that says 

Cc: X-Mailer: foo 

which my mail client (PINE) wants to reply to...

Later.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








RE: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Peterson

  Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
  to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already

 TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
 different styles. How can you evaluate this?

I don't think it's a huge problem. For a start, certification can be
multiple choice, which eliminates the need to deal with correct answers in
esoteric style. (shamless plug for my amazing perltest project -
http://www.snowdrift.org/computers/perl/pt/)

Secondly, there is absolutely not reason why the certification can't agree
on a compulsory style. This is what happens in driving tests. There is more
than one way to turn the steering wheel, from suicide spinner to hand over
hand, but the driving certification declares that shuffling (or whatever
it's called) is the 'correct way'. No-one actually believes that you're a
dangerous driver if you use one of the other methods in some situations, and
it all works OK.

Thirdly, IMO certification is more about establishing that the candidate
doesn't do stupid things than that they are very clever. The driving test
only seeks to establish that you've read the highway code, and can get from
A to B without screwing up.

Likewise Perl certification should seek to show that a candidate has RTFM'd
and get get from A to B without screwing up, for various values of A and B .


 If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
 consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

Most _people_ consider MCSEs a useful way of gauge a minimum standard of
knowledge in prospective employees. Most professional system engineers and
programers may feel differently.




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


sorry, was unclear. robert proposed a meta-certification body which then
gave the tests out to certifiers (netthink, iterative etc). this seems to
me to be far too complicated and fragmented.

i think you need a single organisation which plays the difficult balancing
act of:

* being respected and trusted by the Perl community (there's no
  point if the Perl decision makers poo poo it)
* has enough autonomy from the Perl community or transparency to
  not be perceived as a guild / closed shop (this accusation could
  be levelled very easily if the exam were perceived to be designed so that
  only an inner sanctum could possibly pass it)
* has rich enough grading so that mere mortals can achieve some
  level of certification and gurus can also be recognised  - i
  think it is in everyone's interests if lots of new people pass PCSE 
  at some level (i think there is a strong perception that Perl skills 
  are hard to find)
* being commercial - particularly focused on marketing the PCSE
  logo to training companies, logos and IT directors. I don't
  think a voluntary, well-meaning effort will achieve this. 

alex

 
 * alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
  responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
  would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?
  
  alex
  
  On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:
I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
of the recipients of the test.
   
   
   As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
   multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
   
   /Robert
   
   
  
  -- 
  
  alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
  director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
  codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:
   Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 
  
  probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
  establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
  last child is reaped ... 100 lines?
 
 I think the key word in Paul's question was "transactions".
 In other words, you have more than one database, possibly
 in different physical (and network) locations, and you need
 to perform a transaction - an _atomic_ transaction - across
 several of them.
 
 No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
 or fail completely.

eval {
$fulfillment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
$payment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
do_the_payment_thing($payment_dbh);
do_the_fulfillment_thing($fulfillment_dbh);
$payment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
$fulfillment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
}
if $@ {
$fulfillment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
$payment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
}

Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail. And
I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Robin Szemeti wrote:
  
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
   On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
   
I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell.
   
I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
  
   Since excellent regex libraries are freely available,
  
  like I said.. as far as i can tell .. which maybe not very far :)
  
  so .. enlighten me .. how would you go about using regexes in Java?
 
 No idea, I just play with it occassionaly to get my head round what's
 going on, after 5 minutes I realise that if I'd been using perl I'd had
 finished by now.  This is not "an experienced programmer developes
 faster in their language of choice", but the fact that to do it in jave
 takes loads more code!
 
 I was recently asked how to do substition in strings in ASP - thank the
 lord for regex'es.

Install ActiveState's PerlScript stuff, use Perl as your ASP language.
Problem solved...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Piers Cawley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  Hmm... Given that big business seems to have bought some of the ideas
  of 'Just In Time' stock holding and delivery type stuff, maybe the
  time has come to start pushing Perl and open source programming as
  being 'Just In Time Development'.
  
 
 I'm not sure this is a good image for Perl, we want to get away
 from the last minute solution image.

I'm sure I don't agree with you. If your solution isn't ready (and
tested and all that stuff) at the last minute and no earlier then you
should be using the spare time generated to make the solution better,
right up until the last minute.

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   * Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
Fuck it. Let's do it.
  
  Firstly, mod_perl passim.
  
   Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
   to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already
  
  TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
  different styles. How can you evaluate this?
  
 
 it doesn't matter how they achieve most things, as long as they can
 do them ... reasonably
 
   have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can
  
  Please share this
  
 
 it's too late tonight, i'll try and remember tommorow, the plan is more 
 how to get it organised and do all the dull procedural stuff quickly
 
 the actual content is up for debate, although i think levels of
 perl `skillz' would suck, i'd much rather see a ``core'' perl certification,
 and slowly secondary skill certifications being developed and registered,
 however at launch, probably WWW and DBI spring to mind as two
 secondary ones that will be there from the word go - however they will be 
 focused quite tightly on their areas

Start with Core Perl, covers the basics of being able to program in
Perl. Maybe an add on for OO Concepts in Perl.

Certifications should be competency based rather than being 'complete
this course, here's your certificate, which leads to problems of
qualifying as an assessor, but it's worth worrying about.

Once we know what the competencies required for a given certification
are, then the various training houses can come up with training
material and assessment services to help people reach that level of
certification. 

Gill's got a good deal of experience in dealing with Competency based
qualifications... 

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 21:24 28/03/2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
   problems with Perl work in london,
 
 Are employers there too stupid to read CVs? Or too lazy? Or is
 there some other benefit certification bestows besides having you
 laughed at in the pub because you ("one", not personally of course :)
 automatically rank alongst all those other "paper" Perl programmers?
 
 http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
 strong.
 
 And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer
 in London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just
 started charging for tests.

Do they still claim that I'm the best perl programmer in the UK? If so
it's completely bloody surreal...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 sorry, was unclear. robert proposed a meta-certification body which then
 gave the tests out to certifiers (netthink, iterative etc). this seems to
 me to be far too complicated and fragmented.

i think it was me that suggested this

 
 i think you need a single organisation which plays the difficult balancing
 act of:
 
   * being respected and trusted by the Perl community (there's no
   point if the Perl decision makers poo poo it)

hence the limitation to UK  ROI

   * has enough autonomy from the Perl community or transparency to
   not be perceived as a guild / closed shop (this accusation could
   be levelled very easily if the exam were perceived to be designed so that
   only an inner sanctum could possibly pass it)

it will be aimed at a base level, as i said earlier it at least initially
will not even consider skill levels, but just competency sections

   * has rich enough grading so that mere mortals can achieve some

i dont think it will be graded

 * being commercial - particularly focused on marketing the PCSE
   logo to training companies, logos and IT directors. I don't
   think a voluntary, well-meaning effort will achieve this. 

nope, i don't agree here - i don't think this is easy but their is
precedent, YAPC::*

anyway i'm posting a proposal in a few mins


Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dave Cross

At 29 Mar 2001 11:43:59 +0100, Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

   http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
  strong.
  
  And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer
  in London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just
  started charging for tests.
 
 Do they still claim that I'm the best perl programmer in the UK? If so
 it's completely bloody surreal...

According to brainbench, this is a list of the 1o best Perl programmers
in the UK. How many names do _you_ recognise?

4.82 Piers Cawley 
4.71 Matthew Robinson 
4.67 Rob Partington 
4.66 Dave Cross 
4.61 Steve Keay 
4.6 Ben Bell 
4.53 David Bloomfield 
4.49 Christof Damian 
4.46 Nick Cleaton 
4.46 Maurice Buxton 

Dave...




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

Greg Cope wrote:
 I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects 
 where given to lots of programmers, the usualy results were
 show i.e algorythm design was the most important factor,
 although on the whole scripting langauges were faster to
 develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and lower memory
 footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
 the URL.

You may be looking for this:

http://wwwipd.ira.uka.de/~prechelt/Biblio/jccpprtTR.pdf
An empirical comparison of C, C++, Java, Perl, Python, Rexx, and Tcl for a
search/string-processing program

Or google for "empirical comparison Python Rexx program" for a few
references.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

Paul Makepeace wrote:
 Can you trivially embed a perl network application in a browser?
[snip]
 Java's favour is not *entirely* due to massive marketing pimpery.

Java support in browsers didn't magically come because Microsoft and
Netscape said "Hey, let's develop a Java plug-in for our browser".

Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
3.0?

I'd say that's marketing and not something built-in. You want client-side
Perl, you have ActiveState's PerlScript. What, nobody has a client for it?
Well, lack of marketing.

I think there was even a Tcl plugin for Netscape that nobody used. Probably
not because of merit or lack thereof, but just because it wasn't hyped
enough, and/or didn't ship as standard with a major browser.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Paul Mison

On 29/03/2001 at 11:56 +0100, Philip Newton wrote:

Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
3.0?

Netscape 2 had Java built in, around the turn of 95/96. HotJava was
also about but that (understandably) died around the same time. I
*think* IE3 also did Java, about May '96.

mutter bias="Oven"anyway, most client side interaction seems to be
done with Flash anyway/mutter

--
:: paul
:: this world's crazy, give me the gun





Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 * Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  IMHO to be of any use certification needs to be HUGE .. eg we need
  O'Reilly AND Manning behind it or it simply won't fly. We could write a
 
 i think this will end up a slow process

umm .. so long as you have a benevolent dictator at the top its not that
slow... :) .. you are hereby elected benevolent dictator :)))

  very comprehensive set of tests and assesment levels, do all that. It
  could be the very best thought out, standards based certification for
  Perl out there .. but without a Major Backer (eg the two afore mentioned
  companies) its nothing ... 
 
 that can wait - stage a. is all that is important for now
 
  a) Fuck it, Just do it .. ( so thats got the ball rolling)
  b) get some other groups (eg NY.pm ) involved to get the support of the
  Perl community at large
 
 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

he did ? ... ?? ... dunno..  if its ever going to get there at a
corporate level we need this.

whos is the head perl advocacy bod/guru whatever .. surely someone should
speak to them at some point too ..preferably sooner than later?

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Robin Houston

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:32:57AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 
 Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail.

That's exactly the problem. And what if you crash after the
first COMMIT?

This is not an easy problem. The usual solution is
called "two-phase commit". See
http://www.sei.cmu.edu/str/descriptions/dtpc.html
for example.

 And I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...

It's not a language issue per se.
J2EE is (a lot!) more than just the Java language.

http://www.subrahmanyam.com/articles/jts/JTS.html

 .robin.

-- 
"Do nine men interpret?" "Nine men," I nod. 



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Roger Burton West wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:44:04AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:

 4.46 Nick Cleaton

 Ought to be on here, ask Gellyfish...


He heh

Look what they say I got :

Total Tests Completed  41233
Your Rank (1 = top) 40653
Your Percentile (99 = top): 1

Ah - See, you have to put in the score 

/J\






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

Philip Newton wrote:
 
 Greg Cope wrote:
  I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects
  where given to lots of programmers, the usualy results were
  show i.e algorythm design was the most important factor,
  although on the whole scripting langauges were faster to
  develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and lower memory
  footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
  the URL.
 
 You may be looking for this:
 
 http://wwwipd.ira.uka.de/~prechelt/Biblio/jccpprtTR.pdf
 An empirical comparison of C, C++, Java, Perl, Python, Rexx, and Tcl for a
 search/string-processing program
 

That looks the ticket

ta.

Greg

 Or google for "empirical comparison Python Rexx program" for a few
 references.
 
 Cheers,
 Philip
 --
 Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
 If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Tony Bowden

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
 Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
 they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
 forum/organisation does this)

Somehow I doubt that the company still known as BlackStar will be that
interested.

I may be interested in being involved from a different perspective
though 

Tony
-- 
--
 Tony Bowden | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.tmtm.com/
 we barely have time to react in this world let alone rehearse
--



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread pmh

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:17:17 +0100 (BST), Mark Fowler wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
 
  You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
  it today.

Actually, that message was OK.


 Your webmail CC is screwed up too.  On my mails there's now new line after
 the Cc: so I get a line that says 
 
 Cc: X-Mailer: foo 
 
 which my mail client (PINE) wants to reply to...

That's a bug in PINE, then. There is actually a newline after Cc:, but like some other 
parsers (including an early version of mine), PINE can't cope with an empty field.

MIME::Parser does something strange, too: with empty fields, -get_all returns either 
('') or (undef) (I can't remember which), but with non-empty fields, -get_all returns 
the contents with newlines intact, confusing things immensely for formatting code.

-- 
Peter Haworth   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"My own writing [...] is of such high quality that it's almost a new media in
 itself. There is writing, and there is My Writing. UltraWriting. Writing++.
 Object-orientated writing with full pre-emptive multi-tasking running at
 1000 rpm with a 20ms seek time, at a reasonable price (credit available)."
-- Ashley Pomeroy



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

It would be nice to get his backing, but I think that to do that we would
have to get a system working, and then show him that the certification is
in fact meaningful and not Just Another String Of Letters.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
  Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
  (or something similar)
 
 It would be nice to get his backing, but I think that to do that we would
 have to get a system working, and then show him that the certification is
 in fact meaningful and not Just Another String Of Letters.
 

the main priority, is to get the thing set up, everything else is
secondary.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:32:57AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
  or fail completely.

 Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail. And
 I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...
 
 eval {
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
 $payment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
 do_the_payment_thing($payment_dbh);
 do_the_fulfillment_thing($fulfillment_dbh);
 $payment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("COMMIT");

That is not atomic.  You need to do both COMMITs as one operation.

 }

At this point, your process dies horribly.

 if $@ {
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");

Or for more fun, die horribly here instead.

 $payment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
 }

You need the rdbms to do the rollback itself if the commit fails, or if
a connection times out after a BEGIN TRANSACTION and without a COMMIT
occurring.  You need some way of getting the two systems talking to
each other so that they can synchronise the BEGIN TRANSACTIONs and the
COMMITs.  Ouch.

Can someone remind me why I don't do financial work any more?  Oh yeah :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Chris Devers

At 04:42 AM 29.3.2001 -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 O'Reilly wil like it cos they get to sell 'Perl For PCSE(stage 1)' 
 etc ..

Ooh. I think you've just given me an idea for my next book :)

"Gary Numan's guide to the PCSE"... 

;)




--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Tony Bowden wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:07:01PM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
  4.46 Nick Cleaton
  4.46 Maurice Buxton
  Coo, I'm on 4.46 as well.

 Me four.

 Although they seem to have lost my score.

 I have a nice shiny certificate though ...


Nick say's he has a nice shiny certificate as well - I have one 'Saying
Certified Perl Master' but they appear to have lost my score - it was
about tow years ago I took the test 

I took the free Korn Shell one and got 3.85 just before lunch which was
pretty impressive as I was beginning to get impatient after about 15 out
of 40 questions.

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:33:59AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Have you thought about charging structures, SAP charge about 300gbp to take
  a certification exam, and they offer courses that are specifically designed
 
 i had thought about a 20 quid fee to be sent to YAS

I think (although I'm not sure) Greg sees the plan working the same way as
I do: we (the various trainers involved) provide training courses at our
usual rates which *prepare* the student to take an exam for a nominal fee
to gain accreditation. (ie, training courses don't include or substitute
for the exam.)

-- 
FAILURE:
When Your Best Just Isn't Good Enough

http://www.despair.com



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

Bzzt. That was to do with ANSI certification.

-- 
"You can have my Unix system when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers."



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David H. Adler

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:00:46PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Tony Bowden wrote:
 
  On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:07:01PM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
   4.46 Nick Cleaton
   4.46 Maurice Buxton
   Coo, I'm on 4.46 as well.
 
  Me four.
 
  Although they seem to have lost my score.
 
  I have a nice shiny certificate though ...
 
 
 Nick say's he has a nice shiny certificate as well - I have one 'Saying
 Certified Perl Master' but they appear to have lost my score - it was
 about tow years ago I took the test 

I'm a Certified Perl Druid.  I outrank you. :-)

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
For the Forth aficionados reading this column, I offer my idea of the
ideal bumper sticker:  "YOU FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN."
 - Chip Salzenberg, in The Perl Journal #12



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread alex


easier said than done - it's a lot easier to hire good people than
convince clients that perl is the way forward - i may be wrong but i think
there are less and less big Perl projects out there available to perl
consultancies.  once you get to a particular price bracket (necessary to
afford and retain uber perl hackers) people start wanting to hear the
corporate technology buzzwords - j2ee, open market, bea, sap, siebel etc

this is just my 2p - please appreciate that i would love the situation to
be different (ie people queueing up for solutions using open source
methods - particulary perl) but i don't think that is the market
situation. 

alex

On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 y* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 11:41:33PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
Just to let you all know I'm on the market again.
Me too.
   er.. and me. 
  
  Who was it that was saying that the contract market was great just now?
  
 
 i think it was me, i dont want to go into this too much, but i think
 that a general perl consultancy (you know who you are) can take these
 guys, be very clever at marketting yourselves and prosper
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, alex wrote:

 
 easier said than done - it's a lot easier to hire good people than
 convince clients that perl is the way forward - i may be wrong but i think
 there are less and less big Perl projects out there available to perl
 consultancies.  once you get to a particular price bracket (necessary to
 afford and retain uber perl hackers) people start wanting to hear the
 corporate technology buzzwords - j2ee, open market, bea, sap, siebel etc

This does appear to be true, mind you many companies are recruiting perl
developers for themselves. This is healthy. I think a lot of companies see
j2ee, weblogic, etc as 'safe' despite quite catastrophic failures and the
high cost (the price of a consultant or contractor for any of these buzz
technologies is 2 or 3 times the price for less trendy technologies).

I think java is likely to be associated with a load of spectacular
failures. I don't think any project has failed because of cost or flaws in
perl, and major companies are migrating towards perl and oss in
general. many vendors like weblogic are claiming sites liek amazon use
technology when they have migrated to perl.

perhaps its time to beat these vendors at their own game with a list of
their clients who have migrated.
 
A.


-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Mark Fowler wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Aaron Trevena wrote:
  I think java is likely to be associated with a load of spectacular
  failures. 
 To be fair, most of these won't be Java's fault.  It's just that Java is

No, they'll be the vendor JVM's fault. :)

 the first choice of someone who is going on buzzwords, and hasn't really
 thought about the technical issues involved.

True.

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it. -- Mae West




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 I think its partially the vendors fault - they are pushing java as a
 solution for things it clearly isn't right for.
 

out of curiousity - such as (i.e. which vendors are pushing java for
inappropriate problem sapces)? 

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:16:07PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 
 I'd also add that Java, to my eyes, seems dreadfully uncooperative. Is it
 really as hard as it seems to get a non Java program to talk to j2ee stuff?
 Or is it all just part of the Java marketing? Is it me or is COM actually
 way easier to use than CORBA?

The "J2EE platform" consists of so many disparate technologies
that it's very hard to generalise about it. It's quite easy
to get a non-Java program to talk to an HTTP servlet, for
example :-)

Which parts of J2EE tend to get used the most in enterprise
environments? Anyone got any ideas/experience?

Presumably most people build solutions around e.g. weblogic,
rather than doing everything from raw ingredients.

 .robin.

-- 
"You are bound to be in a state of mental unrest, even turmoil.
 And of course there can be no inner peace: be proud of it!"



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  I think its partially the vendors fault - they are pushing java as a
  solution for things it clearly isn't right for.
  
 
 out of curiousity - such as (i.e. which vendors are pushing java for
 inappropriate problem sapces)? 

Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
e-commerce, plain and simple.

Accounting, some business processes map well to java but not all and
certainly not anything involving parsing and suchlike of any kind.

I don't think java is suitable for client/server systems either - having
both written and used java client/server apps, the networking classes in
1.2 and 1.3 suck badly and make the code long, slow and unclear.

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
 ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating tons of
 noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.

Wait until TPC.

-- 
Thus spake the master programmer:
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless."
-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:34:41 +0100, Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
  ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating 
  tons of noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.
 
 Wait until TPC.

Sounds interesting. Care to elucidate?



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Piers Cawley

"Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 The recent .com crash has had many desirable effects as well as undesirable
 ones, and one of these is the devaluation in hype in .com related
 technologies. An awful lot of the value of the big packages is based on
 future value - "You don't need this software today, but you will in a year's
 time so buy it today and you'll be ahead of the competition and able to
 scale up fast when the orders start pouring in!". This doesn't carry much
 weight anymore.

Hmm... Given that big business seems to have bought some of the ideas
of 'Just In Time' stock holding and delivery type stuff, maybe the
time has come to start pushing Perl and open source programming as
being 'Just In Time Development'.

[FX: Makes note in the 'you really should turn this into some real
marketing literature' file.]

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Philip Newton

Dominic Mitchell wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:08:59PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
  Discuss.
 
 s/fuck|tits|arse//;

Nonono. You want reusable components so you don't end up reinventing the
wheel, badly.

use Regexp::Common 'clean';  # don't muck with my $,

s/$RE{profanity}//g;

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



JOB: non-london

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

I happen to know of a nice perl / linux admin gig in the midlands if
anyone wants it ...

mail me offlist if you would be so kind.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



RE: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread alex


i'm not sure this does cut both ways - if what you are saying is correct -
then java's dominance becomes even more of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

i don't think it's the corporates themselves who are making all the noise
about java - it's an aggressive sun PR department which is latching on to
corporate java projects and then turning these into "case studies". 

basically, no matter how much good-natured perl advocacy there is out
there - it's always going to be very hard to influence corporate decision
makers when you are up against an army of buzzword technology salaried PR
departments. 

i think the difference between Linux and Perl is relevant. Linux has been
adopted by big hardware manufacturers in an effort to challenge M$
dominance. Linux is therefore gaining credibility in corporateland (though
the jury is definitely out). The same cannot be said of Perl. Until a
corporate puts marketing muscle behind it (highly unlikely) people will
perceive it as a hacker technology.

alex

ps whoever raised the issue of opex/capex - openness: the more people i
talk to nowadays about selling consultancy work - the more i hear people
wanting product and support - not bespoke solutions. people out there have
different notions of openness: they would prefer to be in hock to a brand
name technology company (eg Open Market) than a consultancy with an exotic
skillset (which does actually make some sense).

 
 One thing to remember is that the hype cuts two ways. We may read in a
 magazine of ten projects using Java, and none using Perl, but that is as
 much because the companies that are using Perl don't bother sending press
 releases to everyone than it is because no one is using Perl.
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dean S Wilson

Original Message-
From: Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
 ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating
tons of
 noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.

Wait until TPC.


Ahh come on! We need more than that! :)

Where are all the things like Perl advocacy, PR, Business Awareness
and non-technical expansion plans for the language discussed?

Dean
--
Perl coder in a sea of PHP.




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