Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:56:37PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
 Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
 3.0?

Lynx  Mosaic practically don't exist, demographically speaking.

 I'd say that's marketing and not something built-in. You want client-side
 Perl, you have ActiveState's PerlScript. What, nobody has a client for it?
 Well, lack of marketing.

Or lack of out-of-the-box installation.

 I think there was even a Tcl plugin for Netscape that nobody used. Probably
 not because of merit or lack thereof, but just because it wasn't hyped
 enough, and/or didn't ship as standard with a major browser.

Because Tcl is shit, shurely.

In any case, the point is there is lots of stuff Java can do Perl
can't, for practical, ease of use -centric values of "can't".

Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Simon Wistow

Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
 IMHO to be of any use certification needs to be HUGE .. eg we need
 O'Reilly AND Manning behind it or it simply won't fly. We could write a
 very comprehensive set of tests and assesment levels, do all that. 

The theory driving test in this country was doen by getting driving
instructors/examiners to send in questiosn and then they assesed them
and stuck them in the question pool. Perhaps something like that might
be in order - get peeps to send in questions and then get 'editors' to
grade them from 0 (silly/rejected) to 5 (damnably hard Deep Perl
Wizadry).



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread David Cantrell

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:03:14AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:56:37PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
  Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
  3.0?
 
 Lynx  Mosaic practically don't exist, demographically speaking.

But things like Avantgo - which are getting more and more users all the
time - have pretty much the same capabilities as a text-only browser.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:33:59AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  * Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   Have you thought about charging structures, SAP charge about 300gbp to take
   a certification exam, and they offer courses that are specifically designed
  
  i had thought about a 20 quid fee to be sent to YAS
 
 I think (although I'm not sure) Greg sees the plan working the same way as
 I do: we (the various trainers involved) provide training courses at our
 usual rates which *prepare* the student to take an exam for a nominal fee
 to gain accreditation. (ie, training courses don't include or substitute
 for the exam.)

yip and you build in, a little 10 or 20 quid donation to YAS for
everyone done, however this would probably be voluntary or some
such - i dont really know. but if you are doing a training course
that cost 500+ to attend, 10 or 20 seems reasonable.

but as i said , i really dont know yet.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Chris Benson

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:03:14AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:56:37PM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
  Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
  3.0?
 
 Lynx  Mosaic practically don't exist, demographically speaking.

Bzzzt!  Lynx doesn't exist *in*the*logs* because a Lynx user d/loads
one page sees that the company is basically saying "FUCK OFF I DON'T
WANT YOUR BUSINESS" and never comes back.

Whereas Nescape/IE d/loads 500 separate line segments, icons,
title-bars, tool-bars, spinning logos and other crap and instantly become
"demographic-leaders".

Mmmm, I think I better chill-out a bit.
-- 
Chris Benson -- Lynx user when I can,  Netscape for the crap.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Simon Cozens

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 09:13:16PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 yip and you build in, a little 10 or 20 quid donation to YAS for
 everyone done, however this would probably be voluntary or some
 such - i dont really know. but if you are doing a training course
 that cost 500+ to attend, 10 or 20 seems reasonable.

I like that. "10% of the fees from this course will be donated to
Yet Another Society." Hmph. I s'pose I'd better join Yet Another
Mailing List. :)

-- 
"Darkly hinting of head hitting desk" 
-- Megahal (trained on asr), 1998-11-05



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-30 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 11:50:57AM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
 But things like Avantgo - which are getting more and more users all the
 time - have pretty much the same capabilities as a text-only browser.

From a display point of view, yes, but they certainly have the
capability to run a JVM (J2ME -- micro edition). Right now there
isn't much call for it but there will be (IMO) with wireless services.

Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 is it? ... sure you don't mean 'the database used by most large
 corporates for e-commerce' ? I know nothing about the spread of spend
 between the large coprporations and the small 5 dollar outfits .. but
 theres a hell of a lot of small guys out there, running MySQL and
 postgres ... maybe in spend oracle wins, but in sheer numbers of
 transaction the other 2 proabably have the upper hand

Foul!

You mentioned MySQL and transactions together.   :-)

-Dom (and no, layering db3 underneath doesn't count)



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be without
a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up with someone
like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses to "PCSE"
standards) this might be a big winner.

alex

ps i only mention learning tree because they're a company people know of
OUTSIDE the Perl community.

ps2 PCSE - Perl Certified Software Engineer? lack of imagination?


 
 I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
 NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
 make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
 wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
 argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
 
 This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
 can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
 then we can achieve something. 
 
 I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
 Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
 they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
 forum/organisation does this)
 
 I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
 the wider stage, but ho hum.
 
 Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross 
 (with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
 Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.
 
 Greg
 
 
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be without
 a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up with someone
 like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses to "PCSE"
 standards) this might be a big winner.
 

Well i was hoping on getting an initial commitment of people
to sign up to it from the list, they would effectively join
some `forum' under YAS, they would sign up to some fairly
trivial commitments (e.g. employers would `recognise' the
qualification). Then we'd figure out the first 3 skill areas.

This would leave us with some content and a body. At this point
hopefully people could take the test and we could then move
on to evangelise it with people like learning tree.

The important thing from my POV is that its not learning tree
from day one, as they will simply want to say - taking learning
tree course Perl101 means people get core competency and it
would become the usual noddy thing. Involving them later when
the forum was established would give them slightly less
clout.

This is of course, imho.

Greg


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
 Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
 different types of table for some reason.

It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
operation, hash, btree and recno.

I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
on 2nd hand evidence.

-Dom



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
  On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:10:00PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
   e-commerce, plain and simple.

gartuitous snippage
 
 no .. it _does_ have its strong points .. I wouldn't have even
 bought a  book if i thought it was really bad .. but it just seems to
 make some things so hard to do.  Mybe its just me being crap. I'd be
 intrested to set a good perl programmer and a Java guy head to head ..
 get em to build an app to the same spec and see how long they took, and
 then get them to extend it in some way and time that ..


I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects where given
to lots of programmers, the usualy results were show i.e algorythm
design was the most important factor, although on the whole scripting
langauges were faster to develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and
lower memory footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
the URL.

Greg
 
 don't get me wrong .. I'm not just Java bashing .. but really, the hype
 it gets would have you believe its all tings to all men .. in reallity
 its got good points, but some big holes too ...
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti
 
 The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
 So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 03:55:57AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:51:46 +0100 (BST), alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  ps2 PCSE - Perl Certified Software Engineer? lack of imagination?
 
 Shouldn't that be CPH for "Certified Perl Hacker" or is that missing 
 the point?

Certified Perl Regular would be far more amusing.

"Dammit, get me a CPR!"

-Dom



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


depends what you want from the exercise - if you are a perl shop and want
to know how good applicants are then, yes, CPH (but if you're a perl shop
you can pretty quickly determine how good people are anyway). so, i can't 
really see the point in this. 

i think it should sound like a professional certification a la MCSE simply
to address corporate criticisms that this is a hackers only language with
no certification.

i think the whole initiative should be more about making Perl be taken
more seriously OUTSIDE the community. 

alex

 
 Shouldn't that be CPH for "Certified Perl Hacker" or is that missing 
 the point?
 
 Dave...
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:51:46 +0100 (BST), alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  i am a little unclear what the benefits of this exercise might be
  without a brand or larger player backing it up. if we could hook up
  with someone like learning tree (eg they can claim to deliver courses
  to "PCSE" standards) this might be a big winner.

 It's a fair point. But do Learning Tree have a good reputation in the
 marketplace? I'm not sure they do.


I categorically refused yesterday to allow any of out people to be sent on
a Learning Tree Perl course ...

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 The important thing from my POV is that its not learning tree
 from day one, as they will simply want to say - taking learning
 tree course Perl101 means people get core competency and it
 would become the usual noddy thing. Involving them later when
 the forum was established would give them slightly less
 clout.


Absolutely right.  To bring Learning Tree (or any other Commercial
Training House ) would mean we would prbably be compelled to go along with
what they already teach - which may or may not be any good as far as we
are concerned - after all they have a whole bunch invested in training
materials and existing trainers which they are not going to give up easily
...


Possibly a first step would be to work out how to certify the certifiers
as it were ...


/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread James Powell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:59:35AM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
  Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
  different types of table for some reason.
 
 It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
 DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
 operation, hash, btree and recno.
 
 I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
 across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
 of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
 on 2nd hand evidence.
 
 -Dom

But as well as Berkeley there's innobase and gemini (not in yet?)
table types that support transactions.
http://www.mysql.com/documentation/mysql/bychapter/manual_Table_types.html

I can't say I've used any of them or would trust any of them...

And MySQL has got full-text indexing now - didn't notice that one

http://www.mysql.com/news/article-54.html
"MySQL 3.23 now has full-text indexing and searching capabilities. This
allows you to search your vast databases of
textual information, with queries returning search string
occurrence/relevance."


Incidentally, saw your ssh letter in the new LJ...

jp



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Mark Fowler

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

  Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
  problems with Perl work in london,
 
 Are employers there too stupid to read CVs? Or too lazy?

I'm too lazy.  Speaking as someone who has recently spent a while vetting
CVs for people for a job, it's hell.  For a experienced perl programmer
it's easier for me to tell if you've had the experience by what jobs you've
done before.  For a mid range programmer (who may have only worked at one
company before) it's really hard.

CVs are the first step through the door.  I'm just trying to assess if
you're good enough to have in for an interview.  That's where I, and my
boss, and probably my bosses boss will actually make the decision.  A
certification system I could trust would be really helpful.  It would save
so much time trying to get rid of the guy that came in and said 'I don't
use modules, I prefer to write my own code in the script.' et al.

Later.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 IMHO to be of any use certification needs to be HUGE .. eg we need
 O'Reilly AND Manning behind it or it simply won't fly. We could write a

i think this will end up a slow process

 very comprehensive set of tests and assesment levels, do all that. It
 could be the very best thought out, standards based certification for
 Perl out there .. but without a Major Backer (eg the two afore mentioned
 companies) its nothing ... 

that can wait - stage a. is all that is important for now

 a) Fuck it, Just do it .. ( so thats got the ball rolling)
 b) get some other groups (eg NY.pm ) involved to get the support of the
 Perl community at large

ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
(or something similar)

Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 that's not the point. 
 
 if learning tree design a course (with the community's approval
 natch) that is of sufficient standard and then put on their catalogs:
 
 Advanced Perl (3 days) - 1750 GBP + VAT
 
   [preparation for PCSE exam]  with a nice logo 
 
 imagine the value of free publicity that is coming out of that! None of
 the organisations mentioned (netthink, iterative, or indeed codix) have
 anything like the clout individually or collectively to start getting a
 PCSE logo recognisable to IT directors.
 

yip its great, but you can't get there on day #1

 BTW, just so we're clear - i was thinking of another org to actually do
 the certification. Maybe a privately owned company formed from the
 london.pm membership.
 

YAS can probably take care of this, i mailed Kevin last night, but
havent heard back yet

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

James Powell wrote:
 
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:59:35AM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
  On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:56:36AM +0100, James Powell wrote:
   Course, mysql does support transactions now... I believe with two
   different types of table for some reason.
 
  It's because the underlying table type is implemented using Berkeley
  DB3, which does support transactions.  And that has several modes of
  operation, hash, btree and recno.
 
  I haven't looked into it, but I would imagine that it makes transactions
  across different tables kind of tricky.  In fact, I'd class it as a bit
  of a hack.  But don't take my opinion for it, because this is all based
  on 2nd hand evidence.
 
  -Dom
 
 But as well as Berkeley there's innobase and gemini (not in yet?)
 table types that support transactions.
 http://www.mysql.com/documentation/mysql/bychapter/manual_Table_types.html
 
 I can't say I've used any of them or would trust any of them...

I've tested innobase and it appears to be fine.  It very Oracle like in
the way it works (it needs loasd of resources to run quickly).  MyISAM
table handlers for speed and Innobase table handlers for transaction
based tables (also with row locking) and you should be away.  (The
Innobase code is apparently not new, and has been taken from another
project and bolted on, which sounds bad but actually appears to work
quite well).

Greg

 
 And MySQL has got full-text indexing now - didn't notice that one
 
 http://www.mysql.com/news/article-54.html
 "MySQL 3.23 now has full-text indexing and searching capabilities. This
 allows you to search your vast databases of
 textual information, with queries returning search string
 occurrence/relevance."
 
 Incidentally, saw your ssh letter in the new LJ...
 
 jp



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Have you thought about charging structures, SAP charge about 300gbp to take
 a certification exam, and they offer courses that are specifically designed

i had thought about a 20 quid fee to be sent to YAS

 to help you pass, which culminate in taking the exam itself. And if you are
 collecting money and giving out qualifications, have you decided what
 company should be doing it. And you'll need some way to say that the
 certifiers are certified to do this anyway, otherwise the certification
 won't be worth much.

i have some ideas about this, i think i mentioned it in a seperate email


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?

alex

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:

  I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
  of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
  this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
  certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
  of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
  from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
  for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
  the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
  they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
  This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
  is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
  were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
  of the recipients of the test.
 
 
 As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
 multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
 
 /Robert
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll


what robert describes or what i describe?

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
 responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
 would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?
 
 alex
 
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:
   I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
   of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
   this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
   certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
   of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
   from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
   for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
   the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
   they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
   This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
   is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
   were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
   of the recipients of the test.
  
  
  As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
  multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
  
  /Robert
  
  
 
 -- 
 
 alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
 director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
 codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   
-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:08:44 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 08:02:39 -0500 (EST), Dave Cross wrote:
  At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:34:41 +0100, Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
   Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 But look at your headers:
  References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
 Where's [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave?

You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
it today.

Dave...
[who handily has his copy of "Programming Internet Email" on his desk]



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread Mark Fowler

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
 it today.

Your webmail CC is screwed up too.  On my mails there's now new line after
the Cc: so I get a line that says 

Cc: X-Mailer: foo 

which my mail client (PINE) wants to reply to...

Later.

Mark.

-- 
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
   Name  = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer'  ,
   Firm  = 'Profero Ltd',Web   = 'http://www.profero.com/'   ,
   Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]',   Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960'  )








RE: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Peterson

  Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
  to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already

 TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
 different styles. How can you evaluate this?

I don't think it's a huge problem. For a start, certification can be
multiple choice, which eliminates the need to deal with correct answers in
esoteric style. (shamless plug for my amazing perltest project -
http://www.snowdrift.org/computers/perl/pt/)

Secondly, there is absolutely not reason why the certification can't agree
on a compulsory style. This is what happens in driving tests. There is more
than one way to turn the steering wheel, from suicide spinner to hand over
hand, but the driving certification declares that shuffling (or whatever
it's called) is the 'correct way'. No-one actually believes that you're a
dangerous driver if you use one of the other methods in some situations, and
it all works OK.

Thirdly, IMO certification is more about establishing that the candidate
doesn't do stupid things than that they are very clever. The driving test
only seeks to establish that you've read the highway code, and can get from
A to B without screwing up.

Likewise Perl certification should seek to show that a candidate has RTFM'd
and get get from A to B without screwing up, for various values of A and B .


 If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
 consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

Most _people_ consider MCSEs a useful way of gauge a minimum standard of
knowledge in prospective employees. Most professional system engineers and
programers may feel differently.




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread alex


sorry, was unclear. robert proposed a meta-certification body which then
gave the tests out to certifiers (netthink, iterative etc). this seems to
me to be far too complicated and fragmented.

i think you need a single organisation which plays the difficult balancing
act of:

* being respected and trusted by the Perl community (there's no
  point if the Perl decision makers poo poo it)
* has enough autonomy from the Perl community or transparency to
  not be perceived as a guild / closed shop (this accusation could
  be levelled very easily if the exam were perceived to be designed so that
  only an inner sanctum could possibly pass it)
* has rich enough grading so that mere mortals can achieve some
  level of certification and gurus can also be recognised  - i
  think it is in everyone's interests if lots of new people pass PCSE 
  at some level (i think there is a strong perception that Perl skills 
  are hard to find)
* being commercial - particularly focused on marketing the PCSE
  logo to training companies, logos and IT directors. I don't
  think a voluntary, well-meaning effort will achieve this. 

alex

 
 * alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  you don't think having a single body with london.pm representation whose
  responsibilities would be exam delivery, assessment and certificaiton
  would be more efficient/effective than what you describe?
  
  alex
  
  On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Robert Shiels wrote:
I think a lot of this will be about signing up to a charter or code
of conduct. What we will need is an actual exam, i was thinking about
this last night, and my thoughts were to write a web interface were
certified certifiers could request 10 tests, by filling the names
of the recipients in first. Then a script would select questions
from a database of categorised questions and make up a PDF seperately
for each of the recipients, the certifier would then supervise
the recipient completing the test in the allotted time and afterwards
they would mark it and return it (original hardcopy) to the main body.
This main body may check one or two, more to ensure that their
is consistency across certifiers, and assuming that the tests
were all fine, the certifier would get a nice shiny PDF for each
of the recipients of the test.
   
   
   As TIMTOWTDI in Perl, marking could be extremely difficult unless we have
   multiple choice questions. Is MSCS multiple choice? SAP is.
   
   /Robert
   
   
  
  -- 
  
  alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
  director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
  codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:
   Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 
  
  probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
  establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
  last child is reaped ... 100 lines?
 
 I think the key word in Paul's question was "transactions".
 In other words, you have more than one database, possibly
 in different physical (and network) locations, and you need
 to perform a transaction - an _atomic_ transaction - across
 several of them.
 
 No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
 or fail completely.

eval {
$fulfillment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
$payment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
do_the_payment_thing($payment_dbh);
do_the_fulfillment_thing($fulfillment_dbh);
$payment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
$fulfillment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
}
if $@ {
$fulfillment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
$payment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
}

Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail. And
I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg Cope [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Robin Szemeti wrote:
  
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
   On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
   
I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell.
   
I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
  
   Since excellent regex libraries are freely available,
  
  like I said.. as far as i can tell .. which maybe not very far :)
  
  so .. enlighten me .. how would you go about using regexes in Java?
 
 No idea, I just play with it occassionaly to get my head round what's
 going on, after 5 minutes I realise that if I'd been using perl I'd had
 finished by now.  This is not "an experienced programmer developes
 faster in their language of choice", but the fact that to do it in jave
 takes loads more code!
 
 I was recently asked how to do substition in strings in ASP - thank the
 lord for regex'es.

Install ActiveState's PerlScript stuff, use Perl as your ASP language.
Problem solved...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Piers Cawley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  Hmm... Given that big business seems to have bought some of the ideas
  of 'Just In Time' stock holding and delivery type stuff, maybe the
  time has come to start pushing Perl and open source programming as
  being 'Just In Time Development'.
  
 
 I'm not sure this is a good image for Perl, we want to get away
 from the last minute solution image.

I'm sure I don't agree with you. If your solution isn't ready (and
tested and all that stuff) at the last minute and no earlier then you
should be using the spare time generated to make the solution better,
right up until the last minute.

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   * Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
Fuck it. Let's do it.
  
  Firstly, mod_perl passim.
  
   Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
   to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already
  
  TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
  different styles. How can you evaluate this?
  
 
 it doesn't matter how they achieve most things, as long as they can
 do them ... reasonably
 
   have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can
  
  Please share this
  
 
 it's too late tonight, i'll try and remember tommorow, the plan is more 
 how to get it organised and do all the dull procedural stuff quickly
 
 the actual content is up for debate, although i think levels of
 perl `skillz' would suck, i'd much rather see a ``core'' perl certification,
 and slowly secondary skill certifications being developed and registered,
 however at launch, probably WWW and DBI spring to mind as two
 secondary ones that will be there from the word go - however they will be 
 focused quite tightly on their areas

Start with Core Perl, covers the basics of being able to program in
Perl. Maybe an add on for OO Concepts in Perl.

Certifications should be competency based rather than being 'complete
this course, here's your certificate, which leads to problems of
qualifying as an assessor, but it's worth worrying about.

Once we know what the competencies required for a given certification
are, then the various training houses can come up with training
material and assessment services to help people reach that level of
certification. 

Gill's got a good deal of experience in dealing with Competency based
qualifications... 

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Piers Cawley

Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 At 21:24 28/03/2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
   problems with Perl work in london,
 
 Are employers there too stupid to read CVs? Or too lazy? Or is
 there some other benefit certification bestows besides having you
 laughed at in the pub because you ("one", not personally of course :)
 automatically rank alongst all those other "paper" Perl programmers?
 
 http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
 strong.
 
 And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer
 in London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just
 started charging for tests.

Do they still claim that I'm the best perl programmer in the UK? If so
it's completely bloody surreal...

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* alex ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 sorry, was unclear. robert proposed a meta-certification body which then
 gave the tests out to certifiers (netthink, iterative etc). this seems to
 me to be far too complicated and fragmented.

i think it was me that suggested this

 
 i think you need a single organisation which plays the difficult balancing
 act of:
 
   * being respected and trusted by the Perl community (there's no
   point if the Perl decision makers poo poo it)

hence the limitation to UK  ROI

   * has enough autonomy from the Perl community or transparency to
   not be perceived as a guild / closed shop (this accusation could
   be levelled very easily if the exam were perceived to be designed so that
   only an inner sanctum could possibly pass it)

it will be aimed at a base level, as i said earlier it at least initially
will not even consider skill levels, but just competency sections

   * has rich enough grading so that mere mortals can achieve some

i dont think it will be graded

 * being commercial - particularly focused on marketing the PCSE
   logo to training companies, logos and IT directors. I don't
   think a voluntary, well-meaning effort will achieve this. 

nope, i don't agree here - i don't think this is easy but their is
precedent, YAPC::*

anyway i'm posting a proposal in a few mins


Greg

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Dave Cross

At 29 Mar 2001 11:43:59 +0100, Piers Cawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

   http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
  strong.
  
  And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer
  in London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just
  started charging for tests.
 
 Do they still claim that I'm the best perl programmer in the UK? If so
 it's completely bloody surreal...

According to brainbench, this is a list of the 1o best Perl programmers
in the UK. How many names do _you_ recognise?

4.82 Piers Cawley 
4.71 Matthew Robinson 
4.67 Rob Partington 
4.66 Dave Cross 
4.61 Steve Keay 
4.6 Ben Bell 
4.53 David Bloomfield 
4.49 Christof Damian 
4.46 Nick Cleaton 
4.46 Maurice Buxton 

Dave...




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

Greg Cope wrote:
 I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects 
 where given to lots of programmers, the usualy results were
 show i.e algorythm design was the most important factor,
 although on the whole scripting langauges were faster to
 develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and lower memory
 footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
 the URL.

You may be looking for this:

http://wwwipd.ira.uka.de/~prechelt/Biblio/jccpprtTR.pdf
An empirical comparison of C, C++, Java, Perl, Python, Rexx, and Tcl for a
search/string-processing program

Or google for "empirical comparison Python Rexx program" for a few
references.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Philip Newton

Paul Makepeace wrote:
 Can you trivially embed a perl network application in a browser?
[snip]
 Java's favour is not *entirely* due to massive marketing pimpery.

Java support in browsers didn't magically come because Microsoft and
Netscape said "Hey, let's develop a Java plug-in for our browser".

Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
3.0?

I'd say that's marketing and not something built-in. You want client-side
Perl, you have ActiveState's PerlScript. What, nobody has a client for it?
Well, lack of marketing.

I think there was even a Tcl plugin for Netscape that nobody used. Probably
not because of merit or lack thereof, but just because it wasn't hyped
enough, and/or didn't ship as standard with a major browser.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Paul Mison

On 29/03/2001 at 11:56 +0100, Philip Newton wrote:

Try doing Java in Lynx. Or Mosaic. Is there even a plugin for Netscape 
3.0?

Netscape 2 had Java built in, around the turn of 95/96. HotJava was
also about but that (understandably) died around the same time. I
*think* IE3 also did Java, about May '96.

mutter bias="Oven"anyway, most client side interaction seems to be
done with Flash anyway/mutter

--
:: paul
:: this world's crazy, give me the gun





Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 * Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  IMHO to be of any use certification needs to be HUGE .. eg we need
  O'Reilly AND Manning behind it or it simply won't fly. We could write a
 
 i think this will end up a slow process

umm .. so long as you have a benevolent dictator at the top its not that
slow... :) .. you are hereby elected benevolent dictator :)))

  very comprehensive set of tests and assesment levels, do all that. It
  could be the very best thought out, standards based certification for
  Perl out there .. but without a Major Backer (eg the two afore mentioned
  companies) its nothing ... 
 
 that can wait - stage a. is all that is important for now
 
  a) Fuck it, Just do it .. ( so thats got the ball rolling)
  b) get some other groups (eg NY.pm ) involved to get the support of the
  Perl community at large
 
 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

he did ? ... ?? ... dunno..  if its ever going to get there at a
corporate level we need this.

whos is the head perl advocacy bod/guru whatever .. surely someone should
speak to them at some point too ..preferably sooner than later?

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Robin Houston

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:32:57AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 
 Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail.

That's exactly the problem. And what if you crash after the
first COMMIT?

This is not an easy problem. The usual solution is
called "two-phase commit". See
http://www.sei.cmu.edu/str/descriptions/dtpc.html
for example.

 And I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...

It's not a language issue per se.
J2EE is (a lot!) more than just the Java language.

http://www.subrahmanyam.com/articles/jts/JTS.html

 .robin.

-- 
"Do nine men interpret?" "Nine men," I nod. 



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Roger Burton West wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 05:44:04AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:

 4.46 Nick Cleaton

 Ought to be on here, ask Gellyfish...


He heh

Look what they say I got :

Total Tests Completed  41233
Your Rank (1 = top) 40653
Your Percentile (99 = top): 1

Ah - See, you have to put in the score 

/J\






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg Cope

Philip Newton wrote:
 
 Greg Cope wrote:
  I once read a report (18 months ago) where the same projects
  where given to lots of programmers, the usualy results were
  show i.e algorythm design was the most important factor,
  although on the whole scripting langauges were faster to
  develope in, and had faster execuion speeds and lower memory
  footprints.  I should try and find it again as I've lost
  the URL.
 
 You may be looking for this:
 
 http://wwwipd.ira.uka.de/~prechelt/Biblio/jccpprtTR.pdf
 An empirical comparison of C, C++, Java, Perl, Python, Rexx, and Tcl for a
 search/string-processing program
 

That looks the ticket

ta.

Greg

 Or google for "empirical comparison Python Rexx program" for a few
 references.
 
 Cheers,
 Philip
 --
 Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
 If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Tony Bowden

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
 Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
 they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
 forum/organisation does this)

Somehow I doubt that the company still known as BlackStar will be that
interested.

I may be interested in being involved from a different perspective
though 

Tony
-- 
--
 Tony Bowden | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.tmtm.com/
 we barely have time to react in this world let alone rehearse
--



Re: Still screwing up References: (was Re: Job: I'm looking for one..)

2001-03-29 Thread pmh

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:17:17 +0100 (BST), Mark Fowler wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
 
  You're right, the referencing is a bit screwed up. I'll take a look at
  it today.

Actually, that message was OK.


 Your webmail CC is screwed up too.  On my mails there's now new line after
 the Cc: so I get a line that says 
 
 Cc: X-Mailer: foo 
 
 which my mail client (PINE) wants to reply to...

That's a bug in PINE, then. There is actually a newline after Cc:, but like some other 
parsers (including an early version of mine), PINE can't cope with an empty field.

MIME::Parser does something strange, too: with empty fields, -get_all returns either 
('') or (undef) (I can't remember which), but with non-empty fields, -get_all returns 
the contents with newlines intact, confusing things immensely for formatting code.

-- 
Peter Haworth   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"My own writing [...] is of such high quality that it's almost a new media in
 itself. There is writing, and there is My Writing. UltraWriting. Writing++.
 Object-orientated writing with full pre-emptive multi-tasking running at
 1000 rpm with a 20ms seek time, at a reasonable price (credit available)."
-- Ashley Pomeroy



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

It would be nice to get his backing, but I think that to do that we would
have to get a system working, and then show him that the certification is
in fact meaningful and not Just Another String Of Letters.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
  Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
  (or something similar)
 
 It would be nice to get his backing, but I think that to do that we would
 have to get a system working, and then show him that the certification is
 in fact meaningful and not Just Another String Of Letters.
 

the main priority, is to get the thing set up, everything else is
secondary.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:32:57AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
  or fail completely.

 Hmm... not quite sure what happens if either of the COMMITs fail. And
 I'd bemused as to how Java would handle it too...
 
 eval {
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
 $payment_dbh-do("BEGIN TRANSACTION");
 do_the_payment_thing($payment_dbh);
 do_the_fulfillment_thing($fulfillment_dbh);
 $payment_dbh-do("COMMIT");
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("COMMIT");

That is not atomic.  You need to do both COMMITs as one operation.

 }

At this point, your process dies horribly.

 if $@ {
 $fulfillment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");

Or for more fun, die horribly here instead.

 $payment_dbh-do("ROLLBACK");
 }

You need the rdbms to do the rollback itself if the commit fails, or if
a connection times out after a BEGIN TRANSACTION and without a COMMIT
occurring.  You need some way of getting the two systems talking to
each other so that they can synchronise the BEGIN TRANSACTIONs and the
COMMITs.  Ouch.

Can someone remind me why I don't do financial work any more?  Oh yeah :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Chris Devers

At 04:42 AM 29.3.2001 -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 O'Reilly wil like it cos they get to sell 'Perl For PCSE(stage 1)' 
 etc ..

Ooh. I think you've just given me an idea for my next book :)

"Gary Numan's guide to the PCSE"... 

;)




--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Tony Bowden wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:07:01PM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
  4.46 Nick Cleaton
  4.46 Maurice Buxton
  Coo, I'm on 4.46 as well.

 Me four.

 Although they seem to have lost my score.

 I have a nice shiny certificate though ...


Nick say's he has a nice shiny certificate as well - I have one 'Saying
Certified Perl Master' but they appear to have lost my score - it was
about tow years ago I took the test 

I took the free Korn Shell one and got 3.85 just before lunch which was
pretty impressive as I was beginning to get impatient after about 15 out
of 40 questions.

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:33:59AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  Have you thought about charging structures, SAP charge about 300gbp to take
  a certification exam, and they offer courses that are specifically designed
 
 i had thought about a 20 quid fee to be sent to YAS

I think (although I'm not sure) Greg sees the plan working the same way as
I do: we (the various trainers involved) provide training courses at our
usual rates which *prepare* the student to take an exam for a nominal fee
to gain accreditation. (ie, training courses don't include or substitute
for the exam.)

-- 
FAILURE:
When Your Best Just Isn't Good Enough

http://www.despair.com



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:30:26AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 ok, but i wouldn't worry about b. anytime soon, you have to remember
 Larry has said, he'd rather be certified than see perl certification
 (or something similar)

Bzzt. That was to do with ANSI certification.

-- 
"You can have my Unix system when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers."



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-29 Thread David H. Adler

On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:00:46PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 On Thu, 29 Mar 2001, Tony Bowden wrote:
 
  On Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:07:01PM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
   4.46 Nick Cleaton
   4.46 Maurice Buxton
   Coo, I'm on 4.46 as well.
 
  Me four.
 
  Although they seem to have lost my score.
 
  I have a nice shiny certificate though ...
 
 
 Nick say's he has a nice shiny certificate as well - I have one 'Saying
 Certified Perl Master' but they appear to have lost my score - it was
 about tow years ago I took the test 

I'm a Certified Perl Druid.  I outrank you. :-)

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
For the Forth aficionados reading this column, I offer my idea of the
ideal bumper sticker:  "YOU FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN."
 - Chip Salzenberg, in The Perl Journal #12



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread alex


easier said than done - it's a lot easier to hire good people than
convince clients that perl is the way forward - i may be wrong but i think
there are less and less big Perl projects out there available to perl
consultancies.  once you get to a particular price bracket (necessary to
afford and retain uber perl hackers) people start wanting to hear the
corporate technology buzzwords - j2ee, open market, bea, sap, siebel etc

this is just my 2p - please appreciate that i would love the situation to
be different (ie people queueing up for solutions using open source
methods - particulary perl) but i don't think that is the market
situation. 

alex

On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 y* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 11:41:33PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
   On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
Just to let you all know I'm on the market again.
Me too.
   er.. and me. 
  
  Who was it that was saying that the contract market was great just now?
  
 
 i think it was me, i dont want to go into this too much, but i think
 that a general perl consultancy (you know who you are) can take these
 guys, be very clever at marketting yourselves and prosper
 
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, alex wrote:

 
 easier said than done - it's a lot easier to hire good people than
 convince clients that perl is the way forward - i may be wrong but i think
 there are less and less big Perl projects out there available to perl
 consultancies.  once you get to a particular price bracket (necessary to
 afford and retain uber perl hackers) people start wanting to hear the
 corporate technology buzzwords - j2ee, open market, bea, sap, siebel etc

This does appear to be true, mind you many companies are recruiting perl
developers for themselves. This is healthy. I think a lot of companies see
j2ee, weblogic, etc as 'safe' despite quite catastrophic failures and the
high cost (the price of a consultant or contractor for any of these buzz
technologies is 2 or 3 times the price for less trendy technologies).

I think java is likely to be associated with a load of spectacular
failures. I don't think any project has failed because of cost or flaws in
perl, and major companies are migrating towards perl and oss in
general. many vendors like weblogic are claiming sites liek amazon use
technology when they have migrated to perl.

perhaps its time to beat these vendors at their own game with a list of
their clients who have migrated.
 
A.


-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Mark Fowler wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Aaron Trevena wrote:
  I think java is likely to be associated with a load of spectacular
  failures. 
 To be fair, most of these won't be Java's fault.  It's just that Java is

No, they'll be the vendor JVM's fault. :)

 the first choice of someone who is going on buzzwords, and hasn't really
 thought about the technical issues involved.

True.

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it. -- Mae West




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 I think its partially the vendors fault - they are pushing java as a
 solution for things it clearly isn't right for.
 

out of curiousity - such as (i.e. which vendors are pushing java for
inappropriate problem sapces)? 

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:16:07PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 
 I'd also add that Java, to my eyes, seems dreadfully uncooperative. Is it
 really as hard as it seems to get a non Java program to talk to j2ee stuff?
 Or is it all just part of the Java marketing? Is it me or is COM actually
 way easier to use than CORBA?

The "J2EE platform" consists of so many disparate technologies
that it's very hard to generalise about it. It's quite easy
to get a non-Java program to talk to an HTTP servlet, for
example :-)

Which parts of J2EE tend to get used the most in enterprise
environments? Anyone got any ideas/experience?

Presumably most people build solutions around e.g. weblogic,
rather than doing everything from raw ingredients.

 .robin.

-- 
"You are bound to be in a state of mental unrest, even turmoil.
 And of course there can be no inner peace: be proud of it!"



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  I think its partially the vendors fault - they are pushing java as a
  solution for things it clearly isn't right for.
  
 
 out of curiousity - such as (i.e. which vendors are pushing java for
 inappropriate problem sapces)? 

Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
e-commerce, plain and simple.

Accounting, some business processes map well to java but not all and
certainly not anything involving parsing and suchlike of any kind.

I don't think java is suitable for client/server systems either - having
both written and used java client/server apps, the networking classes in
1.2 and 1.3 suck badly and make the code long, slow and unclear.

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
 ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating tons of
 noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.

Wait until TPC.

-- 
Thus spake the master programmer:
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless."
-- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At Wed, 28 Mar 2001 12:34:41 +0100, Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
  ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating 
  tons of noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.
 
 Wait until TPC.

Sounds interesting. Care to elucidate?



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Piers Cawley

"Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 The recent .com crash has had many desirable effects as well as undesirable
 ones, and one of these is the devaluation in hype in .com related
 technologies. An awful lot of the value of the big packages is based on
 future value - "You don't need this software today, but you will in a year's
 time so buy it today and you'll be ahead of the competition and able to
 scale up fast when the orders start pouring in!". This doesn't carry much
 weight anymore.

Hmm... Given that big business seems to have bought some of the ideas
of 'Just In Time' stock holding and delivery type stuff, maybe the
time has come to start pushing Perl and open source programming as
being 'Just In Time Development'.

[FX: Makes note in the 'you really should turn this into some real
marketing literature' file.]

-- 
Piers




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Philip Newton

Dominic Mitchell wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:08:59PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
  Discuss.
 
 s/fuck|tits|arse//;

Nonono. You want reusable components so you don't end up reinventing the
wheel, badly.

use Regexp::Common 'clean';  # don't muck with my $,

s/$RE{profanity}//g;

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



RE: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread alex


i'm not sure this does cut both ways - if what you are saying is correct -
then java's dominance becomes even more of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

i don't think it's the corporates themselves who are making all the noise
about java - it's an aggressive sun PR department which is latching on to
corporate java projects and then turning these into "case studies". 

basically, no matter how much good-natured perl advocacy there is out
there - it's always going to be very hard to influence corporate decision
makers when you are up against an army of buzzword technology salaried PR
departments. 

i think the difference between Linux and Perl is relevant. Linux has been
adopted by big hardware manufacturers in an effort to challenge M$
dominance. Linux is therefore gaining credibility in corporateland (though
the jury is definitely out). The same cannot be said of Perl. Until a
corporate puts marketing muscle behind it (highly unlikely) people will
perceive it as a hacker technology.

alex

ps whoever raised the issue of opex/capex - openness: the more people i
talk to nowadays about selling consultancy work - the more i hear people
wanting product and support - not bespoke solutions. people out there have
different notions of openness: they would prefer to be in hock to a brand
name technology company (eg Open Market) than a consultancy with an exotic
skillset (which does actually make some sense).

 
 One thing to remember is that the hype cuts two ways. We may read in a
 magazine of ten projects using Java, and none using Perl, but that is as
 much because the companies that are using Perl don't bother sending press
 releases to everyone than it is because no one is using Perl.
 

-- 

alex nunes | t 020 7603 5723 | f 020 7603 2504
director   | read the NEW story @ http://codix.net/
codix.net  | 107 shepherd's bush road, london w6 7lp   




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dean S Wilson

Original Message-
From: Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]


On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 12:02:48PM +0100, alex wrote:
 ps the big killer is that there is no large corporate generating
tons of
 noise about Perl - whereas this is not the case for Java.

Wait until TPC.


Ahh come on! We need more than that! :)

Where are all the things like Perl advocacy, PR, Business Awareness
and non-technical expansion plans for the language discussed?

Dean
--
Perl coder in a sea of PHP.




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Houston wrote:
 
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
  I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
  Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell.
 
  I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
 
 Since excellent regex libraries are freely available, this
 is akin to claiming that Perl is useless for writing HTTP
 clients because LWP isn't in the core ;-)

blatantly off topic

I was thinking about this the otherday - can you recommend some (pref
open source) Java regex libs ?

going back to the perl topics 

Greg


 
  .robin.
 
 --
 A man, a plan, a cat, a ham, a yak, a yam, a hat, a canal--Panama!
 --Guy Jacobson



RE: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Jonathan Peterson

I quote from the MediaSurface brochure on my desk:

"The Content Server is written in Perl, the de facto standard language for
server-side applications on the World Wide Web."

 It's not just that, if a software house wants to support a languages
 interaction with its product, where does it go for Perl? P5P? CLPM?
 Could a CEO/CTO go on and really discuss sensitive matters with
 either group?

Alas that TPI went titsup.com. Businesses love partnerships - they smell of
shared risks. Businesses can partner with RedHat to get involved with Linux.
They can't partner with anyone but ActiveState to get involved with Perl,
and for some reason ActiveState just don't seem to have the right vibes.

 Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
 problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
 things.

Yeah it's a bitch.

 *sigh*

 Greg

 --
 Greg McCarroll
http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:59:40PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
 I was thinking about this the otherday - can you recommend some (pref
 open source) Java regex libs ?

OROMatcher.
http://jakarta.apache.org/oro/index.html

There's also gnu.regexp, for LGPL fans:
http://www.cacas.org/~wes/java/

Both support perl5 syntax, more or less.

 .robin.

-- 
"Sometimes I sit in front of my washing machine and contemplate the
 worthlessness of life.  My washing machine isn't even plugged in."
--alex



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg Cope

Robin Houston wrote:
 
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:59:40PM +, Greg Cope wrote:
  I was thinking about this the otherday - can you recommend some (pref
  open source) Java regex libs ?
 
 OROMatcher.
 http://jakarta.apache.org/oro/index.html
 
 There's also gnu.regexp, for LGPL fans:
 http://www.cacas.org/~wes/java/
 
 Both support perl5 syntax, more or less.
 
  .robin.

Ta.

Greg

 
 --
 "Sometimes I sit in front of my washing machine and contemplate the
  worthlessness of life.  My washing machine isn't even plugged in."
 --alex



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
  I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
  Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell. 
  
  I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
 
 Since excellent regex libraries are freely available, 

like I said.. as far as i can tell .. which maybe not very far :)

so .. enlighten me .. how would you go about using regexes in Java? 
-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Robin Houston wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:23:01PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
  I concur.  There is simply too much of the important stuff missing from
  Java to make it useable for web content delivery as far as I can tell. 
  
  I just couldn't do half of what I do without regexes
 
 Since excellent regex libraries are freely available, this
 is akin to claiming that Perl is useless for writing HTTP
 clients because LWP isn't in the core ;-)

any regex that requires 8 lines to do what perl does in 1 is hardly
excellent.

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:08:59PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
 I reckon interperability is big, and that XML-RPC (or possibly even
 SOAP) will change the way we work. There's no point writing everything
 in one language or environment any more. Microsoft may have understood
 this with .NET. Discuss.

Correct, especially SOAP, WSDL, etc. This is going to be very big
indeed. MS is betting their company on this. Watch out...

Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 It's not just that, if a software house wants to support a languages
 interaction with its product, where does it go for Perl? P5P? CLPM?

NetThink? :)

 Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
 problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
 things.

Hmm. I wonder how we could go about fixing that.

-- 
King's Law of Clues :  Common sense is inversely proportional to the
academic intelligence of the person concerned.



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:10:00PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
  Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
  e-commerce, plain and simple.
 
 Why not?
 
 Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 

probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
last child is reaped ... 100 lines?

 Can you write stored procedures in Perl? For Oracle?

i thought (but have never tried) thats what OraPerl did ..

 (-- the database most often used in  e-commerce.) 

is it? ... sure you don't mean 'the database used by most large
corporates for e-commerce' ? I know nothing about the spread of spend
between the large coprporations and the small 5 dollar outfits .. but
theres a hell of a lot of small guys out there, running MySQL and
postgres ... maybe in spend oracle wins, but in sheer numbers of
transaction the other 2 proabably have the upper hand

 Are Perl's threads stable? And its libraries entirely threadsafe?

are Javas? hint: do not mention java threading and cross platform
compatability to my colleague as his hair is thin enough already

 Does Perl even directly support threading at the language level?

nope .. but do you need to? why do you need threads to do
point-click-buy? sure you can use threads to advantage in some
situations, but they are not essential by any means ...  

 Can you trivially embed a perl network application in a browser?

no .. but its not trivial in Java either .. a random small app on a demo
CD is a world away from a real live multi platform Java app on the net ..
my colleague has been working on getting a multiclient network app up to
run consistently on ie 4/5 netscape 4/4.7 windoze and mac for the last 6
months or so ... I agreee that Javas portability of classes between
server and client is an amazing thing .. but its not trouble free, or
guaranteed as the blurb would have you believe.

 Java's favour is not *entirely* due to massive marketing pimpery.

no .. it _does_ have its strong points .. I wouldn't have even
bought a  book if i thought it was really bad .. but it just seems to
make some things so hard to do.  Mybe its just me being crap. I'd be
intrested to set a good perl programmer and a Java guy head to head ..
get em to build an app to the same spec and see how long they took, and
then get them to extend it in some way and time that ..  

don't get me wrong .. I'm not just Java bashing .. but really, the hype
it gets would have you believe its all tings to all men .. in reallity
its got good points, but some big holes too ... 

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Paul Makepeace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:10:00PM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote:
  Plain and simply I don't think java is the right technology for
  e-commerce, plain and simple.
 
 Why not?
 
 Can Perl do distributed database transactions? Can you write stored
 procedures in Perl? For Oracle? (-- the database most often used in
 e-commerce.) Are Perl's threads stable? And its libraries entirely
 threadsafe? Does Perl even directly support threading at the language
 level? Can you trivially embed a perl network application in a browser?
 
 Java's favour is not *entirely* due to massive marketing pimpery.
 

the one thing that comes out of paul's comments is that he mentions
database operations and client side processing in a browser, and
this is important - i think aaron can come back citing data/text processing,
etc., but the real solution medium to business problem modelling/solving
with computers is not traditional language based, this glue (and i'll
go ad naseum here - not glue language) is abstracted, and yes XML is
likely to be a building block technology, but the devil is in the
details

anyway, i'll slag myself off now ...

how much more wooly can you than this? ;-)

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
  Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
  problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
  things.
 
 Hmm. I wonder how we could go about fixing that.
 

My favourite solution in business when you are faced with the problem
of people not wanting you to implement something or not being sure
about it and wanting a period of consideration is as follows ...

fuck it, just do it

(who says i couldn't work for nike)

I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).

This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
then we can achieve something. 

I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
forum/organisation does this)

I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
the wider stage, but ho hum.

Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross 
(with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.

Greg



-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Paul Makepeace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:08:59PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
  I reckon interperability is big, and that XML-RPC (or possibly even
  SOAP) will change the way we work. There's no point writing everything
  in one language or environment any more. Microsoft may have understood
  this with .NET. Discuss.
 
 Correct, especially SOAP, WSDL, etc. This is going to be very big
 indeed. MS is betting their company on this. Watch out...

i'll fuck them if its the last thing i do on this one, trust me

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:
  Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 
 
 probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
 establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
 last child is reaped ... 100 lines?

I think the key word in Paul's question was "transactions".
In other words, you have more than one database, possibly
in different physical (and network) locations, and you need
to perform a transaction - an _atomic_ transaction - across
several of them.

No partial failure allowed, it has to either succeed completely
or fail completely.

The obvious example is a bank transfer. Add the money to one
account, remove it from the other. Oops, the second part failed.
Double your money!

Actually, any e-commerce operation has the same problem. You
need to fulfil the order *and* charge the customer - those
two things almost certainly can't happen on the same machine.
If you do one and not the other, then either the supplier or
the customer is obviously losing out. It has to be neither or
both.


I think that's what Paul was talking about. He can correct me
if I'm wrong :-)

 .robin.

-- 
select replace(a, CHR(88), replace(a,,'')) from (
select 'select replace(a, CHR(88), replace(a,,)) from (
select ''X'' a from dual)' a from dual)



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
  form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
  sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
 
 Fuck it. Let's do it.
 

Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already
have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can
take it from Simon's email that NetThink believe this to be a good
idea, if others can reply _on list_ we can get a good sense
of commitment, i think i identified some parties in the previous
email.

Greg




-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
   form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will 
   sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).
  Fuck it. Let's do it.

Firstly, mod_perl passim.

 Well as a fairly independent person in this matter, i will volunteer
 to coordinate this. Unless there are any objections - i already

TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
different styles. How can you evaluate this?

 have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can

Please share this

 take it from Simon's email that NetThink believe this to be a good
 idea, if others can reply _on list_ we can get a good sense
 of commitment, i think i identified some parties in the previous
 email.

If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

Please enlighten us.

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
What  passes  for  woman's  intuition  is often  nothing  more  than man's
transparency. -- George Nathan




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 * Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
   Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
   problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
   things.
 
  Hmm. I wonder how we could go about fixing that.
 

 My favourite solution in business when you are faced with the problem
 of people not wanting you to implement something or not being sure
 about it and wanting a period of consideration is as follows ...

 fuck it, just do it

 (who says i couldn't work for nike)

 I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
 NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
 make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
 wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
 argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
 form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will
 sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).

 This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
 can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
 then we can achieve something.

 I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
 Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
 they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
 forum/organisation does this)

 I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
 the wider stage, but ho hum.

 Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross
 (with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
 Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.


Strangely I was talking wiv da boss this morning about the training issues
wrt perl in our department ... I might find myself doing some training in
the near future . :)

/J\




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:51:10PM +0100, Robin Houston wrote:
 I think that's what Paul was talking about. He can correct me
 if I'm wrong :-)

Exactly what I meant :-) And Java's a whole lot better for this than
COBOL, C, and other things that make you go "blech".

J2EE is horribly bloated but the stuff it does is, in some cases,
quite hard. And the big point is it does it today, which Perl doesn't
despite Perl's doubtless eventual capability.

You know, Perl's biggest problem is it being associated with slow
non-mod_perl CGI scripts. It's years old but I swear this assocation
will Never Die. As soon as you mention 'mod_perl' in defence people
glaze over as if converting a Jehovah's Witness to New Guinea
Witchcraft.

All it needs is to be tightly but flexibly integrated into
webserver(s), blessed with a completely new name and fronted by a flash
highly corporately sponsored web page... I secretly wish "Perl 6"
gets called "Something Else Completely" (no revision number for 1.0
'cos "1.0" means "barely beta" thanks to Apple, MS, etc).

$1/50,
Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  TIMTOWTDI kind of screws things up. Different people will code in
  different styles. How can you evaluate this?
 it doesn't matter how they achieve most things, as long as they can
 do them ... reasonably

Fair. Where do you draw the line of "reasonably". This falls down to
personal preference.

   have a reasonable plan og how to achieve this _quickly_. I can
  Please share this
 it's too late tonight, i'll try and remember tommorow, the plan is more 
 how to get it organised and do all the dull procedural stuff quickly

Sure.

 the actual content is up for debate, although i think levels of perl
 `skillz' would suck, i'd much rather see a ``core'' perl
 certification,

OK. Fair enough. This sounds reasonable.

 and slowly secondary skill certifications being developed and registered,
 however at launch, probably WWW and DBI spring to mind as two
 secondary ones that will be there from the word go - however they will be 
 focused quite tightly on their areas

Do you not think that in today's internet world, these mostly go together.
Interestingly, though, in training new people at my current company, I
discovered that they are quicker to learn Perl, and have much more of a
problem with the stateless nature of HTTP and the implications of dealing
with web browsers. That doesn't belong in a Perl certification. This is
kind of where it gets difficult, and why the mod_perl'ers appeared to
abandon it...

  If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
  consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.
  
  Please enlighten us.
 well hopefully when people get in tommorow they will either say yes or
 no, i'll get a plan of action out soon after that 

I'm curious to see what you come up with. The interesting bit is where you
draw the line...

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
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What  passes  for  woman's  intuition  is often  nothing  more  than man's
transparency. -- George Nathan




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:08:00PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote:
   Can Perl do distributed database transactions? 
  
  probably .. simple multi threaded app, fork a few child processes,
  establish the odd DBI connection, execute a query each return when the
  last child is reaped ... 100 lines?
 
 I think the key word in Paul's question was "transactions".
 In other words, you have more than one database, possibly
 in different physical (and network) locations, and you need
 to perform a transaction - an _atomic_ transaction - across
 several of them.

oh _that_ transaction .. oops .. with MySQL not doing proper transactions
by default, I keep forgetting they exist :) 

again, you could do it ..  but granted it would be a non-trivial
task. If thats sooper easy in Java then I have learnt someting and today
wasn't wasted after all ... :)

(my pseudo-transaction scheme for MySQL is basically : .. do this and
return a closure to undo it if I to .. bung the closures in an array ..
if something screws up then back it all off by walking along the array
and executing the closures ... its not rocket science but it works ..
sort of .. I used it for doing multiple inserts into a spread of tables
... the lack of row level locking is whats a real pain .. you have to
lock all the tables, which is Bad Karma if they are in an even moderately
loaded system)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
 If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
 consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

That's mainly due to the M rather than the C.

-- 
She said that she was working for the ABC News,
It was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use
-- Elvis Costello



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Matthew Byng-Maddick

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Simon Cozens wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
  If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
  consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.
 That's mainly due to the M rather than the C.

OK, well some of the Cisco courses are pretty crap too...

MBM

-- 
Matthew Byng-Maddick   Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  +44 20  8980 5714  (Home)
http://colondot.net/   Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942  (Mobile)
What  passes  for  woman's  intuition  is often  nothing  more  than man's
transparency. -- George Nathan




Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:57:45PM +0100, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
 Maybe I should start a mailing list for discussion of this stuff tomorrow
 - thoughts ?

Sounds a good idea. We're also happy to host it, if you want.

-- 
"Irrigation of the land with seawater desalinated by fusion power is ancient.
It's called 'rain'."
-- Michael McClary, in alt.fusion



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 20:47 28/03/2001, you wrote:
* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
   Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
   problems with Perl work in london, coming from the other side of
   things.
 
  Hmm. I wonder how we could go about fixing that.
 

My favourite solution in business when you are faced with the problem
of people not wanting you to implement something or not being sure
about it and wanting a period of consideration is as follows ...

fuck it, just do it

(who says i couldn't work for nike)

I'd suggest that it is a reasonable working assumption that both
NetThink, Iterative and other Perl Consultancies/Trainers want to
make money. I'd also state the assumption that if proposed to the
wider Perl community - Perl certification would go back into
argument state, so I suggest (with Dave Cross' blessing), that we
form the London.pm certification. NetThink and Iterative will
sign up to teach to a given level of skills (or several levels).

This process _has_ to be open and should have a deadline. If we
can get something that helps london / south england and/or the UK
then we can achieve something.

I'd advise getting some non-trainers involved as well, perhaps
Blackstar and other Perl businesses? (their hook will be that
they become partners and get logo placement in whatever pseudo
forum/organisation does this)

I realise this action and the attitude may not be popular on
the wider stage, but ho hum.

Thoughts? If Simon (NetThink), Piers/Leon (Iterative), Dave Cross
(with his london.pm hat on) and a couple of companies that use
Perl say this is a good idea, i think we can do this.

Got my blessing - for what it's worth.

Dave...



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:05:43PM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:

 If I see a sensible plan for certification, this sounds sensible, but
 consider what most people think of eg. MCSEs.

*We* may look down on the qualification, cos we know it's worthless just
like most other qualifications, and certainly we will look with great
suspicion at potential employees who try to sell themselves based solely
on such qualifications.

However, the Pointy Haired Ones do not realise this.  They think
qualification = professional whereas no qualification = amateur.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

This is a signature.  There are many like it but this one is mine.

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **

 PGP signature


Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:19:55PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just started 
 charging for tests.

Perhaps the Perl community should have an online certification program
that funnels cash into the Conway Coffers? :-)

No, wait, that might just work...

Paul



Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 21:57 28/03/2001, you wrote:
On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:

  * Matthew Byng-Maddick ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Simon Cozens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 08:47:03PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:

[Certification things]

Maybe I should start a mailing list for discussion of this stuff tomorrow
- thoughts ?

There _was_ a Perl certification mailing list that Skud started a while 
back. Don't know if it still exists tho' - been quiet for a while.

Dave...



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:

 http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
 strong.
 
 And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer in 
 London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just started 
 charging for tests.

well I just looked ... and their script failed to find 'Perl' even though
they have a test for Perl ...  whoever wrote the site obvioulsy dint do
very well in the tests!

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 22:19 28/03/2001, Dave Cross wrote:
At 21:24 28/03/2001, Simon wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:58:36PM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  Also i think the lack of Perl certification, is one of the biggest
  problems with Perl work in london,

http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
strong.

And last time I looked, they claimed I was the best Perl programmer in 
London. Don't expect that to change soon either - as they've just started 
charging for tests.

Bugger! I'm not any more. Matthew Robinson has beaten me into second place.

Dave...
[sulking]



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:29:46PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
 advantage over other databases - speed.  But I wasn't allowed to upgrade
 to (eg) postgresql for silly reasons which I forget now.

Your PHBastard called in a $200k/month Oracle DBA and you walked after
the weekend to find your root prompt replaced with NT4.0 logon box?

I hate it when that happens.

Paul



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:32:15PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 well I just looked ... and their script failed to find 'Perl' even though
 they have a test for Perl ...

I hope this isn't the programming language equivalent of dot-bomb
stock becoming unlisted as 'junk' on the NASDAQ...

"Perl dropping 2 1/8 colons against Python today..."
http://home.earthlink.net/~mrob/pub/lang_srom.html

Paul



Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:22:37PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
 There _was_ a Perl certification mailing list that Skud started a while 
 back. 

Unless we're thinking of different things, wasn't that just perl-trainers?

 Don't know if it still exists tho' - been quiet for a while.

Nothing on lists.perl.org, anyhow.

-- 
She said that she was working for the ABC News,
It was as much of the alphabet as she knew how to use
-- Elvis Costello



Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Chris Devers

At 12:24 PM 28.3.2001 -0800, you wrote:
http://www.tekmetrics.com/ aka brainbench seems to still be going
strong.

Heh -- they're one of my company's main competitors. I don't know the first thing 
about them (aside from the I think reasonable assumption that they must do roughly the 
same things my company does, or they wouldn't be "one of our main competitors"...), 
but I was informed during a tediously long meeting today [1] that they're not doing 
very well, saved at the moment mainly by a boatload of VC funds that they're burning 
through. With any luck, the certification industry will implode.

'course that could mean I need a new job, but we'll see :)


[1] You mean I have to look forward to another 40 years of these damn meetings? I 
think Martin Blank had the right idea: "will there be meetings?" "...sure!" "No 
meetings." *blam*! *blam*! *blam*!




--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:45:09PM -0500, Chris Devers wrote:
 Heh -- they're one of my company's main competitors. I don't know the first
 thing about them

*cough*. Hey, that's not good, you know. :)
 
-- 
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be
regarded as a criminal offence.
-- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 5



Re: Certifiable ( was Re: Job: I'm looking for one.. )

2001-03-28 Thread Dave Cross

At 22:44 28/03/2001, you wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 10:22:37PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
  There _was_ a Perl certification mailing list that Skud started a while
  back.

Unless we're thinking of different things, wasn't that just perl-trainers?

No. There was definitely a perlcert as well. I've got about 60 mails from 
it from Mar/Apr last year. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Don't know if it still exists tho' - been quiet for a while.

Nothing on lists.perl.org, anyhow.

I'll ask Skud next time I see her on IRC.

Dave...



-- 
http://www.dave.org.uk  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Chris Devers

At 10:49 PM 28.3.2001 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:45:09PM -0500, Chris Devers wrote:
 Heh -- they're one of my company's main competitors.
 I don't know the first thing about them

*cough*. Hey, that's not good, you know. :)

Well, yeah, I suppose. :)

I just keep our site running, but I leave the contents of the site to Marketing. 
Certification exams may pay my bills, but I certainly don't care to take any of them...



--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Job: I'm looking for one..

2001-03-28 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, you wrote:
 
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:26:38PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
  (my pseudo-transaction scheme for MySQL is basically : .. do this and
  return a closure to undo it if I to .. bung the closures in an array ..
  if something screws up then back it all off by walking along the array
  and executing the closures ... its not rocket science but it works ..
  sort of .. I used it for doing multiple inserts into a spread of tables
 
 I did something similar.  It worked too, until not only did an insert
 fail, but when I was backing out, a delete failed too.  There was much
 head-scratching.  A week later, the hard disk died and the head-scratching
 stopped.

;)) .. 

 Unfortunately, if you implement this sort of thing, mysql loses it's only
 advantage over other databases - speed.  But I wasn't allowed to upgrade
 to (eg) postgresql for silly reasons which I forget now.

well .. since in most web based uses of MySQL the 99% of queries are
simple 'select * from blah where something=something_else' .. the
speed is all you need .. every now and again there is reason to add a
user or, very occasionally, someone buys something .. and those bits have
the pseudo-transactions in .. yeah .. its slow, but I'd ratehr have that
bit slow and the rest lightning quick than pretyy much anything else ...

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



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