Another Komodo

2001-04-26 Thread Paul Makepeace

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-5729530.html

Makes bizarre reading after AS's press releases.

(I assume AOL's Komodo is some Mozilla repackaging? Anyone know
anything about this?)

Paul



Re: Another Komodo

2001-04-26 Thread Dean

On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 05:44:45PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 (I assume AOL's Komodo is some Mozilla repackaging? Anyone know
 anything about this?)

theregister.co.uk has been running stories about it being used as a
possible alternative if AOL decides to stop bundling IE. No technical
details though...

Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon



Re: Another Komodo

2001-04-26 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 01:50:34AM +0100, Dean wrote:
 theregister.co.uk has been running stories about it being used as a
 possible alternative if AOL decides to stop bundling IE. No technical
 details though...

http://www.betanews.com/article.php3?sid=988225959

has a weensy bit at the last paragraph, saying it's basically a wrapper
over Gecko (yay, usable Mozilla GUI, finally).

Paul



RE: Komodo

2001-04-24 Thread David Irvine


--- Robin Szemeti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:
I note that the Linux distribution of Kodomo
 contained
   complete distributions
of Mozilla, Perl and Python.
  
   /me cancels the download, suggests Activestate
 acquire some Clue
  
  
  Isn't that a bit harsh? If the Linux version is a
 Beta / Alpha type deal it
  seems fair enough they want people to test it with
 known versions of its
  dependant apps, no?
 
 umm .. for a windows install where Activestate Perl
 seems to be the
 standard then yes, its fair enough. For a *nix tool
 it MUST work with a
 standard Perl install or it is of zero use (to me)
 .. I do not have any
 intention of installing Activestate Perl on my Linux
 box or using it in a
 production enviroment.
 
my two cents
It looks like a potentially good product for the
windows environment, providing integration into a
widely used IDE is probably a safe bet, however unless
you have the very latest version of windoze 98, me
etc, and the 'windows installed(TM)' installed and up
to date, you can't install it. 

I gave up after ie5.5 decided i needed to pay for a
service pack. 

Only time will tell.

/My two cents

David




=
Artificial Intelligence is no match for human stupitity!


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Philip Newton

Robin Szemeti wrote:
 in the *nix variant can you load stuff from CPAN straight in ?

Lemme check... yep, you can. (Using the Solaris version of ActivePerl 618.)
I used a non-XS module, but I believe I've done it with XS modules as well.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On 18/04/2001 at 16:36 +0100, Dean wrote:
 Does OS X come with GNU tools like GCC and make then?
 
 Yes, but they're not installed by default. (I can't remember if the
 'BSD subsystem' is installed by default either though.) It comes on a
 seperate CD within the OS X shrinkwrap box- you also get OS 9 and OS X
 base install.
 
 You also get ProjectBuilder IDE.
 
 http://developer.apple.com/tools/projectbuilder/

Which is very nice. Or at least it was, back when it was NeXTSTEP. 

-- 
Piers




Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:02:03AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:34:49PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
   Emacs has been able to do this for probably 10 years or more.  I think
   even vim can do it now, too.
  
  Never noticed that! I normally edit my code in emacs and do the compiling
  on the command line in another term, never got too comfortable with doing
  everything in xemacs.
 
 Then you're missing half the fun. Seriously. M-x compile was the
 reason I started using emacs in the first place.

And then there's M-X grep which also works in a simliar manner, jumping
to hits from grep results...

-Dom



Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 10:56:51AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  You also get ProjectBuilder IDE.
  
  http://developer.apple.com/tools/projectbuilder/
 
 Which is very nice. Or at least it was, back when it was NeXTSTEP. 

I had a little play with it last night, and it's still not bad.  Only
supports C/C++/Java though.  I can't figger out how to get the Interface
Builder to work with my project, so will have to read the docs.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Rip, Mix, Burn, unless you're using our latest and greatest
 operating system which we couldn't be arsed to complete

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **



Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Simon Cozens

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:02:03AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Then you're missing half the fun. Seriously. M-x compile was the
 reason I started using emacs in the first place.

And I \N{WHITE HEART SUIT} M-x gdb

-- 
I respect faith, but doubt is what gives you an education.
-- Wilson Mizner



Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread David Irvine


  
   you can write code in emacs?
  
  Apparently if you install enough major modes you
 can even edit text in
  it... ;)

Theres a nasty rumor going about that its really just
a mail client.

D


=
"Artificial Intelligence is no match for human stupitity!"


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/



Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 10:56:51AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
  Paul Mison [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
   You also get ProjectBuilder IDE.
   
   http://developer.apple.com/tools/projectbuilder/
  
  Which is very nice. Or at least it was, back when it was NeXTSTEP. 
 
 I had a little play with it last night, and it's still not bad.  Only
 supports C/C++/Java though.  I can't figger out how to get the Interface
 Builder to work with my project, so will have to read the docs.

Works with Objective C too. Which is still (for my money) the best way
of messing with the NeXTSTEP object model. 

-- 
Piers




Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Piers Cawley

Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:02:03AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
  Then you're missing half the fun. Seriously. M-x compile was the
  reason I started using emacs in the first place.
 
 And I \N{WHITE HEART SUIT} M-x gdb

Oh, yes, baby. And M-x ediff and friends are pretty good fun too.
Especially when you're playing with revision control stuff, makes
integration almost fun.

-- 
Piers




Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Jonathan Stowe

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Philip Newton wrote:

 Barbie wrote:
  The good thing about PPM is that it does all the installation
  for you. the bad thing is that it doesn't run any tests. Then
  again seeing as they've done the job of porting the package
  you'd hope it was tested at their end. At least that's what
  _I'm_ hoping.

 Yes. The PPM used to be really meagre with builds 5xx (5.005_**) but with
 6xx (5.6.*) the situation has improved. I believe they have some kind of
 semi-automated way of making PPMs from CPAN modules.


ExtUtils::MakeMaker has support for producing PPD stuff now - I guess this
came in with 5.6.0 ...

/J\




Re: Komodo

2001-04-19 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:46:03PM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote:
 Works with Objective C too. Which is still (for my money) the best way
 of messing with the NeXTSTEP object model. 

s/best/only/

Paul



RE: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Jonathan Peterson


  I note that the Linux distribution of Kodomo contained
 complete distributions
  of Mozilla, Perl and Python.

 /me cancels the download, suggests Activestate acquire some Clue


Isn't that a bit harsh? If the Linux version is a Beta / Alpha type deal it
seems fair enough they want people to test it with known versions of its
dependant apps, no?

It its a full release then sure they should be a bit smarter.




Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:12:32PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
Rip, Mix, Burn, unless you're using our latest and greatest
  operating system which we couldn't be arsed to complete

You mean, "...if you choose to install an OS over the one we're
actually supporting for those operations"?

Besides 10.0.1 just arrived...

P



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:52:58AM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
  actually supporting for those operations"?
 
 No, I mean "unless you're using our latest and greatest operating system
 which, despite us only supporting a limited number of systems to make it

This is specious. The ad is running for an iMac, whose OS is 9.1.

 easier for us to write all the drivers etc, we still couldn't be arsed
 to complete".

Who said "release early, release often". Apple are doing the right
thing, IMO.

P



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:59:51AM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
 Who said "release early, release often". Apple are doing the right
 thing, IMO.

Probably Eric Raymond.

Which reminds me, there used to be a comment in the code for an
authentication server at Demon:

/* fork early, fork often */

Which was very telling when we found it.

-Dom



RE: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:
   I note that the Linux distribution of Kodomo contained
  complete distributions
   of Mozilla, Perl and Python.
 
  /me cancels the download, suggests Activestate acquire some Clue
 
 
 Isn't that a bit harsh? If the Linux version is a Beta / Alpha type deal it
 seems fair enough they want people to test it with known versions of its
 dependant apps, no?

umm .. for a windows install where Activestate Perl seems to be the
standard then yes, its fair enough. For a *nix tool it MUST work with a
standard Perl install or it is of zero use (to me) .. I do not have any
intention of installing Activestate Perl on my Linux box or using it in a
production enviroment.

I've been through all the frustration I can cope with trying to get
various CPAN modules to install with Activestate Perl under windows,
waiting for the 'coming real soon' PPM version only to discover it was
still not the latest release etc etc. (thinks back to DBI::Proxy under
windows ..)  I have no intention of extending that experience to Unix :)

I've sent a mail enquiring as to if it works on top of a standard Perl
installation... 

 It its a full release then sure they should be a bit smarter.

if it doesn't work on a standard Perl install its dead in the water IMHO

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:12:30AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 if it doesn't work on a standard Perl install its dead in the water IMHO

FWIW, I agree. Not only that, if it conflicts with existing
distribution's package management that'd be a nightmare.

Paul



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Dean

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:12:30AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 umm .. for a windows install where Activestate Perl seems to be the
 standard then yes, its fair enough. For a *nix tool it MUST work with a
 standard Perl install or it is of zero use (to me) .. I do not have any
 intention of installing Activestate Perl on my Linux box or using it in a
 production environment.

IMHO the Linux port is an afterthought, most of the effort seems to have
been focused on the Windows side, the integration with Visual Studio
springs to mind.

 I've been through all the frustration I can cope with trying to get
 various CPAN modules to install with Activestate Perl under windows,
 waiting for the 'coming real soon' PPM version only to discover it was
 still not the latest release etc etc. (thinks back to DBI::Proxy under
 windows ..)  I have no intention of extending that experience to Unix :)

Mr Szemeti it seems we have met here before ;)

 I've sent a mail enquiring as to if it works on top of a standard Perl
 installation...

Let us know what they come back with.
 
 if it doesn't work on a standard Perl install its dead in the water IMHO

I can't see it taking off that much in the Nix world anyway, for some
reason IDE's always seem unwelcome (He adds writing this in vi and going
back to xemacs to code ;))

Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:59:51AM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:52:58AM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:

  No, I mean "unless you're using our latest and greatest operating system
  which, despite us only supporting a limited number of systems to make it
 
 This is specious. The ad is running for an iMac, whose OS is 9.1.

The iMac is one of the platforms supported by OS X.

In fact, CD burning doesn't work under OS X on *any* machine and isn't
shipped pre-installed on any machine, so by your argument, it is wrong to
complain about it being non-functional anywhere.  That doesn't make sense
to me.

  easier for us to write all the drivers etc, we still couldn't be arsed
  to complete".
 
 Who said "release early, release often". Apple are doing the right
 thing, IMO.

When I release early, release often, I don't expect people to pay for the
privelege.

I knew when OS X was originally released that it lacked CDRW support,
and I didn't complain (much).  However, that it *still* lacks it is
inexcusable.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Rip, Mix, Burn, unless you're using our latest and greatest
 operating system which we couldn't be arsed to complete

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Paul Makepeace

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:44:38AM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
 The iMac is one of the platforms supported by OS X.

One has to assume anyone installing an OS over a different is
intelligent enough to read the caveats.

 In fact, CD burning doesn't work under OS X on *any* machine and isn't
 shipped pre-installed on any machine, so by your argument, it is wrong to
 complain about it being non-functional anywhere.

You're complaining about an ad being misleading (my possibly wrong
reading). It's for an OS 9.1 system!

Yeah, no burning is a bummer that's definitely true.

 When I release early, release often, I don't expect people to pay for the
 privelege.

That's because you haven't yet written the World's Most Advanced OS :-)

 I knew when OS X was originally released that it lacked CDRW support,
 and I didn't complain (much).  However, that it *still* lacks it is
 inexcusable.

Oh, what, four weeks later? Jesus -- hard to please some people :-)
Not like there are any apps for OS X either!

P



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:

 IMHO the Linux port is an afterthought, most of the effort seems to have
 been focused on the Windows side, the integration with Visual Studio
 springs to mind.

umm ... since Linux accounts (at a guess) for 75% of Perl usauge, thats
quite an 'afterthought'. My guess is they see ActiveState Perl as taking
over the world and these tools are simply there to help get it to that
position. 

  I've been through all the frustration I can cope with trying to get
  various CPAN modules to install with Activestate Perl under windows,
  waiting for the 'coming real soon' PPM version only to discover it was
  still not the latest release etc etc. (thinks back to DBI::Proxy under
  windows ..)  I have no intention of extending that experience to Unix :)
 
 Mr Szemeti it seems we have met here before ;)

ahh yes ... :)

 I can't see it taking off that much in the Nix world anyway, for some
 reason IDE's always seem unwelcome (He adds writing this in vi and going
 back to xemacs to code ;))

you can write code in emacs? ... I always thought it was just a news
client ! ( or was it a graphics package .. I forget :)

umm .. sorta. Some IDE's are well liked, Kdevelop for C++ comes to mind,
(which uses gcc ... )

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Struan Donald

* at 18/04 11:58 +0100 Robin Szemeti said:
 On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:
 
  IMHO the Linux port is an afterthought, most of the effort seems to have
  been focused on the Windows side, the integration with Visual Studio
  springs to mind.
 
 umm ... since Linux accounts (at a guess) for 75% of Perl usauge, thats
 quite an 'afterthought'. My guess is they see ActiveState Perl as taking
 over the world and these tools are simply there to help get it to that
 position. 

i do love the sound of figures being plucked from thin air.

struan



RE: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Jonathan Peterson


 umm ... since Linux accounts (at a guess) for 75% of Perl
 usauge, thats
 quite an 'afterthought'. My guess is they see ActiveState
 Perl as taking
 over the world and these tools are simply there to help get it to that
 position.

I think it's more than Windows accounts for 75% of the IDE market, rather
than the Perl market...

Anyway, I thought all this stuff about non-standard kinds of Win32 Perl was
sorted out years ago. Activestate Perl is the same as anyone else's Perl,
shurely? All the brain ache surrounding PPM and CPAN modules and XS is not
strictly perl related is it? I mean how the hell do you install CPAN packges
on EPOC perl or Mac Perl or any other platform that doesn't smell of Unix?

I've I'm wrong and Activestate Perl is full of unreleased modifications to
Perl itself or the core libs I'd like to know if it...





RE: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Paul Mison

On 18/04/2001 at 15:58 +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
I mean how the hell do you install CPAN packges on EPOC perl or
Mac Perl or any other platform that doesn't smell of Unix?

On MacPerl, non-XS modules install fine using Chris Nandor's CPAN-mac.
XS modules are, erm, tricky, and usually you wait for someone who can
deal with MPW and who needs them to do the port, although it is
possible to do it if you know enough Mac-oriented C programming.

Apparently it's all changing with MacPerl 5.6.1 which is much closer to
Perl 5.6.1, as p5p people may be noticing.

OS X just uses CPAN like any other *nix, more or less.

--
:: paul
:: becoming the Mac OS 9 recidivist on yet another list





Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:58:20PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:

 Anyway, I thought all this stuff about non-standard kinds of Win32 Perl was
 sorted out years ago. Activestate Perl is the same as anyone else's Perl,
 shurely?

It's more because I have a nicely working perl installation right here,
which sits happily in my system's package management system, and I'm not
going to mess with it without a *really* good reason.  I also refuse to
let myself be led down a route which may restrict my ability to upgrade
easily in the future.  I just did 'sudo rpm -Uvh perl*.rpm' and went from
5.6.0 to 5.6.1, with not a single problem.  I doubt it'll be that easy
with Activestate and I don't want to find out the hard way that it isn't.
They *must* work with any old perl distro (of the right version, of course)
or even one that $user has compiled from sources, if they are to be taken
seriously.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Rip, Mix, Burn, unless you're using our latest and greatest
 operating system which we couldn't be arsed to complete

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Dean

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:58:00AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 umm ... since Linux accounts (at a guess) for 75% of Perl usauge, thats
 quite an 'afterthought'. My guess is they see ActiveState Perl as taking
 over the world and these tools are simply there to help get it to that
 position.

And what percentage of that 75% are likely to buy an ide? Windows is a
better target market for things like this, the need is there but the
competition is not. Activestate is in a position of power in the Windows
world, they have the Windows Perl market pretty much wrapped up and by the
time someone else really tries to get into the race they'll find its
already over. I know that their are alternatives like the Indigo and 
Siemens distros but neither are really commercial.

Also in your guess at 75% you've hit a very important point. 25% of the
Windows market is a lot bigger than 75% of the Linux market, ActiveState is
a business and at the end of the day they have a much bigger (I assume ;))
market in the hordes of IDEless Windows users. And if we can sway some of
the other 75% of Windows users across to the dark side by getting Perl
associated with household products like Visual Studio then the more the
merrier ;)

 you can write code in emacs?

Apparently if you install enough major modes you can even edit text in
it... ;)
 
 umm .. sorta. Some IDE's are well liked, Kdevelop for C++ comes to mind,
 (which uses gcc ... )

I've been using this for C coding recently and its not too bad. It has a
couple of nice tricks though like clicking on the compile errors and being
taken to the line. Kdevelop follows the very good idea of not trying to
replace the compiler. DDD is another app that does this well but its just
another example that GUI's are not as popular as the command lines tools.
Yet.

Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Barbie

From: "Jonathan Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Anyway, I thought all this stuff about non-standard kinds of Win32 Perl
was
 sorted out years ago. Activestate Perl is the same as anyone else's Perl,
 shurely? All the brain ache surrounding PPM and CPAN modules and XS is not
 strictly perl related is it? I mean how the hell do you install CPAN
packges
 on EPOC perl or Mac Perl or any other platform that doesn't smell of Unix?

 I've I'm wrong and Activestate Perl is full of unreleased modifications to
 Perl itself or the core libs I'd like to know if it...

Unfortunately there is a difference between PPM and CPAN modules, which is
why you need to check whether the module you require is in the ActiveState
repository or the Package List. If you want anything extra curricular (e.g.
Template Toolkit) you'll need nmake and hope it works under windows from
CPAN.

The good thing about PPM is that it does all the installation for you. the
bad thing is that it doesn't run any tests. Then again seeing as they've
done the job of porting the package you'd hope it was tested at their end.
At least that's what _I'm_ hoping.

Barbie.





Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:26:42PM +0100, Dean wrote:
 I've been using this for C coding recently and its not too bad. It has a
 couple of nice tricks though like clicking on the compile errors and being
 taken to the line. 

Emacs has been able to do this for probably 10 years or more.  I think
even vim can do it now, too.

Emacs *is* an IDE.  It just doesn't look like all the other ones.

-Dom (oops, was that inflammatory?)



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Dean

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:58:20PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
 I think it's more than Windows accounts for 75% of the IDE market, rather
 than the Perl market...
 
 Anyway, I thought all this stuff about non-standard kinds of Win32 Perl was
 sorted out years ago. Activestate Perl is the same as anyone else's Perl,
 shurely? All the brain ache surrounding PPM and CPAN modules and XS is not
 strictly perl related is it? I mean how the hell do you install CPAN packges
 on EPOC perl or Mac Perl or any other platform that doesn't smell of Unix?

Your right, the perls are the same ActiveState are just a lot more aware of
what the OS can do and lacks the ability to do and tries to compensate for
them. If you have a stocked Windows box with nmake, VC++ and a bit of time
you can get CPAN working on it.

ActiveState also comes with some other stuff like the ability to use perl
in place of ASP and stuff like pl2bat. You can compile and use your own
perl just like you could on a Linux box but it just takes a bit more
effort and as the NMS project is showing making things easy is a good
thing. (Right watch Cantrell butcher me ;))

 I've I'm wrong and Activestate Perl is full of unreleased modifications to
 Perl itself 

Ahh yes, through the ActiveState way you can control clippit ;)

Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Dean

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:17:00PM +0100, Paul Mison wrote:
 On MacPerl, non-XS modules install fine using Chris Nandor's CPAN-mac.
 XS modules are, erm, tricky, and usually you wait for someone who can

 deal with MPW and who needs them to do the port, although it is
 possible to do it if you know enough Mac-oriented C programming.

Whats MPW?

 OS X just uses CPAN like any other *nix, more or less.

Does OS X come with GNU tools like GCC and make then?

Dean (Clueless when it comes to macs.)
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Simon Wistow

Dean wrote:

 I've been using [Kdevelop] for C coding recently and its not too bad. It has a
 couple of nice tricks though like clicking on the compile errors and being
 taken to the line. 


Ultraedit does this. It's great and I love it. And it works under Wine.



Win32 perl (was: Komodo)

2001-04-18 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:34:17PM +0100, Dean wrote:
 
 Your right, the perls are the same ActiveState are just a lot more aware of
 what the OS can do and lacks the ability to do and tries to compensate for
 them. If you have a stocked Windows box with nmake, VC++ and a bit of time
 you can get CPAN working on it.

You don't even need to pander to the evil empire. dmake will
work in place of nmake, and mingw32 (ie. egcs) works fine for
building perl and modules.

Last time I did this was a couple of years ago, and it took
a _long_ time to compile perl itself. Maybe they've made it
faster now.

 .robin.

-- 
A man, a plan, a cat, a ham, a yak, a yam, a hat, a canal--Panama!
--Guy Jacobson



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Paul Mison

On 18/04/2001 at 16:36 +0100, Dean wrote:
On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:17:00PM +0100, Paul Mison wrote:
 On MacPerl, non-XS modules install fine using Chris Nandor's CPAN-mac.
 XS modules are, erm, tricky, and usually you wait for someone who can

 deal with MPW and who needs them to do the port, although it is
 possible to do it if you know enough Mac-oriented C programming.

Whats MPW?

Macintosh Programmer's Workshop: in the full version, includes a shell
(yes, on a Mac OS before X!), C and C++ compiler, and various other
shellish things. It's free too. (Free as in beer, anyway.)

http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/

 OS X just uses CPAN like any other *nix, more or less.

Does OS X come with GNU tools like GCC and make then?

Yes, but they're not installed by default. (I can't remember if the
'BSD subsystem' is installed by default either though.) It comes on a
seperate CD within the OS X shrinkwrap box- you also get OS 9 and OS X
base install.

You also get ProjectBuilder IDE.

http://developer.apple.com/tools/projectbuilder/

--
:: paul
:: fairly clueless with Windows these days





Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Robin Houston

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:36:08PM +0100, Dean wrote:
 Whats MPW?

Macintosh Programmers' Workshop. Delicious...

 Does OS X come with GNU tools like GCC and make then?

Yes (on the optional developers CD)

 .robin.

-- 
Are we not drawn onward, we few, drawn onward to new era?



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Dean

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:34:49PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
 Emacs has been able to do this for probably 10 years or more.  I think
 even vim can do it now, too.

Never noticed that! I normally edit my code in emacs and do the compiling
on the command line in another term, never got too comfortable with doing
everything in xemacs.
 
 Emacs *is* an IDE.  It just doesn't look like all the other ones.
I was going to argue about the foot print but i use Visual Studio on
occasion ;)

-Dom (oops, was that inflammatory?)

Nah.
Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Dominic Mitchell

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:47:57PM +0100, Dean wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:34:49PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
  Emacs has been able to do this for probably 10 years or more.  I think
  even vim can do it now, too.
 
 Never noticed that! I normally edit my code in emacs and do the compiling
 on the command line in another term, never got too comfortable with doing
 everything in xemacs.

There's a nice big "compile" button on the toolbar.  When the errors
come up, just hit your middle button on them in the *compile* buffer.
Couldn't be easier.

-Dom



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Philip Newton

Barbie wrote:
 The good thing about PPM is that it does all the installation 
 for you. the bad thing is that it doesn't run any tests. Then
 again seeing as they've done the job of porting the package
 you'd hope it was tested at their end. At least that's what
 _I'm_ hoping.

Yes. The PPM used to be really meagre with builds 5xx (5.005_**) but with
6xx (5.6.*) the situation has improved. I believe they have some kind of
semi-automated way of making PPMs from CPAN modules.

They have stated that they'll only PPM modules (or versions of modules) that
pass their own tests on Windows. I believe the PPM version of Compress::Zlib
or Archive::Tar or some such was lagging behind the CPAN release by a couple
of versions because the newer versions didn't pass their own tests. So if
it's PPMable, it's supposedly been tested by ActiveState (perhaps not by a
person, but at least automatically).

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:58:00AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  umm ... since Linux accounts (at a guess) for 75% of Perl usauge, thats
  quite an 'afterthought'. My guess is they see ActiveState Perl as taking
  over the world and these tools are simply there to help get it to that
  position.
 
 And what percentage of that 75% are likely to buy an ide?



 Also in your guess at 75% you've hit a very important point. 25% of the
 Windows market is a lot bigger than 75% of the Linux market,

your logic is hopelessly flawed. 25% of the windows market is not what
you need as the 'windows market' consists mainly of secrataries and home
users .. 75% of a Linux market (~100% of which use Perl in some way) is
MUCH bigger than 25% of a windows market (0.001% of which would know a
programming langauge if it ran up to them in the street and bit them) I'd
say the programming market is roughly 50% windows/something else, so
whilst windows might have a large user following, its got a relativley
small developer following and thats who you need to play to.

 ActiveState is
 a business and at the end of the day they have a much bigger (I assume ;))
 market in the hordes of IDEless Windows users. And if we can sway some of
 the other 75% of Windows users across to the dark side by getting Perl
 associated with household products like Visual Studio then the more the
 merrier ;)

here I agree totally .. if it gets windows point and click programmers
using perl it gets my 100% support.

if it tries to make me use some weirdo Perl build on linux that is not
compatible with various other things then it can go boil its head.

 
  you can write code in emacs?
 
 Apparently if you install enough major modes you can even edit text in
 it... ;)

stop winding me up .. everyone knows emacs is a firewall configuration
tool with some other bits bolted on ...  dont you just press C-x C-alt-b
C-shift-alt-z alt-y pageup-alt-escape-shift-~ to make it insert a space
or somesuch?

  umm .. sorta. Some IDE's are well liked, Kdevelop for C++ comes to mind,
  (which uses gcc ... )
 
 I've been using this for C coding recently and its not too bad. It has a
 couple of nice tricks though like clicking on the compile errors and being
 taken to the line. Kdevelop follows the very good idea of not trying to
 replace the compiler. DDD is another app that does this well but its just
 another example that GUI's are not as popular as the command lines tools.
 Yet.

I think you'll find that where a tool has a decent UI and helps rather
than hinders it will become accepted. if its more trouble than NOT having
it then, strangely, it will bomb out like a thing that bombs out a lot.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:58:00AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 umm ... since Linux accounts (at a guess) for 75% of Perl usauge, thats
 quite an 'afterthought'. 

That's irrelevant. ActiveState's business is 90% Windows, so they do Windows
first.

-- 
ZenHam heh, yeah, but Aretha could be reading out /etc/services and
kick just so much ass :)



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread David H. Adler

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 07:12:27PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 
 stop winding me up .. everyone knows emacs is a firewall configuration
 tool with some other bits bolted on ...  dont you just press C-x C-alt-b
 C-shift-alt-z alt-y pageup-alt-escape-shift-~ to make it insert a space
 or somesuch?

You must have an old version.  That's been aliased to the spacebar for
ages now...

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
"I HAVE HAD A SEIZURE"  "I THINK I WIN THEN"
- http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity473.html



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:58:00AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  umm ... since Linux accounts (at a guess) for 75% of Perl usauge, thats
  quite an 'afterthought'. 
 
 That's irrelevant. ActiveState's business is 90% Windows, so they do Windows
 first.

which is why I said somewhere .. something like ' if it requires
activestate perl  then thats fine for windows, but its dead in the water
for linux'

I appreciate what AS do for windows, if what htey do gets windows
developers using perl then they have my 100% support.  I can not see
however a place in linux for any perl IDE that doesnt use a standard perl
install. simple as that.

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:23:34PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 I can not see however a place in linux for any perl IDE that doesnt use a
 standard perl install. simple as that.

Then don't buy one. Those who do, will. Isn't the free market great?

-- 
Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is his twin brother.
- Kahlil Gibran



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:23:34PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  I can not see however a place in linux for any perl IDE that doesnt use a
  standard perl install. simple as that.
 
 Then don't buy one. Those who do, will. Isn't the free market great?

but I should also add that I see anyhting which looks like splintering
the nice world of One Big [*nix] Perl [1] into several different
incompatible versions a Bad Thing and will make smelly noises about it
and blow raspberries whenever I see it :)

[1] well alright theres 4 (no .. really that is still in use in places )
and 5.005 and 5.6.x and macperl .. but apart from that

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Simon Cozens

On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:34:30PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
 but I should also add that I see anyhting which looks like splintering
 the nice world of One Big [*nix] Perl [1] into several different
 incompatible

AS Perl on Unix isn't incompatible.

-- 
dngor Every little bit of seaweed kelps.



Re: Komodo

2001-04-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, you wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:34:30PM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote:
  but I should also add that I see anyhting which looks like splintering
  the nice world of One Big [*nix] Perl [1] into several different
  incompatible
 
 AS Perl on Unix isn't incompatible.

can't honestly say that I've tried it ..  you have the better of me
there. My only experience with AS Perl is under windows and it was not
that great. It was shed loads better than no Perl at all though, so
thanks to em for that.

in the *nix variant can you load stuff from CPAN straight in ?

my understanding was that you had to wait for some strange process to
occur and a .ppm file to appear or you couldn't load the stuff up. .. but
I could be worng. 

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Komodo

2001-04-17 Thread Dean

I just downloaded and had a play with the release version 1.0 of Komodo for
Windows (The Linux one is still in the RC phase) and i have to say that I'm
impressed.

I know that a lot of the list are devoted to using text editors rather than
these 'new fangled' IDE's :) but i reckon this is worth a play with for three
main reasons:

1) The RX toolkit
2) Code folding
3) Reference Contents

The RX toolkit is a nice little box you can paste a regex into and
underneath you paste a string. It then shows what matches what and the
contents of the capturing parameters.

The code folding is something i was looking for a while ago and while the
beta of vim 6.0 has some support for folding subroutines (But it loses
state a lot...) Komodo lets you fold pretty much anything from subroutines
to if statements.

The last bit is something that i like as i can see it saving me adding and
removing Data::Dumper statements while debugging, I've only been playing
with this this afternoon but it seems to work as I'd expect and its nice to
have it handy without adding statements.

As a last point it even makes an attempt to guess at the keyword you were
typing when you hit ctrl-space. And it gets it right quiet often.

I know that you can do the three things i mentioned above with other
techniques but this puts them closer with less hoop jumping to use them on
a day to day basis.

Has anyone got an views on it or the Linux version?
Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon



Re: Komodo

2001-04-17 Thread Simon Cozens

On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 05:57:17PM +0100, Dean wrote:
 Has anyone got an views on it or the Linux version?

The Linux version is broken; it won't install, claiming you need a new
license.

brev lathos: I just talked to the Komodo lead. He suggests a) don't evaluate
Komodo on the Linux version, yet. b) we changed licnese schemes recently. If
absolutely necessary we can send you a new license.

-- 
BEWARE!  People acting under the influence of human nature.



Re: Komodo

2001-04-17 Thread Dean

On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 06:23:28PM +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 05:57:17PM +0100, Dean wrote:
  Has anyone got an views on it or the Linux version?
 
 The Linux version is broken; it won't install, claiming you need a new
 license.

Gah! I just downloaded this and tried to install, at least i know it wasn't
me now ;)

 Komodo on the Linux version, yet. b) we changed licnese schemes recently. If
 absolutely necessary we can send you a new license.

I'm semi patient :)

Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon



Re: Komodo

2001-04-17 Thread David Cantrell

On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 05:57:17PM +0100, Dean wrote:
 I just downloaded and had a play with the release version 1.0 of Komodo for
 Windows (The Linux one is still in the RC phase) and i have to say that I'm
 impressed.
 
 Has anyone got an views on it or the Linux version?

I haven't looked at it, but will.  However, it does look from the web pages
as if it requires me to download Activestate's distribution of perl.  This
is a Bad Thing.  If it turns out that I can use my existing 5.6, then I'll
give it a go, but if I have to fuck around, I won't bother.

Methinks Activestate are too much in the Windows world, and need to learn
about "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Rip, Mix, Burn, unless you're using our latest and greatest
 operating system which we couldn't be arsed to complete

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **



Re: Komodo

2001-04-17 Thread Simon Cozens

On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:12:32PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
 Methinks Activestate are too much in the Windows world

I note that the Linux distribution of Kodomo contained complete distributions
of Mozilla, Perl and Python.

-- 
The sky already fell.  Now what?  -- Steven Wright



Re: Komodo

2001-04-17 Thread David Cantrell

On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:17:37PM +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:12:32PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:

  Methinks Activestate are too much in the Windows world
 
 I note that the Linux distribution of Kodomo contained complete distributions
 of Mozilla, Perl and Python.

/me cancels the download, suggests Activestate acquire some Clue

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Rip, Mix, Burn, unless you're using our latest and greatest
 operating system which we couldn't be arsed to complete

** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important **



Re: Komodo

2001-04-17 Thread Dean

On Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:12:32PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote:
  Has anyone got an views on it or the Linux version?
 
 I haven't looked at it, but will.  However, it does look from the web pages
 as if it requires me to download Activestate's distribution of perl.  This
 is a Bad Thing.  If it turns out that I can use my existing 5.6, then I'll
 give it a go, but if I have to fuck around, I won't bother.

Didn't notice that and since it won't install without a license i won't be
evaling it yet and can't confirm if it screws over existing installs.
 
 Methinks Activestate are too much in the Windows world, and need to learn
 about "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Someone needs to be in the Windows world and I'd rather them worry about it
than me ;)

Rip, Mix, Burn, unless you're using our latest and greatest
operating system which we couldn't be arsed to complete

I like this sig.

Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon